Structured Weapon Tiers

[ensignvidiot]

Greetings, we all know that after a certain point all guns and weapons in the game become nothing more than mastery fodder. Bought, built, leveled to 30, and then discarded in favor for something else, or for your current loadout.

I have a proposal to help correct this issue: A Structured weapon-tier system that already utilizes our current mastery ranking.

It would look something like this (this is just an example, the actual teir list would be based on BASE unmodded DPS)

1. • New Tenno
     • Braton
     • Lato
   • Tenno
     • Karak
     • Bronco
   • Experienced Tenno
     • Tetra
     • Vasto
   • Veteran Tenno
     • Grakatta
     • Some Prime Weapons
   • Tenno Commander
     • Most  Dojo Weapons
   • Tenno Master
     • All remaining weapons, and currently sought after weapons for pure damage
       • Latron prime
       • Brakk
       • Soma
       • Penta, etc.

2. However, even with a tiered mastery system like this you still run into the same problem of having mastery fodder once you tier up to the next level of equipment.

   So, I say let teirs 1-4 scale.

   Warframes at level 0 are really weak and don’t have much durability. As you level them, they gain more health, shields, and energy to use each level.

   Why can’t we have that for weapons? This would represent a newer tenno getting used to the ins and outs of a weapon and slowly becoming a master of said weapon.

   So with the above tiers in mind, this is how it would break down.

   • 1^st: Slow increase to 100% boost in weapon stats
   • 2^nd: Increase to 75% boost
   • 3^rd: 50% boost
   • 4^th: 25% boost
   • 5^th: And onwards would receive no bonus, a tenno would already be extremely proficient with anything he or she picks up.

   This system would do 2 things. Firstly, it would take pressure off of new players to get new guns as fast as possible to get to the next tier for better guns that ACTUALLY do damage. Secondly, it encourages retention of a gun in your inventory as, lo and behold, a lot of guns will do damage in mid to high level gameplay.

   As it stands, other than for bragging-rights and for the shear fact that they haven’t built anything else, who here uses a MK-1 Braton? Or a Skana? How about the Vulkar, or Aklato? Almost no one after they get to Mars. They just don’t do much damage to be considered viable.

    

   In closing, with Tiered scaling in weapons, it creates more options for newer players, and allows them to do more damage with the basic set of gear. For veterans of the game, it lets you have weapons for Mastery that aren’t entirely useless, and opens up more weapons to use in late game other than God Tier Guns.

Edited March 21, 2014 by ensignvidiot

[Dtexas]

Imo, if they make it so that weapon damage goes up by level, then they should also remove mods that purely increase damage such as serration, hornet strike, etc etc. Or, at least cut them in half.

[VoidPunch]

 

 

1. However, even with a tiered mastery system like this you still run into the same problem of having mastery fodder once you tier up to the next level of equipment.

   So, I say let teirs 1-4 scale.

   Warframes at level 0 are really weak and don’t have much durability. As you level them, they gain more health, shields, and energy to use each level.

   Why can’t we have that for weapons? This would represent a newer tenno getting used to the ins and outs of a weapon and slowly becoming a master of said weapon.

   So with the above tiers in mind, this is how it would break down.

   • 1^st: Slow increase to 100% boost in weapon stats
   • 2^nd: Increase to 75% boost
   • 3^rd: 50% boost
   • 4^th: 25% boost
   • 5^th: And onwards would receive no bonus, a tenno would already be extremely proficient with anything he or she picks up.

   This system would do 2 things. Firstly, it would take pressure off of new players to get new guns as fast as possible to get to the next tier for better guns that ACTUALLY do damage. Secondly, it encourages retention of a gun in your inventory as, lo and behold, a lot of guns will do damage in mid to high level gameplay.

   As it stands, other than for bragging-rights and for the shear fact that they haven’t built anything else, who here uses a MK-1 Braton? Or a Skana? How about the Vulkar, or Aklato? Almost no one after they get to Mars. They just don’t do much damage to be considered viable.

    

    

 

You are suppose to feel weak at the beginning of the game, that's how every game works. It's basic game logic for a reason. If you do considerable damage as a fresh player in a mid to high level mission then there is really no intensive to get better. This game is about getting good gear, like most games like this are. Almost every single dungeon crawler, RPG, Weapon hoarder/collector style game has bad weapons for a reason. If every gun was good there would be no reason to get a new one. If you already start out doing good damage then there is no drive to get strong. Especially if your boost slowly goes away to the fact that there is none.

 

The helplessness and weak feeling in the beginning of a game is what makes you want to get better. The fact that your gun sucks is what makes you want to hunt for stronger and better gear. 

Edited March 21, 2014 by HandsOfnArtist

[ensignvidiot]

 

The helplessness and weak feeling in the beginning of a game is what makes you want to get better. The fact that your gun sucks is what makes you want to hunt for stronger and better gear. 

 

Aye, hence the % increase. a MK-1 Braton (base 16) gets 32 dmg base at max level, a braton (base 18) does 38 damage. It isnt this amazing buff that will have people at mastery 10 running around with Latos and Skannas all over the place.

 

Once you are at Earth, you wont feel completely useless and feel the need to do survival on mercury for a week until you can have enough mods to do enough damage to kill stuff. You attempt the boss, or to pass the whole area you will still need to upgrade, but the need to do so will not be as extreme. It takes the SHARP incline of "Get weapon, level weapon, make new weapon, throw old away" and smooths it out. Eventually you will still have people going for god-guns like the Brakk, but with this system the pressure to do so will be drastically lessened until you get to the outer rim ( or attempt T3 runs)

[VoidPunch]

Aye, hence the % increase. a MK-1 Braton (base 16) gets 32 dmg base at max level, a braton (base 18) does 38 damage. It isnt this amazing buff that will have people at mastery 10 running around with Latos and Skannas all over the place.

 

Once you are at Earth, you wont feel completely useless and feel the need to do survival on mercury for a week until you can have enough mods to do enough damage to kill stuff. You attempt the boss, or to pass the whole area you will still need to upgrade, but the need to do so will not be as extreme. It takes the SHARP incline of "Get weapon, level weapon, make new weapon, throw old away" and smooths it out. Eventually you will still have people going for god-guns like the Brakk, but with this system the pressure to do so will be drastically lessened until you get to the outer rim ( or attempt T3 runs)

I think misinterpreted your OP a bit and got confused on what you meant. I actually think this is a pretty solid idea now that I understand it.

 

If not this then they should get rid of serration and have this system increase your weapon's base stat without mods. Then you can throw on more base stat mods or others to make it stronger. It's the same effect but makes more sense.

[Tigercloud]

I'd like to get some discussion on whether this is true: "we all know that after a certain point all guns and weapons in the game become nothing more than mastery fodder. Bought, built, leveled to 30, and then discarded in favor for something else, or for your current loadout."

 

For me personally, I have fourteen different weapons I regularly switch in and out, and there would be even more if I didn't have to forma some of my weapons to get them on par with the rest. I do this because for me, the feel of the weapons, their look, their bling, and their bang are the fun part. Having to slightly change my gameplay because of how the weapon works is fun. It means the gameplay never gets (too) stagnant. I'd have even more guns if it was easier to level and forma them.

 

Primaries: Gorgon (Now Gorgon Wraith), Boltor (Now Boltor Prime), Hek, Ignis, Ogris, Phage, Drakgoon, Sobek

Secondaries: Akvasto, Brakk, Castanas, Wraith Twin Vipers

Melee: Orthos Prime, Kestrel, working on Jat Kittag

 

What I have and would like to use but are unformaed/unleveled/not powerful enough: Aklex, Scindo, Dread, Twin Gremlins

 

So I'd disagree that what you're saying applies to all players. I also think there's a lot of players who use suboptimal weapons because they LIKE them. I'd guess there's two basic pools of players:

 

1. Min/maxers: Use only the few and mathematically best weapons.

2. Weapons fanatics: Use whatever they like the most which they can still kill relatively efficiently with.

 

THAT SAID, I'm nitpicking with your statement, because your system basically allows for both types. Well done. What I want with the upcoming Focus system DE's talking about is to have two different Focus paths that basically cater to the two types of players; Weapon Finesse and Weapon Master. The first would allow players to min/max a few god tier weapons to the very best possible, but it would only be a slight increase overall. The second would allow players to bring many weapons up to god tier level, but not up to the highest of the high level of Weapon Finesse.

 

Anyways, that's all I want to say. De-rail rant offline. :)

Edited March 21, 2014 by Jiufengbao

[ensignvidiot]

-snip-

 

You lost me in your words. But im basing that statement of

"we all know that after a certain point all guns and weapons in the game become nothing more than mastery fodder. Bought, built, leveled to 30, and then discarded in favor for something else, or for your current loadout."

On the fact that everyone has limited inventory space, and a good many people dont extend their slots by that much, while a few can afford a great deal of them.

 

Like you i have about 15ish weapons and frames i play around with from mission to mission, and a few empty spaces for the aformentioned mastery fodder: things i hate using, or make no sense to use on high level maps like Kappa and Xini. i will genuinely be shocked and amazed if someone kept the very first skana they got for free until mastery level 15.

 

And yes, that is the goal of this system, to blur the lines separating the power difference between group 1 and 2, and old players/new players,

 

:D

[Tenzanar]

I occasionally do invasion runs with the starter gear; Excalibur, Braton, Lato and Skana. Level 30, formas and potatoes included. I guess it's a nostalgia trip or something :p  That's one of the reasons I'm a bit miffed over the Lato nerf.

 

It makes a fun challenge and a change from running with the end game gear. Reminds you how far you've come and also that good mods can make a lot of difference.

 

I think removing the Serration/Hornet Strike line and have the weapon increase power as it levels is a really good idea but I imagine the devs are wary of moving away from levels = mods model we have now.

[Monolake]

Weapons already dramatically scale with mods, potatoes and formas.

What doesn't work is that you reach high-tier weapons too soon and weaker weapons become irrelevant. 

And DE doesnt want to lock OP weapons behind higher mastery requirement.

[Davoodoo]

Proper tier system was mentioned few times here already, many used gorgon but now use wraith, its basically same weapon with improved stats, thats how tier system should work.

 

I cant and never will agree to soma being upgrade to assault rifles, its nothing like assault rifle and should not be treated like one.

 

Proper tier system, increasingly harder content(actual content not a bunch of new weapons) and balance should be top3 priorities for de imo.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Daemon-of-Dirt]

This system has potential to reduce the number of forma players feel the need to use...which for me is a great thing, though it might reduce the amount of plat spent on forma by other players.  I like the idea of a tier system for the weapons' development, I always kinda wondered why there wasn't one.  Mods are great, but generally if something levels up, the stuff you add on is secondary.   

[ensignvidiot]

I cant and never will agree to soma being upgrade to assault rifles, its nothing like assault rifle and should not be treated like one.

 

I just veiw that monster of a LMG as the end-all when it comes to raw rapid-firing damage.

 

Proper tier system, increasingly harder content(actual content not a bunch of new weapons) and balance should be top3 priorities for de imo.

 

 

Thats what i feel as well. Im kinda scared that the DE would introduce a 'Hard-Line' tier system. Basically forcing you to level Weapon A to even get access to weapon B and C, no mastery involved. And with the current wonderous improvements to weapon balancing, i wouldnt be surprised if it did happen.

At any rate, there is nothing in place that points new players at the guns they should likely go for to survive certain planets. Once again its "Go check the Wiki", or burn through things they dont want to use to get mastery for the things everyone uses.

[Davoodoo]

Thats what i feel as well. Im kinda scared that the DE would introduce a 'Hard-Line' tier system. Basically forcing you to level Weapon A to even get access to weapon B and C, no mastery involved. And with the current wonderous improvements to weapon balancing, i wouldnt be surprised if it did happen.

Actually i would accept that, i loved that im monster hunter better weapons were crafted from previous, worse ones.

Also it would make logical sense that once you get a hang of basic sniper rifle you can try super-advanced high recoil railgun.

 

But only as long as they would be same weapon with different skin and better stats

braton-> soma is no go no matter what.

 

Good idea would be actually to use different variants of same weapon

 

mk1 braton(bad)-> braton(all round better)->braton vandal(accuracy and dmg improved)->braton prime(all round improvement over regular, rof improvement over vandal)

Edited March 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[ensignvidiot]

 

mk1 braton(bad)-> braton(all round better)->braton vandal(accuracy and dmg improved)->braton prime(all round improvement over regular, rof improvement over vandal)

 

 

I like that progression, it makes sense (even though vandal would have to sneak its way out).

Though thats the issue, it makes too much sense. Because of this it will either get hated or not implemented.

 

personally, i'd like a branching Tier system.

 

Your Teir one line for the MK-1, would be from MK-1 to Braton.

 

Though once you hit T2, it would unlock the Prime, but also the Burston, Vulkar, and the Karak. You could continue down the karak line to keep getting all Assault Rifles from tier to teir, or go down either path to start working on unlocking other unique Rifles.

[Davoodoo]

I like that progression, it makes sense (even though vandal would have to sneak its way out).

Though thats the issue, it makes too much sense. Because of this it will either get hated or not implemented.

 

personally, i'd like a branching Tier system.

 

Your Teir one line for the MK-1, would be from MK-1 to Braton.

 

Though once you hit T2, it would unlock the Prime, but also the Burston, Vulkar, and the Karak. You could continue down the karak line to keep getting all Assault Rifles from tier to teir, or go down either path to start working on unlocking other unique Rifles.

Ofc you should be able to skip vandal.

 

i say that we should have t1 t2 t3 t4 and so on burston instead of unlocking them at t2.

 

Imo it would make sense to get gorgon at t1 gorgon wraith and supra at t2.

Supra is basically a gorgon which isnt hitscan and so is harder to use

Same thing with t1 mk1, t2 braton but you also unlock dera or tetra and it goes different branch of tree.

 

Example

 

t1  mk1 braton

             |                \

t2     braton           tetra

             |      \            |          \

t3   braton v  |    tetra mk2  dera

             |      /            |             |

t4   braton p    tetra mk3  dera mk2

 

They dont even need to have different skins(maybe some minor cosmetic changes or different marking like big mk2 on side of tetra) only some stat changes, giving de oppurtinity to get some extra money from sales.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[ensignvidiot]

 

Example

 

t1  mk1 braton

             |                \

t2     braton           tetra

             |      \            |          \

t3   braton v  |    tetra mk2  dera

             |      /            |             |

t4   braton p    tetra mk3  dera mk2

 

They dont even need to have different skins(maybe some minor cosmetic changes or different marking like big mk2 on side of tetra) only some stat changes, giving de oppurtinity to get some extra money from sales.

 

 

That is perfect, and it gives incentive to not dump potatoes and forma into everything all willy-nilly. And it gives you a direct reward for letting your Tenno become 'one with their weapon of choice'. At that point, should you max out a tier with a weapon you wouldnt feel as weak when being compared to people who only roll around with WAAC builds.