Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Holeypaladin]

For your Rhino idea, those of us who were productive enough to actually discuss rebalancing iron skin came up with an interesting idea.

 

Iron skin is overpowered at low levels, underpowered at high levels.  We discussed making iron skin's health equal a (percentage, possible 100%) sum of his max shields + max health.  This means that low level Rhinos won't ease through the starmap with 1200 iron skin health when their shields and health are only 450 and 300.

 

Additionally, we wanted to apply armor-based DR like you have suggested, but increase the base armor of Rhino and Frost to 300 (since armor was heavily nerfed awhile back).  He would no longer need the extra benefit from having taken damage.

[taiiat]

 Please learn how to play Mesa and than come up with suggestions.

like what?

only use a Soma Prime?

 

 

why not make the Ability less pigeonholing, and be useful for all kinds of Weapons.

here's a good idea. why not have the Ability be more useful, so that, idunno, her signature Weapon Type, the freaking Vasto, gets a good bonus from that Ability.

 

 

unless you're idea of fun is hoping that every Ability happens to pair best with the Weapon you happen to be using anyways, just by pure luck.

tying Abilities to certain Weapons has always blown up in our faces. every Ability that currently affects or is affected by Weapons, there's always a small few that are hundreds of times better than any other choice, therefore nullifying the idea of choosing this or that to to compliment your Abilities.

[Aumaan]

I started thinking about Nekros again after the recent dev stream and came up with the idea to make Shadows of the Dead an almost self-sustaining power.  The most obvious change is making it so enemies killed by the Shadows are added to the next Shadow queue but some extra things that could possibly be added; Give the shadows very minor life steal so they can keep themselves going for the whole duration. Also, make it so every kill a shadow gets restores a second or so of the duration of the skill.  Do this and you've got an almost perpetual army of ghosts (they'll still die from damage or simply not kill fast enough to keep it up indefinitely) for Nekros to hide behind and use his other skills with impunity.  Make the lifesteal and duration restore affected by power strength (the duration restore should probably top out at like 2 seconds if you maximize power strength) and it forces you to not minmix for desecrate (if they even keep it) if you want to have an almost immortal army.



It's also good they're going to give the Shadows a much needed health/power buff but like you said, unless the AI gets fixed it won't mean much.  

 

On the topic of the health/power buff though another idea I'd thought of would be allowing Nekros (and any current shadows) to "supercharge" his next shadows by killing enemies after filling up the soul queue.  Basically, every enemy killed after the queue maxes out increases the to-be-summoned shadows stats/level by a small percentage (possibly topping out at 50% or 100% depending no balance issues). This would let Nekros decide whether he needs basic but slightly buffed Ult now or whether the group can wait and get a supercharged Ult later.  An alternative would be to also have an enemy "preference hierarchy" or something. Basically, after the queue fills up when you kill an enemy it's checked against the enemies currently in the queue, if it's of a higher priority (the stronger the unit type the higher the priority, the level doesn't mean anything) it'll replace one of the lower priority targets in the queue instead of supercharging. That way you can slowly build up to a super powered group of only heavy units (it would probably take a long time though).  That's probably too complicated of a mechanic to deal with though, just thought I'd toss the idea out.

 

 

Both of these are ideas that popped in my head as I was falling asleep last night and I figured I might as well toss them in the big thread of warframe feedback.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Aumaan

[BlueSabre]

Hello Archwizard, its been a while since i've reviewed your thread and i noticed that you updated the suggestions for Nekros. I've always seen nekros as a scavenger, which is why i disagreed with many of the changes you proposed in the past, but I think that these new ones are more in line with his theme and are more likley to be implemented.

 

First off soul rip as you call it sounds amazing, but i have a suggestion that will make your idea come to life without the devs making alot of changes to the skill. First keep the name soul punch, make it so that it does exactly as you described, but instead of creating an after image just punch the dudes soul out making them incapable of doing anything while their soul flies around, instead of knocking them down. This means that it wont ragdoll enemies anymore but it should give you and anyone else time to focus you attack on them, line up those head shot. As for the secondary effect, idk thats up in the air, but the soul that you just displaced could hit other enemies knocking their souls out as well.

 

On the pve side of things i think that simply making terrify recastable would fix its issues, similar to nyx's chaos.

 

I'm not gonna touch desecrate,*cough* scavenger *cough*.

 

As for shadows of the dead, would they work exactly like mirage's holograms? As it stands, i think that this ability has offensive qualities and defensive qualities. With the ability to create minions their damage supplements your own, but in situtations where this damage is next to useless or lackluster you still have the minions to act as meat shields. Honestly my biggest concern for the hologram change is bombards, stray projectiles have claimed the lives of many a tenno, but i can see its benefits. As for the function of the skill itself, I always thought it would be neat if this was a duration based aoe ability that ressurected any enemy slain within its radius, quick example you kill a guy he falls down then gets back up again only this time fighting for you.

 

I can see that you're very invested in this particular warframe, tell me what you think.

 

 

[nekrojiji]

like what?

only use a Soma Prime?

why not make the Ability less pigeonholing, and be useful for all kinds of Weapons.

here's a good idea. why not have the Ability be more useful, so that, idunno, her signature Weapon Type, the freaking Vasto, gets a good bonus from that Ability.

unless you're idea of fun is hoping that every Ability happens to pair best with the Weapon you happen to be using anyways, just by pure luck.

tying Abilities to certain Weapons has always blown up in our faces. every Ability that currently affects or is affected by Weapons, there's always a small few that are hundreds of times better than any other choice, therefore nullifying the idea of choosing this or that to to compliment your Abilities.

1 I don't like Soma Prime... it's too weak. Mesa's 1st goes best with 100% crit weapons(which Soma is not).

2 I don't like Vasto... so going on your asumption I would be an idiot for playing Mesa without Vasto.

Edited January 25, 2015 by nekrojiji

[taiiat]

1 I don't like Soma Prime... it's too weak. Mesa's 1st goes best with 100% crit weapons(which Soma is not).

2 I don't like Vasto... so going on your asumption I would be an idiot for playing Mesa without Vasto.

you don't need to like Soma Prime, but it will still get the biggest Damage Numbers from the ability. that massive Crit Multiplier.

not Critting on a Weakpoint would be pretty unlucky anyways.

 

no, it just makes no sense that Crit reliant Weapons are the only ones that actually get any significant benefit from Ballistic Battery, when Vasto is the signature Weapon the Warframe is featured with.

Ballistic Battery should be useful no matter what Weapons you have with you.

 

which is why having it independant of Weapons entirely is the best option.

there's no good reason why the Ability should only be usable with five of all of the Weapons in the game. two of them are the same gun.

[ShardsSuperior]

Is there no frame that you're satisfied with?

[zoboso]

what if the new part of ember's thid power became contracted instead of expanded to trap enemies in the ring?

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

- Sonar can be recast to reroll the positions of current weakspots. (This will reset additional weakspots created by the augment.)

 

Hell no.  The ONLY reason you'd want to reset a sonar in the first place is because it isn't on the single weak point of some poorly designed stage boss.  This is completely useless for the only thing you'd want to use it for.  If it rerolled all of the weak spots, that would be great (yes I know, it might be processing intensive).  However, the best option for Sonar is that it just adds another set of weak spots.  This doesn't make it actively BAD to recast it, and still lets you cast around for that one weakpoint on freaking vay hek or lephantis.  (Lephantis is actually well designed though.  Vay Hek is pure stupid fake difficulty with a totally undodgeable continuous fire 100% magnetic proc.  Effectively, it's a frame check, if you're not rhino or trinity, you're fu**ed.)

 

Edit:  The range limitation on hek's magnetic beam would matter... if there was actually a reliable tell, instead of him often just yanking it out in the middle of spouting propaganda with no warning.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[nekrojiji]

you don't need to like Soma Prime, but it will still get the biggest Damage Numbers from the ability. that massive Crit Multiplier.

not Critting on a Weakpoint would be pretty unlucky anyways.

yes ...but there's a chance you don't crit with Soma.

[RealPandemonium]

yes ...but there's a chance you don't crit with Soma.

The average headshot DPS on Soma is the highest of all weapons except maybe the [good] bows; it doesn't matter if you sometimes don't crit because it averages out in the end, especially with as high a fire rate and clip size as it has.  Having a less than 100% crit rate on something like a bow or sniper rifle is an issue because every shot has to count due to the small fire rate/clipsize but on a full auto weapon with a large clip the inconsistency is practically irrelevant.  

Edited January 26, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[taiiat]

yes ...but there's a chance you don't crit with Soma.

doesn't really matter, you can just use the Ability again. having it not Crit on the Weakpoint twice would be lightning hitting you twice.

 

and the point is the highest Crit Multiplier in the game. imagine that, using your Soma Prime that's specifically tuned for Ballistic Battery. you've just added 1600 Damage to it's base Damage, plus what it already had.

 

 

congratulations, you have a pigeonholing Ability.

[Archwizard]

I reverted my bandaid suggestion for Fire Blast in the OP. The core of this thread is essentially to cut the BS and point out where a total rework is necessary, where bandaid fixes just add unnecessary complications.

[Elydir]

what if the new part of ember's thid power became contracted instead of expanded to trap enemies in the ring?

 

Would only work if it could keep enemies in. At any rate, why would you want to be trapped with a bunch of enemies on Ember?

[RealPandemonium]

Would only work if it could keep enemies in. At any rate, why would you want to be trapped with a bunch of enemies on Ember?

If it set them on fire they would flail and be unable to hurt her, so that wouldn't be an issue.  If anything they would become meatshields that block enemy bullets for her while burning and also being ripe for AOE of all kinds.  

[taiiat]

If it set them on fire they would flail and be unable to hurt her, so that wouldn't be an issue.  If anything they would become meatshields that block enemy bullets for her while burning and also being ripe for AOE of all kinds.  

would work, if Fire Status was made more reliable so that you didn't have to worry about some Enemies being visually on fire, but still walking towards you, and still shooting you.

 

my favorite is Ancients flailing around on fire, not moving their legs, sliding towards you still, and then they whipfist knock you down when they get to you, while still flailing on Fire.

[RealPandemonium]

would work, if Fire Status was made more reliable so that you didn't have to worry about some Enemies being visually on fire, but still walking towards you, and still shooting you.

 

my favorite is Ancients flailing around on fire, not moving their legs, sliding towards you still, and then they whipfist knock you down when they get to you, while still flailing on Fire.

Enemies follow the same rules as players: you when it comes to staggers and knockdowns: certain animations override them.  In the case of the Ancients it's just buggy.  

[PsychoticMarik]

Nekros is my favorite frame, both in design and in concept, so I'd like to toss in my 2 cents.

 

In general I like everything you suggested. Nekros as he is now is a dissapointment to put it lightly, and the OP's suggested changes would certainly make him a much better, and much more enjoyable character.

 

There a few things I'd like to suggest tho.

Your changes to soul punch, and replaced desecrate are fantastic ideas.

 

Your suggestion to Terrify is something I'd accept, but my own take on it would be to simply change it so that it can be recast, and to make enemies cower instead of run. Alternatively they could run slowly like the Kubrow's version of terrify. Add these to the upcoming changes of removing the limit of enemies it affects and reducing its range a bit and I think this skill is basically perfect.

 

As for Shadows of the dead I generally agree with just about any of the suggested buffs many have stated.

Things like AI improvements, changing the mechanics of the soul cache, allowing them to still block enemies and enemy bullets, but not allies or allied bullets, recasting to pull them all back to you, and giving the synergy to other abilities in Nekro's kit are all great.

 

One change for me is generally missing in peoples suggestions however, and thats removing the duration on the shadows.

I firmly believe they should exist until they are killed, and that you can extend there life with his other abilities, and/or that they can be affected by health orbs. Nekros having minions up and on the field at nearly all times if he so desires is what should be his defining trait imo, and this would give him the lone role of being the games only minion master. Creating a truely unique playstyle within warframe, and being one of the few games that provides a satisfying experience to those of us who want to control minions. I dont think this is too much to ask for, and in fact I think not delivering on this is truely wasted potential.

 

Nekros could provide a very different and interesting(see niche)way to play the game that alot of Devs are shy about exploring, but I'm honestly not holding my breath on seeing DE do anything with it.

[MotherofHermes]

Dear archwizard. 

have u seen the dev posts? It looks like all of your dreams may be coming true.

 

soul punch can be cast without a horrible annimation.

terrify can be recast. 

descrate may be removed (something big is happening to it they won't tell us)

shadows are being buffed and are currently in testing to be walked through.

 

it's a great day (tomorrow) to be a necromancer. 

[BarneyD2]

Perhaps for Nekros, but Scott's comment on Ember being "in a good position" is very worrying and I can only hope that he rethinks his statement. There's plenty of feedback on the forums and I can't help like some (most) of it is being pushed under the rug.

[Noble_Cactus]

Is there no frame that you're satisfied with?

 

He seems to be fine with Oberon.

 

Personally I'm not satisfied with any of the Frames in this game, though that's also because I don't like the design of the game in general and how each Frame fits into that structure (I almost said framework) than just them having half-baked skills.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Noble_Cactus

[Archwizard]

Dear archwizard. 

have u seen the dev posts? It looks like all of your dreams may be coming true.

 

soul punch can be cast without a horrible annimation.

terrify can be recast. 

descrate may be removed (something big is happening to it they won't tell us)

shadows are being buffed and are currently in testing to be walked through.

 

it's a great day (tomorrow) to be a necromancer. 

 

Don't get your hopes up.

[ShardsSuperior]

He seems to be fine with Oberon.

 

Personally I'm not satisfied with any of the Frames in this game, though that's also because I don't like the design of the game in general and how each Frame fits into that structure (I almost said framework) than just them having half-baked skills.

Nope. Oberon has his own change wishlist.

 

I feel like this is a problem with the framework structure, and not the game, then. I will agree that a lot of these changes are good for the frames. In fact, I completely agree with every QoL change and tweaks to increase the basic functionality of the skill. But a lot of these exceed Quality of Life and actively recreate frames.

 

To me, those changes (meaning completely reworks on skills, etc) belong in Fan Concepts, not Warframes & Abilities Feedback.

[Archwizard]

Is there no frame that you're satisfied with?

 

There's a fine line between "dissatisfied" and "thinking it could be better".

 

If you look at it from that angle, most frames in the OP have minor touch-ups - Volt and Nova, for instance, are almost perfect (bar the same issues every frame has), coming from someone who has them in his top 3 played. Other frames get more serious not because I want them to play a certain way, but because their toolkits rely too much on flat values of damage and survival, like Ember and Zephyr and Excalibur, specific skills like Crush and Ice Wave, and could build up to something with more payoff to both the player and the party.

 

And then there's Desecrate. For once I won't quote myself on it -

 

You think I play video games to work? Who wants to come home from work to work? Least of all in a video game. If I'm coming home from work to work again I'm damn well getting paid for it.

 

If your talking about a fun concept of working towards something thats another story, but desecrate just isnt that. Its boring, and flat out horrible design that I frankly cant believe got into the game. Perhaps even worse is that its still part of the game. It honestly gives me some reason to be concerned about the future of the game when such horrible excuses for mechanics and abilities are put in.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Archwizard

[sappinmahsentry]

I still can't believe how this guy has no problem with Volt's ult, it's literally almost useless outside of a few areas in the void or corpus ships, the length of the stun needs to be dependant on how many enemies (at five enemies you get a 2x as long stun, at 10 you get 3x as long, at 15 you get 4x as long, and so on), and not electrical appliances, are in the area.

Edited January 29, 2015 by sappinmahsentry