Why Stealth Attacks Should Kill Instantly

[LGear]

This particular post of mine was inspired by something I saw over https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/215228-stealth-attacks-suck/'>at another thread involving Stealth Attacks:

 

 

In one the recent DevStreams, Scott and Steve actually directly stated they they holistically disagree with each other on the subject.

I forget who was on what side, but one agrees with you, the other doesn't.

 

I'm now wondering why there is such a disagreement in the first place, when it's quite clear that Stealth Attacks as of current are lacking. The reasons why will be explained, but first let's see what the deal is with Stealth Attacks.

 

Stealth Attacks are prompt-based melee strikes that appear if you get behind an unalerted enemy, i.e. enemies not aware of your presence. If you successfully perform one, you'll deal massive damage against the enemy, likely killing him instantly.

 

At least in theory.

 

While Stealth Attacks work well on lower levels like Earth, even using a heavily polarized weapon with catalyst and good mods they soon lose effectiveness quickly even at medium level planets against heavily armored enemies like Bombards, Heavy Gunners and Napalms. Even Troopers gain increasing resistance to Stealth Attacks by this time, and then there are the enemies that can't be Stealth Killed, like MOA's. By the time you get to planets like Neptune, Ceres and Pluto, Stealth Attacks are pretty much useless, since they can't kill enemies instantly, and thus only serves to alert them to your presence by doing so. Even worse is that Stealth Attacks are already difficult to set up if you're trying to do it among a large patrol; you need to have the patience to wait for the right chance to get behind the enemy, and then execute the prompt. A single slip up will alert all nearby enemies, which unfortunately happens if your stealth attack fails to kill your enemies, which happens often at higher level planets. It essentially makes stealth attacks high-risk, low-reward methods of dispatching enemies quietly.

 

It is the latter facts that discourages the use of melee stealth attacks in the later game. And that I believe hurts gameplay variety a lot. Stealth is already a heavily underutilized element of Warframe's gameplay unless you're using Ash or Loki, and even then both are used primarily in heavy combat, using their powers less for sneaky gameplay and more invisible combat, spamming Radial Disarms and Smoke Bombs against groups of combat-alert enemies.  By the virtue of Melee Stealth Attacks being so weak, players are forced to either use powerful silent weapons like the Paris or the Kunai to maintain stealth, or more commonly forego stealth altogether and go in guns blazing. Given that Update 13 gave rise to Melee 2.0 and the concept of "Sword Alone", having the Stealth Attacks be so underwhelming to the point of uselessness is a great imbalance.

 

While Warframe isn't purely a stealth game, it could stand to learn from other games that have mixed gunplay and stealth in the past, from the Metal Gear series to Splinter Cell, many of which feature instant-kill stealth moves that you can only pull off against unalerted enemies. In my opinion though, the best example of Stealth and Gunplay mixing together in a game though is in the Crysis series. In it, you play a man in a biotech suit that gives fantastic powers... much like a lower-tech version of Warframe, hell the Nanosuit also has biological appearances and components to it like a Warframe. You're free to use whatever method you wish to destroy your enemies, from walking in and gunning everything down while tanking bullets like a juggernaut, or you can eliminate all enemies sneakily without the alarm ever being raised. Crysis excels at the latter aspect via two mechanics: Cloaking and Stealth Kills. And in that game, Stealth Kills allow you to kill most everything in a single hit, apart from massive mini-bosses. Setting it up is just as difficult as in Warframe: watch enemy patrol patterns, get behind an unalerted enemy, and then kill him using an attack prompt. However, Stealth Kills in this, and many other stealth games, are guaranteed to kill enemies instantly, preventing the possibility of said enemies being alerted to your presence and thus raising a ruckus. Thus, because Stealth Kills are effective, they allow an alternate form of gameplay that's equally as viable as loud and rowdy gunplay. You're not forced to use silent ranged weapons or go loud: you can sneak up on enemies one by one and kill them silently. Your tactical patience and discretion is rewarded, and not punished because your Stealth Attacks don't do enough damage.

 

The simplest method by far to improve the effectiveness of Stealth Attacks is to increase the attack damage multiplier for Stealth Attacks, such that they'll be able to kill enemies up to Level 40 immediately, which is the highest enemy level you'll likely encounter in the Solar System on missions like Exterminate and Capture. Making stealth attacks effective against anything higher will be unnecessary, since the only way you'll encounter enemies above that level is to fight on Survival and Endless Defense missions, where stealth isn't a consideration anyway, nor are you able to perform stealth attacks on them by virtue of being alert by default. Also, Corpus MOA's should be capable of being stealth killed, since they're also ground units that can raise alertness simply by firing their weapons. Finally, even with a higher stealth damage multiplier Bosses that use weakspots or life gates would still be immune to stealth attacks anyway, which retains the overall balance of the game.

 

Warframe is a game in progress, and its stealth aspect is even more so. It's time that these Space Ninja be given the tools to truly act like Ninja, using stealth and discretion to engage their enemies silently.

 

Edited April 17, 2014 by LGear

[(PSN)NicoTheSneakyGuy]

They should just make the attack remove all the target's health instead of being just a crit/multiplier.

[Demon_Mask]

Agree, stealth melee should kill!

[VegetableBasket]

I didn't have to read all of your post to completely agree with you. BTW, Steve hates stealth attacks killing because "enemies scale in level" even though, honestly, if you can sneak up on a level 10,000 ancient, good for you, one shot it.

I think they should make single daggers stealth kill but maybe not other weapons, just to balance them a bit.

[Arceus255]

They should just make the attack remove all the target's health instead of being just a crit/multiplier.

Probably should just add like 50%-70% of the enemy's health as damage along with the damage that the stealth attack does now.

[(PSN)NicoTheSneakyGuy]

Probably should just add like 50%-70% of the enemy's health as damage along with the damage that the stealth attack does now.

No just make it a one shot so the enemy will surely die, Not live turn around and start shooting you and just give the finger to stealth.

[PixalatedVortex]

I agree

[.Talia.]

But then they will have to separate the Stealth Damage Multiplier into two different bonuses.

 

One for the stealth and one for invisibility.

 

Because right now they are the same thing: 400% Finisher Damage Type (Ignores Armor and Daamge Resistances)

 

If Stealth Damage in general be turned into a 1-hit killer just imagine how OP invisible dudes will be.

[(PSN)NicoTheSneakyGuy]

But then they will have to separate the Stealth Damage Multiplier into two different bonuses.

 

One for the stealth and one for invisibility.

 

Because right now they are the same thing: 400% Finisher Damage Type (Ignores Armor and Daamge Resistances)

 

If Stealth Damage in general be turned into a 1-hit killer just imagine how OP invisible dudes will be.

Then they should separate that, One shot only if the animation plays.

[Calayne]

Imagine if you played Dishonored, and midway into the game, discovered the person you stealthily approached to choke out is actually immune to it, and raises the alarm.

 

Worse yet, you slit his throat, but he steps back, alarmed, and then runs in the opposite direction screaming and shooting at you. 

 

That's kinda what Warframe is right now. 

 

To be honest, the amount of enemies around are so many, the fact that you can't OHKO them from an obviously fatal wound is rather unfortunate. There are already too few missions which reward stealth, and this one just made it even more pronounced: Now you can only do it until Earth, I think. A basic attack sometimes does more damage, at later levels.

 

If a whole team remains coherent enough to stealth kill every single enemy in an Extermination, Spy or Deception mission, then they deserve that. As it is, it's impossible, simply because stealth kills are impossible: They're more like stealth tickles.  

 

HEHE, SURPRISE! 

 

"Huh?! TENNO SKOOM!" Bang bang.

[.Talia.]

Then they should separate that, One shot only if the animation plays.

 

Then i agree.

 

Otherwise if they simply made Stealth Attacks (including invisible attacks) a 1-hit killer, then i disagree.

Edited April 17, 2014 by RexSol

[AureusVulpes]

First, a word in DE_Steve's defense: I think the concern is based around leveling melee weapons from unranked to lol30 using purely stealthplay in high level planets. This would be a HUGE killer in melee leveling time. Sure, the effort was there in doing stealthplay, but it breaks the entire progression system.

 

How about this: a stealth attack damage multiplier based on weapon rank? This way it modifies based on the amount of effort you've put INTO the weapon already, keeps low level enemies one-shottable at low ranks, but preserves a balance against powerleveling with stealthplay.

 

Edit: I should specify that this covers only command based animation stealth attacks. You know, "Press [E] to kill"

Edited April 17, 2014 by AureusVulpes

[Calayne]

Then i agree.

 

That won't be too hard, I suspect. They can keep invis bonus as it is, but use a different line of code for the stealth kills. It's only fair, and I doubt it is too difficult, considering they already have the context-sensitive button-press. Can't see why they would be unable to link it to an insta-kill.

[Orbister]

lol there is any doubt about it? in real life if u sneak on somebody and stab him in the back you kill the person! unless u don't hit a vital spot, so this should not be a multiplier it could be a roll, if roll i succesful its a kill if not its a high damage hit, and a mod to get high chance of killing would be perfect too.

[Blatantfool]

Nice. Stealth thread.

 

Warning. Possibly unpopular opinion ahead.

 

Stealth in Warframe will probably always suck. No matter how much we'd love this game to be able to do face stomping action AND interesting stealthy gameplay the truth is it isn't so easy to go both ways and do it properly. Warframe is leaning far more in the direction of face stomping action, which means it'll struggle doing stealth right no matter what.

 

  Take a look at this. It'll probably let you understand my mindset slightly better. 

 

  Warframe will always have baby-steps stealth elements. Just enough so that you can goof off with it. Chief among all problems is awarding stealth properly. The way players progress in this game is almost incompatible with the way a good stealth game needs to reward the player. A Tenno needs mountains of kills to rank up and grind through weapons, playing stealthily would significantly slow this process down for the player. You'll never be rewarded quite right for the effort you are putting in. That is just one issue with more complex stealth we have to keep in mind when discussing it.

 

 Lets also keep in mind the sort of thing OP's topic brings to the table. Stealth attacks don't one shot kill in a game where enemies scale ever upwards with no particular ceiling on health and defensive stats. Even the stealthy Primary and Secondary weapons don't stay lethal forever.  Eventually you can be playing content you simply cannot possibly stay lethal AND stealthy in. This is a huge problem. A nonlethal Tenno is a completely useless Tenno.

 

 This is just where my head is at right now on the matter. Just my personal opinion.

[Calayne]

First, a word in DE_Steve's defense: I think the concern is based around leveling melee weapons from unranked to lol30 using purely stealthplay in high level planets. This would be a HUGE killer in melee leveling time. Sure, the effort was there in doing stealthplay, but it breaks the entire progression system.

 

How about this: a stealth attack damage multiplier based on weapon rank? This way it modifies based on the amount of effort you've put INTO the weapon already, keeps low level enemies one-shottable at low ranks, but preserves a balance against powerleveling with stealthplay.

 

Perhaps you're right: A Loki with invis can run around back stabbing everything, killing everything in one hit. 

 

But the truth of the matter is that there really aren't that many heavies around, and there's better exp to be had when there are more enemies, not less. And the amount of time and effort you spend to kill one enemy are far outdone by people who raise the alarm and quickly shoot everything to oblivion.

 

Besides, people who want to shoot everything already go to Survival or Defence. Why make stealth completely unviable at late game, even for stealthy missions? Exterminate seems to be the one most proper for stealth missions: Enemies don't appear out of nowhere, there's a limited amount, and they're pretty well spaced out. Yet, even here, stealth kill remain a pipe-dream. 

 

At any rate, even if you could kill all the enemies as fast as you shoot them, even in later levels, the amount of exp gained is little different from the one you gain at the early level. It simply isn't justifiable to keep stealth completely in the dark. 

 

In the dark.

 

Get it? Stealth? ...No?

 

*Shrugs*

[Kaidinah]

First, a word in DE_Steve's defense: I think the concern is based around leveling melee weapons from unranked to lol30 using purely stealthplay in high level planets. This would be a HUGE killer in melee leveling time. Sure, the effort was there in doing stealthplay, but it breaks the entire progression system.

 

How about this: a stealth attack damage multiplier based on weapon rank? This way it modifies based on the amount of effort you've put INTO the weapon already, keeps low level enemies one-shottable at low ranks, but preserves a balance against powerleveling with stealthplay.

 

Edit: I should specify that this covers only command based animation stealth attacks. You know, "Press [E] to kill"

No matter how its put, I can't see this as a bad thing. If someone is skilled enough at the game they can level their melee weapons faster? If someone is skilled they get to grind less? Grinding less is good. This can only be positive.

[Worira]

First, a word in DE_Steve's defense: I think the concern is based around leveling melee weapons from unranked to lol30 using purely stealthplay in high level planets. This would be a HUGE killer in melee leveling time. Sure, the effort was there in doing stealthplay, but it breaks the entire progression system.

 

How about this: a stealth attack damage multiplier based on weapon rank? This way it modifies based on the amount of effort you've put INTO the weapon already, keeps low level enemies one-shottable at low ranks, but preserves a balance against powerleveling with stealthplay.

 

Edit: I should specify that this covers only command based animation stealth attacks. You know, "Press [E] to kill"

 

XP scales up very slowly with levels. Killing a whole bunch of level 5s is much, much better XP than killing a few level 35s.

[Archangelzz]

I have to agree with most of the people who posted I mean if you are going to stealth then it needs to be effective.

[LGear]

First, a word in DE_Steve's defense: I think the concern is based around leveling melee weapons from unranked to lol30 using purely stealthplay in high level planets. This would be a HUGE killer in melee leveling time. Sure, the effort was there in doing stealthplay, but it breaks the entire progression system.

 

How about this: a stealth attack damage multiplier based on weapon rank? This way it modifies based on the amount of effort you've put INTO the weapon already, keeps low level enemies one-shottable at low ranks, but preserves a balance against powerleveling with stealthplay.

 

Edit: I should specify that this covers only command based animation stealth attacks. You know, "Press [E] to kill"

 

This would be a good, balanced idea for stealth kills, since it allows Stealth Kills to be effective, while still preventing the powerlevelling you mentioned. It also means that you can't simply do stealth kills at higher levels using weapons with at least a minimum of essential mods, which should maintain progression. For example, weapons dealing +50% Stealth Attack damage per level or something. It would also give melee weapons a passive leveling bonus similar to Warframe health, shields and energy currently.  

 

Still, the multiplier should be balanced around weapons without catalysts, so as to allow every weapon to be capable of stealth kills against enemies of that weapon's level without having to spend on making your weapon better. If you attempt to use an unranked dagger against a Level 30 enemy obviously you need to fail, but a modded Level 30 dagger should be able to do Stealth Kills against Level 30 enemies easily.

[Toddwjp]

LOKI does NOT need More Buffs

[Lorane_Airwing]

LOKI does NOT need More Buffs

Whats the point of playing any other frame for "STEALTH" than? Loki is already the only viable frame next to ash for stealth. Spread the stealth kill love and other frames get a chance too.

[Xaelon]

Nice. Stealth thread.

 

Warning. Possibly unpopular opinion ahead.

 

Stealth in Warframe will probably always suck. No matter how much we'd love this game to be able to do face stomping action AND interesting stealthy gameplay the truth is it isn't so easy to go both ways and do it properly. Warframe is leaning far more in the direction of face stomping action, which means it'll struggle doing stealth right no matter what.

 

  Take a look at this. It'll probably let you understand my mindset slightly better. 

 

  Warframe will always have baby-steps stealth elements. Just enough so that you can goof off with it. Chief among all problems is awarding stealth properly. The way players progress in this game is almost incompatible with the way a good stealth game needs to reward the player. A Tenno needs mountains of kills to rank up and grind through weapons, playing stealthily would significantly slow this process down for the player. You'll never be rewarded quite right for the effort you are putting in. That is just one issue with more complex stealth we have to keep in mind when discussing it.

 

 Lets also keep in mind the sort of thing OP's topic brings to the table. Stealth attacks don't one shot kill in a game where enemies scale ever upwards with no particular ceiling on health and defensive stats. Even the stealthy Primary and Secondary weapons don't stay lethal forever.  Eventually you can be playing content you simply cannot possibly stay lethal AND stealthy in. This is a huge problem. A nonlethal Tenno is a completely useless Tenno.

 

 This is just where my head is at right now on the matter. Just my personal opinion.

Yep.  Extra Credits is always spot on when it comes to game stuff.  For steath to become important in this game it needs to move away from being a Mass Xenocide Simulator.  Steath will never be a viable option in the current mission types just because openly murdering everything is just so much more gratifying (imo), and just works better with how the game is currently.

 

I'm not saying good steath is impossble to work into Warframe.  I mean they suceeded at having a steath level for the mastery test for Rank 9 but that only worked because the level was specially designed. 

 

In short, for steath to be a viable option there needs to be specifcly designed levels for it.

[Calayne]

Whats the point of playing any other frame for "STEALTH" than? Loki is already the only viable frame next to ash for stealth. Spread the stealth kill love and other frames get a chance too.

 

^^^ This here, is truth.

 

No one else except Loki and Ash can do "Stealth" kills. And even then, I'd rather do it without the prompt. That would just be silly, and alert the enemies. I stand right in front of them and chop them in two. 

 

Silly stealth kills. This is how it should be.

 

I suspect that perhaps they accidentally forgot to include the mod's bonuses to the stealth kill multiplier, though. Could be a bug, to be honest. Perhaps they actually intended to apply all the mod damage, and give it a multiplier, but put a wrong decimal place somewhere, or forgot to apply the multiplier to the whole factor. 

 

Anyways, perhaps we'll see in time. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

simple solution: properly executed stealth attack prompts deal 1000X crit modifier dmg

viola, this would most likely solve any stealth attack issues

loki/ash still get bonus invis dmg, this is NOT the same thing, of course loki could combine the two by staying unnoticed as performing stealth kills if they wished

the problem of ranking up low-lvl melee with stealth kills on high-lvl missions? not a problem, as Blatantfool points out, stealth gameplay is atm largely unrewarding anyways, so this "loophole" is really nothing of the sort

additionally, keeping the stealth attack dmg a modifier keeps it from being a complete OHKO, truly low-lvl gear would not be able to one-shot 40s, but after a few decent mods it probably would, and of course just as with anything that scales upwards, eventually enemy hps would make it impossible to OHKO them regardless of weapon/mods, but by that point it probably wouldnt matter anyways

Edited April 17, 2014 by CY13ERPUNK