Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[Ailith]

Take every +1 that I have because your whole post was 100% on-point. Now for this to get swept under the rug and watch as nothing changes...

 

Oh, and those poison/DoT enemies may actually force me to quit this game. Slash procs are bad enough for my caster frames, I don't need 8 f***ing Toxin stacks too (and I refuse to play Tankframe).

[SockBadger]

It is crazy that the majority of players dont get far beyond one warframe and a few weapons.  The player retention is really worrying, that should be their number one focus.  Retaining players and the new player experience.  Not creating more content to gate behind the rng grind.  

 

I agree, but with the addendum that so should endgame/continuous content, because otherwise you start to bleed away the hardcore of players looking for the next thing. They did on at least one stream a few back say that they had gone back to starting the game and seen it's problems but we didn't really hear more on the subject after that. Probably in the face of existing players on the forums clamouring to know about the next new thing.

 

But on a positive the start of the quest system with your new personal ship in a coming soon update should give the new player a bit more of a sense of purpose and reason to play than exists currently.

[XxSonicTheEdgeLordxX]

Agree with you 100%, DiabolusUrsus. I've never really had a way with words else I'd have written a tread similar, but I'm just glad to know that there are still people out there who want the best for this game. Then again, I've stopped watching the livestreams ages ago.

 

Props to you mate, and good to see that this thread is alive and productive, rather than descending into usual replies of "who cares" and "it's a beta".

[Caernarvon]

That was a good read. Good points all round.

[Chupacabra]

Great post, very disillusioned, especially after today.

[ReiganCross]

WOW!... That is some impressive and pretty massive Wall of Text!... Here's hoping it is well written or at least entertaining...

 

(I'm editing this as i'm reading it.)

 

Allright, first off. different is most times indeed interesting. The point you're missing is that if something is interesting it doesn't mean it's automatically good. A Car Crash is interesting (tell that to the dudes that drive slow to see it) but it doesn't mean it's a good thing for anyone involved. (But your point mostly holds at that, so no argument to be had there.)

 

You're pretty much right about the Prosecutors.... Right now there is nothing else to be had there aside from the fact that "it came around Melee 2.0, therefore it is like that." They claim they design with the future in mind, but right now all Loki Prime pictures feature him with a Bo Prime for the sake of short-lived Product Placement instead of having Loki featuring a weapon that is actually interesting to him (I'd suggest either Dakra or Fang Prime.)

 

And i'll argue that Prossecutor doesn't even make for good enemies by Melee 2.0 standards.... It's a boring Melee enemy that still dies for pure raw damage, so why should i bother with the elemental weaknesses anyway?

 

Oh, and notionpills's post also talked about group behavior, like the enemy taking into account his surrounding units in order to make a choice. They missed that point too.

 

Yup, the whole being shot by hitscan things is pretty annoying. And you know what's worse? The fact that you actually can just make all of this just blink off your armor if you have enough Shield or Armor is kind of your only line of defense... Eventually you'll want to retreat to get some Shield Regen back on but you'll be dead by a million bug bites like the enemy is a bunch of bees (Bees, my god.) I don't feel like i'm dying because i stumbled in front of a heavy gun that could open a hole in my chest big enough for me to put my fist trough it... I feel like i died because they wouldn't stop respawning and therefore there is always someone poping a spitball into my shield...

 

I always felt like they are developing bosses like they should develop Minibosses. Like, it would be great to stumble on something like Sargas Ruk as i'm going for a defense (as long as the dude can't 1-shot the pod)... Vor would also make for an excelent miniboss... Lech Kril as well... I always felt like most of them were great minibosses... Only Lephantis and Vay Hek truly feel like boss battles.

 

Oh, and i'm going to have to disagree with the mod thing. Yeah, i understand enabling multiple solution, but a single thing cannot be the answer to them all. Something must result in a fail, like killing an enemy in Sniper distance when you only carry shotgun or melee things with you. And that encourages Loadout variety, since "being prepared for all situations" usually is kind of a good idea, and if you go only with your sword kill something that sits atop an unreachable cliff, then i expect you not to be able to kill said thing (Go pure Melee with Lephantis and see how long that takes you. Hell, try it with Vay Hek...)

This is actually why i ALWAYS gear my items towards Void runs regardless of what i'm running (Also why i don't use Bane, Expel or anything that only dmgs one faction.)

 

I'm also going to point out that your problem with bosses and previous problems with the Prosecutor can be pretty much dealt with when you say the words "Mod 2.0"... Seriously look at that system and tell me that if it were a little better it wouldn't make at least those 2 problems go away. A Card game as a modifying system for weapon customization with a single best answer for all weapon is pretty much calculation, no meaningful choices are made aside from elemental choices, and this is a Damage 2.0 feature that Mod 2.0 pretty much doesn't care about. (Not to mention the whole system is abstract as hell to wrap your head around.)

 

Oh, and just a quick correction... From Software knows of it's "Exploits" about the things that can die in cheap ways. They are not made by accident, it's just that From Software would rather follow the rules then to put some kind of invisible walls or make him unbeatable unless you engage him or some other kind of contrived non-sense, so they compromise and allow the exploit to be there in favor of making the game more cinematic. In fact, this premise is what allows them to make their game so hard, because they never deviate from the rules they have set out then you always know what the challenge is and can come up with ways to defeat them that is completely outside of the realm they seem to have planned. But yeah, From Software knows what they're doing when they allow exploits like those, they do it because they're hardcore (and now you can hear in your head them calling you a sissy for using the exploits that they allowed in XD.)

 

"We're not playing Dungeons and Dragons here." Yup, and the same thing can be said about the notion of "Critical Hit" in a game where you can tell with surgical precision where the hell your hit landed. A "Critical Hit" on the tippy-toe of my enemy is just really, really dumb and a non-crit in the eye of a Corpus is equaly as dumb. The whole "Critical Hit" deal is just completely perplexing and a remnant of a Board Game era of gaming. Seriously, Critical Hit shouldn't be as big a thing as they are right now, especially not when Precision Shooting is involved. (Oh, and they might want to thing about OTHER kind of hits instead of the goddamn Headshot... This isn't Counter-Strike anymore, goddamn it, make a Leg Shot mean something as well!)

 

Oh my god i can't believe i'm finally done reading that!... Well, those are my... 2 cents?... More like 2 dollars o.o'... Geez this post turned out big as well...

Edited June 12, 2014 by ReiganCross

[DreadScourge]

If I was not so tired at the moment I would bring up every point you presented and give my opinion (100% agreed) on each point.

 

I love when walls of text cover their bases so well that they literally could not have covered more, yet remain clear, concise, and interesting.

 

Warframe's player experience may lack critical content, but this post didn't, and for that you have my +1.

[grillv20]

I wish more people in the community would look at this thread and read what the OP had to say. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

*snip*

 

1. Agreed. Different introduces novelty, not necessarily quality. That is part of why I'm so concerned about the philosophy of defining each and every boss through some sort of "unique" damage mechanic (like Ruk's periodic weak spots.) It may be different, but it doesn't fit into the game very well. I agree with what you've said about both the Prosecutors and notionphil's ideas, but I wanted to avoid getting too sidetracked by what feels like an infinite number of relevant digressions. The post was getting wall-of-texty enough on its own. :P 

 

2. Agreed 100% on the irritating nature of hitscan bullet storms in what is not supposed to be a cover-based shooter. That's one of the things I like best about Melee 2.0: blocking. Slapping on a Quick Rest and Reflection drives my survivability higher than Redirection/Vitality/Vigor ever did, but maybe I'm an oddball case. 

 

3. Gonna gloss over the bosses, because I think we're mostly on the same page already and they've been discussed rather extensively already.

 

4. As far as mods go, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm getting at. I'm not saying that you should be able to snipe down distant enemies with shotguns, or that you should be able to hyper-specialize in the face of variable challenges; only that DE made a point of making it possible to hyper-specialize, and suggesting that there should be no insurmountable challenges associated with hyper-specializing (e.g. Melee-only, Rifle-only, etc.) without designing the game to be compatible with that. That's bad design. Have it one way or the other; it doesn't really matter which, but you can't mix and  match successfully. Either hyper-specialized loadouts should be potentially viable, or they shouldn't exist. 

 

Delving into the mods themselves, the problem is that mods are necessary for making weapons viable. An unmodded Ogris will carry you further than an unmodded MK-1 Braton, but even the Ogris will grow useless fairly quickly without the right mods. Serration, Hornet Strike, and the Elementals are the "essential" mods that spring immediately to mind, but the problem is that DE is considering (or at least, they said they were considering) mod loadouts as a factor in a player's ability to defeat a boss. This in and of itself is not a problem, except that a player's access to loadouts is entirely dependent upon RNG, and is therefore completely unreliable. Thus, bad design. Ideally, weapons would gain the stats needed to be viable on their own, and mods would provide auxiliary functions and customizations. The idea here is that you don't need to *avoid* certain mods because you find them less useful. Because let's be honest: what's the point of useless content? *cough cough* Rifle Aptitude *cough cough* 

 

5. Didn't realize that exploit was fully intentional, good to know. Their philosophy makes sense, though. 

 

6. Agreed 100% on crits. Crit weapons are fine, but they should have viable damage output dependent upon the user's ability to hit vital spots. Again, one of those little digressions that got set aside as a consequence of economy. We either want RNG in combat or we don't, and I am decisively on the "don't want" side of things. 

 

PS: Thanks for taking the time to shell out a whole two dollars, instead of two cents! I appreciate it. 

Edited June 12, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[SockBadger]

~-/snippety/-~

 

2. Agreed 100% on the irritating nature of hitscan bullet storms in what is not supposed to be a cover-based shooter. That's one of the things I like best about Melee 2.0: blocking. Slapping on a Quick Rest and Reflection drives my survivability higher than Redirection/Vitality/Vigor ever did, but maybe I'm an oddball case. 

 

~-\snip\-~

 

You aren't alone there, though I still bring redirection and vitality. I have found that stamina mods and reflection can really kick survivability up a notch when facing ranged enemies. Not to mention the stamina component gives your arm a lot more swishing death to offer the Infested.

[DalaiLlama]

It seems that the majority of the forum-dwelling populace is up in arms against this new update, at least the people who bother to make the threads about it.  DE is proven to have been made known of community opinion as they have been seen browsing and replying to threads in the same subtopics as threads like these protesting the Update.  Yet, no response is to be had yet.

[Mak_Gohae]

It seems that the majority of the forum-dwelling populace is up in arms against this new update, at least the people who bother to make the threads about it.  DE is proven to have been made known of community opinion as they have been seen browsing and replying to threads in the same subtopics as threads like these protesting the Update.  Yet, no response is to be had yet.

 

Because by now they know this is a silly cycle.

People complaining about RNG yet again. Like the game will miraculously drop RNG without a word.

In a couple of weeks they lower the RNG of the rare items and everything will come down.

 

I actually understand why threads get deleted.

We all know the game, so let's stop running around the track doing the same thing.

Just wait a couple of weeks and it'll all be fine.

[DalaiLlama]

Because by now they know this is a silly cycle.

People complaining about RNG yet again. Like the game will miraculously drop RNG without a word.

In a couple of weeks they lower the RNG of the rare items and everything will come down.

 

I actually understand why threads get deleted.

We all know the game, so let's stop running around the track doing the same thing.

Just wait a couple of weeks and it'll all be fine.

 

What is still not fine after a great many weeks are issues like powercreep overtaking of old weapons, but even general mediocrity of new weapons like the Attica.  The new player experience, mod locking, etc. etc. etc.

 

The points covered by the community has significance in the long run, which will compound onto the longstanding issues that already plague the game.  Again, DE has been made well known to these problems; if they are not, then a serious drop of faith will soon follow.  Again, DE has a penchant for worsening problems, and then leaving the damage be.  "Fine" remains to be seen.

[Innocent_Flower]

It won't be "fine in a few weeks". 2,5% status chance mods aren't fine. Clantech weapons aren't week and that's fine.  

[Davoodoo]

Dont argue with mak really. This guy will just ignore all arguments.

[Innocent_Flower]

You need to understand that we're not making it sound worse than it is. it IS worse than it is. 

 

Now every time I post a suggestion or complaint, Usualy some uninformed dolt comes in and tells me that I have no rights to complain about the game's development because I am just a commoner with no knowledge of how a game is worked. Bull. I've worked with crude things like source and i've worked with easy things like bethesda's gamebryo. I don't know how to code and I so far haven't bothered to learn models and animations but it's usualy pretty easy to make things of significance without that knowledge. 

 

 

Now, Unless DE uses tools that are so crudely aweful that they need eight giant arms to operate, they realy should have fixed a lot of problems shortly after they were conceived into warframe; RNG rates and what drops where, mod balancing,  weapon balancing, the speed/health/weapon/model of an enemy (both in tweaking and adding). That stuff should be easy. If you gave me a week, the first day or two to learn DE's tools, the fifth would be "i've done this much, release the hounds!" on the sixth i'd draw a lot of simple concepts for further addition or maybe just write some bogun lore for fun.  then  on the seventh day I would be just watching the forum, eating chips and smiling to myself as thank you posts pop up and fuel my ego alongside the angry conservative rants which may or may not. 

 

Now I don't mean that in an arrogant way; I bet there's a ton of people on the forums who could edit such a game without the skill to code. There's hopefuly a lot of people in DE who're the same. Thing is; S#&$ don't get fixed. Is that because of DE's hierachy/structure. Maybe they need to run every little change they want to make through with their superiors. Or maybe It's DE themselves. 

 

 

TL;DR: I'm perfectly aware of what's an easy change and what isn't. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Rajko]

You need to understand that we're not making it sound worse than it is. it IS worse than it is. 

 

Now every time I post a suggestion or complaint, Usualy some uninformed dolt comes in and tells me that I have no rights to complain about the game's development because I am just a commoner with no knowledge of how a game is worked. Bull. I've worked with crude things like source and i've worked with easy things like bethesda's gamebryo. I don't know how to code and I so far haven't bothered to learn models and animations but it's usualy pretty easy to make things of significance without that knowledge. 

 

 

Now, Unless DE uses tools that are so crudely aweful that they need eight giant arms to operate, they realy should have fixed a lot of problems shortly after they were conceived into warframe; RNG rates and what drops where, mod balancing,  weapon balancing, the speed/health/weapon/model of an enemy (both in tweaking and adding). That stuff should be easy. If you gave me a week, the first day or two to learn DE's tools, the fifth would be "i've done this much, release the hounds!" on the sixth i'd draw a lot of simple concepts for further addition or maybe just write some bogun lore for fun.  then  on the seventh day I would be just watching the forum, eating chips and smiling to myself as thank you posts pop up and fuel my ego alongside the angry conservative rants which may or may not. 

 

Now I don't mean that in an arrogant way; I bet there's a ton of people on the forums who could edit such a game without the skill to code. There's hopefuly a lot of people in DE who're the same. Thing is; S#&$ don't get fixed. Is that because of DE's hierachy/structure. Maybe they need to run every little change they want to make through with their superiors. Or maybe It's DE themselves. 

 

TL;DR: I'm perfectly aware of what's an easy change and what isn't. 

 

I think the reason balance isn't given serious constant consideration is that from a design standpoint, everything is in flux and it's easier to fix it later on, in stages, than continually in small increments.

 

This is purely my opinion based on my own observation, but DE's design method seems to be very focused on getting content out the door, with an initial balancing done close to initial implementation.  Big comprehensive balancing only seems to occur in these massive overhaul 2.0 type approaches.

 

As a player, I tend to see it as relatively unstable, with fantastic concepts and art and a dissappointing lack of polish and depth-of-features.  I don't know the shape of Warframe to come, so I look at what I've got right now, and if that lato can't finish off a level 5 grineer in a single clip, it's going to have an impact on my desire to play.

 

In theory I agree that balancing is just a task, you roll up your sleeves and you go do it and it's done.  For the player experience, 'balance issues' are one of the biggest walls to really engaging with the gameplay that exists and actually works well. 

 

In practice though, looking at the way content is delivered for Warframe, I can't imagine balance actually being done continually.  It would need a very empowered, dedicated squad of staff to drive a continual balancing effort with the weekly new content additions alone, and it would also need a coherent concept of what balance in warframe even means.   I think that DE's content pipeline is oriented towards delivering content first and foremost, and as a result it would require compromises in content delivery to focus on balancing.  Sort of a "Good idea, get it out there, make it fun, tweak it all later.", which is nice in closed beta, but now large balance issues affect players who may not be fully on board with massive, persistent imbalances.

 

I also think it would be fair to say that it's a totally valid approach.  Their passion project took off massively, and it's been a rush to retool to meet the huge demand ever since.  As far as that goes I think DE has done pretty well.  My only complaint is wishing that they would have a more open discourse about things like player agency with enemy AI design (as covered very well already) as they go forward with these massive expansions that Warframe is getting.  

 

'Beta - Don't panic' in large, friendly green letters on the login page would go a long way, honestly.  With the game going to consoles and having so many players, it is easy for expectations to grow as a player.

 

TL/DR It's not lack of talent or staff, it's an effect of design phase and focus.  Every dev team is different, and this one is focused on creating new content and overhauling out of place/placeholder content as quickly as possible.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Rajko

[Nagisawa]

QTE in co-op fast-paced games, you are fine with?

 

Never ever ever ever be a game designer. Even when well-implemented, it is flow-breaking.

Thing is THERE IS QTE in Warframe.  What do you thing the Hacking mingame is?  But you are also DEAD TO RIGHTS, it IS flow breaking,.

[notionphil]

I think the reason balance isn't given serious consideration is that from a design standpoint, everything is in flux.  

 

This is purely my opinion based on my own observation, but DE's design method seems to be very focused on getting content out the door, with an initial balancing done close to initial implementation.  Big comprehensive balancing only seems to occur in these massive overhaul 2.0 type approaches.

 

---

 

In practice though, I look at the way content is delivered for Warframe, and I can't imagine balance being done on the fly continually.  It would need a very empowered, dedicated squad of staff to drive a continual balancing effort with the weekly new content additions alone, and it would also need a coherent concept of what balance in warframe even means.  

 

This is really well thought out, and I believe DE views balancing exactly as you've suggested.

 

However, their view is incredibly damaging to the game as a whole, especially to veteran players. A single balance issue can trivialize the entire content of the game (old trin), or remove progression entirely for hundreds of thousands of players (boltor p @rank 2).

 

To DE, these are just numbers and stats that 'obviously need tweaking' and will be adjusted when they get around to the appropriate 2.0. However, DE does not realize that these numbers and stats define the gameworld and color every interaction.

 

Like I outlined in the Balance 2.0 - The Cost Of Power document, DE just needs to set their own baselines for balance. Once those are set, it makes incremental balance much easier. And they need to utilize the resources (read: us) at their disposal.

 

The community here has a number of balance aficionados who could probably put together weekly balance proposals, and align WF's content better than DE could, simply bc the numbers and stats aren't data to us - they are a hobby.

Edited June 13, 2014 by notionphil

[Rajko]

This is really well thought out, and I believe DE views balancing exactly as you've suggested.

 

However, their view is incredibly damaging to the game as a whole, especially to veteran players. A single balance issue can trivialize the entire content of the game (old trin), or remove progression entirely for hundreds of thousands of players (boltor p @rank 2).

 

To DE, these are just numbers and stats that 'obviously need tweaking' and will be adjusted when they get around to the appropriate 2.0. However, DE does not realize that these numbers and stats define the gameworld and color every interaction.

 

Like I outlined in the Balance 2.0 - The Cost Of Power document, DE just needs to set their own baselines for balance. Once those are set, it makes incremental balance much easier. And they need to utilize the resources (read: us) at their disposal.

 

The community here has a number of balance aficionados who could probably put together weekly balance proposals, and align WF's content better than DE could, simply bc the numbers and stats aren't data to us - they are a hobby.

 

I completely agree.  Design ideals don't matter if players don't enjoy the interim and don't (or can't) see the future of Warframe the way that DE can.

 

As players, the content we get in updates needs to conform to an overall balance of some kind, even if that overall balancing standard is subject to change periodically.

 

Edit:  Whatever standard is used also ought to be easy to understand and known to all.  

Edited June 13, 2014 by Rajko

[notionphil]

As players, the content we get in updates needs to be conform to an overall balance of some kind, even if that overall balancing standard is subject to change periodically.

 

This, this, this, this.

 

It's ok if the goalposts change from time to time...but right now, there are no goalposts.

 

This chaos is reflected on the forums when a balance conversation occurs  - because there is no standard, no direction. Is the Soma OP? Well, DE didnt seem to think so, but then they nerfed its crit rate...then they introduced the Boltor Prime with more DPS at a lower mastery rank.

 

*head scratch*

 

Ok then.

 

To DE, it's a work in progress with a few numbers that need tweaking. To the players, it's devalued content, pointless new releases etc, lack of reasons to play and engage with the game.

Edited June 13, 2014 by notionphil

[DiabolusUrsus]

I would really appreciate it if DE would take a firmer stance on balance rather than treat it as rabble-rousing appeasement. This is one of the reasons why I'm really really not looking forward to the upcoming PVP section of the Dark Sectors. Unmodded weapons or no, one-shot-kills are going to be all over the place, and it'll be weeks before any significant changes are made if DE's patching history gives us any indication. 

 

On the bright side, having their own faces blown off may make players more inclined to acknowledge something as overpowered, since integrating PVP into Dark Sectors will hopefully mean that more players will play them. At the same time, I'm afraid that this will translate into PVP-specific balance changes (it almost has to,) which are unlikely to benefit the rest of the game. 

 

What makes me upset is that the one thought running through my mind when I heard "Dark Sectors will have PVP" was "So you're taking the easy way out. Dark Sectors didn't turn into the 'end-game' you thought it would, so you're leaving it to your players to introduce their own personal engagement and fresh gameplay. Even in spite of the fact that your forums have multiple threads with painstakingly detailed and carefully considered suggestions. 

 

What DE needs to realize is that they're not going to be able to make most changes without rousing at least one part of the community into vocal agitation. Some of us want to prioritize balance. Others think it is a waste of time. Even within the group of people who want balance, there are different and conflicting opinions. Trimming a lawn by clipping the tallest blades of grass doesn't work when you keep cutting the grass shorter than the rest of the lawn. Some drastic changes need to be made that will have the majority of the community rather agitated... but now is the time to do it. Now, when the game is in beta, rather than in a full release. 

 

As writers, we are advised to avoid editing our papers until we complete the final draft, because we otherwise waste time correcting sentences that may or may not exist when we finish. That makes sense. However, DE isn't writing a term paper or analytical essay. Writers get to keep their work private until they finish. Readers only ever see the final draft. Warframe's players see each and every change, introduction, tweak, and correction that is made along the way. They are witnesses to the editing process. They can see what has been said, has not been said, and what needs to be said. They are there to witness every politically incorrect misstep. I can guarantee you that a writer whose audience was witness to their work from the beginning to the end of the writing process would be editing every step of the way. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[azmyth1]

Maybe the solution is just to force players to equip at least one ranged weapon.  Maybe that's a cop-out, but as the game is now, there are many things you simply can't deal with without one.  Most bosses, Corpus cameras and turrets, Grineer arc traps on the ceiling, Disruptor doors, Ospreys, the list goes on and on.

 

I, for one, think bosses have improved dramatically.  Laphantis is very fun, as is Vay Hek, and the Hyena pack.  Vor, Alad V, and the Jackal could be with some tweaks to their scaling.  Alad V was very fun when he first game out, but now he's just too easy.  Lech Krill needs some serious mobility increases, but add in a teleport + slam attack, remove the invulnerability phases, and presto, he's challenging again.  I agree with Notionphil - this game doesn't need a total rework, but it does need a heaping pile of small tweaks.

Edited June 13, 2014 by azmyth1

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

You know guys what's amazes me the most? The fact that DE rarely responds to actual "hot" topics i remember that year ago DE were much more active than these days i will take it as a sign where this game is going.

Maybe i'm wrong maybe not only time will tell.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Maybe the solution is just to force players to equip at least one ranged weapon.  Maybe that's a cop-out, but as the game is now, there are many things you simply can't deal with without one.  Most bosses, Corpus cameras and turrets, Grineer arc traps on the ceiling, Disruptor doors, Ospreys, the list goes on and on.

 

I, for one, think bosses have improved dramatically.  Laphantis is very fun, as is Vay Hek, and the Hyena pack.  Vor, Alad V, and the Jackal could be with some tweaks to their scaling.  Alad V was very fun when he first game out, but now he's just too easy.  Lech Krill needs some serious mobility increases, but add in a teleport + slam attack, remove the invulnerability phases, and presto, he's challenging again.  I agree with Notionphil - this game doesn't need a total rework, but it does need a heaping pile of small tweaks.

 

That's a solution that I'm actually okay with... but I want DE to recant on "The Sword Alone" if they do that. Having melee interact better with a more free-flowing parkour system would also be a solution, and simply adding melee hitboxes to some things would be a start. 

 

I am going to have to disagree with you on the "dramatic improvement" of bosses, for several reasons. 

 

1. Our only real defenses are our shields and health, excepting a few Warframes like Rhino and Frost who have defensive abilities. 

 

2. Most of the bosses (re-worked or not) are challenging not because of their large health pools, but because of their ability to one-shot players with attacks. (Jackal's grenades, Raptor's Missiles, Vay Hek's Orbital Strikes, etc.) 

 

3. The re-worked bosses that are legitimately entertaining (Lephantis, Vay Hek) are oftentimes locked behind unnecessary grind/craft/lobby walls simply to slow down players who are attempting to farm the newest Warframe. I understand that's necessary to encourage people to buy the Warframe, but there are better ways of doing that. 

 

4. The bosses are all (aside from visual presentation) more or less the same. Let's look at the Lephantis and Vay Hek fights, as two of the relative "best." Three stages of shooting at erratically moving weak points that cycle through invulnerability phases (Lephantis' mouths, Vay Hek's face) followed by a hyper-mode stage riddled with environmental hazards (Ambient poison clouds and Infested, Vay Hek's support drones). The only real difference between the two is that Vay Hek doesn't retain an invulnerability phase in hyper-mode. His entire model is subject to damage, whereas the player still needs to shoot at weak points on Lephantis. 

 

5. Of the re-worked bosses, it is only practical to fight one in melee: Captain Vor. The Hyenas and Alad V do take melee damage, but it isn't practical to fight them using it. The Hyenas will wreck the player's face very quickly, and Zanuka's missiles and other attacks are very difficult to avoid at melee ranges.

 

I do like the Hyena re-work though; they're one of my favorites in the game. That said... from what I hear the new

Void Vor

is invulnerable to melee. If melee is supposed to be an integral part of gameplay, why are all the new bosses completely immune to it? I mean, what the heck, DE? Maybe it's just me, but I don't find bursting Sargas Ruk's weak points down with a rifle any more fun than I did simply bursting the old Sargas Ruk down with a rifle. At least I could smack him with my Pangolin Sword and have it do something. 

 

As it is now, DE's boss battle 'upgrades' are almost purely visual. They make the fights pretty, perhaps boost the boss's damage, and then add invulnerability phases to slow players down long enough that they can appreciate the changes. That's less "playing a game" and more "watching an interactive movie." I know I keep bringing it up a lot, but even Dark Souls never strayed into creating bosses with non-telegraphed instant-kill attacks.