The "lost Weapons" (And How To Reintegrate Them)

[Seele]

Another one of these threads? Yes. Because until this is resolved I'm not going to shut up about it.

Anecdotal introduction for you, I myself am a rank 15, having obtained every weapon, warframe, sentinel, and other article which you may think of, within my means - that is to say, no Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime, no Wraiths or Vandals, and none of these "Lost" weapons, the arbitrarily retired or phased out.

The "Lost" weapons, if you don't know, are: Boar, Ether Daggers, Gorgon*, Machete, and Snipetron.
None of these weapons are obtainable by any means whatsoever, excluding the Gorgon (hence the asterisk), which is for whatever reason locked behind the worst RNG complex the game over, being the Daily Login Reward. You roll once every 24 hours and have an astonishingly low chance of rolling anything besides the experience reward, let alone a blueprint reward and beyond that a Gorgon blueprint specifically.

More importantly than their intangibility, however, is that all of these weapons are already replaced by strictly and objectively superior weapons: The Boar Prime, Dual Ether, Gorgon Wraith, Machete Wraith, and Snipetron Vandal.

So what does a rank 15 want with these weapons if there's better out there? Well, I remember what it was like to be new, and I also care about the success of this game just as much or more so than my personal success within it.

Being a new Warframe player is a dreadful experience. It is why I quit for over a year. So why should we deny entry-level weapons such as these to new players who could use and enjoy them?

I have proposed solutions for each of the weapons, to follow.

Boar: Bearing striking visual similarity to the Strun, I can almost see why this weapon was retired. Almost. Then I see Boar Prime and I come back to my senses.
Boar would make an excellent mid-level shotgun, for players who were astute enough to find (or were instructed by an older player to buy) the Strun in the market but not yet of rank to buy the Hek, Sobek, or Tigris.
Boar could retain its modest rank requirement of 2, with a blueprint for sale on the market, requiring a Strun to complete.

Ether Daggers: Behaving much like a Slash-equivalent to Fang, the Ether Daggers represent a third of the weapons for which the Dual Daggers stances are applicable, the other two being the aforementioned Fang and its Prime variant.
As there is no single Ether Dagger, the Ether Daggers blueprint could join the ranks of the other dagger weapons as an alert reward.

Gorgon: The most frustratingly impossible weapon that you can still obtain. If you've gotten a blueprint without really wanting it you can't fathom the struggle. Gorgon's successor in the Gorgon Wraith is fully discontinued, making the series as a whole inaccessible. Given the meager breadth of Chemical Lab research options, the Gorgon could be added to it, albeit with lesser material requirements than Ignis or Marelok (i.e. one injector). As a signature Grineer weapon, this would make it a goal to attain for newer players, and would encourage them to join a clan and participate in invasions and infestations.

Machete: Machete Wraith is also unobtainable, but really, this thing is like a Skana that uses worse stance mods. Sundering Weave is pretty common though, so this could be a good way to introduce the stance system to newer guys. So put it on the market with a relatively cheap material price (no neurodes).

Snipetron: is actually the one weapon I abide taking a hiatus. No retirement. Hiatus. With the Lanka being a thing now, Snipetron and its Vandal counterpart need a solid rehaul before recirculating. I'd advocate it receiving nothing more than a new model - perhaps as a DMR variant of the Braton series, to justify it firing conventional projectiles, since that was apparently the reason for it's retirement... But the Braton and Lato series persist... Anyway. The energy lab is a bit cluttered, and Lanka is accessible there, so I'd recommend this one returning to the market when it's ready as well.

I very seriously can't think of a good reason why anyone would want these weapons to remain discontinued. This game has 30 pre-programmed mastery ranks, of which 16 are attainable if one has mastered every weapon, discontinued or still available. So for what reason should anything be removed? If a weapon is imbalanced/ugly/unanimously despised, fix it and re-implement it, don't sweep it under the rug and replace it with something unquestionably better.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Seele

[DarthRevan84]

Just gonna say this once. Its DEs game if they wish to phase out weapons or remove them due to contradicting the "Lore" as per the Snipetron being removed. That is their call to make.

[(PSN)PD_33]

Another one of these threads? Yes. Because until this is resolved I'm not going to shut up about it.

 

Anecdotal introduction for you, I myself am a rank 15, having obtained every weapon, warframe, sentinel, and other article which you may think of, within my means - that is to say, no Excalibur/Lato/Skana Prime, no Wraiths or Vandals, and none of these "Lost" weapons, the arbitrarily retired or phased out.

 

The "Lost" weapons, if you don't know, are: Boar, Ether Daggers, Gorgon*, Machete, and Snipetron. 

None of these weapons are obtainable by any means whatsoever, excluding the Gorgon (hence the asterisk), which is for whatever reason locked behind the worst RNG complex the game over, being the Daily Login Reward. You roll once every 24 hours and have an astonishingly low chance of rolling anything besides the experience reward, let alone a blueprint reward and beyond that a Gorgon blueprint specifically.

 

More importantly than their intangibility, however, is that all of these weapons are already replaced by strictly and objectively superior weapons: The Boar Prime, Dual Ether, Gorgon Wraith, Machete Wraith, and Snipetron Vandal.

 

So why does a rank 15 want with these weapons if there's better out there right? Well, I remember what it was like to be new, and I also care about the success of this game just as much or more so than my personal success within it.

 

Being a new Warframe player is a dreadful experience. It is why I quit for over a year. So why should we deny entry-level weapons such as these to new players who could use and enjoy them?

 

I have proposed solutions for each of the weapons, to follow.

 

Boar: Bearing striking visual similarity to the Strun, I can almost see why this weapon was retired. Almost. Then I see Boar Prime and I come back to my senses.

Boar would make an excellent mid-level shotgun, for players who were astute enough to find (or were instructed by an older player to buy) the Strun in the market but not yet of rank to buy the Hek, Sobek, or Tigris.

Boar could be given a modest rank requirement of 2, with a blueprint for sale on the market, requiring a Strun to complete.

 

Ether Daggers: Behaving much like a Slash-equivalent to Fang, the Ether Daggers represent a third of the weapons for which the Dual Daggers stances are applicable, the other two being the aforementioned Fang and its Prime variant.

As there is no single Ether Dagger, the Ether Daggers blueprint could join the ranks of the other dagger weapons as an alert reward.

 

Gorgon: The most frustratingly impossible weapon that you can still obtain. If you've gotten a blueprint without really wanting it you can't fathom the struggle. Gorgon's successor in the Gorgon Wraith is fully discontinued, making the series as a whole inaccessible. Given the meager breadth of Chemical Lab research options, the Gorgon could be added to it, albeit with lesser material requirements than Ignis or Marelok (i.e. one injector). As a signature Grineer weapon, this would make it a goal to attain for newer players, and would encourage them to join a clan and participate in invasions and infestations.

 

Machete: Machete Wraith is also unobtainable, but really, this thing is like a Skana that uses worse stance mods. Sundering Weave is pretty common though, so this could be a good way to introduce the stance system to newer guys. So put it on the market with a relatively cheap material price (no neurodes).

 

Snipetron: is actually the one weapon I abide taking a hiatus. No retirement. Hiatus. With the Lanka being a thing now, Snipetron and its Vandal counterpart need a solid rehaul before recirculating. I'd advocate it receiving nothing more than a new model - perhaps as a DMR variant of the Braton series, to justify it firing conventional projectiles. It could cover the gap between Latron/Prime and the actual sniper rifles. The energy lab is a bit cluttered, and Lanka is accessible there, so I'd recommend this one returning to the market when it's ready as well.

 

I very seriously can't think of a good reason why anyone would want these weapons to remain discontinued. This game has 30 pre-programmed mastery ranks, of which 16 are attainable if one has mastered every weapon, discontinued or still available. So for what reason should anything be removed? If a weapon is imbalanced/ugly/unanimously despised, fix it and re-implement it, don't sweep it under the rug and replace it with something unquestionably better.

 

 

I got 3 Gorgon blueprints of 7 Day alerts. I have gotten the Dark Sword, Dark Dagger, Pangolin( or however you spell it) from Alerts. I also got the Twin Wraith Vipers from Cicero event, and the Gorgon Wraith from the Tethras Doom event.  ( on topic)

 

I would like to see the Snipetron Vandal, and maybe Sniper weapons becoming viable again.

 

To the Op. Gorgon is a really fun weapon it is too bad you cannot get it. Its really fun hearing that thing ramp up, and running around with it great fun, even tho the damage is a bit luckluster, I still find myself using it from time to time.

 

They should take a look at Dead Eye vs Rifle Amp ( off topic)

Edited May 8, 2014 by (PS4)PD_33

[Digitalon]

Good logical arguments and ideas. While I already have all of the retired weapons (BP or built) I think it is silly they built some of these weapons only to retire them a few patches later. I fully support the return of retired weapons +1 for you.

[RespectTheInternet]

Let's take a note from the arcane helmet crisis. Make all of these lost weapon's tradeable.

[Mcl_Blue]

The only thing I agree with is the Boar, solely because I find it weird that they have the Boar Prime without the Boar.

[Noabettiet]

From what i remember, the reasoning behind "retiring" weapons was for multiple reasons and among them, if i remember corrently, it was something along the lines of : "there are too many weapons, it is a mess and confusing to new players".

 

So i guess you could try also working around that with your feedback, maybe making it possible to know which weapons are available for our mastery rank and which are locked.

[(PSN)SpiderRoll]

Snipetron: is actually the one weapon I abide taking a hiatus. No retirement. Hiatus. With the Lanka being a thing now, Snipetron and its Vandal counterpart need a solid rehaul before recirculating. I'd advocate it receiving nothing more than a new model - perhaps as a DMR variant of the Braton series, to justify it firing conventional projectiles. It could cover the gap between Latron/Prime and the actual sniper rifles. The energy lab is a bit cluttered, and Lanka is accessible there, so I'd recommend this one returning to the market when it's ready as well.

 

I very seriously can't think of a good reason why anyone would want these weapons to remain discontinued. This game has 30 pre-programmed mastery ranks, of which 16 are attainable if one has mastered every weapon, discontinued or still available. So for what reason should anything be removed? If a weapon is imbalanced/ugly/unanimously despised, fix it and re-implement it, don't sweep it under the rug and replace it with something unquestionably better.

 

You bring up plenty of good points and I generally agree, but is there a reason that the Snipetron must fire conventional projectiles?  Why not have it fire a energy/plasma shot like other Corpus weapons and make it a DMR?  I don't think they have a weapon like that in their kit, so this could be a way to add one.

 

I still have no idea how DE will be able to add enough frames and weapons to let us reach MR30.  That's a lot of frames and weapons, with a lot of opportunity for overlap and power creep.

[Seele]

You bring up plenty of good points and I generally agree, but is there a reason that the Snipetron must fire conventional projectiles?  Why not have it fire a energy/plasma shot like other Corpus weapons and make it a DMR?  I don't think they have a weapon like that in their kit, so this could be a way to add one.

 

I still have no idea how DE will be able to add enough frames and weapons to let us reach MR30.  That's a lot of frames and weapons, with a lot of opportunity for overlap and power creep.

Retaining its conventional projectiles makes it far easier to reprogram, and also makes it distinguished juxtaposed to Lanka.

I would be fine with it firing plasma or whatnot as well but I tried to make my solutions as simple as possible.

[gam3addict]

I don't care if the weapons come back or not.. all i care about here, in this thread.. is your initial paragraph and the attitude behind it.

 

The same repetitive whining nerfed the Braton Vandal/buffed the normal Braton undeserved back in the day...it's not beta testing, it's not a deficiency.. it's just you and your opinion.

 

Posting about what you want over and over again until you eventually get it is just pathetic in my opinion. No offense.

That's how things get done in any sort of project or development, the loudest feedback is heard most. So if you have an issue you want to change, the only way to do it is to keep harping on it until you're threatened with disciplinary action or it changes. Either that or get a bunch of people to join you and petition to change it which equates to just being loud about it anyway.

[MechaTails]

I'm going to have to agree with the "too many weapons" line of thinking. Also, this being beta, retiring old weapons for whatever reason shouldn't cause a stink.

 

I could do with whacking off a few more weapons and tweaking what's left to make them more interesting.

Edited May 8, 2014 by DarkTails

[Seele]

I could do with whacking off

Whatever you gotta do buddy. Rootin' for ya.

[Seele]

From what i remember, the reasoning behind "retiring" weapons was for multiple reasons and among them, if i remember corrently, it was something along the lines of : "there are too many weapons, it is a mess and confusing to new players".

 

So i guess you could try also working around that with your feedback, maybe making it possible to know which weapons are available for our mastery rank and which are locked.

Not sure how I managed to miss this post last night. I could see an overtly large arsenal being confusing to new players... If they were all available immediately. When I first started to decide on a replacement for my starting gear I just picked whichever blueprint looked the coolest on the market, with some input from my more experienced friends, and went to work building it. I know everyone's experience is different, but it wasn't long after that I was finishing weapons faster than I could build a replacement, especially once I started getting into clan tech.

What I would imagine would alienate players more than there being too many weapons to choose from, is seeing a gun they like and coming to find that they can't get it anymore for no real reason.

[Edgedemon]

You bring up plenty of good points and I generally agree, but is there a reason that the Snipetron must fire conventional projectiles?  Why not have it fire a energy/plasma shot like other Corpus weapons and make it a DMR?  I don't think they have a weapon like that in their kit, so this could be a way to add one.

 

I still have no idea how DE will be able to add enough frames and weapons to let us reach MR30.  That's a lot of frames and weapons, with a lot of opportunity for overlap and power creep.

 because lanka is already an energy/plasma sniper, a weird one thats sure but sniper nonetheless in fact the whole problem is they left snipetron there after replacing it so now we have lanka, and we miss snipetron.

 

also there was too many weapons? they introduce 2 weapons each month or so, that's the worse argument i've seem ever.

[D1398342003]

I don't see any reason DE couldn't just SAY that the Snipetron fires a magic space bullet like the Braton series. The issue was that it's fluff was incompatible, not it's mechanics. 

 

I'd advocate turning it into the lowest mastery sniper rifle. Put it alongside the Braton and Strun, at a price point similar to the Lex. 

 

Something they should really consider, is hiding weapons that you cannot use due to mastery requirements, and more clearly showing what type of weapon each is. When I started playing, I figured that the Strun must be a GREAT weapon, as it has high damage stats, and the Gorgon was crap due to low damage. 

 

Market UI redesign would be far better than removing weapons.

[Seele]

I don't see any reason DE couldn't just SAY that the Snipetron fires a magic space bullet like the Braton series. The issue was that it's fluff was incompatible, not it's mechanics. 

 

I'd advocate turning it into the lowest mastery sniper rifle. Put it alongside the Braton and Strun, at a price point similar to the Lex. 

 

Something they should really consider, is hiding weapons that you cannot use due to mastery requirements, and more clearly showing what type of weapon each is. When I started playing, I figured that the Strun must be a GREAT weapon, as it has high damage stats, and the Gorgon was crap due to low damage. 

 

Market UI redesign would be far better than removing weapons.

I absolutely agree that the market needs a UI overhaul, and you know, new additions. Nothing has been made available for credits since Karak, everything's going to clantech or the Void...

 

When I first started playing I looked at all the numbers and had no empirical idea what it all meant. I just knew most of the more interesting weapons were XP locked, so I just went with the coolest looking rifle that was available to me, and I later found that many other players in my station made the same choice at the same time...

 

So does that not betray the logic that there were too many weapons and it would confuse new players? Having the Snipetron available out the gate, as you suggest and I concur with, would let players fill a whole new role so soon - sure, they'd probably regret it the next time they tried to solo a boss, but they wouldn't be another Excalibur/Loki/Mag with an unremarkable full-auto rifle. Loki players would probably greatly enjoy it while their abilities are still fleshing out and their melee hasn't actualized its potential yet.

[(PSN)SpiderRoll]

I don't see any reason DE couldn't just SAY that the Snipetron fires a magic space bullet like the Braton series. The issue was that it's fluff was incompatible, not it's mechanics. 

 

I'd advocate turning it into the lowest mastery sniper rifle. Put it alongside the Braton and Strun, at a price point similar to the Lex. 

 

Something they should really consider, is hiding weapons that you cannot use due to mastery requirements, and more clearly showing what type of weapon each is. When I started playing, I figured that the Strun must be a GREAT weapon, as it has high damage stats, and the Gorgon was crap due to low damage. 

 

Market UI redesign would be far better than removing weapons.

 

This would be a great way to make the weapons list a bit less intimidating, and it can also provide some incentive for players to rise in mastery rank.  From my quick glance on the wiki, it feels like MR is only a gating mechanic for a few weapons.  You don't even know what you unlock at each level if you don't consult the wiki or get blocked while crafting.

 

Redesigning the market UI would be one step.  (sorting and categorizing weapon types, showing which weapons are unlocked at which MRs, etc.)  It could also be nice to have an information screen after passing a rank test.  This screen would congratulate you for passing your test and tell you what kinds of features you've unlocked.  (new gear, extractor deployment, trading, etc.)

[Seele]

 

This would be a great way to make the weapons list a bit less intimidating, and it can also provide some incentive for players to rise in mastery rank.  From my quick glance on the wiki, it feels like MR is only a gating mechanic for a few weapons.  You don't even know what you unlock at each level if you don't consult the wiki or get blocked while crafting.

 

Redesigning the market UI would be one step.  (sorting and categorizing weapon types, showing which weapons are unlocked at which MRs, etc.)  It could also be nice to have an information screen after passing a rank test.  This screen would congratulate you for passing your test and tell you what kinds of features you've unlocked.  (new gear, extractor deployment, trading, etc.)

I agree with all of your ideas here, detracting from the main idea though they may be.

 

I absolutely advocate any strides taken to improve the new-player experience of this game, and returning some of these weapons would do so, but only by proxy.

 

Regardless of the capacity in which they return, my own implementations be damned, they deserve to be recirculated. We, the players, deserve them.

[K0bra]

Without the Snipetron the Lanka wouldnt exist.It was a replacement.

I enjoy my Snipetron and play it alot and dont want Firing Plasma or another look or whatever.I want it like it is with Bullets and that nice Snipetron/Lanka look.

 

By the other weapons i cant understand why they arent in the game anymore.

Edited May 11, 2014 by K0bra

[AdmiralAvalanche]

i do not really see why everyone gravitates to the snipetron-lanka debacle and says that due to that singular case all of these weapons should be withheld, hey if the boar were kept from us than it would create a lore-hole, the vary thing many people believed justified this

 

other cases such as the melee weapons are now invalid with the overhauls given, the ether daggers have a niche as a slash-type double dagger, one of only three (the other two, being the fang and fang prime are too similar) and the machete being re-introduced would make it so that someone who stumbles across the machete stance actually has the capability of using it or trying it instead of A) having to clantech the prova, B) build the rather expensive early on kama or C) wallow because you can't get the exclusive machete wraith (justifiable) or the regular machete (un-justifiable) any more

[Seele]

i do not really see why everyone gravitates to the snipetron-lanka debacle and says that due to that singular case all of these weapons should be withheld, hey if the boar were kept from us than it would create a lore-hole, the vary thing many people believed justified this

 

other cases such as the melee weapons are now invalid with the overhauls given, the ether daggers have a niche as a slash-type double dagger, one of only three (the other two, being the fang and fang prime are too similar) and the machete being re-introduced would make it so that someone who stumbles across the machete stance actually has the capability of using it or trying it instead of A) having to clantech the prova, B) build the rather expensive early on kama or C) wallow because you can't get the exclusive machete wraith (justifiable) or the regular machete (un-justifiable) any more

This is pretty much on-point. Sadly that's what it comes down to, we players having a perfectly logical reasoning for all of them and seeing no reason they should stay discontinued but nothing gets done all the same.

 

I'm glad you mentioned the other machete weapons being as difficult to get as they are, because I did mention the standard machete being a good noob weapon but failed to mention the skewed inaccessibility of the others juxtaposed to the final result - the hypothetical player would get the stance mod, wait and wait to acquire the materials for Prova or Kama, and then ultimately be disappointed by the outcome of the work they poured in (or in the case of the Kama, be disappointed when their stance no longer works on the dual version).

[Seele]

Wrapping up the Sybaris and the OP will once more be accurate, at least until the next batch of Primes is released.

 

While I appreciate all the support, and I'm not going to let this thread die, I also don't expect anything to actually come of this. Is there some secret method to getting a dev to read your thread? That this whole matter hasn't even surfaced as a community hot topic disturbs me.

[Jathaal]

I took a break about a month or so into open beta, so I missed out on much of the weapons that have been discontinued or were event only weapons, which sucks. Personally, I say leave the event weapons die, because they were exclusives. If you start bringing back exclusive items you get rage from those who got them from the event (Case in point, Brakk). However, I agree that that "Too many weapons" idea has long since passed. I mean, we used to get WEEKLY weapons. While I do kinda miss the "Gun Day Wednesday", I get that they're trying to not flood the game with more weapons than players can deal with.

 

OP, I think that all of your ideas were valid, I like the idea for the Gorgon being Clan-Tech (We're missing a good Chem Lab LMG). I think the Snipetron would be more in need of a remodel and to be put on the market as an entry level sniper, as had been said before. I'd really like there to be another Dual Daggers set, especially a slash one, so the Ether Daggers would certainly be a great idea if they reintroduced them. Lastly, being someone who has used the Prova and the Kama, I say that the stance for these weapons (Sundering Weave) sucks. I hate it. However, if they did a fix for that and brought that in with the re-release of the Machete, I think that'd please a lot of players, as well as add a little nostalgia to their first days of play.

[Seele]

The retired weapons are back in the codex, to include Gorgon Wraith and Wraith Twin Vipers as well.

 

Hopefully this means some kind of pending reintegration (and an oversight on behalf of the wraith weapons), but that may be reading into it too much.

[TwoCrabs]

Im a player with over 50k kills on my gorgon and I must completely agree with you! De listen to this man!
gorgon NEEDS to return, its one of the classic warframe weapons (with the boltor,braton, latron etc)

maybe buff it a little(decrease reload or a 150 mag) and BOOM the newer players would have something "special" that is not Op but a welcome change from the rest of the weaponry =D