Tenno Operations, A Viable Endgame?

[Sixty5]

Hello friends.

 

About a week ago I posted a topic outlining why past endgame concepts have not been successful, as well as explaining why the current proposed endgame will also fail. Before I continue I would recommend you ready it here. Don't be scared off by the wall of text, it isn't too big, and there is a TL;DR at the bottom too.

 

The thing is, I've never been one to give any sort of feedback without also providing suggestions on the subject, and after a bit of thought I reckon I have come up with something that could work for an endgame. 

 

The basic idea is to have a set of multi-part missions for each planet, with each set culminating in an epic boss fight. 

Sounds simple enough, but there are a few twists to make things a bit more interesting. 

 

To start, enemies would begin at a nice high level, say 60-70 and would be spawning constantly throughout the mission. You WILL need good gear. This is the place for you to be thankful for your Soma or Boltor Prime. For players without these weapons, tough cookies, this is end-game, come back when you get good.

 

Secondly the map would be slightly different to normal. The maps would consist of a large central area, similar to a defense map with a drop-zone/LZfrom which you start the game. From there a number of additional rooms would spawn.

Think of it like a defense map with normal maps attached to it like some sort of spiders web. This map design facilitates the gameplay aspects of the challenge.

 

Speaking  of which, these missions would not play like a normal run. Each node would have 3 pre-set objectives derived from regular mission types. These would have to be completed one after another to finish the mission. In addition, at certain points, enemies would have to be exterminated from an area. 

At the end of each mission players would have to defend/survive in the drop zone whilst waiting for extraction.

The overall idea here is to add a bit of story to each mission.

As an example a mission could require you to capture/interrogate a target in order for access codes, which you then use to raid the ships vault, the mission ends with you sabotaging the reactor and then extract. 

With the available mission types there is potential for at least 36 unique combinations of mission.

 

The final mission ends with an epic boss raid, similar to how new Hek works, but with said boss being more of a bullet sponge rather than having invulnerability stages. Bosses would be granted either high damage reduction or an ungodly amount of HP as compensation.

The advantage of having boss fights here is that because this is endgame, bosses can be insanely hard to kill, meaning that the scope of what can be done with them increases massively, as designers need not worry about walling off an area or frame due to insane difficulty.

 

As for rewards, killing the boss on the final node will reward you with a war trophy, a bit of that boss that you can wear as a cosmetic on your warframe in one of the armour slots. This would show that you had completed said challenge and were generally an awesome person.

In addition the normal nodes act as timed missons, there would be no reward, or incentive to complete these missions faster, except for the purpose of having your name on the leaderboard. Furthermore because said missions would have a number of stops and high level enemies, it would be difficult to simply rush the mission, and in fact stealth runs would likely be the fastest way to complete the mission.

 

Finally only a couple of these missions would be available at any one time, acting on a week long rotation. This would help with matchmaking and would work to add longevity as at the very least it would take 7 weeks to obtain each item, which I admit is an artificial time-wall, but I feel is one that is justified.

 

 

My main criteria for proper endgame content are as follows:

 

• Not award power

   

   

• Enjoyable

   

   

• Challenging/Justify high level gear

   

   

• Have high replayability

   

   

 

I feel with this concept that I have managed to address most of them with this, but If there is anything you think I have missed, feel free to point it out to me, I'd love to be able to flesh this out a tad more. In addition any and all questions are welcome. I'll even add them to this post in the questions section below. 

 

Anyways thank you much for reading and for your feedback.

 

Questions:

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sixty5

[_Bilko_]

I like this Idea, you can have my +1

[WingedCrusade]

If I get to wear a Tyl Regor helmet with the Upside-Down face mask included, I'll be the happiest frame alive.

[Sixty5]

If I get to wear a Tyl Regor helmet with the Upside-Down face mask included, I'll be the happiest frame alive.

I don't think having it as an alt helmet would be functional, but you could definitely strap it to your shoulder.

 

It would be cool though.

[DarthRevan84]

Ill be happy if they just add SOME kind of endgame...im floating at MR16 with little or nothing to do.

[Sixty5]

Ill be happy if they just add SOME kind of endgame...im floating at MR16 with little or nothing to do.

That is the idea =D

[Vyrn]

I like this idea simply because I want a bullet sponge. +1

[taiiat]

d'aww. could use some more features from the huge post i outlined as something that's infinitely replayable :<

 

or that would be something to eat time rather than provide much story perhaps. idunno. 'endgame' would need to consist of many things so you don't get bored of it, and can change things up without changing games.

[Sixty5]

d'aww. could use some more features from the huge post i outlined as something that's infinitely replayable :<

 

or that would be something to eat time rather than provide much story perhaps. idunno. 'endgame' would need to consist of many things so you don't get bored of it, and can change things up without changing games.

Your post offered a number of good suggestions, a number of which are applicable here. I would probably have included them if I had only had a rough outline of this when I read your post, however, I had this mostly thought out by then, to the point where It would have been rather difficult to work them in.

 

Multiple options for endgame are however desirable.

[Kirby47]

Enemies starting at level 70 is a bit too much, maybe around 50-60

[Sixty5]

Enemies starting at level 70 is a bit too much, maybe around 50-60

Enemies will not scale in this mission. 

 

Plus these missions are meant to be difficult

[kimahn]

for the awards, the problem is that mods fail to create replayability desire. when you maxed them, you maxed them. this is why i though of that :

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/236731-rpg-analogies-theories-on-the-loot/

 

for the endgame itself :

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233833-pigmans-necropole-exhaustive-answer/

 

 

 

but ultimately, i realised that we are something like 2% of the people to really want endgame. we re not a commercial target, this system is not money generating, and as such, need to be put in second plan.

 

i think the game should focus on making the casual experience a bit less horrible i'm pretty sure we have a for of 1/20 gamer that will stay on the game after the 3 first hours, and something life half of that that will buy plat, this is why i posted that btw https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/229878-story-mode-20/?p=2663223), and the free to play experience a bit less crudely sanctioned. when we'll be something like 500k (i mean the math is simple, thriving on selling weapons to a 50kplayerbase is way harder than selling not needed micro item at a ridiculous price to a half million player base. i dont know the financial situation of DE and what plan they have so ..) regular players we will talk about real endgame, and how the typical "mass murder superhero" scenario need to be tweaked.

 

we should realise. people above rank 13 are unwanted, they suck up energy and are less likely to buy plat.

 

if you want challenge, go elsewhere. this is the response i got from the council EVERY SINGLE TIME we talked about that (yeah i know, i m not the most diplomatic and measured person, sorry).

 

hope it helps.

Edited June 7, 2014 by kimahn

[taiiat]

but ultimately, i realised that we are something like 2% of the people to really want endgame. we re not a commercial target, this system is not money generating, and as such, need to be put in second plan.

actually, without a Core Player Base, a game can never expand. it will be stagnant at best.

 

that Core Player Base are the "'hardcore'" people. 

 

 

you need both ends of the spectrum. but the 'higher' end of the spectrum is less common and harder to talk into sticking around.

 

as horrible as it sounds, you can always find more new players, or talk ones that quit into playing again. the less investement, and less history of the game, the more like they are to try something new, or try something twice.

 

but ultimately, gotta have PR to advertise for new players. ads on websites and Television and all kinds of Developer hype only goes so far. gotta have people tell their friends about a game for the best chance of actually snagging that player.

 

'higher' players may not be a common commercial target, but in a game that relies on community, like all online games do - it's critical to have that too. can't just ignore it. if a new player finds an empty game, poof, no more player.

 

 

both ends should be considered 50/50. both are equally as important.

[Sixty5]

for the awards, the problem is that mods fail to create replayability desire. when you maxed them, you maxed them. this is why i though of that :

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/236731-rpg-analogies-theories-on-the-loot/

 

for the endgame itself :

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233833-pigmans-necropole-exhaustive-answer/

 

 

 

but ultimately, i realised that we are something like 2% of the people to really want endgame. we re not a commercial target, this system is not money generating, and as such, need to be put in second plan.

 

i think the game should focus on making the casual experience a bit less horrible i'm pretty sure we have a for of 1/20 gamer that will stay on the game after the 3 first hours, and something life half of that that will buy plat, this is why i posted that btw https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/229878-story-mode-20/?p=2663223), and the free to play experience a bit less crudely sanctioned. when we'll be something like 500k (i mean the math is simple, thriving on selling weapons to a 50kplayerbase is way harder than selling not needed micro item at a ridiculous price to a half million player base. i dont know the financial situation of DE and what plan they have so ..) regular players we will talk about real endgame, and how the typical "mass murder superhero" scenario need to be tweaked.

 

we should realise. people above rank 13 are unwanted, they suck up energy and are less likely to buy plat.

 

if you want challenge, go elsewhere. this is the response i got from the council EVERY SINGLE TIME we talked about that (yeah i know, i m not the most diplomatic and measured person, sorry).

 

hope it helps.

 

I never put mods down as a reward for this. They would be purely cosmetic, or as a spot on a leaderboard. And while I agree that theoretically people who have played the game for a long time would be unlikely to be decent customers, the number of these players who purchase new prime access packs and the like on day 1 of them being released is rather high.

Couple that with the fact that the veteran playerbase is what makes the game what it is.

[kimahn]

i sincerely hope you're right. and i sincerely hope that someone at DE is experienced in matter of pve gamedesign "high end" oriented. all of this is far from DE previous games, and i think it will make time, a long time before we ll have a viable endgame.

 

the 1week lock down correspond to content that should not be farmed, this limit is put to avoid hardcore clearing the first bosses and overstuffing themselves, nullyfying the difficulty curve, typically you have "gearcheck" trash mobs or a boss, then .. a dps race ? (can be inversed), an add fight, a boss-with-parts etc etc ... but everything revolves around loot.

 

this stuff add to you something like 1% of all your effective stats per piece, when you cleared the tier, you roughly won 10% of all your stats. just enough to make you go a bit farther, but not enough to let you rofl stomp. it doesn't apply to warframe since our firepower is not equal at all from frame to frame, from weapons to weapons.

 

AND. we dont have pieces with stats. things that can be replaced and symbolise our progression in high end content, plus, the whole game revolves around randomness ... there is nothing random in high end gaming in ANY GAME in the world (bold affirmation i know, but i think i'm not far from truth)

 

so here what we have :

 

 

- a dps who can go from 4k linear to 30k. if we base the high end gaming on dps, we will have 0 variety in loadouts.

-  frames ULTRA SQUISHY. we cannot face tank or have any mechanic involving enemies manipulation and tanking. never ever.

- absolute game breaking crowd control, so we cannot base the high end on advanced mob mechanics and behaviours.

 

SO .. what we can have ?

 

- waves. sure.

- exploration. a lot.

- missions made to last hours, and generated continuously, with regular extraction and incursion chances. because we dont want to lock the player for hours, but ... long dungeons is kind of the point of high end gaming. this is not a 15mn thing.

- localised event, that can apply to any tile (or we could order them by tiles, wide tiles with big events, small tiles with smaller ones)

- since this games revolves around reflex and movement, we need mobs that can splash aoe and other things we have to avoid. this is vital.

- death is not productive at all. 4 lives .... no. we need respawn points. this is the basis of any super hard fight. redoing the whole mission is far too punitive, not having any time loss is too easy too. i already responded to that in pigman's answer ..

 

 

- cosmetic rewards. yes. but cosmetic cannot be produced ad infinitum. WE NEED A TIERED STUFF, with no art, only stats. WE CRAVE IT. this is easy to implement, freakin super easy to produce content, and it is the ultra best skinner box since the beginning of competitive pve video gaming. if you dont like my idea feel free to find another way to do it

 

- fighting high level mobs is acutally useless. even quite stupid. the xp is ridiculous, the rewards are inexistant. with tiered stuff, we could have a reason to fight bigger mobs. if this is done, you can have a 7 days lockdown on a special tier, and no lock down on a bit less hard one. like 70 and 50. (my implant idea is not meant for that but can be tweaked quite easily)

 

 

anyway. i would love to see that. useless to say, if we have high end, it will be a balance nightmare. NIGHTMARE. plus half of our powers need to disappear. and since our survival is tied to rage,quick thinking and life strike, disruption is not an option. have fun with that :p

Edited June 7, 2014 by kimahn

[kimahn]

oh and i put this on a spearated post. about enemies.

 

just a quick math thing. lets say you want to make a regular tough guys, with awesome move, who need 15s to deploy them all.

 

based on the highest dps weapon in the game, who generate 26k dps, more or less, you need to have 26 000 damage per second*15seconds*4 players. i will not even take moving and armour in account to simplify the thing.

 

it makes 1 560 000 hp. useless to say, if you want to kill that with melee, lets take a simple melee, the simplest : dragon nikana, with an average of 7k dps linear you will need 1 minute to kill it.

 

so, 2 possibilities :

 

- we rescale weapon son mastery rank and accept the obsolescence of weapons OR we find a way to make any weapon in the game capable to match each other. (i tried to bring the start of a solution here : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/228281-weapons-upgrade-system/?p=2645546 )

 

but even like that, it doesnt solve the problem of melee, being far less powerful than range, even more with the penalty of movement and the need of combo building to reach maximal dps ( for me, X2.5 is the max factor, after that, the number of strikes needed is stupid)

 

again, we can choose 2 styles : locking the player to a said playstyle ( range this, melee that) OR make the enemy mitigate the damage by sources (i received a ranged damage, i'll nulllify 75% of the damage, i received melee damage, i take the full blow i received range damage, i take  the normal blow, if i take melee, it hits my weak points and i take +75% damage)

 

 

in any case, the enemies need to adapt in order to be tune on a set damage per second. this is the only way to have a healthy high end gaming. the weak have 3s life span, the medium 10, the big 20, the bosses 1 minute.

 

they need to smooth the extreme sawtooth of our weapon output capabilities with smart mitigation (useless to say ours have to be reviewed too ). if you have a brilliant idea on this, feel free to post it :)

Edited June 7, 2014 by kimahn

[taiiat]

-  frames ULTRA SQUISHY. we cannot face tank or have any mechanic involving enemies manipulation and tanking. never ever.

- absolute game breaking crowd control, so we cannot base the high end on advanced mob mechanics and behaviours.

isn't this what Warframe has been revolving around? we avoid taking Damage with mobility, and Utility that then rewards us with placing ourselves well and to usually control the situation?

 

apparently. Trash Units are important for some reason, and instead of all Enemies mattering to some degree, apparently some of them need to be useless other than free XP and free Ammo / Energy, so we need true Heavies(current Heavies are more like Medium Units currently), Minibosses, and more Bosses which are highly resistant to our Powers.

completely immune makes the Powers feel very meh and pointless to have, so you don't want them to be completely immune. but a pretty high resistance to make sure that Powers don't completely trivialize the fight.

bonus points if such Units can remove effects from themselves after a delay, and some sort of 'fighting' against the Power.

 

 

 

and i would definitely aim for the route of making Weapons pretty much all relatively comparable, because if people want gear checks and stat ladders - there's a thousand other games that do that. Warframe needs to stand out from the crowd, not become the crowd. good luck attracting customers if your pitch line is "play this game instead of those, even though this one is almost identical to those!". if they're already playing one of those almost identical games, and have been for a bit - it's unlikely they'll switch games because you ask nicely. you need to actually be different.

 

why should they play your game instead of another one? that's the entire question behind Video Game Development. what do YOU have, that stands out and would make players want to play your game instead of the infinite number of other games out there. otherwise, you're not competing for customers, you're only hoping that some of them choose your game over another which is very similar. you're basically relying on 'RNG' for customers - a suicidal business model.

[kimahn]

 actually be different.

 

why should they play your game instead of another one? that's the entire question behind Video Game Development. what do YOU have, that stands out and would make players want to play your game instead of the infinite number of other games out there. otherwise, you're not competing for customers, you're only hoping that some of them choose your game over another which is very similar. you're basically relying on 'RNG' for customers - a suicidal business model.

 

be different is a thing, be radically different is another. i m pretty sure most of the player are comfortable with a certain amount of pillars. if you think we re this far from pacman well ... i m not that sure. the goal is to improve what already exist, get rid of what is totally outdated and was implemented because of the technical limitations/ lack of perspectives. video gaming is not really different from cooking or medicine imho, if you thow everything away and you say "here, i ll be radically new, F*** the ancients." you ll probably end with a crap game, far from what is done today...

 

to the question why choose this game ? in my idea, i would see :

 

- the design, the whole mercs/crusaders in space (we need to drop the ninja punchline, it was fun at start, now it s just a limitation/lack of coherence)

- the ambience, the background, the story the dynamic events.

- the high action pace / fluidity and simplicity of the gameplay

- the high customisation of every aspect of your warrior

- the flexibility of choice in your loadout

- the challenging pve and the theorycraft associated to it

- the replayability thru randomness.

-the good lifespan, without being totally out of scale (ihmo some weapons like the supra who needs 8h hours of farming plus a dojo plus multiple crafts with huge timewalls to end being a super duper mega turd is heartbeaking, an average weapon should be uable 5 hours after you took the objective of making it, perhaps 20 in vhl)

 

and the dev team, the link between the player and the developer through the forum, twitch etc etc

 

speaking of place, i would see this game like something between diablo, anarchy online, and borderlands. way lighter than a mmo, but a bit less dumb than borderland ?

Edited June 7, 2014 by kimahn

[kimahn]

on a totally different topic, this is what i call "moving constraint", a prolly why i really like my first hours on wildstar. this is the first endboss you ll ever met in the game.