Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

5 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

i did the math

there's no actual math that can be done - but it is known that single digit percentages of Player Bases use a Forum for such game, in all games.

[Aquasurge]

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Ever heard of the Sweeper Prime? Or the Vulklok?

not really.....

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

i did the math and it's 3%. 

How did you calculate this?

[Aquasurge]

13 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

How did you calculate this?

if you go to the bottom of the forum's main page, you will find the statistics for the amount of forum users and the amount of forum users. turn it into a fraction and you will find 3%. hope this helps

[--Q--uaint]

2 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

if you go to the bottom of the forum’s main page, you will find the statistics for the amount of forum users and the amount of forum users. turn it into a fraction and you will find 3%. hope this helps

There’s a number of flaws with this method. The forum does seem to include all users, sure. But there’s a large number of unused accounts and some alts as well.

The statistic also says “most online,” which means peak capacity. Or at least I think it means peak capacity. This will not account for people whose schedules do not overlap.

[Aquasurge]

Just now, ChronoEclipse said:

There’s a number of flaws with this method. The forum does seem to include all users, sure. But there’s a large number of unused accounts and some alts as well.

The statistic also says “most online,” which means peak capacity. Or at least I think it means peak capacity. This will not account for people whose schedules do not overlap.

true

[taiiat]

12 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

if you go to the bottom of the forum's main page, you will find the statistics for the amount of forum users and the amount of forum users. turn it into a fraction and you will find 3%. hope this helps

uhhh... total members is only the people that have a Warframe Account who have come to the Forums for their Forum Account to be created.

your numbers are not only flawed(which they always would be ofc), but... are using the wrong data.
you'd want total Game Accounts vs Forum Accounts, and then still the flaw of not knowing what accounts are completely inactive or are Alt Accounts, Et Cetera.

[Hellmaker2004]

On 2014-03-20 at 2:53 AM, Archwizard said:

Trinity
- Well of Life's life drain can also revive downed players if the target is killed while the effect is active.
- Pool of Life is now “Lifeblood”: Casting Well of Life on an ally grants them a percentage of life drain, with a capped amount of healing it can grant per player.
- Energy Vampire no longer restores energy in pulses. Instead, each pulse causes targets to discharge waves of electricity, stunning all nearby enemies. Killing a target affected by Energy Vampire causes them to drop energy orbs upon death. (See Energy Generation Changes under General.)
- Vampire Leech restores overshields to allies based on the number of targets struck by the electrical waves.
- Passive: Trinity has an increased rate of reviving allies.

 

I don't really like the overall aspect of this change, it would turn her more from a team oriented defensive frame into a energy focused frame more focused with crowd control. The charm with Trinity is that she is completely oriented towards team support.

Another issue is her passive in this iteration of her. She is a healer and in theory letting your allies go down is something you should work towards denying, having a passive to strengthen that feels counterproductive as it removes some of the loss. However i will agree she needs serious work and i will post what i believe is a decent change.

 

Energy Vampire. 1

Spoiler

 

Energy Vampire is changed to her number one ability.

25 Energy cost.

Energy Vampire marks a target, a marked target will be staggered and receive 20% - 30% Damage increase from out coming sources. (Improved by power strength and duration).

If a marked target dies Trinity will restore 50 Energy to herself and gain one stack of "Leech". (Improved by power strength)

Leech can stack up to three times and will offer energy to nearby allies, but will not grant any energy towards Trinity herself. Adding a stack or killing a marked target will refresh the duration.

"Leech" Grants X/2 Energy per second to allies inside 25 Meter radius. (Improved by power range and power duration)

If Trinity is Linked with a hostile Leech will instead Grant X energy per second to allies inside 25 Meter Radius. (Improved by power range and power duration)

Note: The effect from "Leech" is Balanced around having 3x stacks and being linked. It require a small buildup so she have to work on keeping it active and at the same time it will provide her with sustainability to help her with her own energy management without providing a silly amount to allies. It is important to note that although Trinity will be getting a base value of 50 energy when a marked target dies, she will however not be effected by the "Leech" energy regeneration effect. It adds synergy with Link, and can easily be tuned for a more balanced energy system.

A foe that is marked should visually have the same current effect as Energy Vampire have, to help different them from other foes. Perhaps instead of having them pulse out a blue effect it could be changed into Trinity's energy color.

Augment: Curse

Energy Vampire no longer grants stacks of "Leech" Whenever a target dies, but the base value of the debuff goes up to 40% - 60% (Improved by Power Strength and Power Duration).

 

 

 

Well of Life. 2

Spoiler

 

Well of Life is changed to her number two.

50 Energy Cost.

Well of life lifts a target in the air, disables them and grant them 10x health value for 12 seconds, while lifted they will pulse each 3 second restoring Y amount shield to allies inside 25 meter. (Improved by Power strength, Power Duration and Power Range). If the target dies while being targeted by Well of life it will detonate the remaining pulses up to a maximum of 3 pulses instantly.

Note: Only one target can be effected by Well of Life at any given time and the interval between pulses can not be modified, if the duration conflict with a full interval a partial shield restoration will be granted equal to the missing percentage. Well of Life can offer over shield with it's shield restoring capability's.

Augment: Pool of Life

Well of life no longer grants the lifted foe 10x health value nor does it grant any shield restoration anymore. Instead Well of life will when the target dies drop 3x health orbs(Improved by Power Strength), 1x Energy Orb and will revive up to one allie inside 25 meter radius.

 

 

Link. 3

Spoiler

 

75 Energy cost.

Link will remain largely unchanged except the added synergy with Energy Vampire.

It would be good if it could offer more synergy with Well of Life and / or Blessing but having to rely on linking to the correct target would be the wrong way to achieve it so i have no honest idea how the synergy would perform.

to perform the Synergy between Link and Energy Vampire's "Leech" Effect, you only have to be linked to any target, it does not have to be a marked target.

 

 

Blessing. 4

Spoiler

 

100 Energy cost.

Blessing restore 80% health to all allies.(Improved by Strength) And offers Damage reduction depending on how much health have been lost from hostile damage. (Improved by power duration).

Note: The overall change to blessing would be that it no longer restore shield, and there needs to be some sort of system that checks where the damage came from and therefore avoiding the Guaranteed high damage resistance it currently can offer with self damage.

 

 

Passive

Spoiler

 

Beacon of life.

Whenever Trinity enters bleed out, all allies will be buffed offering 20% Movement speed, 30% Revive speed and grants them Z health regeneration per second for the duration of her Bleed out. (Improved by increased Bleed out timer).

Note: Trinity will offer this to everyone except herself (Not like she needs it ), it will be given the default duration plus any addition from the point she entered bleed out, so effects prolonging her bleed out while she is bleeding out will not increase the duration of the buff since it "snapshots" her duration at the moment she enters bleed out.

The buff will be applied to allies and is considered a buff, so it can be removed by hostiles, furthermore it will be dispelled if Trinity is successfully revived.

 

 

I believe these changes would not only be a big part of changing the broken energy management system we currently have and yet she will keep her role to be more focused on boosting allies survivability. Well of life is changed to provide shield boosting and renewal capability's and Blessing loses that ability, this ends up making Well of Life relevant and still award players willing to take risks with Blessing. Most of her kit is still focused around increasing the amount of the defensive aspect of the team.

The energy Regeneration she can provide to the team is not only requiring initial targets in order to build up stacks but it is further amplified by staying in combat as to promote a none camping play style, the biggest drawback i can see is a group purposely using Well of life on a single target remaining and having her linked with it while passively restoring energy, something that may have to be addressed.

[--Q--uaint]

18 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

gain one stack of "Leech". (Improved by power strength)

So she gets more stacks of leech by having more power strength? Does that mean fractional stacks are a thing?

13 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

"Leech" Grants X/2 Energy per second to allies inside 25 Meter radius. (Improved by power range and power duration)

I notice you didn't mention Strength. Interesting.

[Hellmaker2004]

8 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

So she gets more stacks of leech by having more power strength? Does that mean fractional stacks are a thing?

No the only part that changes is the energy she can gain. "Leech" will always only be granted one stack per killed target to a maximum of 3 stacks.

 

8 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I notice you didn't mention Strength. Interesting.

On purpose, the value should offer a baseline that can not be "broken" by stacking a excessive amount of strength.

 

"Leech" is also a placeholder name, unsure what to call it yet. hence the reason it is within the "marks".

Edited April 18, 2016 by Hellmaker2004
Terrible quoting.

[--Q--uaint]

Hmmm. I like a lot of these ideas, especially swapping EV and WoL’s “intended use case.”

Two more clarification questions on EV:
Why doesn’t “Leech” restore energy to Trinity? Seems like a silly hair to split IMO.
About how long do you think “Leech” stacks should last? This will make or break the difference between a generalized team-focused Trin being high-maintenance or not.

 

The passive seems kinda weird, seeing as it somewhat encourages you to go down. Amusingly, going down would also help your squadmates revive other squadmates.

I don’t think the augments should remove functionality from the abilities they augment. Augments take a non-exilus slot, so they should be worth as much or more (given their polarity) than a mod of equivalent drain.

I also feel like Link could use some scaling with Power strength, but maybe that’s just me.

I don’t mind Blessing not restoring shields; I think it’s an interesting compromise that makes both it and WoL have a special niche. However, I don’t know how doable it is to make self-damage not work and I don’t really like the inconsistencies and questions it would bring. A particularly big question is how to deal with Inaros and Nekros since they can inflict “self damage” on themselves while acting completely within definitely intended use.

Something I've been thinking about is maybe giving Trinity a DR that’s not necessarily the same as her squad’s. Trinity would get a minimum of 75%, stacking with and independent from Link, that gives her the durability to survive high level content without exposing herself too much. If her own missing health % or the squad’s DR is higher, she gets that instead.
The big tradeoff here is that the DR granted to the squad cannot be based on Trinity’s health loss. If you devote two squad members to keeping 99% Bless up, you totally still can, but you need someone who’s not the Bless Trin to self-mutilate (and, amusingly enough, there are 2 'frames who can specialize in this and do it whether or not they have DR on). This significantly increases the coordination and effort needed to maintain 99% DR, without introducing so much inconsistency/weirdness.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Hmmm. I like a lot of these ideas, especially swapping EV and WoL’s “intended use case.”

Two more clarification questions on EV:
Why doesn’t “Leech” restore energy to Trinity? Seems like a silly hair to split IMO.
About how long do you think “Leech” stacks should last? This will make or break the difference between a generalized team-focused Trin being high-maintenance or not.

 

The primary reason she does not gain the passive from "Leech" is so she becomes more vulnerable to magnetic procs and to be more punishing if you are not paying attention to your own energy since it still have a cost.So i find that she actively have to restore her own energy instead of relying on it occurring in the background to be much more interesting. Trinity benefiting from her own passive would also diminish the use of other passive energy regeneration tools.

The idea is that She will provide passive energy regeneration towards allies so it can not be abused by spamming it. One could say that the primary purpose is provide energy to herself and as a added benefit offer team regeneration to those near her.

The duration is something that is hard to put a direct value on as as such i have not done so, the mark itself could last for 10 - 15 seconds (Improved by duration) since the only Crowd control effect is a stagger(Not effected by Duration). But for "Leech" one would need to know the amount before one can start to balance the duration. in my idea it is primarily seen as a slow bonus in energy regeneration for the team close to her, ratter than a primary way to restore energy. Therefore making it a nice bonus but not to diminish her role as a healer.

 

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

The passive seems kinda weird, seeing as it somewhat encourages you to go down. Amusingly, going down would also help your squadmates revive other squadmates.

 

The passive primary intended purpose is to assist people in aiding her. The healing per second should stay low and only be a small amount to boost survivability, movement speed will help people to reach a intended target and revive speed will lower the risk of standing still.

The primary purpose is to mitigate and boost a squads revive chance of the team Trinity herself since she have a very front line focused role. She can already heal much better with active ability use than the passive regeneration brings, and while she is down she can provide no additional active team support besides what she either already boosted or the small bonus that her passive will grant. What could be change is that instead of improving everyones revive speed it could be tuned to only her revive speed and perhaps 30% may also be slightly to high as it removes almost 1/3 of the risk.

 

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I also feel like Link could use some scaling with Power strength, but maybe that’s just me.

Not something i am completely against myself, but one have to also remember that the version of Trinity requires you to be close to targets and Link can be counter played by certain foes, and Trinity without Link is as durable as wet paper towel. So her damage resistance would be primarily focused on active use of a ability instead of being passive as armor.

 

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I don’t mind Blessing not restoring shields; I think it’s an interesting compromise that makes both it and WoL have a special niche. However, I don’t know how doable it is to make self-damage not work and I don’t really like the inconsistencies and questions it would bring. A particularly big question is how to deal with Inaros and Nekros since they can inflict “self damage” on themselves while acting completely within definitely intended use.

Something I've been thinking about is maybe giving Trinity a DR that’s not necessarily the same as her squad’s. Trinity would get a minimum of 75%, stacking with and independent from Link, that gives her the durability to survive high level content without exposing herself too much. If her own missing health % or the squad’s DR is higher, she gets that instead.
The big tradeoff here is that the DR granted to the squad cannot be based on Trinity’s health loss. If you devote two squad members to keeping 99% Bless up, you totally still can, but you need someone who’s not the Bless Trin to self-mutilate (and, amusingly enough, there are 2 'frames who can specialize in this and do it whether or not they have DR on). This significantly increases the coordination and effort needed to maintain 99% DR, without introducing so much inconsistency/weirdness.

 

The idea is that it heals 80% health (improved by power strength). And checks what removed the missing health, primarily to stop self damage with weapons. However it brings a interesting question if a self mutilating frame is also considered "self damage" or if it would be refereed to as frame synergy.

i can quickly comment one of those directly, and even tough i find a allie using weapons to self damage harder and more team work is required. I believe it would even tough it is severely more complicated to exploit this way,  still be "exploited" and diminish the risk vs reward one have from active combat.

The other part is more interesting. Frames that can use ability's to self mutilate is not something i am directly against since it would provide synergy between frames, but it could be much harder to implement code wise if the self damage with weapons is removed, however it is a very interesting idea and something that needs a bit of pondering.

 

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I don’t think the augments should remove functionality from the abilities they augment. Augments take a non-exilus slot, so they should be worth as much or more (given their polarity) than a mod of equivalent drain.

 

I think it is safe to say that i have always believed augments to be ability changing effects to promote different style but with the same ability, instead of directly making them stronger, this however does not have to be the case. I am however terrible at making up augments that would provide a small boost without feeling mandatory, and at the same time be worth a mod slot.

So to make augment question short, i have no idea.

 

As a short addition i have no issue with people giving ideas how to change certain aspect of what i find to be interesting play style wise. My way is not the high way and any input how to make it more interesting or balanced are indeed appreciated simply explain why and how, if a idea or aspect of something is bad try to explain why it is so and how you would improve it. I am hardly the only one playing Trinity or the only one who have a opinion either how a Trinity rework should be or the play style the frame have.

It is clear to me that my current idea is unrefined both in how the ability's are explained and the overall changes to them. But i felt a need to at the very least explain how i would like Trinity to be reworked for better or worse.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Hellmaker2004
The last sentence was terrible.

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

The primary reason she does not gain the passive from “Leech” is so she becomes more vulnerable to magnetic procs and to be more punishing if you are not paying attention to your own energy since it still have a cost.So i find that she actively have to restore her own energy instead of relying on it occurring in the background to be much more interesting. Trinity benefiting from her own passive would also diminish the use of other passive energy regeneration tools.

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

One could say that the primary purpose is provide energy to herself and as a added benefit offer team regeneration to those near her.

This feels like how EV was always meant to be.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Not something i am completely against myself, but one have to also remember that the version of Trinity requires you to be close to targets and Link can be counter played by certain foes, and Trinity without Link is as durable as wet paper towel. So her damage resistance would be primarily focused on active use of a ability instead of being passive as armor.

It is my opinion that most of the foes that counterplay abilities should be removed from the game, though I'm sure I don’t speak for everyone.

Apart from Nullifiers themselves, any enemy that isn’t outright nullifying Link itself can be Linked, and Link can definitely get to the status of “high enough range nobody’s gonna be able to attack me without me being Linked” pretty easily. In fact, I have a build that strips armor with a high-range Link that I linked in the other thread.

By “active use of a[n] ability,” do you mean Blessing?

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

i can quickly comment one of those directly, and even tough i find a allie using weapons to self damage harder and more team work is required. I believe it would even tough it is severely more complicated to exploit this way,  still be “exploited” and diminish the risk vs reward one have from active combat.

The other part is more interesting. Frames that can use ability’s to self mutilate is not something i am directly against since it would provide synergy between frames, but it could be much harder to implement code wise if the self damage with weapons is removed, however it is a very interesting idea and something that needs a bit of pondering.

I think that if ability self-mutilating is not considered self-damage, using a weapon to self-damage shouldn’t be considered that either. Hurting yourself with an ability always has a significant boon attached, while hurting yourself with a weapon just costs ammo/health/energy. Not only that, but restricting 'frame choice would be rather annoying.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

So to make augment question short, i have no idea.

Well, I can certainly comment on those.

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Augment: Curse

Energy Vampire no longer grants stacks of “Leech” Whenever a target dies, but the base value of the debuff goes up to 40% - 60% (Improved by Power Strength and Power Duration).

This solidifies EV as a kill skill, but shouldn’t compromise her team support. (The augments we have all either enhance the ability directly or simply add a teamplay bonus/aspect to it.)
I would argue that the base debuff should perhaps even be higher, but then EV is literally the most spammable skill in the game so probably not.

3 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Augment: Pool of Life

Well of life no longer grants the lifted foe 10x health value nor does it grant any shield restoration anymore. Instead Well of life will when the target dies drop 3x health orbs(Improved by Power Strength), 1x Energy Orb and will revive up to one allie inside 25 meter radius.

By the by, why'd you remove the healing from WoL? At this point, giving the target 10x health is just discouraging people from trying to kill him at best and has fairly high troll-potential :P

Again, removing the base ability’s affects is bad IMO, and none of the current augments do that (well, maybe the PvP ones?). Dropping health orbs on death seems like a good compromise to avoid stepping on Blessing. Energy Orbs could make it a self-sustaining ability, too, because efficiency OP.
I don’t know about the ally-reviving thing. Maybe allow a direct cast to extend their bleedout timer?

[Hellmaker2004]

40 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

By “active use of a[n] ability,” do you mean Blessing?

Both actually i was merely wording myself poorly. Losing link in a bad spot can turn a safe situation quickly around if you are not paying attention to the surrounding and link's duration, but blessing also pay a part in this since you can use blessings damage resistance to provide protection while Link needs to be reactivated.

 

40 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Well, I can certainly comment on those.

This solidifies EV as a kill skill, but shouldn’t compromise her team support. (The augments we have all either enhance the ability directly or simply add a teamplay bonus/aspect to it.)
I would argue that the base debuff should perhaps even be higher, but then EV is literally the most spammable skill in the game so probably not.

By the by, why'd you remove the healing from WoL? At this point, giving the target 10x health is just discouraging people from trying to kill him at best and has fairly high troll-potential :P

Again, removing the base ability’s affects is bad IMO, and none of the current augments do that (well, maybe the PvP ones?). Dropping health orbs on death seems like a good compromise to avoid stepping on Blessing. Energy Orbs could make it a self-sustaining ability, too, because efficiency OP.
I don’t know about the ally-reviving thing. Maybe allow a direct cast to extend their bleedout timer?

 I was evidently going more towards that  augments should "change" the play style of a ability instead of actually augment the effects.

The purpose of Energy Vampires small damage increase on the target was to aid in killing them. The augment would exchange the aspect that allies will gain energy for a stronger offensive version but still only working like a debuff, and yet to keep Trinity's own Energy management still in it.

 

And to explain Well of Life.

Well of Life offers a Y amount of Shield (that can provide over shield) each 3 second for the duration of 15 seconds, so already without any duration mods it would end up being 5 pulses (6 If it would have one pulse trigger instantly upon activation) If you let the lifted foe live for the full duration. However to avoid the same issue Energy Vampire had at initial release (Foes killed did not "explode" with energy when killed). It now offers sort of compensation by having up to three pulses in the final detonation if the target is killed but only if there are remaining pulses still "stored" on the target.

So well of life wants to keep the debuffed foe alive, yet it offers a sort of compensation if the target is killed.

 

The purpose of the Augment is to change it from a Shield / Over shield tool, into a reviving tool that Guarantees one energy Orb to the team and some health orbs, this is also why Well of life with the augment no longer grants the debuffed foe 10x health, as you would wants to kill the target both for the extra energy orb and as a distant revive tool.

 

I have however realized it may be a bad idea to use augments to change ability's and perhaps the whole augment ideas so far could be scrapped.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[Archwizard]

On 4/18/2016 at 3:43 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

I don't really like the overall aspect of this change, it would turn her more from a team oriented defensive frame into a energy focused frame more focused with crowd control.

Problem with that assessment being, there are two pervading builds for Trinity at the moment:
1) Blessing-spammers (max. Duration) who abuse Quick Thinking to give the group godmode.
2) EV-spammers (min. Duration) who abuse her 2nd ability to give the group infinite energy.
Presently, Trinity's ability to enable one or the other causes a world of difference between having a Trinity on the team and having literally any other frame in her spot - it's not simply that she "helps", it's that having one trivializes the content. Case in point, one EV Trinity can single-handedy remove the intended penalty of buttons in the Nightmare Trial, significantly reducing the difficulty.

The whole point of even touching on Trinity is to balance the two to make them more difficult to exploit (especially in the face of reducing the availability of energy for powers from all other sources, which could lead players to turn even more to Trinity than now if not addressed), but still capable of providing for the same basic role.

On 4/18/2016 at 3:43 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Energy Vampire. 1

Moving Energy Vampire to the first slot completely misses the point of Trinity on at least two fronts, and they're both concerned with the reason why the abilities are in the order they are: how you obtain them when leveling.
First, she's intended to be the core Healer Warframe - the main division between her and other "supportive" frames is that she can provide her services at lower levels, in spite of WoL being completely overshadowed by Blessing. If you move Well (or remove it without compensating for her low-level healing), the healer can't really heal until she picks up her ultimate.
Second... big woop that she has free energy at level 1, what's she supposed to do with it? Make more energy to put... where? It becomes a completely useless power when soloing (and barely any better when she's not).

I don't understand how you can complain that we're pushing her into being "energy focused", only to turn around and literally make energy her first priority.

On 4/18/2016 at 3:43 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Well of Life. 2

Again, removing the healing aspect defeats the point of Trinity at all at low levels, and just increases the value of her ultimate which it really doesn't need.

On 4/18/2016 at 3:43 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Blessing. 4

The lack of shielding is small potatoes (hide for long enough and they'll come back on their own), given the mitigation that the ability provides. 99% mitigation is literally 100x effective health.

On 4/18/2016 at 3:43 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Passive

And if she's in solo mode?

At least Inaros' death state alteration enables him to actually use a death state when he's on his own. In Trinity's case, it would be a completely worthless effect.

_{^{Further, it doesn't really encourage her to support, it just encourages others to support her, which rather goes against the point of a support frame if I do say.}}

Edited April 19, 2016 by Archwizard

[Hellmaker2004]

On 2014-03-20 at 2:53 AM, Archwizard said:

- Well of Life's life drain can also revive downed players if the target is killed while the effect is active.
- Pool of Life is now “Lifeblood”: Casting Well of Life on an ally grants them a percentage of life drain, with a capped amount of healing it can grant per player.
- Energy Vampire no longer restores energy in pulses. Instead, each pulse causes targets to discharge waves of electricity, stunning all nearby enemies. Killing a target affected by Energy Vampire causes them to drop energy orbs upon death. (See Energy Generation Changes under General.)
- Vampire Leech restores overshields to allies based on the number of targets struck by the electrical waves.
- Passive: Trinity has an increased rate of reviving allies.

Are primarily the reason why i feel like she is moving towards more energy focused for the team and with crowd control skills.

 

So far as i understand it this are the things "you" want to change into although i assume this have been a discussion with several members so i am not directing it towards you personally.

Well of Life's change is nice, but it does not remove the two primary concerns i see about Trinity's skills in a overall view. One being that Well of Life by itself is a extremely gimmicky heal and unless hostile damage is reduced to such a very low standrad it will not work as a healing tool unless you use the augment. Partialy because of the gimmick and no one wants to shoot a target with 10x health or 90% Damage resistance, it is a waste of time and "damage".

I attempted to resolve this by changing it into a shield restore with pulses and it only boosts the targets health so you can increase the odds of all the pulses occurring. And by making it shield restore it would not conflict with Blessing since they would restore different areas.

Energy Vampire is the biggest issue in above change, Trinity have always been lacking damage and crowd control skills and that is part of her charm. She does not protect her allies by denying hostile actions, she instead restores the negative actions your allies suffer.

My attempt was to give her a tool to grant herself energy therefore help her in self sustainability, and at the same time provide a easily convenient energy to nearby allies, it was never meant to be something you had to have in the group. But instead only be a small bonus, this is also why i did not provide a energy regeneration value since i am unsure how much would be considered "worthless", "Convenient" and "mandatory" in the overall energy rework this thread include.

Passive: I find that the passive to revive allies faster is a passive that in itself is terrible for solo play, and it diminishes her role as a healer. In a perfect world the healer would considerer themselves to have "failed" at there task if they have to revive an allie, and to further diminish that by increasing revive speed is not something i agree on.

I do however see that in solo my interpretation of her passive would be redundant and provide nothing at all, even less so than a passive revive speed increase since even in solo you can at least have Kubrows / Kavats.

 

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Moving Energy Vampire to the first slot completely misses the point of Trinity on at least two fronts, and they're both concerned with the reason why the abilities are in the order they are: how you obtain them when leveling.

First, she's intended to be the core Healer Warframe - the main division between her and other "supportive" frames is that she can provide her services at lower levels, in spite of WoL being completely overshadowed by Blessing. If you move Well (or remove it without compensating for her low-level healing), the healer can't really heal until she picks up her ultimate.
Second... big woop that she has free energy at level 1, what's she supposed to do with it? Make more energy to put... where? It becomes a completely useless power when soloing (and barely any better when she's not).

Yeah i agree, my overall view was the end result at max level instead of looking at the leveling procedure, something i did not think about in my quick draft of how she would be changed to provide defensive support.

 

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Again, removing the healing aspect defeats the point of Trinity at all at low levels, and just increases the value of her ultimate which it really doesn't need.

The lack of shielding is small potatoes (hide for long enough and they'll come back on their own), given the mitigation that the ability provides. 99% mitigation is literally 100x effective health.

I felt it was the only way to keep blessing as a reactive healing tool and at the same time not make her other tools redundant. But i will have to disagree on the 99% Mitigation. As i understand energy would become a much scarcer resource in this interpretation of the game making quick thinking less likely of a tool for a lot of frames. And the self damage exploit is meant to be fixed in my version. Perhaps i was mistaken on how scarce energy would become however.

Now it is true that Trinity herself would have less of a issue managing the energy So i  can still see that Trinity herself could use Quick thinking in this interpretation due to the fact that her own energy is not lacking in the same amount. Perhaps the damage resistance gained from Blessing would only scale from the amount you heal on allies, if Link remains largely unchanged she will not directly be missing any survivability even in solo.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Hellmaker2004
Changed a word, and made well of life sentence hopefully more readable.

[--Q--uaint]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

the main division between her and other “supportive” frames is that she can provide her services at lower levels, in spite of WoL being completely overshadowed by Blessing.

No, the main division is that she’s actually good at healing/survival support, unlike basically anyone else.

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Second… big woop that she has free energy at level 1, what’s she supposed to do with it? Make more energy to put… where? It becomes a completely useless power when soloing (and barely any better when she’s not).

I was going to add this criticism, but Hellmaker’s EV provides some level of crowd control and bonus damage against the CC'd target. Combined with the fact that she can cast literally as much as she wants, and it stops being so lackluster-seeming.
If you have an unranked 'frame, either you're depending on weapons anyway or you will really notice and benefit from the ability to have unlimited single-target CC and damage boosts. If the cast animation/time is changed to be like Smite/Soul Punch/etc I can see this being a very workable first power.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Well of Life’s change is nice, but it does not remove the two primary concerns i see about Trinity’s skills in a overall view. One being that Well of Life by itself is a extremely gimmicky heal and unless hostile damage is reduced to such a very low standrad it will not work as a healing tool unless you use the augment. Partialy because of the gimmick and no one wants to shoot a target with 10x health or 90% Damage resistance, it is a waste of time and “damage”.

This was the reason I decided it might be beneficial to move Trinity’s DR to Well of Life. It’s a well of life, so one would imagine that you'd want to stay near it. This also fixes the problem of redundancy with Blessing.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

My attempt was to give her a tool to grant herself energy therefore help her in self sustainability, and at the same time provide a easily convenient energy to nearby allies, it was never meant to be something you had to have in the group. But instead only be a small bonus, this is also why i did not provide a energy regeneration value since i am unsure how much would be considered “worthless”, “Convenient” and “mandatory” in the overall energy rework this thread include.

I think you have a much better idea than mine here.

@Archwizard, your current version of EV could definitely be seen as stepping on Volt’s toes, especially now that Overload is a sustained CC skill. I think Hellmaker’s EV would probably be a good solution, just moved back to #2.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Perhaps i was mistaken on how scarce energy would become however.

The idea is to not make it too scarce, but to mostly remove spamming. Everyone will have a consistent supply, but not an overwhelming one. Hopefully.

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Perhaps the damage resistance gained from Blessing would only scale from the amount you heal on allies, if Link remains largely unchanged she will not directly be missing any survivability even in solo.

On 4/18/2016 at 4:48 PM, ChronoEclipse said:

The big tradeoff here is that the DR granted to the squad cannot be based on Trinity’s health loss. If you devote two squad members to keeping 99% Bless up, you totally still can, but you need someone who’s not the Bless Trin to self-mutilate (and, amusingly enough, there are 2 'frames who can specialize in this and do it whether or not they have DR on). This significantly increases the coordination and effort needed to maintain 99% DR, without introducing so much inconsistency/weirdness.

The fun thing here is that Trinity can still use 99% DR in solo. However, that sort of a build is generally pretty silly in solo because of Trinity’s various competencies and the fact that it leaves you so very vulnerable every so often.
As an addendum/change, Trinity’s companion should count as a squadmate while getting the benefit of Trinity’s DR calculation. This means no sentinel/Kubrow dying because it didn’t get the Bless DR you gave yourself, and it also means your Sentinel/Kubrow can be a source of DR for everyone if it makes enough enemies angry.

[Elydir]

On 4/20/2016 at 5:02 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Passive: I find that the passive to revive allies faster is a passive that in itself is terrible for solo play, and it diminishes her role as a healer. In a perfect world the healer would considerer themselves to have "failed" at there task if they have to revive an allie, and to further diminish that by increasing revive speed is not something i agree on.

I do however see that in solo my interpretation of her passive would be redundant and provide nothing at all, even less so than a passive revive speed increase since even in solo you can at least have Kubrows / Kavats.

What if instead of making her invincible her ultimate revived people instead? It could have some bonus if shes in solo like preventing her from being downed for a few seconds or something sorta like Defy.

[Aquasurge]

12 hours ago, Annon5150 said:

What if instead of making her invincible her ultimate revived people instead? It could have some bonus if shes in solo like preventing her from being downed for a few seconds or something sorta like Defy.

that sounds like a good idea (insert banshee meme here)

[Hellmaker2004]

13 hours ago, Annon5150 said:

What if instead of making her invincible her ultimate revived people instead? It could have some bonus if shes in solo like preventing her from being downed for a few seconds or something sorta like Defy.

 

That would directly counters the whole idea of a healer frame and would instead turn her into a reviving frame.

A dedicated healer should be able to heal there allies, but at the same time when they do fail they should not have a free out of jail card, "You failed at performing your job".

 

The whole concept of Trinity currently is to heal your allies, give energy and offer damage resistance. The problem is that self damage can ensure maximum amount of damage resistance, and the energy amount she can give others is beyond reason.

 

I believe she can keep her current role, but limitation have to be set on them. Personally i prefer the current style of offering damage resistance the higher you are willing to risk, but there is no doubt it is abused in the current state and easily achieved. If however self damage will not be accounted for i believe it will be in a much fairer spot and would in most cases not result in a guaranteed 99.96% Damage resistance.

For passive however i find it quite hard to figure out what would fit a healer. Regeneration for the team would fit the healing theme but at the same time it would in most cases be a very boring passive and also work in disadvantage with Blessing.

 

I will rework what i did write earlier but it will in most cases stay similar unless a struck of imagination will appear out of nowhere.

[--Q--uaint]

12 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

For passive however i find it quite hard to figure out what would fit a healer.

A low rank of Rage would fit nicely, IMO. Equinox gets Equilibrium, Rhino has Heavy Impact. *shrug*

12 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

I will rework what i did write earlier but it will in most cases stay similar unless a struck of imagination will appear out of nowhere.

What is your opinion on moving the damage reduction to Well of Life in some capacity?

 

EDIT: @Azamagon, I think part of the reason Shatter Shield is so “boring” and “uninteractive” is because Mesa is a gunslinger. Warframe is not a cover-based shooter, so if you want a 'frame that allows you to focus on gunplay you need something tanky but still fast. Mesa gives you that.

Edited April 22, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[Hellmaker2004]

2 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

A low rank of Rage would fit nicely, IMO. Equinox gets Equilibrium, Rhino has Heavy Impact. *shrug*

Although a low rank version of Rage is quite interesting and a good addition to any frame that depend on energy and is designed to take a few hits i find it lacking to Trinity herself.

Currently Trinity is a energy battery, there is no need for Rage at all unless you screw up and you need a get out of jail free card.

Same problem would occur with my idea how she could be changed. The whole point is that you actively work to refresh your own energy, having a although weak version of rage would counter that idea and offer you as i mentioned above a get out of free jail card.

 

2 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

What is your opinion on moving the damage reduction to Well of Life in some capacity?

So here i am slightly conflicted, the idea itself is not terrible but a few questions instantly arrives.

Does not Oberon already offers damage resistance* around a area? And is not the idea to keep that and work towards improving it?

Although it offers it in Armor value** the whole concept of applying a area protection preemptively is something they would have in common. And we would lose out on having any healer with a risk and reward style***.

* = Current version performs poorly

** = For better or worse

*** = Something i personally love but that is of course only a personal preference, this may also be one of the reasons i push strongly towards it.

The second question and a more important one, what would become of Blessing?

@Archwizard Idea;

Spoiler

Blessing reworked: No longer heals or provides mitigation. Trinity casts a buff on the party (regardless of distance), and momentarily stuns enemies near each affected ally on application (affected by Range). Enemies who attack players with the buff will be temporarily stunned. Buff and stun both affected by Duration.

Is something i am completely against, now i assume if this adaptation of the game would go through very few one shots if any would occur, however.

Trinity to me have always been a dedicated healer, that focus only on supporting her allies. And stunning foes is not something i would consider dedicated defensive support as much as i see it as a Crowd control role. It is currently why i enjoy her so much over other frames and she is one of my personal favorite.

 

@ChronoEclipse Idea;

Spoiler

Perhaps instead of CC/damage, Blessing would fullheal instantly and make all damage taken by teammates with the buff produce a healing pulse with 18m range equal to 75% of the health lost, in addition to granting allies a Quick Thinking effect that scales its “efficiency” with Power Strength.
That seems like a suitable replacement for damage reduction, and doesn’t mess with Vex Armor or whatever else.

I am not completely sure i understand this effect. why would you want a healing pulse after you fully heal? Is it a healing per second, and if it is. Would the first part not be very close to stepping on the current version of Oberon's / Inaro's toes?

The second part seems interesting but it is slightly hard for me to grasp how it would work, especially if someone already have quick thinking.

[--Q--uaint]

5 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Although a low rank version of Rage is quite interesting and a good addition to any frame that depend on energy and is designed to take a few hits i find it lacking to Trinity herself.

Currently Trinity is a energy battery, there is no need for Rage at all unless you screw up and you need a get out of jail free card.

Same problem would occur with my idea how she could be changed. The whole point is that you actively work to refresh your own energy, having a although weak version of rage would counter that idea and offer you as i mentioned above a get out of free jail card.

Actually, I think it complements EV nicely. EV does give you energy, but it requires energy to begin the cycle and is by no means instant. Rage does not require energy to start, so you're not necessarily hosed if you don’t have Energy Siphon and cast Blessing with the last of your energy. Rage gives you the seed that you grow and water with EV.

5 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

@ChronoEclipse Idea;

  Hide contents

Perhaps instead of CC/damage, Blessing would fullheal instantly and make all damage taken by teammates with the buff produce a healing pulse with 18m range equal to 75% of the health lost, in addition to granting allies a Quick Thinking effect that scales its “efficiency” with Power Strength.
That seems like a suitable replacement for damage reduction, and doesn’t mess with Vex Armor or whatever else.

I am not completely sure i understand this effect. why would you want a healing pulse after you fully heal? Is it a healing per second, and if it is. Would the first part not be very close to stepping on the current version of Oberon’s / Inaro’s toes?

The second part seems interesting but it is slightly hard for me to grasp how it would work, especially if someone already have quick thinking.

Ok. 

On cast, Blessing heals the party fully. That is unchanged from the original Blessing. This allows it to have a snap-healing effect.

It then gives allies a buff. This buffs makes them pulse healing for every instance of damage they take (at this point, I think 50% scaling with power strength and capped at ?80%? is the way to go). This means it takes a while to die to damage over time, and staying near your allies means everyone’s health is maintained pretty well.

In addition to that healing pulse, they gain a QT effect to make more sure that the healing pulse actually matters (the energy spent would be the ally’s and then Trinity’s). The health return on the QT effect scales with Power Strength as well.
If the ally also has QT, the QT on Blessing and their QT stack to make their energy equal a huge amount of EHP.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Actually, I think it complements EV nicely. EV does give you energy, but it requires energy to begin the cycle and is by no means instant. Rage does not require energy to start, so you're not necessarily hosed if you don’t have Energy Siphon and cast Blessing with the last of your energy. Rage gives you the seed that you grow and water with EV.

i'm pretty sure that was the point - as it stands, usually the only way Trinity can run out of Energy/die (since they're usually one in the same) is bad planning on the Player's part.
having incoming Damage generate Energy basically nullifies the primary failure state for Trinity, of not keeping the cycle going.

[--Q--uaint]

So I bugged a Trinity main, @german_TanKKilleR, and he gave me some pretty good suggestions.

I'm keeping my previous Well of Life rework, at least for now:

Spoiler

As now, Trinity marks a victim, raising it into the air and multiplying its health by 10.
Instead of simply restoring health to the person dealing damage, WoL now restores health to all friendlies in range when the victim takes damage. If augmented, the healing would grant shields/overshields.
In addition to the healing, WoL now provides an aura of damage reduction based on how much damage the victim has taken while under its influence.
The DR-granting aura lasts the full duration of WoL, regardless of victim death. A maximum of 3 DR auras may be up at once, with additional casts canceling previous casts in order of seniority.
Only one victim my be CC'd by WoL at any given time; recasting WoL releases the target without canceling the DR aura (unless it’s got no DR, I guess).

Definitely stealing @Hellmaker2004's EV rework:

Spoiler

I'm making some alterations here; I'll underline them

On 4/18/2016 at 4:43 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Energy Vampire is still her #2 ability.

50 Energy cost.

Energy Vampire marks a target; the marked target will be staggered and receive 20% - 30% damage from all sources. (Improved by power strength and duration).

If the target dies Trinity will restore 100 Energy to herself (Improved by power strength) and gain one stack of “Leech”.

Leech can stack up to three times and will offer energy to nearby allies, but will not grant any energy towards Trinity herself. Adding a stack or killing a marked target will refresh the duration.
“Leech” Grants X Energy per second to allies inside 25 Meter radius. (Improved by power range and power duration) Removed Link dependency.

A foe that is marked should visually have the same current effect as Energy Vampire have, to help different them from other foes. Perhaps instead of having them pulse out a blue effect it could be changed into Trinity’s energy color.

Augment: Pool of Vigor

When a target dies under the effects of EV, it drops an energy orb.

 

Link doesn’t really need much change, but it makes sense to make the reflected damage scale with Power Strength.

Blessing: As now, instant 80% heal of HP and shields, scaling with Power Strength. All (actual, not potential) healed HP is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is.
All healing done by any other means, such as WoL, is also added to the buffer.
Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains from Blessing’s “buffer," with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)

Edited May 27, 2016 by ChronoEclipse