About Pvp

[OniDax]

PvP is here to stay, its not going anywhere. They will make some changes when the time comes, when PvP is higher on their priorities.

 

I never said it was going away. But it shouldn't take priority over the current PvE unless the game is rebalanced for it. Right now it certainly is one shot kill or be one shot killed. What I said was that it's currently a PvE game, with a PvP mode, as that's the primary focus of the game, and it should remain so. Just like BF4 is a multiplayer game with a single player mode, because the focus is on PvP.

[HollowFrame]

Uhm. I think some people don't like PVP's simply because of the "bad record" they get in their profile if they lose. I mean, people in WF (in fact in real life as well), care so much about their reputation/record. People hate messing up their records, and losing a lot of times is pretty discouraging for them. A lot of people discouraged > a lot of people will not play > not much people playing > the more it becomes unpopular > the more people won't try it (nor have the chance to try).

Maybe if we remove the records, people will enjoy more without caring about how their profiles would look like.

And for the record, I love PVP's too. I only stopped playing conclaves since it was buggy long time ago. So buggy that even a self kill from Ogris will add one death to your record (this has been fixed already). You can tell it was really buggy back then that even people who have not tried conclave had some death records in their profile. That actually discouraged me playing. You keep your record clean, then some random deaths from some unknown reasons mess your record up (yes, I am was record conscious too).

I see no reason to remove conclaves, and lots of reasons to work on it. Cause yes, some people love PVP's.

[Katakuna]

PvP is not some mini-game. Its a complete game mode.

 

Pffha, that's a good one.

[.Talia.]

Pffha, that's a good one.

 

Its true. Its a mission node in the game as the Conclaves, its in our Dojos.

Its not just some easter egg mini-game.

[Zeful]

I am someone who has 0 interest in PvP. No matter the game. I am bad at it, I don't have the mindset or personality to find it fun or improve, and I'm not competitive.

 

So for me, the Conclave is something that I don't care about. At all. To the point that I don't want to see DE spend any resources to "improve" it when those resources could be better spent on improving the bits of the game I actually care about. Because game design is a zero sum game, resources spent to improve PvE are resources not spent on improving the rest of the game. And there will always be little things in the main game that will require adjustment in some way.

 

So while I'm not going to say Conclaves should be removed, or will hate people that play it. I'm also never going to, looking at an issue that only affects Conclaves, say "Eh that needs to be fixed soon, that's a major problem." Instead I will say "conclave is conclave, DE has better things to spend their time on than this." Because I don't value the conclave's existence. At all.

 

Sorry.

[OniDax]

I am someone who has 0 interest in PvP. No matter the game. I am bad at it, I don't have the mindset or personality to find it fun or improve, and I'm not competitive.

 

So for me, the Conclave is something that I don't care about. At all. To the point that I don't want to see DE spend any resources to "improve" it when those resources could be better spent on improving the bits of the game I actually care about. Because game design is a zero sum game, resources spent to improve PvE are resources not spent on improving the rest of the game. And there will always be little things in the main game that will require adjustment in some way.

 

So while I'm not going to say Conclaves should be removed, or will hate people that play it. I'm also never going to, looking at an issue that only affects Conclaves, say "Eh that needs to be fixed soon, that's a major problem." Instead I will say "conclave is conclave, DE has better things to spend their time on than this." Because I don't value the conclave's existence. At all.

 

Sorry.

 

I have to agree. And if they improve it, which I think they will, I don't ever want to see it take priority over PvE.

[Seraiya.Gier]

I could care less about PVP. As long as it doesn't end up screwing the PVE up with "Balance" issues. "Nerf this gun, it's too powerful in PVP!" You know, like Blizzard used to nerf classes way back when in WoW. Otherwise, PVP is totally fine how it is. An optional, unrewarding, epeen sword fight.

[.Talia.]

I agree that it should have less priority as other more important fixes. But its a part of the game and deserves attention too, eventually, when their list of priorities get smaller.

[Arlayn]

PvP is not some mini-game. Its a complete game mode.

Call of duty, Street fighter, Crysis, Even Transformers Cybertron has a REAL PVP complete game mode. What we have on Warframe is pretty much the equal to that of the flappy bird game. Its like how Tekkan adds that side scroller beat-em-up mode its not the main point of the game, and always barely developed as the game doesn't cater at all to how the system works. Its not a real game. Its a mini-game PvE just like PVP in warframe is a mini-game PVP.

[.Talia.]

Call of duty, Street fighter, Crysis, Even Transformers Cybertron has a REAL PVP complete game mode. What we have on Warframe is pretty much the equal to that of the flappy bird game. Its like how Tekkan adds that side scroller beat-em-up mode its not the main point of the game, and always barely developed as the game doesn't cater at all to how the system works. Its not a real game. Its a mini-game PvE just like PVP in warframe is a mini-game PVP.

 

Nope, its a real game mode. With lots of players playing there daily.

[KingTaro]

I'll try to reply to the main concerns of the anti-PvP community.

 

 

1. This is a PvE game and if you want PvP, there are a lot of games out there to choose from.

 

Yes, a lot of PvP games indeed, but not a single PvP game that is exactly like Warframe. To tell you the truth, I don't like PvP games, but I love to PvP in Warframe.

 

Anyway, the reason why the PvP community is so small is, because this game didn't launch as a PvE game with PvP support, nor is it advertised that way at the moment. And the reason why they can't advertise it that way is, because the PvP is a bit too unbalanced. So it has to be polished first and DE is doing a great job so far. Couple of powers and mods have been adjusted separately from PvE. Meaning they act different in PvP.

 

 

 

2. I don't want DE to waste their resources on PvP, while they still didn't finish the PvE part.

 

As explained above, if the game had its PvP polished, DE could start advertising the PvP feature as well. Meaning we'd have a new community that joined the game just for the PvP aspect. That new PvP comunnity would be responsible for extra resources for DE to work with. Maybe the PvP community would even provide more resources for DE to work on PvE content as well, while completely covering the PvP costs.

 

 

 

3. I don't want DE to nerf stuff in PvE, just because something is unbalanced for PvP

 

This has never happened and it will never happen. All the PvP changes made so far were only affecting the PvP.

To give you an example: Rhino's Stomp only knocks people down in PvP, while it makes enemies float in PvE.

[warthain]

Wrong. It's because this is PvE game. It's not a PvP game, never has been, and (if DE knows their customers at all) never will be. That's why it's not balanced for PvP.

 

If PvP is what you're looking for, you're playing the wrong game.

 

you can dream and fantasyze that you will never have pvp in warframe or at least more content, but the true fact is, many of the community wants it, and since lot of people in the community want it, they will do something about it, to improve it and give new game modes...  i dont mind it being on the lowest priority list atm... because i know that this game at some point will give us more of it... and you crybabys will have to deal with it... and say you were right.

 

pvp is unbalanced because you can take your moded characters and weapons ... if all your gear and characters became unranked when you queue for pvp... game is now balanced... cause you dont have extreme duration skills, or extreme damaging abilities since you only have 100-150 energy to play around with and no power efficiency / power strength to keep spamming them.

 

they just need to restrict some weapons out of pvp (prime weps, other weapons that can one shot people) and pvp is a reality a very balanced one.

[.Talia.]

1. This is a PvE game and if you want PvP, there are a lot of games out there to choose from.

 

Yes, a lot of PvP games indeed, but not a single PvP game that is exactly like Warframe. To tell you the truth, I don't like PvP games, but I love to PvP in Warframe.

 

Anyway, the reason why the PvP community is so small is, because this game didn't launch as a PvE game with PvP support, nor is it advertised that way at the moment. And the reason why they can't advertise it that way is, because the PvP is a bit too unbalanced. So it has to be polished first and DE is doing a great job so far. Couple of powers and mods have been adjusted separately from PvE. Meaning they act different in PvP.

 

Yeah i can't take seriously those spoiled guys that think we will go play other games just because they don't want PvP in Warframe. Every time is the same thing... "You want PvP? Go play other game." Dude seriously? We like Warframe, not only that but we like Warframe's PvP.

 

 

2. I don't want DE to waste their resources on PvP, while they still didn't finish the PvE part.

 

As explained above, if the game had its PvP polished, DE could start advertising the PvP feature as well. Meaning we'd have a new community that joined the game just for the PvP aspect. That new PvP comunnity would be responsible for extra resources for DE to work with. Maybe the PvP community would even provide more resources for DE to work on PvE content as well, while completely covering the PvP costs.

 

And let's not forget, there are completely different teams working on separate things in the game, the people working on fixes and bugs, are not the same people working on new warframes and new weapons for example.

 

3. I don't want DE to nerf stuff in PvE, just because something is unbalanced for PvP

 

This has never happened and it will never happen. All the PvP changes made so far were only affecting the PvP.

To give you an example: Rhino's Stomp only knocks people down in PvP, while it makes enemies float in PvE.

 

This seems to be the main concern of these players, but most of them never even played PvP so they don't know that the PvP changes to weapons and abilities does not affect PvE.

Edited March 25, 2014 by RexSol

[DocHolliday13]

Quite easily, sir. The game is focused, about 90%, on PvE. Having any kind of PvP content does not make a whole game PvP based. You need to understand that. PvP was added later, because the community was whining for it so much. And now they whine about OP content, they call for nerfs, and basically sicken the forums. I know that people like PvP out there, I for one dislike it as much as a man can do so. However, I don't think that DE's main concern at the moment should be balancing in the conclaives.

 

Actually, that's not quit true. Thus far, the game has been 100% focused on PvE. Enough people begged for PvP that they tossed in a small area for people to "PvP". But they never focused on it, in any way. And they won't, any time soon.

[Ionus]

Call of duty, Street fighter, Crysis, Even Transformers Cybertron has a REAL PVP complete game mode. What we have on Warframe is pretty much the equal to that of the flappy bird game. Its like how Tekkan adds that side scroller beat-em-up mode its not the main point of the game, and always barely developed as the game doesn't cater at all to how the system works. Its not a real game. Its a mini-game PvE just like PVP in warframe is a mini-game PVP.

Don't hate, I loved War for Cybertron for awhile.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Ionus

[Etsoree]

I understand lots of people don't like it. That's because the PvP mode is completely unbalanced, with many many weapons and warframes completely overpowered. Maybe one day they will focus on improving the conclaves, maybe do some balancing, or new game modes.

 

They had to balance a lot and stated some in patches due to being OP in PvP.

 

 

 Many players level and forma their weapon just to use them in the Conclaves. You remove that, and they will get bored and stop playing. You Anti-PvP people basically want it removed from the game, because you don't like it. I'm really sorry but that's not reason enough. There are others who like it. Its fun, if you get owned, its probably because you suck at it. Go get better, and you will have fun. Its part of the game, its not going anywhere, and have lots of potential whether you like it or not.

 

Proof, please, thank you. You contradicted yourself by also saying "I guarantee you all that there is a small community of players that play every day". Every time I personally try to go into a Conclave I wait for upwards of an hour without getting any matches, even after switching gear and trying to get into different levels. You're sounding like an elitist. You said so yourself that things are overpowered in PvP, so if someone has something that is OP, going into a very low level Conclave with just that, against lower leveled people, they're going to dominate it. DE can easily remove the Conclaves from this PvE game. I have seen a lot of threads stating that people don't like PvP, more, personally, than liking it.

 

 

Every time someone posts something about the Conclaves or PvP is the same thing, a bunch of tunneled-vision elitists who think their opinion is the ultimate truth and the developers are obligated to obey them. You people don't realize that PvP in Warframe Its completely optional and have no rewards or leaderboards whatsoever. Its simple, if you don't like, then don't play it.  Does it bothers you so much to see that Conclave mission node on the star chart? Just ignore it. No one is forcing you to enter there.

 

 

You're being a tunneled-vision elitist in this post.

 

For those who says this game is not about PvP, I got some facts for you: This game is about PvP too, there is PvP instances. Deal with it. They will never remove it. In fact, they will improve it as soon as PvP gets higher in their list of priorities. The reason why PvP is so unbalanced right now, is exactly because its in the bottom of their priority list. But eventually, we will have a more polished Conclave and even other PvP modes, maybe a leaderboard for it. Accept it.

 

I think DE has stated that this game is not about PvP, it's for PvE. Stop stating your opinions as facts. I would highly suggest you also reread your original post and look at your contradictions and rewrite it so you can better understand your more viewpoint.

 

 

 

Seems like my quotes also messed up a bit. Oh well.

[NjaII]

It's not I don't like PvP, I do.

 

But I don't like a lot of PvP players who only know the word "noob" "idiot" and so on.

 

I would play PvP more in Warframe with an option to hide all discussion from the other side.

[Zeful]

2. I don't want DE to waste their resources on PvP, while they still didn't finish the PvE part.

 

As explained above, if the game had its PvP polished, DE could start advertising the PvP feature as well. Meaning we'd have a new community that joined the game just for the PvP aspect. That new PvP comunnity would be responsible for extra resources for DE to work with. Maybe the PvP community would even provide more resources for DE to work on PvE content as well, while completely covering the PvP costs.

It's not a matter of cost, it's a matter of manpower

 

Manhours spent on PvP do not translate to an improvement on anything I care about. Therefore all manhours spent on PvP are wasted manhours. Furthermore increasing manpower to compensate does not result in a net gain in manpower. As any investment in manpower would only result creating a team to work on PvP exclusively, which can result in the update scheduling going wack waiting for PvP additions or a bunch of mandatory updates that only modify PvP, and are thus wasted time and bandwidth.

 

And this is in addition to PvP community members joining, whom many people have unpleasant interactions with and want nothing further to do with them. Many of whom are very vocal and open about being selfish in exactly the opposite way I am being here, demanding greater and greater focus on PvP and more and more resources spent on it with the defensive mantra of "Well you don't have to play it/If you don't play it doesn't affect you" which is both bad argumentation, and fundamentally wrong for reasons I outline above.

 

So yeah, this is not actually addressing the argument I have made as it fundamentally assumes the use of "resources" only refers to money.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Zeful

[warthain]

It's not a matter of cost, it's a matter of manpower

 

Manhours spent on PvP do not translate to an improvement on anything I care about. Therefore all manhours spent on PvP are wasted manhours. Furthermore increasing manpower to compensate does not result in a net gain in manpower. As any investment in manpower would only result creating a team to work on PvP exclusively, which can result in the update scheduling going wack waiting for PvP additions or a bunch of mandatory updates that only modify PvP, and are thus wasted time and bandwidth.

 

And this is in addition to PvP community members joining, whom many people have unpleasant interactions with and want nothing further to do with them. Many of whom are very vocal and open about being selfish in exactly the opposite way I am being here, demanding greater and greater focus on PvP and more and more resources spent on it with the defensive mantra of "Well you don't have to play it/If you don't play it doesn't affect you" which is both bad argumentation, and fundamentally wrong for reasons I outline above.

 

So yeah, this is not actually addressing the argument I have made as it fundamentally assumes the use of "resources" only refers to money.

 

want to make a bet ? that we will see more pvp content? i bet you 1k platinum that we will have more pvp content in the future, either you like it or not, because truth is, if conclaves were put into the game thats because there were more than enough players wishing for it, and if those ammount of players decide to pressure DE to make more pvp game modes and tweaks, they will do it, because players want them to...

 

you people can qq this is a pve game, and you dont like pvp, it wastes your precious development time for pve content, well i like killing mobs and midless not challenging npcs just like you do, but hey i like pvp aswell, so tough luck im gonna ask for more pvp content, because that is dynamic content, 1 fight is never going to be like the next one, i like the challenge, the nonscripted way players act behave and use abilities and shoot at me ... PvP will attract a lot more players to the game than if its only advertised has a coop pve game, it will actually add more replay value to the game than any other content DE can come up with andgive players way more reasons to keep playing it long after the boredom of doing the same pve missions over and over and over.

 

you dont like pvp tough luck once again, its probably because you suck at it, since youre not shooting AI scripted npcs which pose no real threat to you... you dont like being called a noob, you dont like getting steamrolled by another players better than you, dont participate in it, or get better skills with your fingers and improve your reaction times... but since youre so against it, better stay away from it and any future improvements made to it, cause its something we the pvpers wanted and you pve supporters didnt.

Edited March 26, 2014 by warthain

[.Talia.]

Etsoree, and your point is...? You don't have any argument, you just disagree with everything i said, trying to belittle my opinion. Lets go then.

 

They had to balance a lot and stated some in patches due to being OP in PvP.

 

 

Changes in PvP do not affect PvE. They changed a lot of abilities and mods already, and those changes in PvP do not affect PvE. 

 

That just shows that you dont know anything about Conclave. You just are against it without any reason.

 

 

Proof, please, thank you. You contradicted yourself by also saying "I guarantee you all that there is a small community of players that play every day". Every time I personally try to go into a Conclave I wait for upwards of an hour without getting any matches, even after switching gear and trying to get into different levels. You're sounding like an elitist. You said so yourself that things are overpowered in PvP, so if someone has something that is OP, going into a very low level Conclave with just that, against lower leveled people, they're going to dominate it. DE can easily remove the Conclaves from this PvE game. I have seen a lot of threads stating that people don't like PvP, more, personally, than liking it.

 

I can find a match in no more than a couple minutes, try changing the region. I'm not contradicting myself in any part of my post, read again if you didn't understand. 

 

I can also name a few players i run into every single day in the Conclave either East or West NA. I won't say their names here because i don't know if they would like that.

 

You're being a tunneled-vision elitist in this post.

 

No, actually i am making a point to stop the tunneled-vision elitists from speaking nonsense about the PvP in this game. If that's what you got from what i said then you missed the point. You know what a tunneled vision person is? Is someone that can't think outside the box, want their little world to stay the same forever. You know what a elitist is? Is a person who thinks their opinion is the only one that matters. I am trying to convince people to NOT be that person.

 

 

I think DE has stated that this game is not about PvP, it's for PvE. Stop stating your opinions as facts. I would highly suggest you also reread your original post and look at your contradictions and rewrite it so you can better understand your more viewpoint.

 

 

My opinions are just my opinions, i never stated them as facts. I suggest that you go back and read again because i didn't contradicted myself in any way.

 

 

What was the point of your reply? You are not making any argument here. You are just disagreeing with everything i said without making your point.

Edited March 25, 2014 by RexSol

[KingTaro]

It's not a matter of cost, it's a matter of manpower

 

...

 

And this is in addition to PvP community members joining, whom many people have unpleasant interactions with and want nothing further to do with them. Many of whom are very vocal and open about being selfish in exactly the opposite way I am being here, demanding greater and greater focus on PvP and more and more resources spent on it with the defensive mantra of "Well you don't have to play it/If you don't play it doesn't affect you" which is both bad argumentation, and fundamentally wrong for reasons I outline above.

 

Actually, manpower is a cost, even if you're employing volunteers. So you pretty much ended up saying "It's not a matter of cost, but a matter of cost". Anyway from your comment, it sounded to me like you didn't understand my 2nd point very well or didn't read it untill the end.

 

I'll try to rephrase the endpart: If DE polished the PvP portion and advertised it, Warframe might gain such a huge PvP community, that not only will the PvP cover it's own resources, it would generate enough resources to get more manpower to work on PvE content as well.

 

I'll give an example just in case it wasn't clear.

Let say there are 30 people working on PvE and 5 on PvP.

PvP gets polished and now Warframe has more resources to employ more people in their company.

They manage to get 30 more people to work on Warframe. Instead of putting all those 30 people they were able to gain through the resources from the PvP community into the PvP development, they decide to put only 15 people into PvP and put the other 15 into the PvE development.

 

Now, thanks to the PvP community, DE managed to make the PvE team grow from 30 to 45 people and the PvP team from 5 to 20.

I hope it's clear now.

 

 

As for "not wanting the PvP community" here on Warframe. You're basically saying that you don't want Warframe to grow if it means attracting people that you and some other members can't get along with. I'm sorry, but that's quite selfish, man.

[zergla]

As long as I'm not forced to go PvP to get something I'm fine with it. The conclaves are rather nicely implemented in that way.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

I think just looking at the choices DE has made so far even if they make more PvP content it's going to be a while down the road. Additionally, given the fact that the bad lands stuff is going to PvE you aren't going to see any "main content" that is direct PvP. They just don't seem to be going in that direction. Maybe one day you'll see expanded Conclave but I would be surprised if it wasn't closer to the end of beta.

*snip*

 

you dont like pvp tough luck once again, its probably because you suck at it, since youre not shooting AI scripted npcs which pose no real threat to you... you dont like being called a noob, you dont like getting steamrolled by another players better than you, dont participate in it, or get better skills with your fingers and improve your reaction times... but since youre so against, better stay away from it and any future improvements made to it, cause its something we the pvpers wanted and you unskilled pve carebears didnt.

and just as a great example it's comments like this that make a lot of PvE players not want PvP. Not saying it's all pvpers or even warthain (not to call you out, sorry). If I wanted to listen to people gloat and belittle people I would still be playing Halo.

[Zeful]

 

Actually, manpower is a cost, even if you're employing volunteers. So you pretty much ended up saying "It's not a matter of cost, but a matter of cost". Anyway from your comment, it sounded to me like you didn't understand my 2nd point very well or didn't read it untill the end.

Right, because I disagree with you, I must not have read your post correctly. I'm sorry Ego much?

 

And no, manpower isn't a cost. Manpower is the amount of work people can get done in a 40 hour work week. Simply multiply by the number of people working in said division. Which is why I went and defined manpower in terms of manhours.

 

I'll give an example just in case it wasn't clear.

Let say there are 30 people working on PvE and 5 on PvP.

PvP gets polished and now Warframe has more resources to employ more people in their company.

They manage to get 30 more people to work on Warframe. Instead of putting all those 30 people they were able to gain through the resources from the PvP community into the PvP development, they decide to put only 15 people into PvP and put the other 15 into the PvE development.

 

Now, thanks to the PvP community, DE managed to make the PvE team grow from 30 to 45 people and the PvP team from 5 to 20.

I hope it's clear now.

 

And if those 20 people worked for the PvE team instead, the team would by 65 and not 45.

 

Which is why, in my post I pointed out increasing manpower as a result of better implementation of PvP is not a net positive.

 

As for "not wanting the PvP community" here on Warframe. You're basically saying that you don't want Warframe to grow if it means attracting people that you and some other members can't get along with. I'm sorry, but that's quite selfish, man.

 

warthain (see below) is my counter argument.

 

 

want to make a bet ? that we will see more pvp content? i bet you 1k platinum that we will have more pvp content in the future, either you like it or not, because truth is, if conclaves were put into the game thats because there were more than enough players wishing for it, and if those ammount of players decide to pressure DE to make more pvp game modes and tweaks, they will do it, because players want them to...

 

you people can qq this is a pve game, and you dont like pvp, it wastes your precious development time for pve content, well i like killing mobs and midless not challenging npcs just like you do, but hey i like pvp aswell, so tough luck im gonna ask for more pvp content, because that is dynamic content, 1 fight is never going to be like the next one, i like the challenge, the nonscripted way players act behave and use abilities and shoot at me ... PvP will attract a lot more players to the game than if its only advertised has a coop pve game, it will actually add more replay value to the game than any other content DE can come up with andgive players way more reasons to keep playing it long after the boredom of doing the same pve missions over and over and over.

 

you dont like pvp, probably cause you suck at it, since youre not shooting AI scripted npcs which pose no real threat to you... you dont like being called a noob, you dont like getting steamrolled by another players better than you, dont participate in it, or get better skills with your fingers reaction times... but since youre so against, better stay away from it and any future improvements made to it, cause its something we the pvpers wanted and you unskilled pve carebears didnt.

Uh-huh. You are a great example of why, in the words of King Taro, "we'd have a new community that joined the game just for the PvP aspect" is not a point refuting anything, or in fact a positive of any kind.

 

You are insulting me for an opinion. That you have to do that to in-lieu of actual argumentation means you don't actually have an argument, and thus your entire post is meaningless.

[.Talia.]

You guys realize there are different teams working on different areas of the game?

 

There are separate teams for bugs and hotfixes, separate teams for new weapons, new warframes, separate teams for everything. When the time comes to work on the Conclaves and the PvP aspect of Warframe (and i don't expect this time to be any time soon) you guys can rest assured that no manpower will be taken away from the PvE aspect of the game.