Tax Free Solar Rails & Why It's Bad

[Hyunsai]

Every Tax Free Sector is being contested.

 

You honestly thought they wouldn't ? People want  action and prestige, even if they lose ressources.

 

The only problem now is that some clans are likely to never contest anything giving the few Sectors available.

 

----------------------

Otherwise, I m disappointed by the Infested only faction in Dark Sectors. Most easy and boring gameplay ever. I heard they wanted to revamp Infested, ETA on this ?

[Fezairin]

I'm someone who actually enjoys PVP. But this surely isn't the game I go to to get my PVP kicks.

I'm very selective about the PVP games I play. I want to have a good laugh when I die and I also want to have a good laugh when my team wins.

Weirdly enough I can do just that in both EVE - where my death has at least some consequence, namely loss of my ship and clone. And in games like M&B Napoleonic Wars.

 

But Warframe doesn't even have the basis for PVP - nor is it what this game is excellent at.

That starts with the fact that there are no dedicated servers, so all "ranked" wars have to be done by proxy-missions instead of Tenno vs Tenno.

Or some whiny 12 years old hosting would just pull the plug when he gets a beating.

 

Then the Tenno themselves. They are in no way balanced for PVP. That is why we enjoy the occasional duels in our clan hall that much. Even if we agree on melee weapons only, it is just enjoyable bash. If we go for everything is allowed, there is a quick run for the energy balls and then someone goes down in a big show of light.

 

Tenno were made to give you the rush of playing a true space ninja that is a force in himself and can kill hundreds of enemies.

Now take that into true PVP. I think it would just be a silly freak show.

 

So what kind of "PVP" do we have here? It is like saying Burger King and McDonalds are doing PVP. They both want the customer to eat their burger. But of course they cannot hit the roads to do open battle, throwing milkshakes at each other. I find that a bit sad as a PVP game content in a space ninja game.

 

That is why I'm totally behind any alliance or clan that puts the tax rate to 0%. In fact they should all ally and keep it that way forever. Because the idea of this proxy-war is just silly. There isn't even anything I really need or crave for in the new missions. Just a slightly quicker way to get me what I already have plenty of.

 

They could have made this into something interesting. It is simply not and thus should be taken out of the equation in the way the 0% taxers do it.

Imagine the outrage if large clans ally and put all taxes to 100%. I think this is the better way to point at design flaws. And even if the factions do random raids on the solar rails later on: Who cares? I can see how rich our small ghost clan is.

 

In fact that might even inspire players to be even more Co-operative. By joining together to keep those stupid solar rails in shape against the NPC scum. Which is much more in spirit with what Warframe is about imho. ;)

[SuperWeedy-EGT-]

 

All your 0% Rails are going down =D

[Fezairin]

 

All your 0% Rails are going down =D

Well, I rather wish all memes would go down, but... ;)

 

As stated, there is nothing there to even bother about.

[fatpig84]

The attacks have already started.

Soon we will know the cost of repairs.

 

Then we can see how many Alliances or clans can cling onto their 0% tax rate ideals.

[Morec0]

 

All your 0% Rails are going down =D

 

Why have 1000 when you can have....

 

*pinky*

 

100?

[Worira]

The attacks have already started.

Soon we will know the cost of repairs.

 

Then we can see how many Alliances or clans can cling onto their 0% tax rate ideals.

 

Considering how fast a rail with tax on it is going to get nuked, the costs are probably going to be pretty trivial.

[Wiegraf]

I'm pretty sure the upkeep is the damage that has to be repaired after a Solar Rail conflict. Simply enough, no rail is going to come out unscathed for the simple reason that the alliance who challenges an existing rail will most likely attack the occupant despite whatever settings the attackers have set.

 

Thus, in the long run, having no taxes means you constantly are draining your resource pools without any other income than whatever is available to the clans within the alliance. It might not mean much at first, but since there's no automated income to pay for repairs, it means that the rail will continually be a resource sink for the controlling alliance.

[Worira]

Sure, it's a drain on resources, but much less of one than throwing up contesting rails that get crushed by the self-interested masses.

[Kitzun]

At the start of open beta, many people came to WF, and some suggested that the game introduce PvP content.

I was against it as were other people, especially the founders, even if at the time they were often veterans from closed beta.

In the end, the pvpers got the conclaves, more to be able to tell them "here is your pvp, stop complaining that there is no pvp in a pve game"

I was against pvp because I knew it would attract what is called "loltards", meaning ignorant, rude, whiny, inept at playing and insufferable teenagers.

 

And now some EvE players are on WF and they want pvp.

And they have the same attitude as the ones before, bar that they are twenty to thirty and are more devious and forum-lobbying.

 

My position is simple: it's already hard enough to have this game function correctly as a coop experience without having to deal with the incapacity of (too) many eve players to conduct themselves properly toward other people.

It's not even about the rails, the sectors or any game mechanics, it's about some people being really unsavory in their dealing with other people, and I do not want to see them act on WF as they do on EvE, else this game become a cesspool.

 

People coming from EvE can stay on WF if they so choose, who am I to tell them to go ?

But I surely hope DE will not be as lax as CCP in their policy toward conduct between customers, it would be a huge letdown.

[Fezairin]

And now some EvE players are on WF and they want pvp.

And they have the same attitude as the ones before, bar that they are twenty to thirty and are more devious and forum-lobbying.

Ehem... I'm an EVE Player (It is all capital letters, btw...) and I don't want PVP here aside from the Dojo PVP which is fun between the runs. So please don't generalize.

 

In EVE PVP and wars have consequences. It is the adrenaline rush that makes it interesting.  Also CCP does care about "conduct between customers". They just don't care if you lose your pixel ship to another customer, because their game is a PVP game. Nor do they care if you lose your pixel-money, because you were not paying attention.

 

EVE and Warframe are totally different games. I love both of them for what they are, but the last thing Warframe needs is this kind of Tax Wars PVP that has the appeal of a bottle of valium. In fact it doesn't need any additional PVP in my opinion.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Fezairin

[Kitzun]

I wrote "some eve players", not all eve players who are on WF, and the problem is not pixel-money as you put it.

 

It's really, really the attitude of some that is downright creepy, even if CCP allows things to happen as long as you have an excuse as a front so they don't have to spend ressources on resolving these problems.

Look at the bozos who grief miners for minutes or hours, it's only because they get their kick out of it, but as they pretend it's for an ingame racket turf then CCP let it slide even if it is obvious bullS#&$ covering obvious grieving.

The fact that eve is a "reserve" for this kind of interaction to take place between gamers so it does not touch the rest of the gaming world is an open secret.

 

In the end, I do not want that here, that's all; the fact that Steve want more "eveness" to WF is in my opinion a total disaster.

The bickering and sophistries have already started with this story about players controlling access to content for everyone, this topic is full of it.

Next we'll see newbies posting in these forums saying that they don't understand the purpose of some mechanics and they will be told dumb, snickering, insulting, unconstructive answers like "Warframe is not for you", "Go play Hello Kitty" or "Can I have your potatoes ?".

 

Frankly, if it ever comes to that, I'm out.

If these people want an eve shooter, then they can go play dust, it seems to fare bad enough that it need the added customerhood.

[Fezairin]

I wrote "some eve players", not all eve players who are on WF, and the problem is not pixel-money as you put it.

Well, it sounded like "We had our paradise here and then some rabid dogs from EVE came to destroy it!"

The weak side of forums or any text based discussion. You cannot hear or see the others.

 

I wouldn't be that harsh on EVE. I don't think freighter and miner bumping is an ok sport either, because it is - in my opinion - using a game exploit. But it would take too long to discuss this here and you can have your relative peace in EVE if that is what you are looking for.

 

Anyway, we are on the Warframe forums, not on the EVE forums. EVE is a very complex game. Warframe definitely is not that complex.

 

So, if Steve wants more EVEness in this game, they should probably start another game. I mean, the sheer silliness of this all is aggravating.

"Oh, so someone controls some resources I can get anywhere else? Kewl... Let em..."

 

If they go too far - like, place anything unique in those DSs - it'll just not work out.

 

I for example play this game with a bunch of friends. So we are six at the moment, we'll be ten one day likely, if more of our community get into the game. If most of the game content is not available to us, we'll just leave. We didn't start playing to join some faceless Alliance or some equally faceless big clan. We leave that to kiddos and powermongers. We want to play Space Ninjas!

 

At the moment though it looks like there really is nothing interesting there in the DSs, the whole concept is boring.

 

When I read stuff like: "The Attacks have already begun!" - I ask myself: "What bloody attacks?" It is just a "Choose left door/right door for same grind of your choice". That is not a war. That is not PVP. It is... Just grind.

 

War takes strategy and tactics and skill. This just takes a good tax rate, superior numbers and a cool message. If they think that is interesting game design, I don't know.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Fezairin

[GrandpaHusky]

Non-profit solar rails then

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

DE needs to implement some reason to force conflict.  As Blatantfool suggested, solar rail degradation could work as this places a mandatory upkeep costs on the holding alliance.  Even so, players will eventually figure out the minimum tax rate to offset this degradation and we will be back to square one.  Again, there needs to be a reason to force conflict if that is the goal of dark sectors/solar rails.  As of yet DE has not presented one to the community other than the stupidity of human nature, which is the only reason why any alliance would challenge a 0% tax rate rail.  Again, don't blame the alliances for figuring out how to create a win/win scenario, blame DE for not having the foresight to force conflict between alliances (while not penalizing the other players)

[fatpig84]

Well, it sounded like "We had our paradise here and then some rabid dogs from EVE came to destroy it!"

The weak side of forums or any text based discussion. You cannot hear or see the others.

 

I wouldn't be that harsh on EVE. I don't think freighter and miner bumping is an ok sport either, because it is - in my opinion - using a game exploit. But it would take too long to discuss this here and you can have your relative peace in EVE if that is what you are looking for.

 

Anyway, we are on the Warframe forums, not on the EVE forums. EVE is a very complex game. Warframe definitely is not that complex.

 

So, if Steve wants more EVEness in this game, they should probably start another game. I mean, the sheer silliness of this all is aggravating.

"Oh, so someone controls some resources I can get anywhere else? Kewl... Let em..."

 

If they go too far - like, place anything unique in those DSs - it'll just not work out.

 

I for example play this game with a bunch of friends. So we are six at the moment, we'll be ten one day likely, if more of our community get into the game. If most of the game content is not available to us, we'll just leave. We didn't start playing to join some faceless Alliance or some equally faceless big clan. We leave that to kiddos and powermongers. We want to play Space Ninjas!

 

At the moment though it looks like there really is nothing interesting there in the DSs, the whole concept is boring.

 

When I read stuff like: "The Attacks have already begun!" - I ask myself: "What bloody attacks?" It is just a "Choose left door/right door for same grind of your choice". That is not a war. That is not PVP. It is... Just grind.

 

War takes strategy and tactics and skill. This just takes a good tax rate, superior numbers and a cool message. If they think that is interesting game design, I don't know.

 

 

You mean can flipping and bumping were illegal, oh crap !

I am guilty of that :O

[[DE]Momaw]

 

People will contest purely to put their name on a spot on the map. If you take a look you'll notice people are already contesting 0% maps with the intention of charging 0%.

 

I will accept this correction and acknowledge that hubris is also good reason why people would be unreasonable and attack a non-profit rail.

[[DE]Momaw]

DE needs to implement some reason to force conflict.

 

Why?

[Hyunsai]

Why?

 

This.

 

People don't quite understand human nature. There WILL be conflict, even if there is no incentive to it.

[Feallike]

This.

 

People don't quite understand human nature. There WILL be conflict, even if there is no incentive to it.

 

Yes, some people are to arogent to underestand that it is human nature to be violent. The fact that this is a video game that encourages you to kill millions of enemies at a time enforces you to be violent. 

 

 

AKA This game enforces us to act like us. :P LET THE TENNO WARS COMMENCE!

Edited April 13, 2014 by Feallike

[DirkDeadeye]

lol.. any alliance that charges 0% tax will eventually run out of resources. I don't think it matters how many people come to defend, the rail still takes damage. And I think most people will gravatate towards sectors with an actual tax rate, because the battle pay makes it more lucradive. What's also fun is, once another rail is being deployed the alliances/clans can't adjust their tax rate.

 

Also, at the moment, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to even go to the dark sectors..aside from..circuts.. in my opinion.

Edited April 13, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[[DE]Momaw]

I think most people will gravatate towards sectors with an actual tax rate, because the battle pay makes it more lucradive.

 

Think about that...   Where's the battle pay come from? From your taxes. So money that you rightfully earned is taken away from you, and then given back only when the rail is threatened IF you defend it. Optimum hypothetical result: Zero income.  Practical result: Negative income.

[Fezairin]

You mean can flipping and bumping were illegal, oh crap !

I am guilty of that :O

No, I was speaking of the greater plan where you sacrifice like 30 ships to bump a freighter repeatedly in High Sec and then kill it.

Can Flipping and bumping is harmless. I did it from time to time in my first few months of 7 years EVE. I didn't say I'm a white knight in EVE. I'm not.

You cannot escape the 30 ships though, because you cannot align from the bumps, which is just super-annoying.

There was a guy had to endure that for 2 hours or so before they were ready to kill him. And that I think is pure mobbing.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Fezairin

[DMan]

[PoorCensored]

  I'm really not. I've got no reason to be ashamed at all. I'm not required to share an opinion with this community and I never have been.

 

  Dark Sectors are not a purely cooperative experience. Hoping for a hugbox where nobody goes on the offensive and wins is asking for this part of the game to be turned into a joke. It isn't too far from just plain missing the point.

 

 I said it plenty already. I think it is a mixture of presumptuous and cocky to have no tax at all unless you know damn well you're good enough for the long term implications this can have. You put your own clans &#! over the fire banking on the idea that the randoms who appreciate that small gesture you've made with no taxes will be enough to save you from invaders fast enough to save your clan vaults.

 

 And that is all no taxation is. A small gesture. After playing a good bit of the Dark Sector maps tonight I've noticed that the gains I make playing these rails are easily enough that even a 5%/5% tax wouldn't begin to put a dent in what I gain from playing them.

 

 That said, It isn't just about just successfully defending. You need to be able to sustain yourself and it's going to be incredibly expensive. 

 

 

 If your clan/alliance is tough enough then fine. In fact, good. If you can tussle with whoever shows up and win and make it out okay each time then you'll have earned your right to be cocky like that. 

 

 But as it is now I'm just seeing a whole lot of people making the assumption that their clan can handle making themselves a target like this and all for the sake of being against a taxation feature that nobody even knows if they'll need or not.

 

 

 You want your clanmates and allies to pay out of pocket to support your rail? Fine. But I don't envy what can happen to you and your clan and your allies if you don't have what it takes. You can't actually expect to count on randoms saving you. You need to know your clan is good enough.

 

 

You have made quite a few posts since I posted last; and I'm choosing this one to reply to. If I've missed something in your other posts, or misaddressed you or your views, please let me know.

 

 

The entire idea of pitting Clans of Tenno against one another over... greed... just seems... well... petty and wrong.

 

First, Warframe is a non-MMO, co-op third-person shooter/beat'em'up. The only significant non-MMO, primarily co-op game I can think of that managed to blend competition and co-op decently was Left 4 Dead 1 & 2 - and most of the people I knew either enjoyed playing a co-op mode or versus (with low overlap - the lion share of their time was spend as co-op or versus).

 

Forcing competition into a co-op experience goes against the grain of the basic experience of a co-op game, which is cooperation. Yes, a certain percentage of people are always going to be competitive (anywhere you go), but, if the majority of people who are attracted to your activity come for cooperative play (because you made a cooperative activity!), then you have to assume that the natural response of your player base is to try to cooperate when faced with a challenge - even if that challenge is supposed to cause, or relies on, conflict and competition. Further, a significant number of people drawn to cooperative games like the fact that the games are cooperative and lack competition with other players - and adding conflict elements can make the game less fun for them, particularly if it divides the community or is the only available end game.

 

Now, I've seen lots of primarily competitive games (especially in the RTS and MOBA genres) that manage an enjoyable co-op experience, but not so much the other way around. If you know of any other significant, successful games of a similar class to Warframe that managed to do co-op and competition well, I'd welcome being enlightened with examples of how it can be done right.

 

Second, if you're going to try to motivate me to compete, offering me some petty little resources I can farm anywhere isn't going to do it. You'd have to flash a lot more than credits or resources at me - and I'd be offended by platinum offers. The only battle pay I can think of that might motivate me would be Orokin Catalysts/Reactors or maybe Forma... Even then, I'll support the side that I believe will have the ultimately lower tax rate. What you *really* need is some sort of story or political or social reason for me to become involved.

 

Lastly, competition brings out the worst in a lot of people. I know, people say "Competition brings out the best in people." It brings out the best in some people, and the worst in quite a few others - and it always seems that the worst float to the top (in my experience). Most of the competitive type people I know in real life are, comparatively, horrible. I've know so many competitive gamers who, when their SO shows an interest in a game, they proceed to crush their love mercilessly; instead of trying to play at their partner's skill level and provide coaching. Most of the clans I've encountered in competitive FPSs aren't much better. Yes, you can find nice ones, but there are a ton out there that seem to enjoy hating on their competition, and new players...

 

 

tl;dr - Tying to pit players against one another in a cooperative game is difficult, being contrary to the basic nature of the game and attracted player type; and trying to use greed as a motivator in a game where cooperation is a huge factor in your success seems like backwards decision.

Edited April 13, 2014 by PoorCensored