Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[DSMatticus]

because anyone that wants to whine about how they liked being able to AFKFarm and trivialize the game even further with Viral Status is showing they don't have anything useful to contribute.

?

 

If viral procs bother you, Banshee must make you foam at the mouth with rage. 5x damage!

[TheBrsrkr]

?

If viral procs bother you, Banshee must make you foam at the mouth with rage. 5x damage!

The old Viral procs made it the objective best stat against all units because they stacked. Any high status weapon could shave down an enemy's health by ridiculous amounts, regardless of, well, anything.

[Volinus7]

Old viral proc has 6 seconds gap between each proc you cannot spam proc multiple times in a row even with 100%stat chance.

HP cut is exponential regression.

You can kill with Viral proc but it takes like 36 seconds or half a minute assuming the target has ultra high armor.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Volinus7

[Archwizard]

Ember P now kills things faster for less energy - and Ember P's overall kit has substantially better CC than Saryn could ever dream of! I said it before the rework and I'll say it again now: yes, miasma needed a nerf, but Saryn's overall kit needs versatility to compensate for that nerf. 

 

And that's a problem with Ember Prime - I have already decried the World on Fire change for giving the user zero reason to ever turn it off.

 

As for Saryn needing versatility and scalability... we can agree there to a certain degree. Saryn has better survivability between her (higher base stats and Regenerative Molt, albeit the push to have her block damage is painfully questionable at best), which is where Ember compensates with CC. As I stated above, having Saryn be able to mitigate damage at all times rather than just when wielding a melee weapon could compensate there, as could having Miasma proc for scalable output.

Theoretically one could go further by having Molt gain the 4 seconds of invulnerability of Snow Globe, Tectonics and future Iron Skin, but the issue there is... Molt has a finite duration where they don't. In theory someone could reduce their duration to below that 4 seconds (something even Snow Globe couldn't do when it was finite), only ever churning out invulnerable Molts.

When it comes to costs... In fairness, her efficiency really only takes a dip if you A) can't spread Spores far enough on your own and B) still use Miasma frequently. I doubt the devs will lower the base costs of her abilities any further (save maybe Molt), although I could see them playing with the combo system for Spores (and maybe Miasma), or perhaps reducing the cost of Miasma by X% based on the number of Spores in play...? Again, having her be able to mitigate damage would allow her to safely drain the benefits of Rage.

 

If viral procs bother you, Banshee must make you foam at the mouth with rage. 5x damage!

 

Your point rather falls flat considering that Sonar requires the player to aim (at least until a few stacks of Resonance get adequately spread).

Edited November 5, 2015 by Archwizard

[Volinus7]

Miasma should proc corrosive on each tick when it is on x3 from viral and toxin.

This will improve scalability and make saryn a proper nuker not just a low level steamroller.

[tnccs215]

I never really played a lot with Saryn. Until now. She actually needs some brains to use.

I do agree she becaem tricky to mod, though. matters not, back into testing!

[DameDameNingen]

Rather than the snowglobe/iron skin treatment, it might be easier to add defensive scaling to molt by just giving it some armour and letting it benefit from defensive mods.

[Archwizard]

Rather than the snowglobe/iron skin treatment, it might be easier to add defensive scaling to molt by just giving it some armour and letting it benefit from defensive mods.

 

Perhaps if it inherited Saryn's Health, Shield and Armor, and Toxic Lash improved her Armor?

[Phyrak]

Hey Arch,

Here are some passive tweaks to add

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/556983-saryn-passive-tweaks-miasma/

Think they're add to the list worthy? :P

[Archwizard]

Additions:

+25% status chance on all weapons [raw]

+status proc's are now 10-25% stronger

+status proc's now do more damage the longer they are on a target - think exponential to keep her strong for late game

Miasma:

Gain 100% damage increase per toxic or toxic based combination status and 50% damage increase for any non toxic or toxic based status.

 

As far as making them "stronger", Saryn already gets increased status duration. Keep in mind that several of the statuses can't actually be any "stronger" except in terms of duration (ie Radiation, Blast), and most of those that can will deal more damage with additional duration.

 

Increased status chance from all sources probably won't happen, simply due to the number of weapons balanced around a low status chance (ie most crit or base damage-oriented automatics).

 

Miasma, I doubt the solution is to give it more stacking, especially since players can't actually see more than one stack of Toxin at a time.

[taiiat]

especially since players can't actually see more than one stack of Toxin at a time.

eh?

i don't follow.

[Archwizard]

eh?

i don't follow.

 

Toxin procs can stack, increasing their damage as more and more attacks deal them out... but they do so separately (hence Phyrak's suggestion that Miasma increase per stack) with set Durations for each stack, rather than merging into one big stack with an infinitely rolling Duration.

 

And your only indicator is the one skull-and-crossbones icon under your target's health bar, rather than say 5 or 15 of them as you churn out more procs via Toxic Lash, so you never know exactly how many stacks you've put on the target, only how much health they're losing at one time. It's the same issue with Corrosive procs, you know they are afflicted, by not how badly since armor is an invisible stat (until it hits 0 and changes the color of the enemy health bar).

 

As Miasma stands right now, you only need the one icon for Toxin, and the one for Viral.

[GhostLacuna]

38 min appollodorus solo range 100% test showed that

 

A. Spore needs range to be effective, base range fall off fast if mobs are spread out

B. Molt cant even last more then 2 seconds when facing even level 42 enemies.

 

this was one a 158 dur, 130 eff, 100 range, 130 str test build

 

Unless something is changed with how Molt works it wont even be able to provide healing in any serious mission.

 

Starchart max out at level 47 enemies for none endless missions on Ceres.

 

There is no reason what so ever that saryns only option for survival is so bad at its job.

 

It cant draw aggro worth a damn. it cant even hold enemies attention for longer then a couple seconds, Nor can it provide healing from its augment.

 

For those that do not know this here is a fun fact.

 

Regenerative molt heal you over 10 ticks over 10 seconds. The instance the Molt is destroyed all healing stops.

 

Now the healing is affected by Power strength but that wont help saryn players when the healing is cut short after its destroyed. 

[taiiat]

but they do so separately with set Durations for each stack, rather than merging into one big stack with an infinitely rolling Duration.

 

And your only indicator is the one skull-and-crossbones icon under your target's health bar, rather than say 5 or 15 of them as you churn out more procs via Toxic Lash, so you never know exactly how many stacks you've put on the target

ah, okay.

that's true, yes.

 

- - - - - 

 

(and as ever, Molt not distracting Enemies enough, not surviving enough - use more strategy.)

[DSMatticus]

(and as ever, Molt not distracting Enemies enough, not surviving enough - use more strategy.)

Don't be condescending. There is no strategy that makes molt good; it has zero range and incredibly low durability. The only situation in which a molt will last longer than a blink or two is a situation in which you are already behind cover and no one is shooting at you. So here's the million dollar question: you are behind cover and no one is shooting at you. Why do you need to take aggro off yourself?

 

Molt's only redeeming feature is its augment, so you can use it for health. It doesn't even last long enough to take the heat off of you while you revive a teammate. If people barely ever use loki's decoy (outside of switch teleport hijinks and glitching it into places it can't take damage from enemies, they rarely bother), what hope does molt have?

[YasaiTsume]

Don't be condescending. There is no strategy that makes molt good; it has zero range and incredibly low durability. The only situation in which a molt will last longer than a blink or two is a situation in which you are already behind cover and no one is shooting at you. So here's the million dollar question: you are behind cover and no one is shooting at you. Why do you need to take aggro off yourself?

 

Molt's only redeeming feature is its augment, so you can use it for health. It doesn't even last long enough to take the heat off of you while you revive a teammate. If people barely ever use loki's decoy (outside of switch teleport hijinks and glitching it into places it can't take damage from enemies, they rarely bother), what hope does molt have?

The whole point for Molt to have moderate durability is because IT IS MEANT TO EXPLODE TO APPLY A DOT

 

Spore on Molt spreads too when enemies shoot it. 

It is meant to help spread the DoT around so Miasma can come in for the finisher.

Edited November 8, 2015 by YasaiTsume

[GhostLacuna]

Use strategy to make Molt survive?

 

Sure i place molt in this corner here, or up there to make sure it actually stay up its full duration. mean while all enemies focus fire on me while i wonder why DE though it would be vise to make the only CC option Saryn has not able to scale what so ever.

 

I hope you are aware Taiiat that there is no way at all to extend the stagger from Miasma.

 

At that point why bother with saryns abilities at all?

 

when any of my red veil weapons is a better miasma, dont cost energy but actually give it to me. And deal a crap ton more damage then miasma can ever dream about.

 

hell any status weapon in the game is better CC then what saryn got

 

The uselessness of the blocking from toxin lash is just pure comedy.

 

any weapon from one of the better melee weapons categories block more damage then toxin lash does

 

you need more then 200% power strength for it to even come near the 85% that weapons like dragon nikana can block.

 

its a gimmicky forced melee ability that is nothing but a turd.

 

Its only redeeming quality is that it works with spore.

[GhostLacuna]

The whole point for Molt to have moderate durability is because IT IS MEANT TO EXPLODE TO APPLY A DOT

 

Spore on Molt spreads too when enemies shoot it. 

It is meant to help spread the DoT around so Miasma can come in for the finisher.

 

Really here i though i used it to heal. you know that being a augment and all that.

 

Spore on molt only spread to enemies withing a extremely limited range.

 

Its range when it explodes has also not been fixed since the damn pvp patch.

 

If you where to actually test it like i and others have done you would find that its a static 10 meter on that explosion.

 

the only way you can actually make molt use your range mod the way it is supposed to do is if you feed miasma into it.

 

Let molt expire or cast a new one to explode the first and its 10 meter no matter your range mods.

[DSMatticus]

It is meant to help spread the DoT around so Miasma can come in for the finisher.

Why are you talking about the rework if you don't even know how to play it?

If you cast miasma within range of a molt, the molt explodes. The effects of the molt's explosion are applied before the effects of the miasma. When a molt explodes, all spores on the molt burst. Because spores bursting is a part of the molt's explosion, the spore bursts are applied before the effects of the miasma. Molt could be literally 100% immune to enemy damage with a duration of infinity, and you could still use miasma to explode a molt and spread toxin (or even viral) procs that that miasma would then benefit from because that is part of how molt works. There are absolutely no downsides to having to pop molt with miasma, and plenty of upsides to having a more durable molt (the longer the molt stays up, the more aggro it takes you off, the more you benefit from regenerative molt, and the more time you have to cover it with spores).

 

But you know what? It doesn't even matter. Molt explosions have a range of 10m. Do you know what that is with stretch? 14.5m. Do you know what miasma's range is without stretch? 15m. Imagine trying to use miasma without any range mods whatsoever. Now shave off .5m because you hate yourself. Welcome to trying to use molt to spread toxin procs. It's trash. Molt's explosion seriously covers half the total area miasma does.

 

But you know what? Even that still doesn't matter, because nobody is using miasma as a finisher against remotely difficult content. Miasma is rubbish even if you cover the map in viral+toxin. It is more energy efficient, less risky, more reliable, and faster to grab Ember, tap 2 for accelerant's amazing CC, and then just shoot everyone in the face with a gun. And to be frank, nobody is using miasma as a finisher against not-quite-as-difficult content, either, because people have discovered exponential spore-stacking and now they use use high fire-rate AoE weapons and range mods to (theoretically) explode hundreds - if not thousands - of spores per second and clear the entire map in one fell swoop, making miasma completely pointless. And some people will even swear that that trick scales into high level content, though I personally have yet to be able to make that work particularly well.

 

Miasma is a joke, and the punchline is spores followed by an endless barrage of exploding ninja stars.

[taiiat]

There is no strategy that makes molt good

except casting it NOT in the middle of a room where Enemies can shoot at your Decoy Ability.

use some actual strategy to your gameplay, and there's little reason why your Decoy Ability won't last it's full Duration while serving it's purposes fully.

 

people barely use Decoy Abilities because they require some brain cells to use effectively.

because you use the Ability, the Ability does not do things for you or in place of the Player's activity. it's you using the Ability for whatever your current purpose(s) are, not pressing the button and having it solve your problems for you.

the former rewards Skill and knowledge of the game + situational awareness. the latter is, well, doing it for you.

 

Sure i place molt in this corner here, or up there to make sure it actually stay up its full duration. mean while all enemies focus fire on me

 

I hope you are aware that there is no way at all to extend the stagger from Miasma.

 

 

any weapon from one of the better melee weapons categories block more damage then toxin lash does

if Enemies are not paying atttention to your Decoy Ability, that means your application of strategy has failed.

 

no, there isn't a way to extend Miasma's Stun. i... haven't said there is, anytime, in the past week. the only thing related to it i've said is restating ways to make it's CC relevant, and able to be modified by Mods. Miasma's Stun lasts somewhere between 3 and 4 seconds. the Ability having a shorter Duration means that the Ability ends before the CC does, which is quite strange. or even cuts the length of the Stun even shorter, which would be hard to tell if it does because it ended in between full seconds as it was, for some reason.

but more importantly, anyone that's been around long enough to see what i've been saying about Saryn(or has been looking at the feedback Thread for Saryn this past week) - if Miasma isn't Creeping Death like it should be, at the very least 4 seconds/Ticks, each Damage Tick applies a 1100ms Stun.

 

you know that Toxic Lash's Blocking Bonus is in addition to the Blocking your Melee Weapon provides, right? 

 

the more you benefit from regenerative molt

within the 10 Seconds of available Healing that doesn't increase with Mods, only decreases if Molt doesn't last that long.

Edited November 8, 2015 by taiiat

[DSMatticus]

Hey, genius, if you can put your molt in a place enemies can't shoot it... then you are already standing in a place enemies can't shoot you! You don't need a decoy! Meanwhile if you are in actual danger of actually being shot - a situation in which having a decoy to take those bullets for you sounds pretty convenient - it cannot really serve that purpose because it explodes in a mildly hostile light breeze.

 

Remember, molt has zero range. If your strategy involves putting your molt somewhere safe so that it can keep you safe without exploding immediately, you can just cut the middle man out of the equation and stand wherever you were going to put your molt. Voila. I just saved you some time and energy. Thank me later.

[TheBrsrkr]

Hey, genius, if you can put your molt in a place enemies can't shoot it... then you are already standing in a place enemies can't shoot you! You don't need a decoy! Meanwhile if you are in actual danger of actually being shot - a situation in which having a decoy to take those bullets for you sounds pretty convenient - it cannot really serve that purpose because it explodes in a mildly hostile light breeze.

Remember, molt has zero range. If your strategy involves putting your molt somewhere safe so that it can keep you safe without exploding immediately, you can just cut the middle man out of the equation and stand wherever you were going to put your molt. Voila. I just saved you some time and energy. Thank me later.

Here's where you miss the point. It's a decoy. Of course they're not shooting at you. The whole point of the thing is to keep it that way, since when they DO fire, it'll be at something that's NOT YOU. Put it behind cover, and they'll shoot the cover (read: not you) while you do something else (read: kill them). It's not hard.

[Hammahness808]

The thing about Molt is that it just doesn't scale well with what it's supposed to do. Deal damage and distract enemies. At higher levels, the damage it gives is laughable and it can easily die within 1-3 shots. It needs something other than an ability augment and (10m radius) status applier to be worth using. It needs -

-either a larger AoE/stun wave

-scaling durability

-innate healing

-scaling damage

-another type of debuff that occurs with the explosion range

 

 

Edit: Also, at higher levels, while hiding your Molt in a room to receive passive healing - what, besides dealing damage, would be so bad to go into a hiding place yourself and drop a healing pad. Giving you an additional mod slot.

Edited November 8, 2015 by TGKazein

[GhostLacuna]

if Enemies are not paying atttention to your Decoy Ability, that means your application of strategy has failed.

 

no, there isn't a way to extend Miasma's Stun. i... haven't said there is, anytime, in the past week. the only thing related to it i've said is restating ways to make it's CC relevant, and able to be modified by Mods. Miasma's Stun lasts somewhere between 3 and 4 seconds. the Ability having a shorter Duration means that the Ability ends before the CC does, which is quite strange. or even cuts the length of the Stun even shorter, which would be hard to tell if it does because it ended in between full seconds as it was, for some reason.

but more importantly, anyone that's been around long enough to see what i've been saying about Saryn(or has been looking at the feedback Thread for Saryn this past week) - if Miasma isn't Creeping Death like it should be, at the very least 4 seconds/Ticks, each Damage Tick applies a 1100ms Stun.

 

you know that Toxic Lash's Blocking Bonus is in addition to the Blocking your Melee Weapon provides, right? 

 

within the 10 Seconds of available Healing that doesn't increase with Mods, only decreases if Molt doesn't last that long.

 

If enemies are paying attention to my molt its dead in 2 seconds flat vs level 42 enemies on appolodorus at 38 min in a solo run.

 

If i want to to stay alive i place it somewhere where they cant target it but you know what, due to how the ability work if the molt is safe from enemy fire so am i.

 

What where i using molt for again?

 

Oh right healing which you yourself so nicely pointed out ends the instant molt is destroyed.

 

Cant use it for diversion due to how bad its durability is.

 

Also the only way you can make Molt use your range mod correctly as of now is if you feed miasma into it.

 

All other ways to end molt be it that the duration expires or that you cast molt a second time will have a static 10 meter explosion radius.

 

This has been tested over and over by me and others.

 

Its been that way since the pvp patch for saryn.

 

Also for you to be able to block you need to have melee only equipped.

 

congratulation your DPS just went down by 80%. Time to close the gap as fast as possible to the enemies, face first and hope nothing comes up from the sides, above or behind you.

 

Enjoy the massive damage once you close into melee because all the other enemies have a free pass to focus fire at you when you are in melee.

 

you can also not block and melee at the same time so while you might have some slight added survivability from lash on your way to your first target. It ends the instant you start your first swing.

[taiiat]

i guess y'all just can't use your noodles.

 

if Molt is placed in a location where it's slightly exposed, but not enough to get a clear sight picture, Enemies will gladly spend it's entire Duration shooting at the Hard Cover that's protecting it.

they'll do nothing else.

 

you're free to do whatever you want because 90%+ of the Enemies are focusing on your Decoy Ability.

you can get almost every Enemy to pay attention to it at any given time as well.... the distraction of it isn't 'unreliable'. it's 100% reliable if you understand AI and manipulate them to what you want them to do.

 

 

what you're all saying is that Decoy Abilities are too hard for you to use. while it can do what you want, attract Enemy attention for a long period of time regardless of Enemy Level, the response is that if it isn't invulnerability and invisibility for the Duration of it's placed, that it's too hard to use.

 

 

 

hey, i didn't say i like Blocking, i only said that the Blocking Bonus on Toxic Lash is a Bonus. it doesn't help in Melee, i agree, since you can't attack while Blocking, making it largely pointless as to actually do something other than stand there, you're taking full Damage anyways.

 

already covered most of these complaints in the appropriate location.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/556381-feedback-megathread-saryn-revisited/?view=findpost&p=6277953

 

 

 

finally, i've heard harping on the Explosion Radius long enough. i'm aware. but i don't care to hear it in every single post. spamming doesn't make things any more or less correct than they are already. say it enough times to make the point in a new discussion (which is once).

Edited November 8, 2015 by taiiat