I Love It, But... Please Address This Issue

[Xen0sys]

Then why have the devs said they don't want to introduce any more elements (like laser doors) that would slow down the pace of the game? Oh, right. Because the game is supposed to be fast.

That is an illogical jump. It just means that where it is now is good. The fact that they added 2 person doors and laser doors at all means they don't want it to be super fast actually.

You are using logic of the extremes, which is never rational for things in the real world.

If they didn't want it to be slow, they should have made something kill slow players, right? I am not opposed to something to speed up the slowest of the slow but they aren't forcing anyone into anything.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Tsukinoki]

Then why have the devs said they don't want to introduce any more elements (like laser doors and double doors) that would slow down the pace of the game? Oh, right. Because the game is supposed to be fast.

Just because its supposed to be doesnt mean that its invalid to do it any other way.

[Aggh]

Just because its supposed to be doesnt mean that its invalid to do it any other way.

It does mean that introducing elements that slow down the pace of game play is a bad thing. The onus is on you to come up with a way to encourage people to not mindlessly rush the levels without slowing the game down. Because that's the one thing that can't be allowed to happen.

[Xen0sys]

The devs are in contrast, considerate of everyone and all of their play-styles. That is their responsibility.

They think they have a good balance right now which is why they won't necessarily add things to slow the game down, not at all because it is supposed to be fast, which is your own interpretation.

[Tsukinoki]

It does mean that introducing elements that slow down the pace of game play is a bad thing. The onus is on you to come up with a way to encourage people to not mindlessly rush the levels without slowing the game down. Because that's the one thing that can't be allowed to happen.

And let me guess, it cant be allowed to happen because you wouldnt have fun forcing people to rush anymore?

[Aggh]

And let me guess, it cant be allowed to happen because you wouldnt have fun forcing people to rush anymore?

No, because the game is supposed to be fast. And the devs have said they don't want to slow down the pace of gameplay any further.

[Xen0sys]

And let me guess, it cant be allowed to happen because you wouldnt have fun forcing people to rush anymore?

Nothing should force anyone to slow down AND Nothing should force anyone to speed up

OR

Something should force anyone to slow down AND Something should force anyone to speed up

That is a mathematical equality. Currently we are in a mathematical inequality where:

Nothing forces anyone to slow down AND Something forces someone to speed up

The doors are a minor roadblock that does not balance the inequality. That would be like saying:

Having to wait at a door is EQUAL to losing out on mod drops

Which it is not.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Xen0sys]

No, because the game is supposed to be fast. And the devs have said they don't want to slow down the pace of gameplay any further.

RELAX!

No one is going to make the game slower! Your play-style is safe.

You are simply argueing to defend rudeness.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

RELAX!

No one is going to make the game slower! Your play-style is safe.

You are simply argueing to defend rudeness.

Nobody. Right. Except you are:

More double doors are actually a great solution to single show rushers. If two people are rushing, no problem - they open it when they get there. 50/50 stays 50/50.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Aggh

[Xen0sys]

And the devs have said they don't want to slow down the pace of gameplay any further.

What I said is "no one is going to" - I certainly can't though that's nice of you to think I can. But I thought you knew that... ^

What a valid point you bring up - double doors don't actually affect anyone except rude single solo'ers.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

What I said is "no one is going to" - I certainly can't though that's nice of you to think I can. But I thought you knew that... ^

What a valid point you bring up - double doors don't actually affect anyone except rude single solo'ers.

They affect everyone. Even if people get there at the same time every time (very unlikely), having to open up more doors means you're wasting time opening the door and waiting for it to open. Adding more of that means that progression through the level will slow down regardless of whether you're rushing or not.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Aggh

[Xen0sys]

They affect everyone. Even if people get there at the same time every time (very unlikely), having to open up more doors means you're wasting time opening the door and waiting for it to open. Adding more of that means that progression through the level will slow down regardless of whether you're rushing or not.

This is funny - I have to ask but are you challenged? Opening doors takes 2 seconds, maybe 3 unless...

A group of rushers gets there at the same time, 2 seconds later - door opened and more rushing. (I am a team rusher btw)

The only time this would be an issue is if you should be playing solo and abandoned your team far behind - then yes, you may be waiting but that's your fault for not playing solo.

You might lose a total of 30 seconds (being very generous here) in a whole map if there were 4 or 5 doors, which is still half the time it takes to wait for your group if you left them behind (60 seconds) and there's never been more than 2 as far as I've seen.

I'd be happy to make a video if you need help opening doors efficiently.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

This is funny - I have to ask but are you challenged? Opening doors takes 2 seconds, maybe 3 unless...

A group of rushers gets there at the same time, 2 seconds later - door opened and more rushing. (I am a team rusher btw)

The only time this would be an issue is if you should be playing solo and abandoned your team far behind - then yes, you may be waiting but that's your fault for not playing solo.

You might lose a total of 30 seconds in a whole map if there were 4 or 5 doors, which is still half the time it takes to wait for your group if you left them behind (60 seconds).

I'd be happy to make a video if you need help opening doors efficiently.

That's 30 seconds that I wouldn't otherwise have to waste, and only if team mates are keeping perfect pace, don't have any lag issues (which can cause issues with pressing the button at the same time). It also assumes that wasting that extra time waiting for team mates won't mean more mobs will spawn, thus having to kill them before you can open the door. On corpus missions it means having to do this on top of taking on the cameras.

It all adds up to wasting time that wouldn't otherwise have to be wasted. Thus it slows down the pace of gameplay.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Aggh

[Xen0sys]

That's 30 seconds that I wouldn't otherwise have to waste, and only if team mates are keeping perfect pace, don't have any lag issues (which can cause issues with pressing the button at the same time). It also assumes that wasting that extra time waiting for team mates won't mean more mobs will spawn, thus having to kill them before you can open the door. On corpus missions it means having to do this on top of taking on the cameras.

It all adds up to wasting time that wouldn't otherwise have to be wasted. Thus it slows down the pace of gameplay.

Are you on speed? 30 seconds is nothing. And again, I rush - with a group.

Almost every group I play with is capable enough to stick together in an under 10 second window. If you're as good as you say, you should be able to ride someone &#! the whole game. You'd have my respect.

I just hit x until it opens - no lag issues are severe enough to not interpret keyboard presses. And honestly, you're making the claim that at least half the group is lagging so bad they can't press x? Upgrade your internet.

More mobs won't spawn in 30 seconds - and wait - I thought you liked killing mobs? (You claim to rush and kill them all - or almost all) What else would you do if you didn't kill things - that's kind of the game.

You can open the door even if mobs are around. I'm glad to hear you are courteous enough to not ignore mobs at the door though.

So go blame the devs for the cameras, not slow people. Honestly, a camera takes 1 shot and a door takes 1 well synchronized button press. That's childs play.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

Are you on speed? 30 seconds is nothing. And again, I rush - with a group.

Almost every group I play with is capable enough to stick together in an under 10 second window. If you're as good as you say, you should be able to ride someone &#! the whole game. You'd have my respect.

I just hit x until it opens - no lag issues are severe enough to not interpret keyboard presses. And honestly, you're making the claim that at least half the group is lagging so bad they can't press x? Upgrade your internet.

More mobs won't spawn in 30 seconds - and wait - I thought you liked killing mobs?

You can open the door even if mobs are around. I'm glad to hear you are courteous enough to not ignore mobs at the door though.

So go blame the devs for the cameras, not slow people. Honestly, a camera takes 1 shot and a door takes 1 well synchronized button press.

And mobs can easily spawn within 30 seconds. The game is constantly making decisions on when and where to spawn mobs based on how you progress through the level.

When some levels can be run in a handful of minutes not even rushing, 30 seconds is actually a lot. It's all little S#&$ that adds up to slowing down the game.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Aggh

[Xen0sys]

In those games are there too many doors? Is there even enough time for the group to be split up or left behind?

No. So that's not what were talking about.

You're also selectively responding - respond to everything I say if you want to make a valid argument.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

In those games are there too many doors? Is there even enough time for the group to be split up or left behind?

No. So that's not what were talking about.

What you were talking about was adding more doors.

Here, your own words, again

More double doors are actually a great solution to single show rushers. If two people are rushing, no problem - they open it when they get there. 50/50 stays 50/50.

It's a proposed solution, that you agreed to. That would slow down the pace of the game.

Now then, please come up with a solution for preventing rushing that will not slow down the game. Otherwise this whole thread is pointless.

[Xen0sys]

The issue is that rushers (never stops unless necessary) can assert a rush game while slow people (pick up nearly everything and kill every mob) cannot assert a slow game. That is inequality and should be fixed. No rusher should be able to force a slow person to rush and no slow person should be able to force a rusher to slow down.

What's a solution?

Scenario 1:

If a rusher gets so far ahead of the group of people, disconnect him/her from the session seemlessly migratingg him/her into a solo session - problem solved. Rusher rushes and the group of people are not affected and can go at their pace. Meanwhile it mattered not that the rusher was in a group at all and should have been playing solo.

Scenario 2:

If a mad slow, like sluggishly far behind, guy is otherwise contributing nothing to a group up ahead, disconnect him/her from the session seemlessly migrating him/her into a solo session. Meanwhile it mattered not that the slow person was in a group at all and should have been playing solo.

Both cases constitute a playstyle that is in no way a cooporative playstyle.

Scenario 3:

2 rushers and 2 moderately paced individuals get separated by a set distance - split the session into 2 sessions - problem solved.

If you are not together with the group, or at least one other player, why are you not playing solo/privately?

All the same problem with the same solution for all.

--------------------

2 player yellow doors don't cause a problem if your in a solo game so more of them would help. Just the same though, a player who is behind ought to have something creeping up from behind him making him move on a little faster. Balance.

None of this changes that in both extreme cases, there are elements of disregard and selfishness EXCEPT that a person lagging behind doesn't do anything to inhibit a rusher (aside from a 1 minute wait) while a rusher forces others to attempt to keep up to gather exp/mods and what not.

A good teamate is considerate and will wait (not for absurdly long, but at least a minute or 2). There's plenty of inconsiderate $&*^s who won't even hold an elevator for 30 seconds. But just the same.. Someone may be holding an elevator for someone who isn't coming anytime soon.

If this has been suggested already, then great.

Alternatively it has been suggested that those who finish can be extracted early on their own but that doesn't help that because of one person, the rest of the group loses out on kills that should have been done as a group - in a coop game.

------------------------------

It appears that the method to do this is oh so close to being active right now. All that is missing is an event that checks player distances. If the greatest distance between any two players is greater than 100 (or 200 or whatever) feet from the next closest player, that player is now isolated. It works forwards, backwards, upwards, sidewards, you name it.

Split the session into two and re-poll the game server with new player counts so new people can join up on these two new sessions. Rinse and repeat.

This is targeting an automated method for resolving the split group issue. A warning timer could pop up on the isolated individuals screen (out of the way) letting him/her know that they will be migrated into a new session if they remain far away from the group.

It is as much the duty of the group as the rusher/turtle to remain together or if they choose not to, then so be it - new session for you.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Cakes]

Actually, if three people not making it to the extraction triggers no one getting the end of mission credit rewards, half the reason why people rush ahead solo is now made moot.

Supplement that with the extraction timer being reset to 60 seconds every time someone new enters the extraction point (keeping auto-extract when everyone is accounted for and the timer doing a full reset only if everyone leaves the extraction point) and even a non-sprint modded Rhino can reasonably make it to the extraction point if the rest of the team makes it there in a piecemeal fashion.

Hell, teams could troll the rusher this way.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Cakes

[Xen0sys]

Actually, if three people not making it to the extraction triggers no one getting the end of mission credit rewards, half the reason why people rush ahead solo is now made moot.

Supplement that with the extraction timer being reset to 60 seconds every time someone new enters the extraction point (keeping auto-extract when everyone is accounted for and the timer doing a full reset only if everyone leaves the extraction point) and even a non-sprint modded Rhino can reasonably make it to the extraction point if the rest of the team makes it there in a piecemeal fashion.

Hell, teams could troll the rusher this way.

To an extent. If that is the case, I'd imagine that's less favorable to the wider audience. Rushers might not even know that is happening and ruin it for everyone for instance - it almost makes it worse, unless they make themselves aware.

While I agree with that, it wouldn't appease poor Aggh here who likes to go fast.

Getting into trying to balance slow/fast is ultimately going to even out gameplay to the middle range. The only I can see how to allow people to get fast and slow at the same time is to not have them play together.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

Actually, if three people not making it to the extraction triggers no one getting the end of mission credit rewards, half the reason why people rush ahead solo is now made moot.

Supplement that with the extraction timer being reset to 60 seconds every time someone new enters the extraction point (keeping auto-extract when everyone is accounted for and the timer doing a full reset only if everyone leaves the extraction point) and even a non-sprint modded Rhino can reasonably make it to the extraction point if the rest of the team makes it there in a piecemeal fashion.

Hell, teams could troll the rusher this way.

Do it this way only reset the timer only once. If you've fallen behind by a more than two minutes it's not a play style any more.

Alternatively there could be a vote system to increase the end mission timer, personally I think a max of 1:30 is the furthest it should go. Two minutes is a stretch.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Aggh

[Xen0sys]

Do it this way only reset the timer only once. If you've fallen behind by a more than two minutes it's not a play style any more.

Alternatively there could be a vote system to increase the end mission timer, personally I think a max of 1:30 is the furthest it should go. Two minutes is a stretch.

Lol.. yeah, 2 minutes behind is pretty far behind. Unless you are the one who is 2 minutes ahead. That would generally mean you skipped stuff or your whole team are turtles.

Vote system - extremely viable.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Xen0sys

[Aggh]

Lol.. yeah, 2 minutes behind is pretty far behind. Unless you are the one who is 2 minutes ahead. That would generally mean you skipped stuff or your whole team are turtles.

Anyone going at a reasonable pace that can carry their own weight won't fall behind by a whole two minutes.

[Xen0sys]

Anyone going at a reasonable pace that can carry their own weight won't fall behind by a whole two minutes.

When your right, your right.

[KazyJumps]

If this has been suggested already, then great.

Alternatively it has been suggested that those who finish can be extracted early on their own but that doesn't help that because of one person, the rest of the group loses out on kills that should have been done as a group - in a coop game.

------------------------------

It appears that the method to do this is oh so close to being active right now. All that is missing is an event that checks player distances. If the greatest distance between any two players is greater than 100 (or 200 or whatever) feet from the next closest player, that player is now isolated. It works forwards, backwards, upwards, sidewards, you name it.

Split the session into two and re-poll the game server with new player counts so new people can join up on these two new sessions. Rinse and repeat.

This is targeting an automated method for resolving the split group issue. A warning timer could pop up on the isolated individuals screen (out of the way) letting him/her know that they will be migrated into a new session if they remain far away from the group.

It is as much the duty of the group as the rusher/turtle to remain together or if they choose not to, then so be it - new session for you.

I dislike your 'distance cause disconnect and separation of game sessions' solution because sometimes in private games me and my friends split up to get the datamasses in spy missions (pair off when two separate doors are marked as objective doors on the minimap) and that would disconnect us if we ended up too far apart doing this.

Simply letting people extract on their own, probably through a promt that says "extract or continue" in a similar way to how defence missions give a popup seems like a very easy to implement solution that can only leave people either happy, or happier. Rushers aren't affected at all, they get to the end and maybe even get to extract faster (can reduce the 60 second wait time) everyone else isn't forced to exit the mission before they want to, win win.

ps, personally I generally do what the group wants, unless they are exploring not just side rooms (the little rooms with loot lockers) but are exploring the entire mission (ie, they will explore every direction other than the one that is marked as the objective first) I'm willing to be a bit ahead of the group cos they're looting lockers on the way and catch up during the next fight, but if they aren't even going in the right direction.... Both people who rush without killing, and people who explore the entire map, under the current system, should be forming private or solo games, both systems negatively impact the game they join and i have personally experienced both (you can tell people are not killing because at the end, in the stats, they have no kills, and it's easy to see if someone is in full map exploration mode). People who move fast are fun, people who move a bit slow are fun, I don't mind either, just hate the extremes. Under the system I described above, it matters much less and I don't care if they join pugs.