Oberon And Nekros Really Need To Change.

[zombisa]

Just don't use them them if it's not to your liking, i think they are perfect just the way they are.

Oberon is one of the best well rounded Warframes ever, they can't all be OP gods.

 

P.S. you can't use that kind of language here, it can get you into hot water.

Yep, I like Oberon and i'm gonna build him soon. IMO he and Excalibur are examples of fine balance.

The only thing that is wrong with Oberon is his description. He is described as a paladin, and that is the same problem Volt has with his description - "potent alternative for gunplay".

[Darkjackal_2031]

What can I really say that hasn't already been said?

 

I don't have a problem with nekros not being the necromancer people expected. I don't have a problem with oberon not being the paladin people expected. I'm not going to base my opinions on the archetypes we all expect. I just don't like their abilities.

[Llyssa]

-not getting it-

Okay, let's try and state this another way:

 

This thread(and many others), proclaim "X FRAME IS WRONG BECAUSE IT DOES NOT FOLLOW THE TRUE THEME IT'S BASED OFF OF".

 

They then go on to list the "true" theme, and it's not one with any historical, mythological, or gaming accuracy at all, whatsoever, beyond what is found in world of warcraft.

 

Example: Paladins! Why is oberon not a "true" paladin? Well...

1. Paladins, in the most historical and mythological sense, are just regular old knights. Specifically, knights from the nobility. No magic powers whatsoever.

2. Standardized Gaming Convention, from thousands upon thousands of games: Paladins are very poor healers if they can heal at all, and generally cannot heal anyone but themselves. Paladins can smite undead. Paladins can summon angels. Paladins sacrifice themselves to protect others. Paladins use the power of their diety to buff their weapon attacks.

 

So, what is he asking for? More anti-undead power? Removal of magic? Self-sacrifice? No, "protection and quality healing!" That's not a "true" paladin in any sense of the word. But that's what's being demanded. So the only actual thing he claims is "wrong", he wouldn't want to correct.

 

That's just first up.

 

Secondly, again, as DE has said repeatedly, there's plenty of people that LOVE these frames just the way they are. They don't want the skills rearranged to fit some baseless theme. They actually REALLY ENJOY the game the way it is, and aren't hung up on some imaginary rules, that never existed in the first place, being broken.

 

They're not suggesting, "Hey, let's add a new class that's like what I think a paladin should be like", they're saying "Let's wreck a class that thousands of people love because it's not like the WoW version".

 

If you can't find anything wrong with that logic, you aren't thinking it through well at all. There's NO reason to wreck an existing frame because it doesn't conform to what you want, and there's NO reason DE would do such a thing. They even, specifically tackled this very question from one of the most adamant demanders. The short answer is "no". It's not a good idea, it doesn't help anyone, and yet, it keeps being demanded.

 

What if they never used the word "paladin" or "necromancer" for Oberon or Nekros? Would you recognize them as being those themes still? If yes, then they fit the theme you're claiming they don't fit. If not, then the only thing you have a problem with was someone, in your opinion, misapplying a name to something that never should've had it to begin with.

 

This is not constructive feedback. It is not helpful feedback. It is not feedback the devs will ever take seriously. So why does it keep appearing?

 

Ask for a new frame that fits your theme, or stop whining. Either or both of those make a trillion times more sense than "wreck someone else's favorite frame because I want my way".

[Elydir]

What if they never used the word "paladin" or "necromancer" for Oberon or Nekros? Would you recognize them as being those themes still? If yes, then they fit the theme you're claiming they don't fit. If not, then the only thing you have a problem with was someone, in your opinion, misapplying a name to something that never should've had it to begin with.

 

That's a paradox - they made Nekros in response to player suggestions for a necromancer character. They raised expectations with the announcement they were making a "necromancer" and "paladin" before any other information was released; those exact archetype names are all we had to go on for a while.

 

You can't have it both ways of saying "It's not for any theme or archetype" (like you're saying) and "it's what the players asked for" (like the devs are implying with their names). Any real-world situation where you ask for one thing and are told it's on its way, you expect that one thing on your plate rather than something that looks like it and tastes different - no matter how good that different thing is, you'll still be disappointed you didn't get what you asked for. And you claim that noting they got the original order wrong is... whining?

 

Yes, I realize that it's just a bit more complicated than the service industry. But let's say we did ask for a "real" necromancer like you're suggesting; how far do you think that suggestion will go before it's smashed, simply because Nekros already exists?

[darkone96]

DE really needs to look balance and rework all of the warframes after they're done with melee 2.0. There are just too many abilities that are useless. They should also work on animations and particle effects for all the abilities.

[Archwizard]

Standardized Gaming Convention, from thousands upon thousands of games: Paladins are very poor healers if they can heal at all, and generally cannot heal anyone but themselves. 

 

Lay on Hands, anyone...?

[Llyssa]

Yes, I realize that it's just a bit more complicated than the service industry. But let's say we did ask for a "real" necromancer like you're suggesting; how far do you think that suggestion will go before it's smashed, simply because Nekros already exists?

Why would they "smash" it?

The very first thing they said about nekros was that "it won't be like a traditional necromancer from any other game". That was the very first promise we got. They said it would be a "death themed" frame.

 

If someone actually came up with a rational, balanced frame concept based around whatever the hell it is they think a necromancer should be, by all means, it would get community support. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. We want more frames. They want to make more frames. It's already been stated that they want to have at least 2 frames of each theme, a male and a female, who share a theme but have distinctly different powers. So, we've already been guaranteed a female death-themed frame. It will happen. They've promised it.

 

So if you can competently make or help design a frame idea and post it up, they'll be more than happy to put it together. They added zephyr, they added nova, they love the ideas we have. So go on, make a theme idea for a female death frame that does whatever it is you expect a "necromancer" to do, refine the concept, and it will be done. We don't have a set number of frames needed, and it's been estimated that, based on the current math, to reach mastery rank 30, you will need to have 4x as many mastery points as are currently available in game. If all progression is even, that means they're going up to 90 frames and 1,000 weapons before anyone can be max MR.

 

So everything under the sun says that there's plenty of room for at least one, probably more than one, additional death-themed frames.

 

Lay on Hands, anyone...?

Can be used once a day, and does 2hp per level of the paladin, who has an average of 5+ health per level. That's a really, really crappy heal, and, again, once a day.

[Archwizard]

It's already been stated that they want to have at least 2 frames of each theme, a male and a female, who share a theme but have distinctly different powers. So, we've already been guaranteed a female death-themed frame. It will happen. They've promised it.

 

They've gone back and forth on that, and even if they did make a solid guarantee on paper, it would be a long while before we see any of them, much less Nekros - as he was the 15th release - simply because that takes resources away from primes and new themes to explore.

 

From what I recall of talks about gender-swapping, their initial view was "never", then "maybe, but it'd need new powers" - not "I promise". As recently as talks about the upcoming generic abilities on Livestream 22, Scott has expressed anxiety and even ignorance towards the idea of creating a fifth ability for each frame, much less a whole second set of abilities for each to swap between genders.

 

Sorry, but with the mixed signals we've been given, it's rational for us not to be quite as confident in this "promise" as you are, and to want to work upward with the base we already have.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Archwizard

[OblivionNecroninja]

Desecrate is a Lame Farming Ability and needs to go. Or at least be changed so that it just gives health, energy, and bullets. 
Shadows of the Dead would probably be a lot better if DE had competent AI coders. But they don't.

Soul Punch could be much improved by making the projectile bigger and making the projectile also cause knockdown.

I don't even know what to do with Terrify, though. It is awful. 

[Dako_Shark]

Not really sure how Oberon is a bad frame due to his skills. I pretty much main him and I never had issues. His healing skill isn't the best but it increases survivability by some, and his alt deals damage and drops health orbs from enemies. Both help with healing. I mean if you spec him for health and have rage on, you can pretty much always keep your energy and health topped up. Yeah, he doesn't really fit his description, but how many of the other frames actually do? I personally don't find issues with Oberon.

As for Nekros. I agree that his soul punch should at least have SOMETHING more then just damage, because it's kinda useless specially since it doesn't have any AoE or anything so only does single target stuff. As for Desecrate, it's pretty good since it pops up health orbs, which can't be gotten any other way than Oberon, and it increases the amount of ammo drops. Yeah it's not the best skill but it's still useful. And terrify is good for clearing out people around you, I just wish it had a bit more of a use rather then just making people scatter.

In the end it all comes down to what DE wants to do, the voice of few doesn't really make for solid factual info when it comes to warframe abilities. I believe that Steve has said before that for every person that says a warframe ability sucks and needs to be changed, there's another person saying that it's good and shouldn't be touched. Just trust that DE knows what they're doing. =P If it's bad enough that it needs to be changed they'll change it and I doubt they'll touch either Oberon or Nekros much. They already buffed Renewel thank god, Warframes were faster then the healing orb. XD

[Archwizard]

Yeah, he doesn't really fit his description, but how many of the other frames actually do?

 

How many frames HAVE set descriptions though?

 

Most of them take one very simple but fluid concept - the elemental frames get a lot of leeway as long as they deal their elemental damage, Excalibur is just defined as the starter whose only rule is "be simple", Trinity and Vauban are just defined by a role...

 

The only frames that actually have established class archetypes are Nekros (necromancer), Oberon (paladin), Ash (assassin) and Valkyr (berserker). Of those, Nekros and Oberon are probably the most egregious offenders, simply because their archetypes are the most often defined by games; necromancers are tied to the ideal of a swarm-based minion master, while paladins tend to be tanky and anti-undead. Nekros is more of a CCing scavenger while Oberon is squishier and more... anti-everything-but-Infested in terms of damage output.

[Llyssa]

How many frames HAVE set descriptions though?

 

Most of them take one very simple but fluid concept - the elemental frames get a lot of leeway as long as they deal their elemental damage, Excalibur is just defined as the starter whose only rule is "be simple", Trinity and Vauban are just defined by a role...

 

The only frames that actually have established class archetypes are Nekros (necromancer), Oberon (paladin), Ash (assassin) and Valkyr (berserker). Of those, Nekros and Oberon are probably the most egregious offenders, simply because their archetypes are the most often defined by games; necromancers are tied to the ideal of a swarm-based minion master, while paladins tend to be tanky and anti-undead. Nekros is more of a CCing scavenger while Oberon is squishier and more... anti-everything-but-Infested in terms of damage output.

Wait, so you're calling those "established", by some imaginary thought process, but you're not willing to accept "we plan on having multiple frames with powers based on a theme", which has been said repeatedly, as something that's a fixed point?

 

Also, you're using "egregious" wrong. They aren't offensive. They are specifically stated to be "different". To turn them into the garbage frames you keep suggesting would be "egregious". Get over it. Seriously.

 

Also, it's not "working upward" to remove what exists.

 

Your archetype idea makes zero sense. Your archetype is WRONG anyway. Your desire to wreck frames makes no sense. Your insistence that things they keep chanting at us are unlikely makes no sense.

 

If all you want is a "swarm frame", why does it even need to have the slightest thing to do with "necromancers" anyway? And supposing there was even a miniscule shred of logic to the "archetype" bs you keep spewing, what do you have against a game being new and original? It works. It's more popular than many of the other games that stick to the archetype. But gosh, it puts a bee in your bonnet 'cuz you just aren't capable of thinking outside of this pathetic little box you've built.

 

And again, if your whole argument boils down to "I want necromancers like some other game has, I MUST HAVE THEM NOW", go play that game instead.

[Elydir]

Wait, so you're calling those "established", by some imaginary thought process, but you're not willing to accept "we plan on having multiple frames with powers based on a theme", which has been said repeatedly, as something that's a fixed point?

 

Said and, as Archwizard pointed out, gone back and forth on. When was the last time they explicitly said "we're absolutely going to gender-swap frames"? And link please when you find it, as he did.

 

Because I see it all over the forums that they're last word was they won't.

 

Also, you're using "egregious" wrong. They aren't offensive. They are specifically stated to be "different". To turn them into the garbage frames you keep suggesting would be "egregious". Get over it. Seriously.

 

Easy there, grammar nazi. Bite a guys head off over word choice why doncha.

[Monolake]

Oberon is just bad and has no business past mid levels. I couldn't care less what he's called and what his role supposed to be, all his skills become very ineffective.

Necros for all his problems has more CC(even if its bad), scaling ult and one very good support ability (but TBH its only because survival oxygen and spawns problem that most people bring him, you are forced to spam desecrate if you want to stay long in void survival)

[Monolake]

The reason I want a reworked Oberon is because I want him to have the self-synergy DE was telling us about. SteveScott told us that all of his abilities worked really well together, and I'm not seeing that. We have a damage explosion, a damage AoE in a ground area, a Heal over Time, and a Damage with reward on Kill ability. None of those have any synergy together. Not like what Zephyr has with her ability synergy.

You combine Hollowed ground and ult cause it knockdowns enemies and they stay longer receiving more damage. 

[Seanjuju]

Nekros is a terrible frame overall. I don't really care how useful desecrate is, it shouldn't be a warframe ability. There are maybe a handful of games where drop-rate powers belong and this isn't one of them. Without his alt, Nekros would make a much better sentinel. Please let nekros be less lame and have his powers do stuff. 

[kaboomonme]

Just don't use them them if it's not to your liking, i think they are perfect just the way they are.

Oberon is one of the best well rounded Warframes ever, they can't all be OP gods.

 

P.S. you can't use that kind of language here, it can get you into hot water.

What OP says initially isn't wrong though. Oberon and Nekros aren't bad frames, far from it, but they don't exactly fulfil the roles that DE planned initially.

Also IMO, Oberon is wrong. From what I can tell, he is merely a Nuker with better survivability and sustainability. A battle-mage, if one were to make a comparison. Not much of a paladin, which was what everyone was excited about : A new playstyle to embrace. Currently, Oberon brings nothing new to the table.

 

People are forgetting the fact that this is not a MMO and every frame does not have to be like a class in WoW.

Archetypes were set for a reason : they are fun and viable. Just because Warframe doesn't follow the norm doesn't mean they shouldn't note how a similar role would contribute to co-operative gameplay, for better or for worse.

I personally have a strong dislike of MMOs as well, but they do have their merits.

EDIT : The WoW hate is strong with this thread.

Edited March 31, 2014 by kaboomonme

[Monolake]

Nekros is a terrible frame overall. I don't really care how useful desecrate is, it shouldn't be a warframe ability. There are maybe a handful of games where drop-rate powers belong and this isn't one of them. Without his alt, Nekros would make a much better sentinel. Please let nekros be less lame and have his powers do stuff. 

its a farming game so you got a farmer frame! 

[Riot_Inducer]

I really don't get how Nekros doesn't fit the necromancer theme. As a long time Guild Wars player almost all his abilities line up with what I've come to know as a necromancer. Both Desecrate and Shadows of the Dead invovle manipulating corpses to benefit himself and his allies or summon minions. The ability to send foes fleeing in terror is also a calling card of the GW2 necro. The only thing that doesn't really fit is Soul Punch but, really how many #1 skills are truly amazing in the first place?

 

I think with Oberon he just needs either a bit more armor to feel like a "kinghtly" sort or his powers need more support options for his team. What if smite's shrapnel balls healed if they hit an ally as well? Or how about allies standing on Hallowed Ground get a buff of some kind, perhaps a bonus to armor or health?

[(PSN)atpbx]

Shadows of the dead should be a fixed asset, it summons x demons that last for x seconds that directly attack the closest enemies for x damage ticks for the duration of the ability.

They draw all aggro while summoned and are invulnerable to damage (they are already dead).

They don't even need to be that damaging (his current ability isn't).

Soul punch should work in a 90 degree cone in front of him (limited by range)

Terrify should effect all enemies in its range not just a limited amount.

[Seanjuju]

its a farming game so you got a farmer frame! 

DE dropped the ball with Nekros. 

 

Won't someone help the lamest frame. I like shadows of the dead but it can't carry a whole frame.

[Lyxolf]

I want to petition to remove Oberon's Hallowed Ground and replace it with a team buff. 

I kinda thought of a cool idea to make a health buffer, where during the activated duration, shields can be damaged, but health cannot, after the duration, all damage that was taken would do something.

 

Either: Be shoved into the shields for instant shield repair, damage enemies (better as he's supposed to be an offensive support,) or, like melee channel, the damage done is channeled into the active weapon, and is added as extra damage to the next shot. Something like that.

 

As for Renewal, I have my Oberon setup to heal 31HP/s infinitely, but.

200 HP@Max base? DE, pls.

400 at least.

We all know people don't like to hit their health bar to begin with, but I'm sure we shouldn't have to cast an abilities twice to get the desired effect.

 

Smite and Reckoning are fine, though smite could use some work (streamers need tracking, or something that makes that ability viable, like initial damage, and the enemy goes boom when killed.

 

I DUNNO!

[theammostore]

You combine Hollowed ground and ult cause it knockdowns enemies and they stay longer receiving more damage. 

BUt that's not all of his abilities. THat's two. DE advertised ALL of his abilities would have synergy, to which I was expecting something along the lines of what Zephyr has. A launch and aerial dash ability, a slam attack that does damage based on how high up she is, an ability to grant her protection from the only type of enemy able to hit her (ranged units shooting her while she is in the air), and an ability that launches enemies up into the air. That's amazing self synergy, and that's what I was hoping for with Oberon, not just 1/2

[(PSN)yeater42]

The point is, DE has officially said, "unless something's really wrong, we're not changing it".

 

And yet, still, these threads creep up.

 

There's nothing "wrong", the entire point of the thread is "it isn't a WoW clone! Why isn't it a WoW clone? Make it a WoW clone!"

 

Over and over and over and over again.

 

It would be so nice if those people would just go play WoW already.

I would be amazed if you didn't main Rhino LOL

[Llyssa]

I would be amazed if you didn't main Rhino LOL

Actually, I main nekros, oberon, and zephyr.

 

So when threads like these keep showing up, it really makes me wonder why people keep posting over and over that my favorite frames are "totally useless" and the fact I get tons of mileage out of all of the skills means they're "totally worthless" and "horrible".

 

An average player has spent less time playing the game in total than I have on either nekros or oberon alone.

 

So from my perspective, you're a bunch of clueless, angry newbies who need to either go back to the game they keep wanting to wreck my favorite frames to match, shut up, or say something constructive or useful.

 

I don't want my frames wrecked to match your lack of creativity. That's not useful or constructive. You clearly do NOT play these frames if you're having such troubles with their skills. If you want a frame to do whatever theme you've come up with, SUGGEST A NEW ONE.

 

I'm sorry you can't use oberon well. I'm sorry you can't figure out how to play nekros. I like them the way they are. I wouldn't have hundreds of hours of playtime on them otherwise.

 

I feel zero sympathy at all for any of this.