Does De Not Get That We Only Fight Multistage Bosses 'once'?

[Phatose]

I'm going to go as far as to say that bosses in Warframe are not fun at all.  Really, I had more fun fighting the first miniboss in Bayonetta then any boss in Waframe.  Hell, I'd go as far as to say I had more fun fighting basic enemies in Dark Souls more then any boss in Warframe.  There, at least I have to avoid their attacks and counterattack between them.  Here?

 

With no evasion, and offense options that always boil down to "Shoot it until it's invulnerable, then wait.  Lather, rinse, repeat", it's a dull fight.  There's no dodging, no blocking, no evasion, no tricky timings to hit an opening. 

 

They're just not dynamic at all.

[ArmyUnit]

Also I should have said in my previous post that the "RNG wall" to get to Lephantis isn't really even a wall. Sure the nav cord system will slow down new players from getting to the Derelicts (which they shouldn't be going to yet anyways, since OD levels are mid to late game), but once you've played through the game a bit, it is very easy to get to Lephantis.

 

Vay Hek is of course a very different story, and I hope DE reduces the RNG involved in getting to him.

[Innocent_Flower]

You can get many a taxi to lephantis nowadays, but that doesn't realy mean that he's popular. 

[Ganpot]

Focusing on boss fights is actually a good idea.  However, the execution has been incredibly lacking (for multiple reasons).  Fighting a boss should be the hardest and most exhilarating content available in the game.  The highest level bosses should be stomping even veteran players into the ground over and over again, forcing them to learn and become better at the game.  The only way players will keep repeating the same content (especially after they've gotten all the rewards for doing so) is if that content truly challenges them. 

 

I suppose I should give a random (as in, made up on the spot) example to help illustrate my point:

Boss: Golem

Estimated Time to Beat: 60 minutes

Scenario: 1. Players encounter Golem's previous form mid-mission (like every other boss mission), quickly kill it, and head to extraction. 

2. Once players attempt to extract, Golem's new form appears, rips their escape pods apart, and flings the Tenno onto the outside surface of the ship.  Now the real fight begins.  Because the players are in space, their shields and health do not naturally regenerate (although they also do not drain). 

Attacks: 1. Whip - Golem sweeps his very long tentacles sideways, knocking over and damaging players all around him/it (can be avoided by jumping) 

2. Devour - grabs a nearby player with its hand and eats them, regenerating 25% of Golem's maximum health and instantly killing the player (has a long and obvious wind-up animation, and can be avoided by getting out of range)

3. Slam - Golem strikes downwards with one of his tentacles (can be avoided by rolling at the right time)

4. Scream - Golem screams loudly.  All players' movement keys (WASD) are randomized for 6 seconds (cannot be avoided, but deals no damage)

5. Plague Strike - the third leg launches itself outwards and attempts to bite a player.  If successful, that player loses 60% of their maximum health over 10 seconds (can be avoided by blocking or rolling at the right time).  This effect can be ended early by getting within 5 meters of another player.  If that occurs, the poisoned player is cured, but the condition starts anew on the second player (can only be transferred once every 3 seconds). 

6. Nanite Swarm - an invincible swarm of smoke trails behind each player (adjusted to each player's movement speed).  Being caught in the smoke inflicts damage rapidly (can be avoided with constant movement)

7. Spit - Golem spits at a player.  If successful, that player is blinded for 10 seconds (the middle 80-90% of their screen goes white) (can be avoided by blocking or rolling at the right time)

8. Leap - Golem leaps forwards a fair distance.  Any player within 10 meters of the impact zone is flung backwards and knocked down (can be avoided by moving)

9. Yank - Golem grabs a player with a long tentacle and pulls that player closer (can be avoided by rolling at the right time)

10. Acid Pit - Golem spews a patchwork of acid pools on the ground (these last 20 seconds).  Stepping in one slows down movement speed by 60% and deals high damage over 6 seconds (can be avoided by, well, not stepping in them)

11. Summon Ancients - somehow creates/summons 3 ancients (random type) per player 

12. Death Beam (just because) - Golem charges up a massive beam attack from inside his mouth for 3 seconds.  If successful, the beam instantly downs (but does not kill) the target player (can be avoided by damaging Golem's mouth during the wind-up, causing the attack to cease immediately)

Death: Each part of Golem (6+ parts total) has its own health bar and attacks independently (it should be slightly limited in order to prevent cheap simultaneous attack combinations).  If a part has its health depleted, it is immediately destroyed (parts can be regenerated if Golem eats someone).  Each of Golem's parts must be destroyed in order to kill it. 

 

If players aren't panicking during the entire fight (at least on the hardest difficulty), you've done something wrong.  Now imagine if there was a boss rush mode which let you take on every boss in the game in rapid succession (or even two at a time!) as one long mission.  You wanted a challenge?  There you go. 

 

Unfortunately, this kind of thing won't be possible so long as overpowered weapons, mods, and abilities are still in the game.  It doesn't matter how well-designed a boss is if players can easily murder it at their leisure.  Of course that's going to be boring.  In order to successfully design a challenging boss (or any other enemy, really), you'd first have to redo a lot of basic game systems (which is exactly why I've been advocating for that course of action ASAP). 

 

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention this in my post, but I would just like to state the obvious in regards to gating game content behind grinding or RNG: it is unjustifiable and utter bull****.  It's not fun, it doesn't help player retention in the long run (I still don't have Hydroid, because I simply refuse to bother with Vay Hek until that grind-wall is removed), and such strategies will cause resentment over time (which is the worst thing a developer could possibly do). 

 

Grind-walls are basically the result of a developer holding their own game hostage (and, hilariously enough, grind-walls are also an implicit admission that the core game isn't captivating enough to keep people playing it normally).  It kind of reminds me of this Critical Miss comic about Sony and piracy: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/8093-34 .  It's a no-win situation, because eventually players will reach their limit and just quit out of frustration. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Ganpot

[Innocent_Flower]

I think the biggest problem here, that the op didn't mention, is that the boss was said to take 6 months of work (or something like that) 

 

 

 

No, don't do that. Spend six months on things that we fight regularly, not one-off battles. 

[notionphil]

I think the biggest problem here, that the op didn't mention, is that the boss was said to take 6 months of work (or something like that) 

 

 

 

No, don't do that. Spend six months on things that we fight regularly, not one-off battles. 

 

Right, sorry, I missed that point.

 

If its going to be 10 enemies or 1 boss...either make that boss a frequent part of our routine, or give us 10 enemies.

[Paradoxbomb]

Unless I missed something, I don't recall them saying anything about the newer bosses being gated off like Hek and Lephantis. Although I still agree that it definitely is annoying when they do lock them off (particularly Hek since you can't get the coordinates from normal gameplay like the Derelict ones). Here's hoping they actually stick to there word this time and put J3 on Eris rather than pull a Lephantis on us.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[RealPandemonium]

Who is "we?" A quick snapshot of where players prefer to play: 84% not in assassination missions.

 

Assassination is the second most popular mission type, more popular than Defense.  Am I missing something here?

 

Also, Lephantis is hardly locked behind RNG.  I could build 100 ODA keys and I don't even play derelicts that often.

 

Really, only Vay Hek is a pain to fight but that's the only way to make the fight fail-able when people bring their "op weapon x" and deplete as much health as is possible in less than a second.  I didn't get to see Vay Hek mount his super mech at the end of his fight until my 4th run because my squad killed him before the animation could complete (I didn't even know he was supposed to mount it!)  (That was also my last run, no trouble getting Hydroid for me.)

[notionphil]

Assassination is the second most popular mission type, more popular than Defense.  Am I missing something here?

 

Apparently so.

 

You are probably missing the fact that 84% of players prefer to play missions which only contain normal enemies.

Defense, survival, spy etc all have the same enemy types. Only Assassination has bosses. This thread is about bosses vs normal, the divergence between the non-boss modes is irrelevant. Non boss is greatly preferred via boss.

[PeripheralVisionary]

Yeah, 99% of time you're hunting for delta beacons and 1% killing Vay Hek himself.

[Ganpot]

Apparently so.

 

You are probably missing the fact that 84% of players prefer to play missions which only contain normal enemies.

Defense, survival, spy etc all have the same enemy types. Only Assassination has bosses. This thread is about bosses vs normal, the divergence between the non-boss modes is irrelevant. Non boss is greatly preferred via boss.

 

Even if Assassination isn't everyone's favorite game mode, it is still massively popular.  You do have a valid point that working on overhauling and adding new standard enemies would be better in the long term, since it would make the game better as a whole.  However, adding a single new boss is a way to add more difficulty in the short term (which DE is probably hoping will tide people over until the new regular units start coming out).  Additionally, a brutal new boss would actually be less controversial than a hard regular unit, because facing a boss is usually a choice, whereas regular units spawn randomly (within certain parameters). 

 

I still think players will repeat boss content frequently if it is well-made and challenging.  Some of the most memorable and fun content in games have come from bosses as opposed to normal enemies.  Orstein and Smough from Dark Souls 1, Alma from Ninja Gaiden 1, and Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid 1 are all probably one of the first things that come to mind when people think about those respective games. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

im just going to start following and upvoting anything notionphil does

 

becuz the forums need more of this voice around

 

and IMHO DE needs to listen

[WhisperByte]

pull a Lephantis on us.

The funny thing is... Lephantis (J2000 Golem) was supposed to be a J3 Golem rework

[IfritKajiTora]

I just want to game be hard to me again T.T
I saw my friend playing on new warframe account all is difficulty and all enemies for me its one shot kill because I have fully moded weapons that kills everything in ONE SHOT! because of too many buffs mods give. +165% dmg, +90% fire, +90%cold, +90%posion, + 90% electric, + multishot  FTW!!!! this is Damage multiplier x25 dmg what is when weapon unmoded o_O ARE YOU CRAZY DEVS!?
NO WONDER WHY ENEMIES ARE KILLED BY ONE SHOT! :/ it should be nerfed! as hell
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/242400-warframe-more-tactical-for-old-players-high-ranked-and-pvp-playable-v20/

Edited June 7, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[AscendantWyvern]

i dont mind multistage bosses per se.

 

I DESPISE the key grinding to get to them though...

[Paradoxbomb]

The funny thing is... Lephantis (J2000 Golem) was supposed to be a J3 Golem rework

 

Yeah, I remember that. That certainly rubbed salt in the wound.

[Innocent_Flower]

I think the best thing for bosses would be to make more guys like Vor, Only better. 

 

 

Think regular enemies with advanced powers and maybe movements. 

 

 

Long jump/telleport/ sprint/ jetpack. No humanoid boss should be without a mobility tool. 

 

Then give them a couple of powers

 

and a model that's different from the regular bipedal rank-file soldiers

 

 

 

That's all that's needed. One use setpieces and big, unique multi- stage models are just an inefficient use of time. 

[RealPandemonium]

Apparently so.

 

You are probably missing the fact that 84% of players prefer to play missions which only contain normal enemies.

Defense, survival, spy etc all have the same enemy types. Only Assassination has bosses. This thread is about bosses vs normal, the divergence between the non-boss modes is irrelevant. Non boss is greatly preferred via boss.

I view bosses as more of an objective than an enemy type.  People definitely enjoy Assassination missions for a reason.

 

Furthemore, we also need to consider the rewards that motivate people to play certain missions over others.

 

Survival is popular because:

- Killing masses of enemies nonstop is fun to many

- Farming formas and prime parts in the void

- Farming resources, particularly things like Plastids for newer players

- Infinite content "endgame"

- You get large amounts of EXP on top of all this

 

Assassinations are popular because people need Orokin Cells, Neural Sensors, and (hopefully again soon) Neurodes.

 

Defense is popular due to easy EXP farming (Xini, ODD, Dark Sectors) and also farming for Void keys.

 

Exterminates and Captures are popular because they can be completed quickly for a potentially substantial reward.

 

Invasions are also overtly played for their particular rewards (not trying to downplay their distinct flavor from regular Exterminates; they are fun in their own way as well.)

 

 

I don't think this graph really says anything about whether people actually like boss design in general, besides to indicate slightly that people prefer fighting bosses somewhat over other game modes. 

 

Perhaps challenge level is a factor, given that bosses have the potential to be more nuanced and involved than normal gameplay if you aren't over-equipped and that Survival and Defense become more challenging the longer you stay in the mission (this is also the only way to be challenged in the long run when over-equipped.)

 

Overall, though, I would wager that the reward granted by each mission type by and large determines its popularity overall.  "Important" mission types will be more popular and people will end up enjoying them more as they are acclimated to them over many runs. 

Edited June 7, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[notionphil]

I view bosses as more of an objective than an enemy type. People definitely enjoy Assassination missions for a reason.

Furthemore, we also need to consider the rewards that motivate people to play certain missions over others.

Survival is popular because:

- Killing masses of enemies nonstop is fun to many

- Farming formas and prime parts in the void

- Farming resources, particularly things like Plastids for newer players

- Infinite content "endgame"

- You get large amounts of EXP on top of all this

Assassinations are popular because people need Orokin Cells, Neural Sensors, and (hopefully again soon) Neurodes.

Defense is popular due to easy EXP farming (Xini, ODD, Dark Sectors) and also farming for Void keys.

Exterminates and Captures are popular because they can be completed quickly for a potentially substantial reward.

Invasions are also overtly played for their particular rewards (not trying to downplay their distinct flavor from regular Exterminates; they are fun in their own way as well.)

I don't think this graph really says anything about whether people actually like boss design in general, besides to indicate slightly that people prefer fighting bosses somewhat over other game modes.

Perhaps challenge level is a factor, given that bosses have the potential to be more nuanced and involved than normal gameplay if you aren't over-equipped and that Survival and Defense become more challenging the longer you stay in the mission (this is also the only way to be challenged in the long run when over-equipped.)

Overall, though, I would wager that the reward granted by each mission type by and large determines its popularity overall. "Important" mission types will be more popular and people will end up enjoying them more as they are acclimated to them over many runs.

If you look at the OP, you'll see that I suggest exactly that, making rewards better on boss missions and making them more accessible to run.

My point is not that people don't like boss design.

It is that a relatively small portion of the avg players WF experience is spent playing against bosses, so please make sure you (DE) is spending resources commensurately on that portion. Either increase the value of boss runs or decrease the proportionate resource used vs non boss play.

Edited June 7, 2014 by notionphil