Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

If they could actually balance things that way it would solve a lot of problems... but I have no idea how that would even work, making everything scale with everything in both directions. Even for just Mag's kit it would be a tricky thing.

It shoulr at the very least be fixed to do more damage with higher duration, not the other way around... I mean, without Miasma's weird scaling there would be no reason to not build duration because her entire 1-3 kit scales with it. Band-aid? Yep. Better band-aid than just fixing the math bug and leaving it? Probably.

(it was just grumbling out loud, again, not directed towards anyone in particular)

consider this as an example:

Shield Polarize:

reduces Enemy Shields, only the biggest Shield source in Range explodes(it's a lot harder to button mash nuke when everything on the map doesn't die, only things that were nearby the biggest Shield do). since it would be a single Explosion, the Range of it would go up some to stay fair.

Shield Explosion divides all Damage by number of Targets in Range of the Explosion.

keeps Enemy Shields from starting to Regen by any means (Bosses would probably be excluded i guess...) for N seconds.

provides either active Shield Regen (no Shield Recharge Delay, recharges at N per second at all times + base Recharge) or when you have Shields, makes your Shields take N% less Damage (maybe even invulnerable, note only applies to Shields, Toxin or Slash Status could still Damage you during that time) for 5 seconds or so. must have Shields at the time for this to work.

Allies have Shields restored N% of MAX. (not a super high amount, don't want Allies getting more immediate benefit than Mag. pehaps 20-25% of max)

positive Power Strength increases the Shield Reduction and therefore the Explosion Damage, percentage of max Ally Shields restored(maybe allowing Overshields?), and also increases the active Shield Regen / Damage Reduction.

i'm not sure low Power Strength doing anything on this Ability in particular due to the penalties incurred from high Power Strength on this Ability. however, low Power Strength could be woven in a very interesting way into the Shield Regen, will explain in Duration)

positive Power Range increases the Range that the Polarize Explosion hits, the targeting Range for Enemies it chooses from.

negative Power Range reduces the Range that the Polarize Explosion hits, and the Targeting Range for Enemies it chooses from.

not that since the Damage applied is divided equally between all Enemies in Range of the largest Shield source, reducing the Range technically also increases the Damage, but affects less Enemies. a shorter Range also means you can force certain Enemies to create Explosions, as it only checks Enemies within Range for the highest Shield source.

Positive Power Duration increases how long Enemy Shields are kept from increasing through any means, how long the Shield Regen lasts / how long the Damage Reduction lasts.

negative Power Duration does the opposite.

to explain the negative Power Strength, active Shield Regen can instead of being N amount for Y time, be N amount divided by Y time, with some more threads to it.

so higher Power Strength shortens Duration, but lower Power Strength increases Duration. more in a shorter time, less in a longer time. Power Duration affects just the Duration, allowing to increase or decrease the time of the Effect further. so high Power Strength and low Duration would be a big clump of Shields, restoring it basically all at once, but low Power Strength and high Duration would make it like having your Shields Recharging at all times, even through being hit.

and you could go somewhere in between, like having high-ish Power Strengh and high-ish Duration, making for a fast Recharge over a good length.

i think that covers the concept, where positive and negative of each stat are both useful, just serve different Playstyles.

clearly this gets more complicated when you think about all 4 Abilities, as specific numbers must be adjusted to keep things from being not useful or too useful relative to the rest of the Ability Set.

- - - - -

not increasing Damage with -Duration is certainly important. total Damage divided by Ticks then is i agree, somewhat problematic.

however, if every Tick applied a, say, 1.1 second (want a little bit of overlap to make sure Enemies can't like, fire a single shot between the Ticks) version of the Stun that Miasma applies now, then Duration would add more Ticks to stun longer.

so short Duration would pile the Damage into a single Tick, but long Duration would focus on CC, and no so much the Damage, but still doing the same amount of Damage, just over a long period.

that's absolutely not a 'job done' situation then, that's just 'good enough for now', basically.

Edited July 29, 2015 by taiiat

[CrogenitorSeims]

that's literally what Miasma already does.

1500 1875 Corrosive divided by a standard of 4 5 Ticks. Edit:(sorry, forgot about the initial Tick!)

less Duration means less Ticks for more Damage. inverse for more Duration.

ofcourse, currently less Duration also increases total Damage, due to awful math bugs that have been there since U7.

you don't create any more playstyle options with that, because IT LITERALLY ALREADY WORKS EXACTLY LIKE THAT.

and the problem is now that there's no point to longer Duration, because it's the same thing as short Duration, just deals Damage slower. (if we ignore the -Duration Damage Increase).

I stand corrected, I didn't realize it already worked that way. It was my understanding that it simply had per-tick damage, not that it was part of a set total damage.

 

My apologies.

Edited July 29, 2015 by CrogenitorSeims

[AlphaHorseman]

Hm. I think I kind of like that idea. Or it could be an accelerating effect that grows larger every tick... lots of ways that could go. I do wonder, though, if the physics optimizations make the game ready for a fully collision-aware Miasma as a potentially very large and complex physical entity.

Oh? What's the premise you are trying to present with this? It sounds interesting.

[FelisImpurrator]

Oh? What's the premise you are trying to present with this? It sounds interesting.

Just that it could be a scaling DoT that deals more damage per tick the longer an enemy stays in consecutively - with the right numbers it wouldn't be OP, because you can't literally have infinite duration, but a solid minute of it would be absolutely devastating compared to, say, twenty seconds. Serious incentive to pump duration to the sky, you know?

 

That said, again, I doubt the physics can handle your Miasma.

[(XBOX)JasonsNightmare]

There are a lot of opinions about HOW each frame should be updated. However, this is easily the best start for DE. This makes sense, and your LImbo suggestion is perfect.

[Elydir]

There are a lot of opinions about HOW each frame should be updated. However, this is easily the best start for DE. This makes sense, and your LImbo suggestion is perfect.

 

I dunno about the Limbo suggestion, Rift Gate sounds really tricky and goes against his kit. It makes him safer outside the rift than in it.

[taiiat]

-snip-

Liimbo isn't safer in a specific Plane, rather he's safer in the opposite plane than his Enemies are.

that can be Meat space, or it can be Rift space.

[AlphaHorseman]

Just that it could be a scaling DoT that deals more damage per tick the longer an enemy stays in consecutively - with the right numbers it wouldn't be OP, because you can't literally have infinite duration, but a solid minute of it would be absolutely devastating compared to, say, twenty seconds. Serious incentive to pump duration to the sky, you know?

 

That said, again, I doubt the physics can handle your Miasma.

A minute is a long time, haha, but it could be interesting. What duration would you consider to be a good duration for the base of Miasma?

[FelisImpurrator]

A minute is a long time, haha, but it could be interesting. What duration would you consider to be a good duration for the base of Miasma?

Honestly, I don't know - I cannot numbers. At all. I know concepts. Mechanics. Not numbers.

[AlphaHorseman]

Honestly, I don't know - I cannot numbers. At all. I know concepts. Mechanics. Not numbers.

Haha, then let's see what the others have to say! I hope it proves to be an interesting concept, at the very least.

[TheBrsrkr]

I don't chime in much on this thread, as only a few frames fit my play style enough for me to play them. Really limits my knowledge, but I can't stand squishiness. Anyway, I looked at Valkyr's work and I'm seeing removing the increased stun time from Prolonged Paralysis. Why is that?

[taiiat]

then let's see what the others have to say!

15-20 seconds is a very reasonable range. either don't start counting until a minimum initial time, or more Duration to account for spreading time if it's significant.

[Elydir]

I looked at Valkyr's work and I'm seeing removing the increased stun time from Prolonged Paralysis. Why is that?

 

If you look above that you'll see that Paralysis stun time is doubled baseline.

[Archwizard]

Thoughts on Frost so far:

- Ice Wave, Snow Globe and Avalanche are great offensive tools now.

- Freeze could still use work; missing a target and hitting a wall (the most common scenario at range) does nothing, the radial cold proc still feels obsoleted by Ice Wave and the freeze is obsoleted by Avalanche. The ice patches only seem to occur if you aim at the floor.

 

Considerations:

- Freeze creates an icy fog patch regardless of where it hits.

- Ice Wave Impedance changed to ("Ice Slick" or "Ice Rink"): Enemies who walk over the affected area have a chance to receive knockdown, while allies have a boost to slide speed.

 

the last time i came up with numbers for it i believe i wanted 50% Corrosive, 20% Toxin, 20% Viral, and 10% Gas.

 

Not sure I'm a fan of Miasma using multiple damage types; it would be almost fine as-is if the effect just had a higher status chance and didn't pull extra damage out of the first tick. Yes, being able to apply 4 statuses with one button sounds great on paper, but if her other three abilities only contributions are attempts to do just that, her ultimate just obsoletes them. You change Miasma, but not the P4TW aspect.

 

If you look above that you'll see that Paralysis stun time is doubled baseline.

 

Might have to just mark that as "increased", since Prolonged Paralysis triples the stun time.

Or just reduce the time on the augment rather than removing it, so you get the same benefit from having the augment but don't need it as much. Of course, this is stun time in seconds, and 50% of it won't sound that impressive of an augment.

[FelisImpurrator]

Got an update for Equinox cooking yet, Arch? Or still no Equinox?

 

My post on the new frame's megathread.

[Archwizard]

Got an update for Equinox cooking yet, Arch? Or still no Equinox?

 

My post on the new frame's megathread.

 

I'm barely two days into the weeklong timer to access her. It'll be a while.

[FelisImpurrator]

I'm barely two days into the weeklong timer to access her. It'll be a while.

Ooooh, dang, the long way. I forgot I rushed them for 150... welp. Hope DE hotfixes the build time down.

[Archwizard]

Hm. I think I kind of like that idea. Or it could be an accelerating effect that grows larger every tick... lots of ways that could go. I do wonder, though, if the physics optimizations make the game ready for a fully collision-aware Miasma as a potentially very large and complex physical entity.

 

Well we do have Molecular Prime and Fire Blast as models for growing effects, and a small handful of marked-area damage skills. The question being the difficulty of mashing the two together, although worst case an effect could do what Miasma already does and apply a DoT effect to targets who make contact with the expanding ring.

 

My issue is that, with a high Duration/Range/status chance, you're potentially marking whole rooms for complete armor removal for a very long period. Granting, that's little different from Molecular Prime as it is now - except for the instant damage.

Really, just making a high Duration effect deal worthwhile damage is particularly terrifying. You have to balance its damage potential to be around the same as other ultimates for the same amount of energy over the intended period, meaning it's either going to be very long but very weak, or (as now) very strong but too short to make real use of the new marked-area.

[TheBrsrkr]

May be a bit off topic, but what do you guys think about moving Ash to drop from Manics instead?

[taiiat]

You have to balance its damage potential to be around the same as other ultimates for the same amount of energy over the intended period, meaning it's either going to be very long but very weak, or (as now) very strong but too short to make real use of the new marked-area.

well, maybe we should all (some of us already have) stop thinking of Warframe Abilities like this is a MOBA.

you have all 4 Abilities available at all times while playing. there is no reason for one Ability to be 'just better' than everything else.

i'm sure this has been talked about here and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times. the fact that for many Warframes, the Ability that happens to have the highest number button tied to it by default being 'just better' than the other ones, is why Players are mashing that button so often generally in the first place. one Ability specifically designed to usurp the rest.

or, all 4 Abilities can be useful. and not artificially buffed or nerfed based on what Ability Slot they're in. just 4 Abilities that are useful. one doesn't immediately trivialize the game, but instead, a Toolbelt that's flexible enough to always be useful.

that's why certain Warframes are in the 'just use it' Meta as it is, because they have one Ability that trivializes Gameplay in general, so you use it constantly because it's easymode.

mashing certain Abilities over and over while doing nothing else will never be resolved until this is resolved. as it's one of the primary legs that creates that problem in the first place.

what do you guys think about moving Ash to drop from Manics instead?

still the same Planet, still the same Mission. so probably the best short term solution that could have been done. you need to Kill those Manics in that Mission anyways, so it's like Lech Kril + Vor dropping Trinity Parts while End of Mission awards Miter and Gremlin stuff.

we don't really have anywhere else to put the Ash parts, so something similar to what happened to Trinity happened then. as long as the Chances to drop an Ash part are reasonable, then i say more power to 'you'.

perhaps someday a more elegant obtainment method will exist, but i don't think this is bad in the meantime.

[Archwizard]

or, all 4 Abilities can be useful. and not artificially buffed or nerfed based on what Ability Slot they're in. just 4 Abilities that are useful. one doesn't immediately trivialize the game, but instead, a Toolbelt that's flexible enough to always be useful.

 

Coming from the person who wanted to make Miasma the all-in-one button for Saryn's kit, that's an odd statement.

 

I completely agree that all 4 abilities should be useful and flexible on their own - otherwise, the player is at a complete loss in the compression of what most MMOs do in three dozen skills down to 4 - but you're trying to ignore the set cost of the ability itself, as well as the buildup to the player obtaining that skill simply because you'll have it at cap anyway.

Why bother having different energy costs? Why bother not having all four abilities at rank 1?

 

The cost and slot does, in fact, matter - it's the degree to which it matters that's the issue. Skills like Smite and Venom are intended to be more efficient for a single-target than Reckoning or Miasma, hence the massive energy cost difference; the issue being that the game itself is set to value skills that can deal the most damage to multiple targets.

Miasma is only, what, half as cost efficient per target as Venom? But Venom requires targeting precision and more time to reach its maximum effectiveness, and doesn't provide the stunning power to get to that point safely. With even one extra target in the mix you lose out on that damage advantage cast-for-cast, and have to spend time building up to it compared to the ease of fire-and-forget Miasma.

[taiiat]

Coming from the person who wanted to make Miasma the all-in-one button for Saryn's kit, that's an odd statement.

Why bother having different energy costs? Why bother not having all four abilities at rank 1?

The cost and slot does, in fact, matter - it's the degree to which it matters that's the issue. Skills like Smite and Venom are intended to be more efficient for a single-target, hence the massive energy cost difference

i want it to have a range of uses, yes. i also want an Ability in Slot 3 that has a range of uses. Molt has a range of uses. Venom has several uses.

all 4 Abilities having many uses.

Energy Cost is based on(or rather, should be) how many things it does and how effectively it does it. Abilities like Venom, Smite, Fireball, Et Cetera, make sense with a lower Energy Cost, because they are useful, but intended to be able to be used pretty much constantly.

while other Abilities with a huge number of things that it does, are more costly.

i didn't choose to 'unlock' Abilities. which is garbage and makes Warframes feel useless while leveling them. to make sure i could fit anything into the Utility slot, yesterday i Polarized Saryn again(goodbye XP record, oh well, not important). like just about any other Warframe. your Abilities are super nerfed until you're Leveled up.

i was Leveling a Weapon at the same time. to help Weapons, normally i'd use Venom to make it easier for the Weapon to Kill. but, since not Leveled up, Venom was basically incapable of applying Viral Status. so basically useless.

repeat the story for every Warframe. this or that Ability is useless until you're Leveled up. does basically nothing.

we shouldn't have done it in the first place. artificially nerfing Abilities is meh. newer Players think every Warframe is terrible then, and veteran Players are bored with being relegated to super low Level Missions / not casting Abilities because they don't do anything useful until Leveled.

i.e. i blame having to 'unlock and level' your Abilities. it might be okay if Abilities didn't gain 50% of their stats on the last level, and were completely useless for the first two levels.

if more weight of the stats was atleast weighted towards the early end, they could be usable. you'd still need to play low Level Missions in order to participate though, and that's rather meh.

already talked about Energy Cost. order however, doesn't matter much. the most important part of the order is what your Slot 1 Ability is. the rest, whatever. if no Ability is an AoE Blast and nothing else, then you don't need to worry about 'oh we have to put this last to keep you from using it to farm XP too soon'.

[Elydir]

So Piflering Swarm got changed. We can kill enemies on the tentacles for the loot now. Are we good to talk about that here or do we not care since its a loot skill?

[(PSN)CptCosmic]

So Piflering Swarm got changed. We can kill enemies on the tentacles for the loot now. Are we good to talk about that here or do we not care since its a loot skill?

 

massive nerf because devs are too lazy to fix the acutal problem.

 

at lower levels tentacles kill eveything instantly. with proper mods tentacles kill everything by themself up to 50+ enemies. before you manage to get off a an aimed shot the target is killed by them.

 

and as soon as tentacles struggle to kill your targets fast aka 50+ enemies (they still get killed though), hydroid going for loot simply starts a new game, just like you always do, because loot quality does not increase with higher level targets. you do not waste time shooting stuff flung by tentacles if you do loot runs.

 

in short, the change does nothing but overall nerf hydroid.

[Archwizard]

So Piflering Swarm got changed. We can kill enemies on the tentacles for the loot now. Are we good to talk about that here or do we not care since its a loot skill?

 

in short, the change does nothing but overall nerf hydroid.

 

Pretty much. Coupled with the reduction of Power Strength, it's a loss.

 

Admittedly I've been avoiding farming runs since the patch (leveling Equinox), so I'm not sure whether or not my previous prediction (that it just forces Hydroid players to tag all enemies with it before a kill) has been taken to heart... but given that players will always lean toward the cheesiest way to grind, I don't doubt it.