Wouldn't The Tenno Primes Actually Be "bad Guys"....?

[Brimir]

The way I see it Tenno destroyed Orokin empire that day. That means both goverment and infrastructure as well as military forces across the whole solar system. Which cut many distant colonies off as they now had to fend for themselves with the Orokin empire gone. You don't have to kill the entire civilian population off to destroy an empire, though there may have been civilian casualties.

 

It is possible that the Emperors used some sort of "mindcontrol" or "telepathic" powers to govern the Empire. After all, the Orokin definitely seem to have had a penchant for it. Once the Tenno struck them down, it could've caused the government and infrastructure to crumble as a result.

 

 

Also, Corpus are descendants of those civilians that survived after the crumble of the Orokin empire. That's why they hate us and call us betreyers.. they thrived under the Orokin until we destroyed them, making them have to fend for themselves. They also had to rebuild some of the infrastructure (Corpus are still working on rebuilding solar rails). Not sure where Grineer came from though.

 

I don't think the Orokin were separate entities from the humans. Most likely it was the collective name of the empire just like the Ottoman Empire or Byzantine Empire. In a sense, all Corpus, Grineer and Tenno alive today are still Orokin since Orokin=Human. There is no indication any kind of intelligent life other than humans even exist within the Warframe universe.

 

Especially the Tenno since they were apparently Orokin children being experimented on by the military.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Liminal]

The Orokin had it coming for filling up their lockers with useless crap.

 

(Also, that "Neural Sentry" tech does look pretty evil.)

Edited March 21, 2014 by The_Doc

[SilentMobius]

I believe a few things are getting mixed here. Prime items are the original Orokin designed tech, including the Warframe exosuits, that Tenno wear. As the war advanced, most likely the Tenno had to salvage and try to replicate that tech, making the normal Warframe/Weapons models we use today (otherwise how do you explain the Tenno in cryosleep having a normal Excalibur? :P).

 

If the Tenno _did_ do more elimination of Orokin (Or fought anything between the end of the Sentients War and entering Cryo) I'd imagine they needed to replace damaged Warframes at one point, and unlike during the Sentients War the Tenno wouldn't have the support of the Orokin. Much like the intro to the game you start in an Excalibur and according to the Lore entry that was in the pre-cursor to the codex that Warframe was destroyed before you were saved.

 

You were right, the Tenno threat is real. We found one drifting near Pluto but the Lotus knew we were coming. She purged the Cryo moments before we had them and sent a squad of Tenno to break our assault.

They escaped. We are working on tracing them. Separate this Tenno from the flock and it should be easy to kill. We shattered its Warframe and expect such an abrupt Cryo purge will have damaged its memories.

 

We anxiously await punishment for failing this task.

 

Hence you get to choose a new one before starting the game. I'd imagine the same sort of attrition would happen to the Prime Warframes

[Brimir]

If the Tenno _did_ do more elimination of Orokin (Or fought anything between the end of the Sentients War and entering Cryo) I'd imagine they needed to replace damaged Warframes at one point, and unlike during the Sentients War the Tenno wouldn't have the support of the Orokin. Much like the intro to the game you start in an Excalibur and according to the Lore entry that was in the pre-cursor to the codex that Warframe was destroyed before you were saved.

 

Again, there's no need for the genocide hypothesis to explain further fighting: whatever was left of the Orokin Military might've tried to hunt them down in retaliation for the murders of the Orokin Emperors.

[ShadowCore67]

Theory says the Tenno rebelled against the Orokin. The suits still belonged to the Tenno.

[SilentMobius]

Russell's Teapot fallacy.

 

That is all.

 

Not relevant, we already have a reference point. The Orokin are dead and gone, the question is: who killed them? The null hypothesis is that "Someone must have killed them" and here we have an incident of a group killing a large amount of Orokin including some Leaders (Enough to describe as a "torrent of blood" that "filled the stadium"), and act that (In any society we currently know about) would start a War.

[LoGicMoTion]

Because War,

War never changes.

[Ryme]

Theory says the Tenno rebelled against the Orokin. The suits still belonged to the Tenno.

 

Codex lore says the Orokin created the suits that the Tenno wear. Look under Excalibur.

[SilentMobius]

Again, there's no need for the genocide hypothesis to explain further fighting: whatever was left of the Orokin Military might've tried to hunt them down in retaliation for the murders of the Orokin Emperors.

 

Yes but Orokin Genocide means that they Tenno would produce an explicit lack of Orokin Tech. If it were a simple political reshuffle there would be no reason for a Tech shortage. Only the elimanation of production and the process of production would place prime parts in short supply.

[Otaiken]

Not relevant, we already have a reference point. The Orokin are dead and gone, the question is: who killed them? The null hypothesis is that "Someone must have killed them" and here we have an incident of a group killing a large amount of Orokin including some Leaders (Enough to describe as a "torrent of blood" that "filled the stadium"), and act that (In any society we currently know about) would start a War.

 

Romans are dead and gone. Yet Italy still exists. You seem to confuse empire with race (or species). Orokin is the name of the empire.. but the species is humans. There's still Corpus and Grineer around. The correct question is not "Who killed Orokin?" it's "Who destroyed Orokin empire?". Well, we know that, Tenno did. They didn't however kill entire human species.

 

When you kill an empire it usually refers to destruction of goverment, infrastructure and military forces. You don't need to do more than that as long as you're thorough (and Tenno tend to be). Without infrastructure and central goverment the far colonies will be cut off and they will have to fend for themselves.. so they form their own little states. Orokin empire is gone.. but Orokin themselves are still alive. They are just no longer called Orokin.

 

You could refer to worlds as "desolate" after such destruction. Just imagine the civilian population waking up one day and the goverment, military and any connection to outside is completely gone. That would leave the world kinda.. desolate compared to what they had before.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Brimir]

Not relevant, we already have a reference point. The Orokin are dead and gone, the question is: who killed them?

 

Again, they don't have to be dead nor gone. There is nothing that states that the Orokin were exterminated! The only thing that is confirmed to be dead and gone is the Orokin Empire. The Roman Empire fell too, does that mean that modern day Italians shouldn't exist?

 

The Corpus and Grineer are most likely their descendants.

 

 

 

Yes but Orokin Genocide means that they Tenno would produce an explicit lack of Orokin Tech. If it were a simple political reshuffle there would be no reason for a Tech shortage. Only the elimanation of production and the process of production would place prime parts in short supply.

 

Wrong. There is no lack of Orokin tech at all because any and all technology available is Orokin Tech! Both the Grineer and Corpus base all their technology on old Orokin technology. In case you've missed it, the main driving force behind the two is their lust for as-of-yet discovered Orokin tech. This is why they hunt the Tenno - the Warframes represent the epitome of Orokin weaponry.

 

The reason why Prime equipment is rare is because only the Tenno are sophisticated enough to properly reproduce it. All the Grineer and Corpus produce their own inferior versions of the Orokin tech they discover. Plus, as we can see with the Void Towers' Neural Sentry - getting your hands on the tech isn't the easiest thing to do for the Corpus and Grineer.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Llyssa]

There's still no evidence that they killed all the Orokin other than your assumptions. It only states that the Empire "fell" or "collapsed".

Stop making stuff up.There is not a single, solitary line that says "the empire collapsed".

 

For that codex entry, if that's what they wanted to say, that makes DE the laziest #@$@#$ writers on the planet.

For the whole lore, it makes the stalker the lamest #$@@#$$ villain in the history of lame !##@$ villains.

It makes the fact EVERYONE calls us "betrayers" the dumbest !@#&^$ nickname in the history of dumb @#$@#% nicknames.

 

Your "it's a metaphor" doesn't make any logical sense, doesn't make any lore sense, doesn't make any plot sense. It makes this the worst story ever written in the history of crappy story telling.

 

Nobody goes BILLIONS of years holding a grudge against AN ENTIRE SPECIES over the death of 1 guy. Think about that. The death of 1 guy doesn't instantly render everything else "silent" and "desolate".

 

Why the hell would a guy telling you why he hates your guts use METAPHORS anyway? The most I'll grant you is NOTHING. Outside of wishful thinking, your explanation makes ZERO sense at all, from any perspective, whatsoever.

[Brimir]

Stop making stuff up.There is not a single, solitary line that says "the empire collapsed".

 

Actually there are plenty. In fact, they even refer to it as "The Collapse".  What there isn't any mention of, however, is that the Orokin were exterminated at the hands of the Tenno. You're the one who needs to stop making things up.

 

 

 

From the chaos of the Collapse, they emerged, Violent hordes of decaying clones, overflowing from their toxic womb. They flood the Origin System, swallowing colonies whole.

The twin Queens, the SISTERS, have devised a plan to transform the scattered colonies into an Empire across the planets.

The Sisters have sent their most trusted brood on a vital quest - the TENNO, hidden and asleep, must never awake.

 

I already said I'd be willing to admit to the possibility that the Tenno killed most of the people at the ceremony - but to assume that it means that the Tenno went on a genocidal spree and exterminated the entire Orokin race (which is impossible because we have the Corpus and Grineer) just requires such a huuuuuuge leap of faith on your part. And I'm not willing to take that leap.

 

It is obvious that the Stalker's Codex entry is his first-hand account of a single-event, the savior ceremony. It is not the chronicles of the fate of the entire Orokin people.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Otaiken]

Stop making stuff up.There is not a single, solitary line that says "the empire collapsed".

 

For that codex entry, if that's what they wanted to say, that makes DE the laziest #@$@#$ writers on the planet.

For the whole lore, it makes the stalker the lamest #$@@#$$ villain in the history of lame !##@$ villains.

It makes the fact EVERYONE calls us "betrayers" the dumbest !@#&^$ nickname in the history of dumb @#$@#% nicknames.

 

Your "it's a metaphor" doesn't make any logical sense, doesn't make any lore sense, doesn't make any plot sense. It makes this the worst story ever written in the history of crappy story telling.

 

Nobody goes BILLIONS of years holding a grudge against AN ENTIRE SPECIES over the death of 1 guy. Think about that. The death of 1 guy doesn't instantly render everything else "silent" and "desolate".

 

Why the hell would a guy telling you why he hates your guts use METAPHORS anyway? The most I'll grant you is NOTHING. Outside of wishful thinking, your explanation makes ZERO sense at all, from any perspective, whatsoever.

 

Dude... Orokin were not some alien race. They were human empire. Are you implying that Tenno killed all humans? There are still many humans around in the Solar system. Tenno could kill off the entire military, goverment and even royalty.. since empire implies that there is some higher ruling class beside just the emperor. So yeah... Tenno might have killed the entire upper class of Orokin. But they didn't just wipe out humans as a species.

 

And distant colony that one day finds its goverment dead and it's infrastructure along with the connection to outside world (not that it matters, central goverment is dead) could be described as desolate and silent. Imagine someone killed off all of earth's goverment and military and then cut the power, internet, phone lines, satelites, etc.

 

It would be total distaster and chaos and yet 99% of the planet's population could be intanct.

 

Also, many people would die just because of that... think of the chaos, the wars.. the power struggles that would ensue. I certainly would hold a bit of a grudge against someone who caused that, wouldn't you?

 

Also, we don't even know what societal ctructure Orokin empire had. Maybe they had castes, from the little we know it could be that way? Your caste is esentially your extended family.. imagine stalker was lower member of military (guardian) caste. Tenno killed of thousands of his brethren along with the caste he was meant to serve from birth... that could cause some grief.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[NevanChambers]

Weren't Orokin essentially humans? Orokin is the name of the empire, not the species. But Grineer and Corpus are humans, so if we did kill all humans.. where would they come from? There's no other intelligent species in the solar system.. well, unless you count Infested. Though I consider them more of a disease, they mostly come from humans anyway.

Either way Tenno didn't kill all humans.

It is a complete unknown what then Orokin were. The only thing that can be said for sure is that hey exsisted and ruled the origin system. I would very much like to know what evidence those so sure the orokin were human have. The tech being designed in the way it is only implies a humanoid shape not necesarrially a human. Edited March 21, 2014 by NevanChambers

[Brimir]

It is a complete unknown what then Orokin were. The only thing that can be said for sure is that hey exsisted and ruled the origin system.

 

Given the evidence we do have though, it is probable that they were humans.

[Otaiken]

It is a complete unknown what then Orokin were. The only thing that can be said for sure is that hey exsisted and ruled the origin system.

 

Don't you think that there would be some slight emphasis on the fact that an entire human race was ruled by alien civilization in the lore somewhere?

 

It might have been a class or caste.. but I seriously doubt they weren't humans. Maybe humans altered through technology.. but aliens? I really doubt that. I know that DE said Dark Sector wasn't exactly cannon, but Orokin were in that game and they were humans.

 

Also, Oroking were kinda big on that whole mind control technology thing... and they ruled and empire and they fought someone called sentients. That sounds rather connected to me.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Rhundis]

I always thought that prime frames were just versions of the regular frames that were captured and corrupted by the neural sentry like the void enemies we fight, and for some unknown reason the corruption process only half worked due to some genetic abnormalities which kept them from losing their minds and becoming slaves.

That was my view on it, but only because its kind of hard to follow the storyline if nothing is really concrete fact and open to multiple interpretations.

[Brimir]

I always thought that prime frames were just versions of the regular frames that were captured and corrupted by the neural sentry like the void enemies we fight, and for some unknown reason the corruption process only half worked due to some genetic abnormalities which kept them from losing their minds and becoming slaves.

 

Sorry to spoil your fun mate, but the details regarding Prime equipment is one of the very few lore elements in the game that we can be certain about: It is the original equipment used during the Orokin Era.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[NevanChambers]

Don't you think that there would be some slight emphasis on the fact that an entire human race was ruled by alien civilization in the lore somewhere?

 

It might have been a class or caste.. but I seriously doubt they weren't humans. Maybe humans altered through technology.. but aliens? I really doubt that.

I just don't see why not. It's been thousands of years and no one seems to know who the Orokin really were lots can be lost in that time. I'm not saying they weren't human just using it as a basis for any arguements regarding lore is premature at best.

Really my issue is "this is the way it is" and not "this is what could have been" because both could still be wrong and the truth something stranger.

[Morec0]

Given the evidence we do have though, it is probable that they were humans.

Just my quick thoughts on this "Orokin were what?" debate:

 

The Orokin WERE human, but that as not the DE-FACTO NAME for humans. It was the name of their part of human society.

 

The rest of my thoughts to be found: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/176011-the-orokin-the-grineer-the-corpus-their-place-in-orokin-era-of-human-society/

 

So, in short: yes, they wiped out ALL OF THE OROKIN. HOWEVER they did NOT wipe out ALL OF THE HUMANS.

[Brimir]

Given that Orokin equipment is perfectly designed for human hands(and that their technology is perfectly useable and easy to understand by humans), their architecture is very human-like, and that the Corpus seems to have great insight into the Orokin culture (as if they had access to records/stories passed down from generation to generation) makes it seem pretty clear to me; they were ancient humans and the current human population are their descendants.

 

I mean, sure, they could've been terrible alien overlords.... it just doesn't seem very likely in comparison to the human theory. Occam's Razor and all that.

 

So, in short: yes, they wiped out ALL OF THE OROKIN. HOWEVER they did NOT wipe out ALL OF THE HUMANS.

 

That seems like an oxymoron to me.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Morec0]

 

That seems like an oxymoron to me.

 

Think of it like this:

 

You could wipe out ALL AMERICANS but you would NOT wipe out ALL OF HUMANITY.

 

Or, you could wipe out ALL OF AMERICA'S MILITARY/GOVERNMENT/PRIVATE SECTOR but you would NOT wipe out ALL AMERICANS.

 

EDIT: Note, I am NOT advocating the death of Americans. I am American, I would prefer to stay alive.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Morec0

[Brimir]

Think of it like this:

 

You could wipe out ALL AMERICANS but you would NOT wipe out ALL OF HUMANITY.

 

Or, you could wipe out ALL OF AMERICA'S MILITARY/GOVERNMENT/PRIVATE SECTOR but you would NOT wipe out ALL AMERICANS.

 

EDIT: Note, I am NOT advocating the death of Americans. I am American, I would prefer to stay alive.

 

There's a problem with your analogy: All human beings are not American.

 

The Orokin Empire spanned across galaxies (apparently) and included all the human beings alive at the time. There are no mention of other Empires like there are multiple countries other than America on Earth.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Otaiken]

Since the facts are almost exhausted at this point.. my theory for now is that Orokin society was caste based. It would make a lot of sense. There was the ruling caste, the military caste(s) and possibly some other ones like research case (or "builder/artisan" caste). It's said that Stalker was lower guardian.. is that a job description? Or is that his caste? It would make sense for him to be angry when Tenno killed off pretty much all of his brothers and the people he was meant to serve from birth.

 

Maybe Corpus are descendants of civilian populations or they are descendants of some kind of trader caste. That could possibly explain their worship of profit.

 

So when Tenno killed the "Orokin" it could imply they wiped out the upper castes of Orokin society like royalty, military and artisans. Leaving the rest of the humans to fend for themselves.

 

But that is just a speculation.. and knowing DE, the "truth" will be probably more boring than that.