Bows Versus Sniper Rifles... Some Remedies?

[[DE]Momaw]

Right, so, after The Great Bow Buff, I feel strongly that bows have basically completely surpassed sniper rifles. It boils down entirely to their critical hit performance. The end-game bows Paris Prime and Dread can achieve a state where every single fully drawn shot is a critical hit, which means that functionally their base damage can be considered to be 400% what is shown.  The sniper rifles do not have such reliability, which means that it is possible for one shot to crit and do 30K damage to the head and drop your target instantly while the next shot does only a few hundred. When you're dealing with slow-firing precision weapons, that kind of unreliability is absolutely catastrophic.

 

So... How can we fix this without putting any weapons in the dog house? Well...

 

First off, for the sniper rifles, I suggest that any hit to the target's head (or analogous weak spot for non-humanoids) is an automatic critical. Regardless of the weapon's crit chance or crit chance roll,  head shot = critical.  This sets sniper rifles apart from other weapons, all of which get a double damage bonus for head shots.  This makes the weapon reliable and consistent for players that can land the hits.

 

For the bows, I feel like they have encroached a little too far into sniper rifle territory. My inclination is that these need to have their critical chance backed off, but that the bow-only mod Thunderbolt needs to be improved. Firstly the "chance to thunderbolt" should be based on draw time, with snap shots have very little chance and fully drawn and aimed shots going thunderbolt all the time. Secondly, allowing this mod to grant 25% of the hit's damage as splash damage will it to scale with your weapon's mods and make it a distinctly different and useful option.

 

Thoughts?

[Cemges]

Thunderbolt is how you not use a bow. Bows arent superior at all, sniper rifles can reach a crir chance of% 75, which is consistent enough. They are just fine as nowm leave it at that.

[DuWryght]

I think the bow should ragdoll while the sniper rifles should have piercing. This will even them out a little. The ragdoll is good for some aoe while piercing is great for the normaly sniper linear shots. If they can't, sniper rifles should have use of thunderbolt as well (chain explosions). This coming from a guy that hasn't used a sniper rifle here (have Vectis and Lanka ready to go.. but not much will pry me from my Dread...)

 

Given the somewhat limited use of sniper rifles up close, I think they should have a passive percentage decrease in swapping to secondary weapons.

[NDroid]

The sniper rifles could use a buff and this is an interesting way to do so.

 

On the other hand, I don't see a reason to nerf the bows and I don't think they should be balanced around having Thunderbolt equipped. That said, Thunderbolt itself should scale otherwise it quickly becomes useless but it shouldn't be a requisite to use a bow effectively.

[Cemges]

Also only bow to surpass any sniper is paris prime, in which case, if loki prime came with a prime weapon, like vectis prime etc., i think they would be equalised. Paris and cernos are simply not up to level of weapons like dread or paris prime.

[DuWryght]

Also only bow to surpass any sniper is paris prime, in which case, if loki prime came with a prime weapon, like vectis prime etc., i think they would be equalised. Paris and cernos are simply not up to level of weapons like dread or paris prime.

 

I was thinking why in the Kappa would Loki Prime use a sniper rifle? Then I realized, it was because you used Switch Teleport Prime on his prime Decoy to reach a roof where he can dance merrily all the day, basking in the master, that is his race.

 

With his AkKunai Prime and Dual Kama Prime :3

Edited March 26, 2014 by DuWryght

[8bit_Ghost]

It all comes down to this major thing: sniper rifles are hitscan, bows are not. For some players, they would rather not deal with leading. Sniper rifles have a lot of advantages over bows (greater zoom, large ammo and mag capacity if modded right). Also, even though it would be super fun to watch my arrows explode all the time, thunderbolt is great as it is. As already mentioned:

Thunderbolt is how you not use a bow.

When using a bow, you're looking to hit one enemy accurately. Any other enemies hit with Thunderbolt is a bonus. If you want to play with thunderbolt power, equip a penta and a stug/castanas. These are weapons with great AoE and will always explode. I DO get why Thunderbolt is so great for you, though, because of its incredibly large blast radius. Sadly it doesn't do much later on because its damage doesn't scale (may be wrong on that but I think I'm right...).

I will say tho: thunderbolt against infested is super useful.

[Cemges]

It all comes down to this major thing: sniper rifles are hitscan, bows are not. For some players, they would rather not deal with leading. Sniper rifles have a lot of advantages over bows (greater zoom, large ammo and mag capacity if modded right). Also, even though it would be super fun to watch my arrows explode all the time, thunderbolt is great as it is. As already mentioned:

When using a bow, you're looking to hit one enemy accurately. Any other enemies hit with Thunderbolt is a bonus. If you want to play with thunderbolt power, equip a penta and a stug/castanas. These are weapons with great AoE and will always explode. I DO get why Thunderbolt is so great for you, though, because of its incredibly large blast radius. Sadly it doesn't do much later on because its damage doesn't scale (may be wrong on that but I think I'm right...).

I will say tho: thunderbolt against infested is super useful.

Exactly my point, innate blast proccing weapons suchs as ogris, penta, stug, castanas are out there if you need them. Thunderbolt is not the way to play with bows.

[Wurdyburd]

Compared to gun types like shotguns which have gotten variations out the wazoo, snipers haven't been touched in a long time. Back in closed beta, when there were very, very few enemies running around at any given time, it was easy to line up headshots, get insta-crits with them, and clear an entire room from a distance. Since the game has developed into a run-and-gun speed-clearing game, it's suicide to try and play with a sniper rifle in anything but the largest of rooms. Seeing some buffs to them would be a good thing.

As of right now, Warframe can be considered to have three sniper rifles. The snipetron/vandal doesn't count due to it's exclusivity.
Lanka: while dealing high damage, it's purely elemental shots and long windup time leave much to be desired
Vectis: I personally like the vectis. High damage, and it's one-shot chamber can by remedied easily, and benefitted from with Charged Chamber

Vulkar: not even going to try and justify that thing's stats. Ew.

 

Sadly, the only way I can imagine snipers to be viable again is if the game slowed RIGHT down. Enemies move to fast to get headshots, the scope kills close-quarters, and standing still to get shots off just gets you killed. Unless DE can magic up some crazy alternative use for sniper rifles, I think they're going to stay fairly dead.

[Noble_Cactus]

NO. Do NOT nerf bows. They fit fine into their high risk/high reward niche and are one of the few overall solid changes DE has recently made to this game. Thunderbolt only shines at levels 1-20, and after that, it starts hitting for diddly. You're sacrificing valuable damage by running Thunderbolt.

 

Snipers offer more reliable headshots from a safer range. The Vectis is still a great tool to use against tough enemies for this reason. The other snipers, however, need some individual attention.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Leuca]

I think if the snipers were all hitscan it would certainly even out the playing field a lot. I was so happy when my Paris Prime got a buff because I already had the catalyst+all the forma I needed for a full build; I haven't touched my Vectis since.

[SPiRALFACToR]

there is no reason long rifles should be weaker than bows seeing as they fill the same niche.

also, dead eye needs a big buff.

[[DE]Momaw]

Bows arent superior at all, sniper rifles can reach a crir chance of% 75, which is consistent enough.

 

75% to crit means 25% chance to not crit (or 18% with Split Chamber).  Since a non-crit shot often will not kill in one hit in the end game and require you to fire at the same target again, this effectively doubles or triples your "miss ratio" for a decent sniper compared to actual misses i.e. bullet did not connect.   This is not consistent enough.

 

 

Also only bow to surpass any sniper is paris prime

 

As I stated in my original post, Dread is also in this situation. Both bows can achieve 100% or more critical hit chance.

 

 

Sniper rifles have a lot of advantages over bows (greater zoom, large ammo and mag capacity if modded right).

 

* Greater zoom: Not an advantage since we are FORCED into having higher zoom, and most engagements in the game are simply not long enough to require it.  High zoom is a benefit in the few cases where long range shooting is required, and a hindrance the rest of the time.

 

* Bows have a "magazine" of 1 and almost no reload time at all.  Vectis has a noticeable reload time, and Lanka has a charge up time similar to a bow PLUS a non-negligible reload time.  The only sniper rifle that can achieve a higher practical rate of fire than a bow is the Vulkar... and that is laughably broken due to its long reload.

 

* Bows and sniper rifles both draw from the same ammo pool.

 

Thunderbolt only shines at levels 1-20, and after that, it starts hitting for diddly. You're sacrificing valuable damage by running Thunderbolt.

 

I think you missed the part where I said Thunderbolt should be changed so that it scales on your weapon's damage instead of being capped.  The cap is the reason why it only shines at levels 1-20 and I want to get rid of the cap.

[weijunsyu]

I think that there should be a buff given to snipers or some other game mechanic that changes the role of snipers and bows such that they are 2 distinct weapons BUT I do agree with the fact that Thunderbolt should NOT be a necessity in the use of bows. Mods should be present to only increase or change the stats of weapons to personalize the weapon and should NEVER be mandatory on weapons. If the sniper and bow were to be given a second look by DE it should be a change in the 2 where they are distinct BEFORE the addition of mods. I personally agree with the fact that snipers should do something different such as auto crit on headshots or massive innate punch-through. I feel that bows do not quite require a nerf or buff at the moment but if a rework were to occur my thought would be to:

1. Sniper: Give auto-crit on headshots and have massive punch-through

2. Bows: Change punch-through on full charge to ragdoll as well as maybe playing around with status chance and make the bow a massive status weapon instead of crit? (Might need slight reworking of base stats to keep damage constant without the crits.)

 

Thoughts?

[Skitheryx]

Also only bow to surpass any sniper is paris prime, in which case, if loki prime came with a prime weapon, like vectis prime etc., i think they would be equalised. Paris and cernos are simply not up to level of weapons like dread or paris prime.

Ohh man Loki Prime with Vectis Prime.... DE take my 140 dollars if you give us that

[achromos]

Can't the Cectis reach up to 1.8million or some absurd number of damage?

[Cemges]

Can't the Cectis reach up to 1.8million or some absurd number of damage?

Well max is 8.3 million

[yarash2110]

i do agree that sniper rifles need a buff but not by changing game mechanics.... how about just buff their damage? i dont think they do enough anyways, for example the bolt action one does less damage then dread that is a billion times faster, but i dont think that they are comparable, sure bows in this game are for some reason considered snipers but they are  a lot less suitable for long range shots, with the arc, no extra zoom, non hit scan, 

[Noble_Cactus]

I think you missed the part where I said Thunderbolt should be changed so that it scales on your weapon's damage instead of being capped.  The cap is the reason why it only shines at levels 1-20 and I want to get rid of the cap.

 

I do agree with that, but I don't agree with reducing bow crit chance. They are high-risk-high-reward weapons; buffing Thunderbolt but reducing their raw single-target damage could pigeonhole them into a non-sniping role and make using Thunderbolt mandatory. Which we wouldn't want.

 

The Vectis offers a safer, yet still reliable alternative to the Dread/Paris Prime because it is hitscan and still can deal crazy loads of damage to a single target. The Lanka and the Vulkar, however, need tweaks.

[sorq]

Well max is 8.3 million

Oh my. Do you have the mod configuration of this monster?

[georgewesker97]

Oh my. Do you have the mod configuration of this monster?

Look it up on youtube, some guy did it with Vectis.

[Cemges]

Oh my. Do you have the mod configuration of this monster?

look it up on youtube it also gave the build, however primed chamber was used

[Noble_Cactus]

Before anyone else asks, this is the Vectis 8.3mil damage video:

 

Oh my. Do you have the mod configuration of this monster?

He is referring to this video by Tenn Os

It's more a proof of concept because it's done on a low-level Butcher, with as many damage modifiers as possible applied to the target. Still, the Vectis is very powerful. Edited April 2, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Cemges]

Lets say it takes 30 secs to take this shot, it still tops 280k dps :)

[HansJurgen]

An innate punch through would make sniper rifles more appealing, for sure. They way they are now, I find bows better in every way save for not being hitscan.