Excalibur 2.0 - We Are Almost There!

[WolvenEdge]

Why not just have a thread asking for them to be TOGGLE-ABLE? that way you use it exactly like another melee weapon with a few extra perks? Just tap four to equip, and tap four to unequip. Easy as pie, it solves the entire 'I be forced into sord mode! Melee is teh suk!' issue.

 

For the last time, we won't be forced into MELEE. Do we not understand what a 'sword wave' is?

 

Has anyone here ever played Legend of Zelda, especially Skyward Sword and the originals? Several Final Fantasy titles have it as well.

How about watched Bleach, or even -bleeep- Naruto? Or Samurai Pizza Cats, or Touhou, or... You get the point.

 

It will be a ranged attack set based on a melee weapon. The stance will likely reflect this, with lots of sweeping motions that in melee will cover a large area, and vertical chops that will likely also deal stun. Thanks to the parameters they've set, it will likely be comparable to Tempo Royale. I see absolutely nothing to complain about... except on one point. I get the whole 'I'm being FORCED into a playstyle' argument... and I'm going to still have to call bull.

As Excalibur stands, hek, how almost ANY frame stands right now, how many of you use all of their abilities all the time, huh? Any takers? Some abilities are considered better than others for certain situations, and some don't really HAVE a situation to be used in for many players, yet other players can use those abilities to great effect.

 

I usually don't say things like this, as I don't really consider it an argument, but in this case... if you don't like one or two of his abilities, then don't use them. Your playstyle is up to you, and if your jpreference is using Excalibur as an artillery platform, a mere set of legs for your favorite weapon... then that's your choice, and you can even do it well in many cases. I for one will be happy to use this new ability, and will find a way to make it devastating... just like I use Volt's Shock and Overload to great effect when almost everyone else hates them. Or Ash's Shuriken... need I go on? Almost every ability has elements that make it viable in play... almost.

 

That's exactly why I was so happy about the removal of Super Jump; it served no purpose that other techniques couldn't do better. That lovely 'jump and rain death from above' can be accomplished with most melee weapons and a high-sensitivity mouse. Look up, jump, melee, look down, blast away. The rate you move (movement and parkour vs. enemy accuracy system) even keeps them from hitting you with almost the same efficiency as the little bit of invis SuperJump affords you.

 

Edit; Much as I'd like the idea of being able to mod Excal's new sword, Valkyr's Furax claws, and Mesa's Peacekeeper pistols... if that's implimented those abilities will be getting a rather hefty nerf. They're quite powerful abilities in their own rights, and if you add on the usual mods for weapons then imagine the havok you could wreak on the INTENDED LEVEL balance of the game.

I'm quite tired of the attitude of 'if I can't solo T4Survival missions for an hour using it, it's crap' attitude. Those levels were made to put the pressure on, and if you can't take it, then either be smart and leave with your loot, or stay and die like a moron.

 

Edit2; it put something in the wrong place, I fixeded it. :P

Edited April 16, 2015 by WolvenEdge

[Ronyn]

Whoa there bud. There is a whole lot of misunderstanding going on here.

 

Why not just have a thread asking for them to be TOGGLE-ABLE? that way you use it exactly like another melee weapon with a few extra perks? Just tap four to equip, and tap four to unequip. Easy as pie, it solves the entire 'I be forced into sord mode! Melee is teh suk!' issue.

 

For the last time, we won't be forced into MELEE. Do we not understand what a 'sword wave' is?

When we are talking about not wanting to be forced to use the energy sword..

It's not that we think its a melee range only weapon nor do we think the game will literally trigger the mode by itself. lol

Turn it on at will. Energy wave ranged attack. Yeah we know.

This isn't an issue of not understanding how the ult would work. It's a matter of liking or disliking the power itself. 

 

 

It will be a ranged attack set based on a melee weapon. The stance will likely reflect this, with lots of sweeping motions that in melee will cover a large area, and vertical chops that will likely also deal stun. Thanks to the parameters they've set, it will likely be comparable to Tempo Royale. I see absolutely nothing to complain about... 

Even if the power functions well enough it doesn't mean it will do so in a way we prefer.

Moreover, just because we can just not use a power on a frame doesn't mean we want the frame to have a power on it we don't like.

 

I get the whole 'I'm being FORCED into a playstyle' argument... and I'm going to still have to call bull.

As Excalibur stands, hek, how almost ANY frame stands right now, how many of you use all of their abilities all the time, huh? Any takers? Some abilities are considered better than others for certain situations, and some don't really HAVE a situation to be used in for many players, yet other players can use those abilities to great effect.

What part of that means that we shouldn't have a preference for how Excalibur's ult should work? 

 

 Much as I'd like the idea of being able to mod Excal's new sword, Valkyr's Furax claws, and Mesa's Peacekeeper pistols... if that's implimented those abilities will be getting a rather hefty nerf. They're quite powerful abilities in their own rights, and if you add on the usual mods for weapons then imagine the havok you could wreak on the INTENDED LEVEL balance of the game.

Eh....You're not understanding the concerns or reasoning for that request or the request itself. I'll explain.

Currently, with the specific calculations used for Valkyr's claws, only certain aspects of your melee weapon and certain mods on that weapon are taken into account.

The result is that-

some mod load-outs on your carried melee weapon will be good for that carried melee weapon but actually be bad for hysteria's claws.

some mod load-outs on your carried melee weapon will be bad for your carried melee weapon but actually be good for hysteria's claws.

Leaving a valkyr player with some odd limitations on what melee weapons and what mods they can use without screwing up one thing or the other. 

 

Alternatively If the claws were simply treated as separate weapons they could be balanced, tuned and also modded on their own without unintended interactions between it and the carried melee weapon.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ronyn

[WolvenEdge]

I got the point. I did.

 

I'm tired of listening to the constant insults being leveled at DE for listening to this and deciding on a path of action to take. Whether it functions in a way that's preferable or not, I can't really care. Preference is not a matter of what will work, often in communities like this it's begging for more power when we as Tenno area already quite powerful... and many are misusing that power, thus DE's previous implimentation of a Line of Sight system on Radial Blind and the 'awareness' system on Radial Javelin.

 

I get the reasoning, I've run the numbers myself many times over. I'm just pointing out some side-effects as a result. I mean, I think we've already all faced the lovely feature that is Sentinels not being able to use the same mods as our current weapon loadout. I personally thought that it was a great taste of logic, but it's annoying to many.

Valkyr's claws were balanced not to need mods, it was a concession to the players that some mods on the default melee effect the Furax at all, which is essentially saying that the single mod can effect multiple weapons for one thing, but not another.

If they make Excalibur's new sword, whatever it's name comes to be, Valkyr's Furax, Mesa's Peacekeepers, and even Ash's wrist-blades, weapons of their own, those abilities will have to be rebalanced something fierce, and the mods you wish to have on those weapons be re-obtained and re-leveled for them. If done right, and maybe some of the harder mods to get released in short order in events, along with a lot of rare fusion cores to help give both newbies and vets a small boost on the resulting grind, it could be pretty awesome. But I'm not sure if the event will be recieved well... considering the attitude of 'you broke it, don't try to fix it it will just be broken more!' that seems to have invaded the forums lately.

[Ronyn]

Hey I'm not down with anyone insulting the devs.

But this is a feedback forum and that means expressing what we want\don't want...like\dislike. The community is divided on excaliburs rework.

My goal is to try to achieve the core goals of both sides. While its impossible to please everybody....I feel that in this particular case we can reasonably get the major chunks of each side to a happy place. But that kind of thing will only matter to those who care about both sides.

______

Its true that things like valkyrs claws were made a certain way.

But in her specific case its just not working properly. This is extra concerning because DE said they were thinking of doing something like that with excaliburs ult.

Considering hers needs a rework of some kind right now.....the last thing we need is for excaliburs to follow in her current footsteps.

Id rather DE start a new precedent based on a less interwoven system.

Something less prone to unintended interactions.

[r0ckwolf]

I do not see it Ronyn, really... i´m sorry. 

 

In which way is his versatility in combat or modding in danger by this rework?? The only thing that happens is that Super Jump is being removed, since it´s simply outdated, which you agree upon if i didn´t misunderstood you.

In it´s place comes a newer Power that appropiately Updates Excaliburs "Swordsman" Theme, which he always had, to the current melee system.

 

His other Powers are getting a facelift, but his core concept is not fundamentaly changing, it´s simply being updated to the Warframe of 2015 from the Warframe of 2013.

 

I do not understand where your concerns regarding his versatility are coming from?

Edited April 16, 2015 by r0ckwolf

[LordChronos]

This game is free to play and I think it's real high quality. People should be happy and grateful de is so involved in the community. They listen to constructive feedback and I just want to praise that.

I really look forward to playing with the new Excalibur prime!

Thank you, DE

[Ronyn]

I do not see it Ronyn, really... i´m sorry. 

 

In which way is his versatility in combat or modding in danger by this rework?? The only thing that happens is that Super Jump is being removed, since it´s simply outdated, which you agree upon if i didn´t misunderstood you.

In it´s place comes a newer Power that appropiately Updates Excaliburs "Swordsman" Theme, which he always had, to the current melee system.

 

His other Powers are getting a facelift, but his core concept is not fundamentaly changing, it´s simply being updated to the Warframe of 2015 from the Warframe of 2013.

 

I do not understand where your concerns regarding his versatility are coming from?

It's a pretty simple concept. Frames often have more than one aspect to their theme.

Excalibur is a swordsman..but not JUST a swordsman.

His new ult brings out PART of his original intended theme, the swordsman, while pulling him away from the "choose any weapon" part by going with the "hold this particular sword" concept. Unless they ALSO give him some way to improve the "choose any weapon/build how you want to" part of his identity....something of his originally intended theme is indeed lost.

 

The build how you want to/use any weapon part of his theme also needs some updating because it has fallen behind.

If it is not addressed in the rework it will just fall away and all we will really have is the swordsman part.

 

That is the purpose of ideas like these.

2: Defiance: Excalibur summons multiple energy swords that orbit around his body in a vertical position. They intercept all incoming projectiles reducing the damage he takes by X percent and lasts for Y seconds. Upon pressing the button again, Excalibur raises his energy sword up and the circling swords fly outward in all directions. All enemies hit by a sword will be left in a "prone" state for a Z seconds. Any attack on them during that time will count as finisher damage therefore bypassing shields and armor that way all manner of attacks will be benefited from this action.  Any enemies currently under a slash proc will also take damage from this power. Making it wise to combo into after Severance. Both the initial cast and the releasing cast of Defiance will be a one handed action.

 

3: Exceed: Excalibur focus's energy through his body which increases the positive effects of all equipped mods on his frame and weapons by X percent. This has an energy cost of Y per second and is a toggle ability that can be canceled any time by pressing the command again. Activating it is a one handed action.

Example: For simplicity sake I will act as though Exceed increases the effectiveness of equipped mods by 100 percent. That number is just for illistration, real numbers are decided in testing. Ok so if you have a maxed redirection mod slotted it raises shields by 440 percent. During Exceed mode it will raise shields by 880 percent. Likewise if you have fury slotted in your melee weapon the speed boost will go from 30 percent to 60 percent. Imagine how that would play out with different builds!

This is the key to a player being able to truly choose what kind of frame he will be.

Disclaimer: Again I chose the 100 percent increase for simplicity sake. If some other percentage, 90, 80,50 or whatever is better that is fine. A few attributes might even need some caps to make sure this is well balanced. As not all attributes are equal in practice.

Note: According to recent devstreams we know that a charged jump will be coming to Warframe.

When Charge jump is added to the game Excalibur will jump twice as high during Exceed mode.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ronyn

[.Tabris]

First off I'm a HUGE fan of old Exacl. Damn, have been playing this since I started Warframe, especially his tiddy golden-trimmed suit. Anyways, enough fanboying ...

 

I'm also particularly fond of meleeing, and I did get lots of fun from Radial Blind stealth kill bonus (up until when they nerfed the Stun phase bonus anyway).

 

But yeah, old pal needs a little rework. I say this based on the comment about abilities; tied with Excal as my favorite is Volt, and yes, I do manage to use every one of his skills, almost every time. For me, they're all useful, even if Shock doesn't scale well into high levels, we still get that nifty stun.

 

Here's where my suggestion comes: Slash Dash should inherit the melee weapon stats. I guess Hysteria does this, no ?

That would put on par with end game levels and, it would be dependable on the player's mod layout. I mean, I for one would approve this. Also, I think the same "melee mod status" solution for Radial Javelin would be quite nice too !

 

Radial Blind has this new Augment mod now... Haven't tried, but seems nice. Still, what they should do is bring back the Stealth Bonus dmg DURING the stun phase too. The skill is still good, but it was a no-brainer before, now it's just ... awkward.

 

As for "Superjump" ... yeah, here's a skill slot they should do something about, and I mean, something completely different. Not a "rework", but something truly new.

 

Ah well, these are my thoughts ...

 

Tnks for reading guys

 

 

 

EDIT: and yeah, he completely lacks any "fire arm" skill. So much for "versatility" (thinking about Volt's Electric Shield, gosh, that works !)

Edited April 16, 2015 by idZefir

[Thaumatos]

It's a pretty simple concept. Frames often have more than one aspect to their theme.

Excalibur is a swordsman..but not JUST a swordsman.

His new ult brings out PART of his original intended theme, the swordsman, while pulling him away from the "choose any weapon" part by going with the "hold this particular sword" concept. Unless they ALSO give him some way to improve the "choose any weapon/build how you want to" part of his identity....something of his originally intended theme is indeed lost.

The build how you want to/use any weapon part of his theme also needs some updating because it has fallen behind.

If it is not addressed in the rework it will just fall away and all we will really have is the swordsman part.

That is the purpose of ideas like these.

If you're determining whether or not a frame's theme is "free to choose a weapon/build" simply by having a transform skill, then there are a great many frames that have that theme.

Excalibur's theme has always been a mix of melee, movement, and the lore of the sword Excalibur IRL (Radial Blind...read about Excalibur's blinding light). He wasn't a bland frame until they started baking his advantages into the game and pumping out the new Warframes almost every major update. His newfound blandness is not what makes him a "general" frame either. It's simply a consequence of consecutive improvements on the game.

None of his ability to play as a non-swordsman is going away. You simply choose to shoot rather than use abilities. Same as you always have with Excalibur. Same as you can with any frame. He'll just regain the option to be played in an ability-centric style; something that he arguably hasn't had in comparison to other frames in quite a long time.

[Tyreuzs]

+1!

[Ronyn]

 

 

If you're determining whether or not a frame's theme is "free to choose a weapon/build" simply by having a transform skill, then there are a great many frames that have that theme.

To be clear I'm not determining a frames entire theme by one power alone.

However a power as specific as drawing a certain weapon is a hefty slant in one direction.

Unless there are other things to offset that, it will push a frame into a certain box.

 

And a frame not having a transform skill does not automatically make them particularly versatile.

It's a matter of their total kit. 

 

Excalibur's theme has always been a mix of melee, movement, and the lore of the sword Excalibur IRL (Radial Blind...read about Excalibur's blinding light). 

Yes those things.....AND the idea of build how you want/chooses from any weapon.

This is not an either/or kind of thing people.

 

He wasn't a bland frame until they started baking his advantages into the game and pumping out the new Warframes almost every major update. His newfound blandness is not what makes him a "general" frame either. It's simply a consequence of consecutive improvements on the game.

His new found "blandness" has nothing to do with why many of us considered him a generalist.

It's from how some of us played him early on and how he is described.

 

 

None of his ability to play as a non-swordsman is going away. 

 

He needs improvements to his ability to play as a non-swordsman.

 

You simply choose to shoot rather than use abilities. Same as you always have with Excalibur. Same as you can with any frame. He'll just regain the option to be played in an ability-centric style; something that he arguably hasn't had in comparison to other frames in quite a long time.

"Choose to shoot and not use powers" does not represent a frame meant for versatility. It's just side stepping the meat of the discussion.

Heck, I can play technically play Valkyr with all guns and never use melee attacks.

I can do off beat stuff like using ripline to get to high sniping spots and only using warcry and paralysis as a slow and a stun against enemies when they get too close just so I can get away from them.  But playing her at range like that will be giving up many of her built in strengths. Moreover, the many other frames who can actually bolster their guns power would hit way harder than she does. Sure, I can do stuff like that. Warframe's aren't one trick ponies. Warframe, as a game, is full of wonderful guns.  BUT Valkyr was obviously built to excel in melee. That is where she truly excels. 

 

A frame that is intended to be versatile will have powers that improve and increase their capability in the use of multiple weapon types and play styles. That is the part of Excalibur that I want to see improve. No it doesn't have to be at the expense of his melee capability, it doesn't have to be an either that or the a sword mode style ult. But make no mistake...

Excalibur being able to just not use powers is not the same thing as him having some powers that are meant to increase his versatility. 

 

EDIT: and yeah, he completely lacks any "fire arm" skill. So much for "versatility" (thinking about Volt's Electric Shield, gosh, that works !)

See, you get it. 

Volt is a great example of a frame that can excel in melee, gunplay or even as a supportive caster based on how the player wants to take him. THAT is what versatility looks like. 

 

Where is Excalibur's improvements to his versatility in this new rework?

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ronyn

[Thaumatos]

To be clear I'm not determining a frames entire theme by one power alone.

However a power as specific as drawing a certain weapon is a hefty slant in one direction.

Unless there are other things to offset that, it will push a frame into a certain box.

And a frame not having a transform skill does not automatically make them particularly versatile.

To be fair to DE and the history of Warframe, when Excalibur was first created, there weren't any 'transformation' skills that lasted for a specific duration and forced you into a specific weapon. Even in those early times, however, Excalibur still drew his melee weapon during the use of his skills. I would definitely call those "powers where you draw a specific weapon" and the only time it didn't happen was when using Super Jump.

This is my, and many others', number one reason for considering Excalibur a "melee themed" frame.

Yes those things.....AND the idea of build how you want/chooses from any weapon.

This is not an either/or kind of thing people.

Which frame forces you to use a specific weapon in any one of your 3 slots?

Which frame forces you to use a specific mod?

This "choose what you want" ideal comes specifically from Excalibur having no strengths in comparison to other frames. And that situation has only been rather recent. Prior to the release of Zephyr, he has always been the best mobility fighter and that was perfect for engaging in melee. And no, Volt's Speed was not particularly useful during combat in comparison to Slash Dash. In the early game's history, Excalibur's description was, "a balance between Offense and Movement". In contrast, Volt's early description was "A potent alternative to gunplay."

They most certainly saw the way abilities worked as the centerpeice of a frame's playstyle and how to most effectively use it.

His new found "blandness" has nothing to do with why many of us considered him a generalist.

It's from how some of us played him early on and how he is described.

How Excalibur is played now comes in stark contrast with the way the game can be played on many other frames. Early on, that's how many of the frames played. Guns were simply a more direct approach to destroying enemies than blasting out powers left and right. Just because you still have little choice but to use all the weapons in your arsenal on Excalibur doesn't mean he's any more or less than what he was meant to be early on. He was always, and should always be a mobility fighter.

You have to remember that Excalibur is probably the only frame who, until rather recently, has been 100% unchanged since the very beginnings of the game. Sure he's had tweaks to make things work a little more fluidly or to be less buggy, but functionally Excalibur wasn't even touched until they decided to nerf Radial Blind.

"Choose to shoot and not use powers" does not represent a frame meant for versatility. It's just side stepping the meat of the discussion.

Heck, I can play technically play Valkyr with all guns and never use melee attacks.

That's the entire point. You've missed it. A frame's ability to be versatile isn't defined by its abilities but by the player's decision of how to use them. Super Jump was meant to make Excalibur more mobile before they had wall running. Slash Dash did a lot of damage in the early game and it made Excalibur highly mobile.

You don't use them very often anymore because you have better options for mobility. This has overshadowed Excalibur's strong points and makes him feel less specialized.

I can do off beat stuff like using ripline to get to high sniping spots and only using warcry and paralysis as a slow and a stun against enemies when they get too close just so I can get away from them.

But playing her at range like that will be giving up many of her built in strengths. Moreover, the many other frames who can actually bolster their guns power would hit way harder than she does.

So your new definition of versatility is to not have any strengths? If you had no advantages in any spot whatsoever, you'd be the most versatile frame in the game, right? That's what you're getting at here. I see your point but frankly, that doesn't sound fun at all.

You just described a very versatile way to make an extremely melee-centric frame into a crow's nest sniper. Does that mean she's the best at doing so? No. Does it mean she can't do it? That doesn't mean she can't do it though. There's a big difference between versatility, specialty, and inability.

A frame that is intended to be versatile will have powers that improve and increase their capability in the use of multiple weapon types and play styles. That is the part of Excalibur that I want to see improve. No it doesn't have to be at the expense of his melee capability, it doesn't have to be an either that or the a sword mode style ult. But make no mistake...

Excalibur being able to just not use powers is not the same thing as him having some powers that are meant to increase his versatility.

Make no mistake, Excalibur's ability to not use powers is not the same as his inability to be effective while using powers. Currently, Super Jump, Slash Dash, and Radial Javelin are extremely ineffective. When Radial Javelin was the new farm-spam, people complained that he had become a one-trick pony. Nothing changed except RJ's ability to be effective.

Where people trip up is the difference between efficient use and versatility. All frames have a lot of versatility, but many of them have extremely efficient methods of use based on their powers. Excalibur used to, but he doesn't anymore. So now he feels extremely 'general' or as I would describe him, bland.

Where is Excalibur's improvements to his versatility in this new rework?

According to you he's already extremely versatile. Why do they need to rework that?

They're helping out his melee/offense theme in this rework. Something he needs desperately. His versatility isn't going anywhere. Don't talk about Super Jump...they're adding it for everyone in the form of "charged jumping".

[Ronyn]

 

I'm going to start from the end because it needs to be clear- 

According to you he's already extremely versatile. Why do they need to rework that?

That is not what I said. According to me he started out as versatile, was intended to be versatile, but has fallen behind on many fronts including versatility. Telling me how weak and/or flawed Excalibur is in the current game is useless. I am not one of the people claiming he is fine.

I am all for him getting improvements. The only issue is which specific improvements I want. Do not get that twisted.

 

They're helping out his melee/offense theme in this rework. Something he needs desperately. His versatility isn't going anywhere. Don't talk about Super Jump...they're adding it for everyone in the form of "charged jumping".

Yes he does need help in melee and offense theme. I am glad they are getting to it (despite some disagreements on specific implementation).

But, again, his versatility also needs help because it too has fallen behind.

 

And I didn't say anything about keeping super jump as that will indeed be redundant once charged jumps are implemented.

Though it's worth noting that in terms of category, super jump was a mobility/generalists power. 

I would like to see him gain something new but in that same category in the rework one way or another.

Something relevant in the new meta. As you put it he was always "A mobile fighter".

 

This "choose what you want" ideal comes specifically from Excalibur having no strengths in comparison to other frames. 

Depends on who you ask. For many the ideal comes from feeling that he had enough strength in multiple arenas that he could function well enough there. That, in addition to being described as a frame meant for multiple roles and playstyles.

And when I say description I don't mean just the couple sentences on the page. I mean those plus the video as well.

 

To be fair to DE and the history of Warframe, when Excalibur was first created, there weren't any 'transformation' skills that lasted for a specific duration and forced you into a specific weapon. Even in those early times, however, Excalibur still drew his melee weapon during the use of his skills. I would definitely call those "powers where you draw a specific weapon" and the only time it didn't happen was when using Super Jump.

This is my, and many others', number one reason for considering Excalibur a "melee themed" frame.

Powers where Excalibur draws a specific weapon for just second are the equivalent of when ember throws a fireball or creates a column of flame. Excalibur entering an actual mode where he draws a specific weapon and uses it as a weapon would be the equivalent of ember hitting a button and being unable to use any weapon except some flames shooting out of her hands. Just because Ember has always been fire themed and always used fire powers doesn't mean a "flamethrower only mode" is the obvious direction for her design now that transformations are a thing.

Same applies to Excalibur.

 

Melee was always part of Excalibur's identity. I'm only saying it wasn't his whole identity. So I want the rework to reflect that.

If there is going to be a sword mode fine. What about the rest of his kit will play to the versatility aspects of his identity?

 

Which frame forces you to use a specific weapon in any one of your 3 slots?
Which frame forces you to use a specific mod?

I didn't say anything about frames being "forced" to use any weapon or mod. But what is most beneficial is what defines a frames strengths. Certain frames have more advantages at certain ranges or in certain play styles so they are benefited by choosing weapons to suit. And of course, certain mods work better on some frames than others. As mods work as percentages upon base stats, so certain mods will be more beneficial to some than others. Just as some powers benefit more from some mod set ups than others.

 

The core ideal of a frame intended to be versatile is that they would be able to gain benefits from a versatile group of options.

His powers would actually promote that versatility.

 

So your new definition of versatility is to not have any strengths? If you had no advantages in any spot whatsoever, you'd be the most versatile frame in the game, right? That's what you're getting at here. I see your point but frankly, that doesn't sound fun at all.

 

You just described a very versatile way to make an extremely melee-centric frame into a crow's nest sniper. Does that mean she's the best at doing so? No. Does it mean she can't do it? That doesn't mean she can't do it though. There's a big difference between versatility, specialty, and inability.

Where people trip up is the difference between efficient use and versatility. All frames have a lot of versatility, but many of them have extremely efficient methods of use based on their powers. 

 

That's the entire point. You've missed it. A frame's ability to be versatile isn't defined by its abilities but by the player's decision of how to use them. 

Whoa. Do not misrepresent how I defined versatility then play the terminology card.  

I said " a frame meant to be versatile would have powers to improve and increase their capability with multiple weapon types and playstyles."

 

I used Volt as an example because currently he has specific power based strengths when fighting in melee AND specific power based strengths for when fighting at range. He doesn't give up the ability to have power based advantages by going one way over the other. He has powers for both. THAT is versatility (or efficient use in different set ups if you will). In contrast to Valkyr who's powers are primarily beneficial only in close range combat.

 

A Frames versatility (or call it efficient uses if you like) is defined by the potential use of it's stats and powers.

It is from that potential that players can make a choice. A choice out of the capabilities available.

if a power is not capable of good damage it's not an option to use it as a damage power.

if a power is not capable of good mobility it's not an option to use it as a mobility power.

 

Is having powers that bolster different aspects of your frame not fun?

 

 And no, Volt's Speed was not particularly useful during combat in comparison to Slash Dash.

We can talk about how things were and how things changes with each frame if we like.

We can delve into what each frame has gained, is lacking, etc....

But that is really just a digression. In this discussion It's supposed to be a reference point not a subject of it's own.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ronyn

[Thaumatos]

 

I'm going to start from the end because it needs to be clear- 

That is not what I said. According to me he started out as versatile, was intended to be versatile, but has fallen behind on many fronts including versatility. Telling me how weak and/or flawed Excalibur is in the current game is useless. I am not one of the people claiming he is fine.

I am all for him getting improvements. The only issue is which specific improvements I want. Do not get that twisted.

 

Yes he does need help in melee and offense theme. I am glad they are getting to it (despite some disagreements on specific implementation).

But, again, his versatility also needs help because it too has fallen behind.

 

And I didn't say anything about keeping super jump as that will indeed be redundant once charged jumps are implemented.

Though it's worth noting that in terms of category, super jump was a mobility/generalists power. 

I would like to see him gain something new but in that same category in the rework one way or another.

Something relevant in the new meta. As you put it he was always "A mobile fighter".

So he started out versatile and then fell behind.  How exactly?  He hasn't changed (outside of recent developments).  Other frames, weapons, and abilities have been implemented and upgraded, but Excalibur hasn't changed.  Is it because his specialty of being an offensive, mobility-based fighter seemed more like versatility to you than a specialty?  I'm not trying to be condescending here.   It just seems like you and I are on the same page yet we're looking at a different paragraph.

 

Depends on who you ask. For many the ideal comes from feeling that he had enough strength in multiple arenas that he could function well enough there. That, in addition to being described as a frame meant for multiple roles and playstyles.

And when I say description I don't mean just the couple sentences on the page. I mean those plus the video as well.

Any and all frames have enough strength in all fields to function well.  Players are just that powerful.  It's a separate issue that must be addressed but it has a large bearing on how Excalibur, as an underclassed frame, feels.  Everything is profoundly significant on Excalibur because his powers don't just overshadow all other choices made by the player; as so many frames now do.  Unfortunately...

 

 

Powers where Excalibur draws a specific weapon for just second are the equivalent of when ember throws a fireball or creates a column of flame. Excalibur entering an actual mode where he draws a specific weapon and uses it as a weapon would be the equivalent of ember hitting a button and being unable to use any weapon except some flames shooting out of her hands. Just because Ember has always been fire themed and always used fire powers doesn't mean a "flamethrower only mode" is the obvious direction for her design now that transformations are a thing.

Same applies to Excalibur.

 

Melee was always part of Excalibur's identity. I'm only saying it wasn't his whole identity. So I want the rework to reflect that.

If there is going to be a sword mode fine. What about the rest of his kit will play to the versatility aspects of his identity?

He had 3 powers that involved using his melee weapon.  He had 1 power that made him jump (kinda sad when you put it that way).  He had 0 powers that involved using primary, 0 using secondary, and 0 that granted him a personal defensive bonus.  Radial Blind offered CC as a 'burst' defense to an offensive frame which required Line of Sight, and sometimes melee range, for everything outside of RB.  To me, that's pretty sword-centered.

 

Excalibur wasn't 100% melee, but it certainly was relied upon for success and efficient use of most skills.

 

I didn't say anything about frames being "forced" to use any weapon or mod. 

 

I know you didn't say anything about being forced into weapon/mod choices, they were rhetorical questions.  The answers are already known.  Point being, any frame can pick any loadout regardless of how efficiently it will be used.  That's the definition of choice in playstyle.  They haven't taken that away (yet).

 

But what is most beneficial is what defines a frames strengths. Certain frames have more advantages at certain ranges or in certain play styles so they are benefited by choosing weapons to suit. And of course, certain mods work better on some frames than others. As mods work as percentages upon base stats, so certain mods will be more beneficial to some than others. Just as some powers benefit more from some mod set ups than others.

 

The core ideal of a frame intended to be versatile is that they would be able to gain benefits from a versatile group of options.

His powers would actually promote that versatility.

 

Here you're drawing the same conclusion as before.  Your own definition of versatility is no specialty.  That's exactly how this reads.

 

Again, Excalibur was never a 'jack of all trades'.  He had his niche and the development of the game destroyed it.

 

He was also very versatile.

 

Whoa. Do not misrepresent how I defined versatility then play the terminology card.  

I said " a frame meant to be versatile would have powers to improve and increase their capability with multiple weapon types and playstyles."

 

I'm not misrepresenting anything.  That's how it read before and that's how it reads above.  You seem to think that having a specialty ruins versatility.  I'm not sure what you're getting at other than that.  The only thing I could possibly think of is an ability that grants bonuses to a specific method of play.  In this case, if you're not considering movement as a playstyle, Radial Blind's stealth bonus only works with melee and shooting your weapon reveals your current position.  Just another point towards a melee-centered frame.

 

Now its true that Slash Dash, Super Jump, and Radial Javelin don't cater directly to any specific weapon set, but they most certainly possess a playstyle of their own.  I'd hate to keep beating a dead horse here but his playstyle was highly movement-based and moderately melee-focused.  It always has been.  He's just been outclassed by content.

 

Now this:

 

Is having powers that bolster different aspects of your frame not fun?

 

This is misrepresentation.  You probably did that on purpose though right? :)

[Ronyn]

So he started out versatile and then fell behind.  How exactly?  He hasn't changed (outside of recent developments).  Other frames, weapons, and abilities have been implemented and upgraded, but Excalibur hasn't changed. 

How could he have fallen behind if he hasn't changed much? It's simple. Like it happens to many once great people. They, themselves may not have changed much but the world around them did. As you said it yourself-the game out-scaled him. As a result certain options he use to have are lost. As a result, what he used to effectively be....he kind of isn't anymore.

 

We have both said that his kit has fallen behind in effectiveness. We have both pointed out it is primarily due to how the game has changed around him. There is nothing there to debate about. The debate is really about what do we think he was and what do we think he was supposed to be.

 

Which-

Is it because his specialty of being an offensive, mobility-based fighter seemed more like versatility to you than a specialty?

-

his playstyle was highly movement-based and moderately melee-focused.  It always has been.  

From my perspective, while those were indeed parts of his capabilities that wasn't all he was or all he was meant to be.

 

He had 3 powers that involved using his melee weapon.  He had 1 power that made him jump (kinda sad when you put it that way).  He had 0 powers that involved using primary, 0 using secondary, and 0 that granted him a personal defensive bonus.

He had-

Three powers that involved using a melee weapon aesthetic (SD,RB,RJ) which promotes the melee weapon theme.<later the energy sword theme. 

Three of his powers have the range and/or function to work just as well with guns as they did with melee (RB,SJ,RJ) which promote versatility.

Three powers that have a damage component. (SD,RB,RJ) promoting the damage dealer.

Two powers that involved or benefited from any direct melee interaction (SD) and the attack bonus from (RB) which promotes melee combat.

Two powers that increased his mobility (SD,SJ) which promotes mobile actions for any purpose including offense, defense and simple positioning. 

Two powers with a Crowd Control component. Crowd control has uses in both offensive and defensive actions.

One power that indirectly worked based on his melee weapon. (RB) stealth attack bonus based on melee weapon calculations. Promoting melee. 

Zero powers that directly utilized the stats or effects from any of his weapons whether primary, secondary, or melee weapons.

Zero powers that granted him a personal buff to his defense, offensive, mobility or utility.

 

 

Excalibur was never a 'jack of all trades'.  He had his niche and the development of the game destroyed it.

He was also very versatile.

I don't like the term "jack of all trades" and rarely, if ever, use it to describe Excalibur. Though I have once or twice in response to others using it. 

The reason I don't like it is because I'm not talking about a frame with access to ALL trades. ALL trades would halve to include stuff like healing and whatever else into the mix...which isn't even in the conversation. It's one of those terms that are popular but most times inaccurate.

No, Excalibur was never a "jack of all trades" nor was he meant to be.

But, IMO, he was built for versatility as much as he was for his other specializations.

 

So let's be clear about something obvious- We do not agree about how Excalibur was or was meant to be. We likely aren't going to.

The larger issue is that there are tons of people on both sides of this. I think both can be appeased if the rework gives Excalibur the right kit.

Unfortunately the all too common attitude of "I'm right and your wrong" from some folks on both sides makes that harder than it needs to be.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In your opinion does Volt have a specialization? 

Cause he has a power that improves his movement speed and melee damage.

And a power that gives him placable cover and increases his gun damage.

Both have great use in one thing and yet are still useful in the other.

Which is exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say "powers that promote versatility"

 

I'm not misrepresenting anything.  That's how it read before and that's how it reads above.  You seem to think that having a specialty ruins versatility. 

-

Here you're drawing the same conclusion as before.  Your own definition of versatility is no specialty.  That's exactly how this reads.

No. absolutely not. It seems that I can keep telling you otherwise if I want to....but it wont do any good. lol

I am not equating "no specialization with versatility". I'm saying that one of a frames specializations can be versatility.

And versatility can be one specialization ALONGSIDE other specializations such as mobility or melee combat.

Versatility, like anything else, has to be purposefully built in.

 

Of course, the whole "versatility is a specialization" argument wont make much sense to you if you're of the opinion that-

Any and all frames have enough strength in all fields to function well.  Players are just that powerful.

 

I know you didn't say anything about being forced into weapon/mod choices, they were rhetorical questions.  The answers are already known.  Point being, any frame can pick any loadout regardless of how efficiently it will be used.  That's the definition of choice in playstyle.  They haven't taken that away (yet).

-which I strongly disagree with that but ultimately it's a discussion for another place.

 

Now this:

-

This is misrepresentation.  You probably did that on purpose though right? :)

No. That was a question. That was me trying to get you to respond to what I am actually talking about wanting for Excalibur.

 

I want to discuss what we can do with Excalibur's rework that will potentially appease both sides of the debate.

Yes, both sides. Instead of worrying about who is right or wrong. I'd rather we consider ways to make both sides happy.

 

EDIT: It occurs to me- You responded to a post of mine that started by expressing an abstract viewpoint and desire but then went on to present a specific set of ideas on how to bring that across in practice. Yet this debate has continued, focused primarily on the abstract and niggling over point of view while literally disregarding the specific ideas. This abstract stuff is more prone to interpretation and misunderstanding. It's also not getting us anywhere. I don't think it's useful. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Thaumatos]

EDIT: It occurs to me- You responded to a post of mine that started by expressing an abstract viewpoint and desire but then went on to present a specific set of ideas on how to bring that across in practice. Yet this debate has continued, focused primarily on the abstract and niggling over point of view while literally disregarding the specific ideas. This abstract stuff is more prone to interpretation and misunderstanding. It's also not getting us anywhere. I don't think it's useful

While I'd have to disagree about focusing on an abstract, I concede that this is not going anywhere...and is off-topic to boot.

So I'll stop arguing about it as well. :p

Not directed at you specifically Ronyn:

Suffice to say we should all try to put our concerns of Excalibur's future forward in the best way possible. None of this 'out when its out' B. S. An insufficient re-work is both a needless change and a waste of DE's precious time.

This game is more community-driven than almost any other product out there. That's saying a lot. Lets not be complacent with Warframe. Its worthy of fanboyism, but we shouldn't stoop to it.

[Ronyn]

Suffice to say we should all try to put our concerns of Excalibur's future forward in the best way possible. None of this 'out when its out' B. S. An insufficient re-work is both a needless change and a waste of DE's precious time.

This game is more community-driven than almost any other product out there. That's saying a lot. Lets not be complacent with Warframe. Its worthy of fanboyism, but we shouldn't stoop to it.

I agree with this part 100 percent.

 

While I'd have to disagree about focusing on an abstract, I concede that this is not going anywhere...and is off-topic to boot.

So I'll stop arguing about it as well. :p

Let me rephrase. 

Were we at all talking about the two specific ideas I put forward to create the kind of Excalibur I like? No.

We are talking about what everything around, related and leading up to it. Debating whether even trying to retain or create a certain style of choice in weapon is worth doing and/or redundant. All kinds of stuff that just...well....doesn't actually provide actionable feedback for DE to look at.

 

It was only sort of off topic.  I mean the discussion is about the direction of Excalibur rework right?

We could stop discussing it altogether but that's not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that we try to get onto the finer point.

Namely-

Why some of us are concerned about the direction this rework is taking so far. 

It relates to build options and choice in weapons but so far, it seems, I have been unable to clearly express the issue.

 

Let me come at this from another angle.

In Warframe there are many frames with a power that specifically increase melee weapon damage and/or overall melee capability.

let's take a look at some of those specific powers, what they do and what they promote.

 

Stealth (Loki,Ash)-Allows for a sneak attack modifier in open combat. It's specialized in subterfuge but does not negate the use of ranged weapons. In fact it works wonderfully with any silent ranged weapon. So it's efficient to use with various weaponry.

 

Speed (Volt)- Grants Volt increased movement speed and melee weapon speed. To get the most out of this one would have to use the movement speed to go from target to target while using the melee swing speed to do damage. However movement speed itself improves rushing around the area evading fire and shooting at enemies. It's specialized in mobility and melee with a buffing allies aspect yet it's also pretty efficient to use with various weaponry.

 

Vex Armor (Chroma)-Amplifies his armor and weapon damage based on taking damage himself. It's specialized in the Tank role as it requires incoming damage to function. But since its damage increase applies to any weapon in use it equally efficient to use with various weaponry.

 

Warcry (Valkyr) This increases armor, slows enemies and speeds up melee attack speed. To get the most out of this one would have to use the melee swing speed to do damage on enemies who are to slow to escape or hit back at full capacity. However increased armor is nice on any frame with a high armor rating for defense in general. And slowed enemies make for easier targets to kill all around. It's primarily specialized in the melee tank/brawler role with a certain amount of use as an ally buff and enemy nerf. Yet using it with various weaponry is efficient enough.

 

Contagion (Saryn) This increases melee damage. This promotes a specialization in close combat. Since it has literally no effect on any type of gun/bow.throwing knife it is not at all efficient to use with various weaponry.

 

Hysteria (Valkyr) This grants invincibility, lifesteal and certain melee weapon based modifiers. This power locks Valkyr into using her claw weapons. This goes beyond the idea of inefficient to use other types of weapon, it is literally impossible to. It's specialized in the melee tank/brawler role to the the degree that it excludes anything else.

 

Those various powers showcase different ways to approach improving a frames melee capability. In practical use today.

Some offer efficient use of other weapons as well, some do nothing for other weapons, and one full on prevents the use of other weapons.

When the word "versatility" get's used in reference to weapon choices I think it's clear to see which powers could be said to promote it, and which powers do not.

 

This upcoming rework for Excalibur, as described by DE so far, suggests a power that will pull out a sword and use it for the duration of the ability (or until toggled off). That effectively promotes the sword theme and the melee frame component, the energy waves give it a ranged aspect of some kind.... but it goes directly against choice in weapons as it literally is a weapon in itself. Is that good or bad? Depends on who you ask.

Some of us feel like that is taking the "swordsman" specialization aspect too far. There are certainly multiple ways to go to improve Excalibur's melee capability and swordsman theme. The "sword mode" idea is just one of many. And for some...it's too far.

In which case: those people feel that at the very least if DE is going to that far with that one of his powers to promote the "swordsman" theme we should get some other power(s) that actually promote the use of other weapons. Not just allow it, but promote it. Not just let it happen, but make it about efficient use.  Not just a "don't hit that button" kind of thing. But a "hit this button to help it" kind of thing. 

 

Hopefully that makes my stance more clear.

 

Now, again, it's not going to serve any purpose to argue over whether Excalibur had/didn't have, should/shouldn't OR is supposed/not supposed to have powers that promote the use of other weapons or just swords. It's a largely matter of viewpoint and preference. It's pretty subjective. I don't expect to change any minds here. Nor do I feel the need to justify my preferences to others.

I only want to make sure I have communicated it correctly. 

 

 

I do not see it Ronyn, really... i´m sorry. --I do not understand where your concerns regarding his versatility are coming from?

Hopefully the above clarifies where my concerns are coming from better.

You should be able to "see it" even if you don't agree with it.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Buzkyl]

Unless they ALSO give him some way to improve the "choose any weapon/build how you want to" part of his identity....something of his originally intended theme is indeed lost.

 

The build how you want to/use any weapon part of his theme also needs some updating because it has fallen behind.

If it is not addressed in the rework it will just fall away and all we will really have is the swordsman part.

 

I keep hearing this and tried to ignore it but i just can't anymore.

 

 

Excalibur was the first frame created, both in canon Lore and by the Devs themselves. He is the very basis model of the frames (as evident by the at times you'll see an excalibur model loaded before your own frame). His appearance objectively is the most simplistic (concerning frames) in the game, bordering on generic, he has no unique traits to him. He predates everything and was at one moment the only frame available in the game. An

 

That is why he is horrible state he is in, Exaclibur at his very core is an outdated idea. His very skills reflect this. And it has to as if he was the only frame in game he had to be able to adapt to each and nearly every situations

 

Then as we got more frames we got better specialized frames.

 

A frame that can do anything but specialized in nothing. While said frame is possible to achieve it isn't excalibur, if anything it's likely Volt. Other similar generalist have thier own niches, Rhino is a tank, Oberon is healer support. Excalibur fits nowhere, which was his original role, but as the game has now evolved so must he.

 

Versatility comes with how skills are being used an not the skills themselves themselves, which is why volt I called volt a generalist, all of his skills dip into each area equally but retain their own flavor. He both enhances gunplay yet is equally able to engage in melee combat (solely because of speed).

 

Excalibur is a frame that is said to be versatile yet his general point towards him being a sword theme frame (with reference theme does not determine how his skills can be used) his slash dash scales with melee and closes , Blind opens up to stealth bonuses (Now finishers with augment), his jump gets him out of tight areas and away from close enemies and javelin own augment enhances melee damage.

 

The Excalibur change is simple the Staff putting Excalibur in the direction he would be in if he was released later on if he wasn't the first frame in game. There is nothing stopping excalibur from still being a mobile fighter than can be used in most situations he is just now getting is own area he can dominate in, which is being the Swordsman of the warframes

[Ronyn]

For goodness sake people.... I am not looking to prevent Excalibur from being able to dominate as the swordsman of the warframes.

Yet, for some reason, almost every one of these debate keeps coming back to the misapplied outcry about how he needs to be. 

As if I am trying to stop it.

 

Excalibur was the first frame created, both in canon Lore and by the Devs themselves. He is the very basis model of the frames (as evident by the at times you'll see an excalibur model loaded before your own frame). His appearance objectively is the most simplistic (concerning frames) in the game, bordering on generic, he has no unique traits to him. He predates everything and was at one moment the only frame available in the game. An

 

That is why he is horrible state he is in, Exaclibur at his very core is an outdated idea. His very skills reflect this. And it has to as if he was the only frame in game he had to be able to adapt to each and nearly every situations

 

A frame that can do anything but specialized in nothing.

 

The Excalibur change is simple the Staff putting Excalibur in the direction he would be in if he was released later on if he wasn't the first frame in game. There is nothing stopping excalibur from still being a mobile fighter than can be used in most situations he is just now getting is own area he can dominate in, which is being the Swordsman of the warframes

 

Excalibur fits nowhere, which was his original role, but as the game has now evolved so must he.

I see this opinion often and while there is certainly some truth to it I disagree with the overall conclusion it's being taken to.

IMO Excalibur, in his initial idea, is not outdated. Only his execution is outdated in the current game. 

I don't believe his intended goal was to "fit nowhere". He was always meant to be been many things, one of them was the swordsman, one of them was the mobile fighter, and one of them was the "build how you want to/choose from any weapon/suits many playstyles" guy.

Warframes commonly have more than ONE aspect to their themes and play-style.

You disagree with what Excalibur was initially meant to be? Fine. Lots of folks on both sides of that.

Who is wrong or right? Well how can you prove one way or the other?

 

Regardless of what one thinks about that though-

There are multiple ways in which Excalibur's sword theme and melee-centric play-style can be brought out in the new meta.

There are ways in which the idea of "choice in weapons" can be altered from the basic idea of slot what you want to.....

into the idea that he can bolster multiple weapons.  There are practical examples of both in game right now.  It's not a strange idea.

 

It is not a far gone conclusion that "The Excalibur change is simple the Staff putting Excalibur in the direction he would be in if he was released later on if he wasn't the first frame in game.". Excalibur's rework could go multiple ways. Excalibur's themes and playstytles could be expressed many ways. 

 

Seriously, are you saying that the specific ideas in the upcoming rework are the ONLY way he could go to fit the themes and playstyles?

 

 (with reference theme does not determine how his skills can be used) 

Theme does not determine how skills can be used, the function of each skill does.

 

Versatility comes with how skills are being used an not the skills themselves themselves, 

Again-

A Frames versatility (or call it efficient uses if you like) is defined by the potential use of it's stats and powers.

It is from that potential that players can make a choice. A choice out of the capabilities available.

if a power is not capable of good damage it's not an option to use it as a damage power.

if a power is not capable of good mobility it's not an option to use it as a mobility power.

 

which is why volt I called volt a generalist, all of his skills dip into each area equally but retain their own flavor. He both enhances gunplay yet is equally able to engage in melee combat (solely because of speed).

To clarify-Volt enhances gun play (Soley because of electric shield) and enhances Melee (Soley because of speed) and both powers are stylized to fit his "electricity" theme. He excels in both because he actually enhances both. That particular versatility in choice of which weapons to bolster doesn't mean he has no specialization. In terms of specialization I'd say he is a high speed striker and mobile support. Volt, overall, might even be better at long range or at close range depending on who you ask.  At any rate, Volt has powers that improve him at both.

 

Me suggesting that Excalibur gain ways to enhance both types of weapon does not mean I want him to have no specialization.

 

A frame that can do anything but specialized in nothing. While said frame is possible to achieve it isn't excalibur, if anything it's likely Volt. Other similar generalist have thier own niches, Rhino is a tank, Oberon is healer support. 

I'm not saying that Excalibur should be a "frame that do anything but specialize in nothing." Other people keep saying that, other people keep saying that is what I want, other people keep saying that is what I am after..it is not. 

 

And yes, Other frames that some generalist nature also their own niches. Rhino (Roar bolsters damage output from all weapons and powers) and oberon (nothing in his kit is improved or impeded based on weapons used). This is not, in any way, a counter to what I am asking for.

 

 

 his slash dash scales with melee and closes , Blind opens up to stealth bonuses (Now finishers with augment), his jump gets him out of tight areas and away from close enemies and javelin own augment enhances melee damage.

Pardon me, I must have forgotten that SD scales with melee weapon because it's damage is still terrible. lol

Though let's not be one sided about things. Slash dash can be used to close the distance OR to create some.

Just as jump can be used to get out of tight areas or close to elevated enemies.

His current augments do improve his melee ability. No debate there.

--------------------------------------------------------

Edited April 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Pizzarugi]

I still don't see these improvements being all that useful. No matter how much you tweak him, LoS on his only forms of CC will severely limit his potential compared to other frames.

Let's see how long he lasts in endgame endless missions compared to someone like Loki or Nyx.

[Thaumatos]

The "sword mode" idea is just one of many. And for some...it's too far. In which case: those people feel that at the very least if DE is going to that far with that one of his powers to promote the "swordsman" theme we should get some other power(s) that actually promote the use of other weapons. Not just allow it, but promote it. Not just let it happen, but make it about efficient use. Not just a "don't hit that button" kind of thing. But a "hit this button to help it" kind of thing.

Hopefully that makes my stance more clear.

Now, again, it's not going to serve any purpose to argue over whether Excalibur had/didn't have, should/shouldn't OR is supposed/not supposed to have powers that promote the use of other weapons or just swords. It's a largely matter of viewpoint and preference. It's pretty subjective. I don't expect to change any minds here. Nor do I feel the need to justify my preferences to others.

This is pretty much where I thought you were taking it. Abilities that specifically draw from your choice of weapon...and not just visually. Arguably, Radial Blind was an indirect way of doing that by promoting melee combat and actively discouraging gunfire.

Either way, I see your position.

I just hope his new ultimate doesn't turn him into Valkyr-lite...always transforming and never caring about any of his weapons. He should be re-worked to utilize the new movement systems to a greater advantage than other frames while expanding on his swordsman theme. I don't want to see Excalibur turned into a "Hulk Smash!" frame.

[Lagomorf]

The damage multiplier from Radial Blind is not it´s defining trait and it´s removal is not a crippling nerf at all. The new way of opening enemys for Finisher with it seems a lot more apropiate to me, regardless of efficency or Enemy armor.

 

Again, synergy is the key here! RB is still an amazing CC Ability, what has changed is that you have to be in the midst of the fight now, instead of standing somewhere in a corner, blinding everything 3 Rooms ahead.

Currently it is neither desirable nor rewarding with Excalibur to stand in the midst fo things, with the upcoming changes it most likely will be, so let´s wait and see how "effective" RB will be then!

I have to warn you that finishers take a lot of time to perform.

Would you even try to finish out every single enemy in a crowd of high level Bombards? No, because your blind duration would not let you do the job. 

Mellee bonus against blinded enemies was a perfect way to buff Excalibur's mellee against any level enemies, especially when it did NOT disappeared if your teammates or companion attack those enemies.

Also, Ground FInishers(whith animation) do regular weapon damage x3, not the finisher damage. Only things that do finisher damage right now are Bladestorm and Hydroid abbilities.

Also, I liked being able to diminish crowds of enemies whith Glaive after a blind. Now it is simply impossible.

[Ronyn]

This is pretty much where I thought you were taking it. Abilities that specifically draw from your choice of weapon...and not just visually.

Yes exactly.

 

Arguably, Radial Blind was an indirect way of doing that by promoting melee combat and actively discouraging gunfire.

Promoting melee yes, though the only thing discouraged is noise. Silent or silenced range weapons aren't discouraged.

 

For a simple example of how to do the same thing for guns. What if those javelins left stuck in enemies after casting radial javelin caused extra damage when shot. Pretty simple way to encourage gunfire without much alteration to his kit.

 

 

I just hope his new ultimate doesn't turn him into Valkyr-lite...always transforming and never caring about any of his weapons. He should be re-worked to utilize the new movement systems to a greater advantage than other frames while expanding on his swordsman theme. I don't want to see Excalibur turned into a "Hulk Smash!" frame.

Yes indeed. So..give Excalibur a reason to care about his weapon loadout, a way to increase his mobility and some general differences from Valkyr. That's the kind of thing (and a bit more) that I was after with the "Exceed" idea in the link from my earlier post.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/230673-excalibur-20-thank-you-de-for-listening-to-us-we-are-looking-forward-to-the-changes-now/page-31#entry4907964

Its the kind of power that could be part of his kit alongside whatever energy sword mode we get.

No loss to his swordsman identity but an increase to his other options. Far as I'm concerned it's a win/win.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Ronyn

[(PSN)NavajoShaman]

I like all the ideas except for changing radial javelin. The new LOS changes that they are implementing are fine but taking his radial javelin back to the original is a terrible ideal. First and foremost because even in the middle of a crowd enemies the original javelin was not guaranteed to hit many enemies at all, now that coupled with the fact that its not very often you run into a large group of enemies that are attacking you within point blank range for RJ to be effective makes it completely useless unless your fighting an infested horde so ABSOLUTELY NO DO CHANGE RADIAL JAVELIN BACK TO OLD USELESS JAVELIN. I mean the fact that it cost 100 energy to use and you might be.lucky to get 5 hits out of 20 because im not sure how often you play but the grineer and corpus and corrupted i fought today shot at me while hiding behind objects and peeking around corners. Even with punch through this would still be a horrible power because it just streams out with no aim mechanics at all so what are tye chances these enemies are lined up with you so that your ultimate ability is useful at all? I can tell the chances...next to none. There is a reason they changed the mechanics behind radial javelin in the first place, bexaise it was hands down the worst ability of any frame in the game. Now simply speeding up the cast time would fine with and if they wanted to add a a puncture proc or a bleed proc thats also fine but dont create an awesome idea like the energy sword and then follow it up by making RJ useless. Lets face it super jump is more useful than the old RJ was.

[SeargantHaztagazpacho]

Is this 16.5 or U17?