I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[Seanjuju]

If best single target weapon which can still be modded into aoe without sacrificing more than 10% of single target dps while also having decent status chance and reasonable ammo efficiency while still being easy to use(like being hard to use would be drawback enough to justify double power of its counterparts) is only mid-level weapon then hey.

Theres no problem giving it 400% dmg buff with 100% status to make it more in line with endgame.

 

If its average in endgame then its already in line with other endgame weapons.

 

 

Also you missed a point, i wasnt talking about boltor, i was talking about firearms in general, they render melee, powers and even summons obsolete.

Boltor is only biggest offender here.

This is beyond the scope. A discussion about boltor prime has no effect on this.

 

 

Any sort of rarity change would exacerbate the market's already troublesome issue with Boltor Prime parts. The problem is the weapon's stats itself. Shouldn't have to move a mountain to the man when we can move a man to the mountain.

 

I propose giving Boltor Prime falloff and projectile arc, (affected by gravity)

The desire to keep powerful mastery exempt weapons out of the hands of those with insufficient progression highlights a need for trading reform.

[Azawarau]

The Boltor Prime is a powerful weapon but its not alone at the top.

 

Bows and Phage are also good weapons.

 

If DE buffed other weapons based on the Boltor Prime then there will be a very large Power Creep that DE wants to avoid in the first place.

 

Though Older weapons/heavy melee weapons based on damage 1.0 do need a buff, just a slight buff.

They function differently

 

A bow wont kill nearly as much as an automatic weapon but is more ammo efficient and takes out alrger targets

 

THIS ISNT ABOUT  BOLTOR VS OTHER WEAPON TYPES

 

THIS IS STRICTLY BOLTOR VS OTHER AUTO RIFLES

 

See semshols post, just above yours, and you'll get your answer.

 

Your numbers are extreme, that would mean tier 3 would be like throwing rocks at the enemy. Your assumption is outlandish, DE is smart enough to realize the ramifications if the tiers were that separated, and you can refer to my earlier post on modding and players and other variables and the blur between tiers to get a better understanding. Boltor Prime isn't 500 damage, there's barely a gun in this game that'll do 100 damage, and even then those would be considered tier 3 easily. You're not accounting for the fact that we can mod, and make things powerful, and Boltor Prime isn't 500 damage.

My numbers are just an example

 

A smaller distance thats still too far out would mean the same thing. Youre missing the point of what i wrote and focusing on a small unimportant detail as a reason why my entire post is wrong

 

If youre going to play dumb i wont waste my time

Edited October 14, 2014 by Azawarau

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I still don't buy that "not accurate enough for endgame" line

 

1- there is no endgame, just a mode where you're eventually going to lose no matter what you do.

 

2- The point when this supposed inaccuracy is an issue? You were never meant to get that far in the first place. BP pisses all over level 30 enemies with only a half helping of mods, which is what DE themselves said they are balancing around.

[MechaTails]

I think it's time my guns stop rendering all other weapons obsolete!

 

*flexes sinewy lady muscles*

Edited October 15, 2014 by DarkTails

[AlphaHorseman]

They function differently

 

A bow wont kill nearly as much as an automatic weapon but is more ammo efficient and takes out alrger targets

 

THIS ISNT ABOUT  BOLTOR VS OTHER WEAPON TYPES

 

THIS IS STRICTLY BOLTOR VS OTHER AUTO RIFLES

 

My numbers are just an example

 

A smaller distance thats still too far out would mean the same thing. Youre missing the point of what i wrote and focusing on a small unimportant detail as a reason why my entire post is wrong

 

If youre going to play dumb i wont waste my time

I'm not playing dumb. I'm stating that there isn't a need to hurt other players for building up a good weapon to be great. Oh sure, nerf a gun people find fun just because other people think it should be weaker. Why not just buff up the other Auto Rifles to be able to work like that? Soma does that fine, so why not make the Braton Prime and others boosted as well? Make the Top Tier feel Top Tier, not just somewhat above mid-tier weaponry. That's the point of tiers.

 

Your post was about how the Boltor outclasses others in the same category, or that's how I'm trying to interpret it. Our enemies are weak no matter which way you look at it, that's the point of the Tenno, we're supposed to be powerful, we beat the bloody Sentients and murdered the Orokin for pity's sake. The Grineer and the Corpus are STILL trying to get up to Orokin levels of tech, even after thousands of years. That's why the prime weapons are so good. And you want to nerf someone's good weapon for the sake of making others feel more appealing? Why?! They enjoy the gun, let them enjoy the gun! If people using weaponry in the same category feel like their weapons aren't up to par, then BOOST those weapons to be up to par!

 

Again, and I'm going to have to explain this again, half of the problem is the enemies themselves. They're all bullet sponges. We need a diversity of enemy mechanics other than just point it at them and shoot and then they die. Better fighting mechanics like invulnerability except for certain points, smarter AI, better cohesion between units, and not just bullet sponges would significantly help the situation out.

Edited October 15, 2014 by AlphaHorseman

[taiiat]

-snip-

or, do the smart thing. trim down Weapons that are miles ahead of everything else, and also increase the usefulness of Weapons that are considered below the pack.

 

both is the answer.

[Azawarau]

I'm not playing dumb. I'm stating that there isn't a need to hurt other players for building up a good weapon to be great. Oh sure, nerf a gun people find fun just because other people think it should be weaker. Why not just buff up the other Auto Rifles to be able to work like that? Soma does that fine, so why not make the Braton Prime and others boosted as well? Make the Top Tier feel Top Tier, not just somewhat above mid-tier weaponry. That's the point of tiers.

 

Your post was about how the Boltor outclasses others in the same category, or that's how I'm trying to interpret it. Our enemies are weak no matter which way you look at it, that's the point of the Tenno, we're supposed to be powerful, we beat the bloody Sentients and murdered the Orokin for pity's sake. The Grineer and the Corpus are STILL trying to get up to Orokin levels of tech, even after thousands of years. That's why the prime weapons are so good. And you want to nerf someone's good weapon for the sake of making others feel more appealing? Why?! They enjoy the gun, let them enjoy the gun! If people using weaponry in the same category feel like their weapons aren't up to par, then BOOST those weapons to be up to par!

 

Again, and I'm going to have to explain this again, half of the problem is the enemies themselves. They're all bullet sponges. We need a diversity of enemy mechanics other than just point it at them and shoot and then they die. Better fighting mechanics like invulnerability except for certain points, smarter AI, better cohesion between units, and not just bullet sponges would significantly help the situation out.

Its fun

 

Just because other people think it should be weaker

 

Just because

 

Youre literally trying to write off arguments provided with evidence and though wih the argument "youre doing it just because"

 

As if theres no reason to nerf it

 

Make the Top Tier feel Top Tier, not just somewhat above mid-tier weaponry

 

Top tier will always be top tier

 

The boltor prime can more than afford to lose some damage or utility and still be a top tier weapon

 

Our enemies are weak no matter which way you look at it

 

Then whats the issue with nerfing it?

 

Tenno, we're supposed to be powerful

 

This is a game

 

Played online

 

with millions of players

 

The players are usually the most powerful and warframe is no exception

 

Thats no reason to have an imbalance

 

Better fighting mechanics like invulnerability

 

Ha

 

HAhAhaHAHahaHahahaHa

 

No

 

Unless you can explain how invulnerability is better

[AlphaHorseman]

Its fun

 

Just because other people think it should be weaker

 

Just because

 

Youre literally trying to write off arguments provided with evidence and though wih the argument "youre doing it just because"

 

As if theres no reason to nerf it

 

Make the Top Tier feel Top Tier, not just somewhat above mid-tier weaponry

 

Top tier will always be top tier

 

The boltor prime can more than afford to lose some damage or utility and still be a top tier weapon

 

Our enemies are weak no matter which way you look at it

 

Then whats the issue with nerfing it?

 

Tenno, we're supposed to be powerful

 

This is a game

 

Played online

 

with millions of players

 

The players are usually the most powerful and warframe is no exception

 

Thats no reason to have an imbalance

 

Better fighting mechanics like invulnerability

 

Ha

 

HAhAhaHAHahaHahahaHa

 

No

 

Unless you can explain how invulnerability is better

There are also sizable data in these posts on why it isn't in need of a nerf. And yes, you're talking about nerfing it just because it's a good gun.

 

Boltor Prime is already Top-Tier, there doesn't have to be a nerf to it.

 

I'm against the nerf because I don't believe gimping other player's hard work is a way to make the game more "fun" in any sense.

 

There's an imbalance, I'll agree to that. But I wouldn't say the solution is to weaken a good gun, that's just an excuse to make it weaker and maybe this will make the other weapons shine through.

 

The invulnerability is an example, like Sargus Ruk or Lech Krill, the mechanics can be something else, something different, and better AI was an example. Enemies with actual heavy, solid shields that punch through can't exactly get to, or with enemies that use special abilities not unlike the Tenno, the eximus don't count, they only provide debuffs to enemies and buffs to allies. I'm talking about enemies that actually use unique weapons or mechanics, not mini bosses like the GE or Zanuka, but somewhat like the Hyena pack, enemies that have weaker versions of those would be such better fights than the usual point and shoot that we have now. I personally don't care for the Eximus because they don't really present a challenge, more of an annoyance, and they're pretty much reskins of enemies we already face.

[Rollerlane]

Yes.

[Azawarau]

There are also sizable data in these posts on why it isn't in need of a nerf. And yes, you're talking about nerfing it just because it's a good gun.

 

Boltor Prime is already Top-Tier, there doesn't have to be a nerf to it.

 

I'm against the nerf because I don't believe gimping other player's hard work is a way to make the game more "fun" in any sense.

 

There's an imbalance, I'll agree to that. But I wouldn't say the solution is to weaken a good gun, that's just an excuse to make it weaker and maybe this will make the other weapons shine through.

 

The invulnerability is an example, like Sargus Ruk or Lech Krill, the mechanics can be something else, something different, and better AI was an example. Enemies with actual heavy, solid shields that punch through can't exactly get to, or with enemies that use special abilities not unlike the Tenno, the eximus don't count, they only provide debuffs to enemies and buffs to allies. I'm talking about enemies that actually use unique weapons or mechanics, not mini bosses like the GE or Zanuka, but somewhat like the Hyena pack, enemies that have weaker versions of those would be such better fights than the usual point and shoot that we have now. I personally don't care for the Eximus because they don't really present a challenge, more of an annoyance, and they're pretty much reskins of enemies we already face.

Its not just because its a good gun

 

Theres nothing being gimped

 

This is the issue DE creates

 

They release something overpowered like blessing trinity and then when it gets the nerf it deserves people feel entitled as if they didnt see it coming or actually mean anything

 

B Prime is easy to get and is far too powerful for its worth and you all know it

 

Its another case of biased arguments hiding personal wants over whats fair for the players and best for the game

[LukeAura]

It doesn't have to stop obsoleting every weapon, it just needs competitors and realistically scaled content for it that isn't locked behind a grind for a key.  

[AlphaHorseman]

Its not just because its a good gun

 

Theres nothing being gimped

 

This is the issue DE creates

 

They release something overpowered like blessing trinity and then when it gets the nerf it deserves people feel entitled as if they didnt see it coming or actually mean anything

 

B Prime is easy to get and is far too powerful for its worth and you all know it

 

Its another case of biased arguments hiding personal wants over whats fair for the players and best for the game

You're hurting players who've invested forma and time into this weapon. And their efforts are well deserved. This is a gimp if I've ever seen one. But I'll give you the smallest benefit of the doubt you deserve, if a nerf was something you'd want to do, what, exactly, does your nerf entail?

 

And yes, it is a good gun. So why make it mediocre? It's like having a golden nugget in your hand and saying you'll trade it in for a silver nugget.

 

This isn't a nerf that's deserved, at least not in my eyes. The gun functions fine, I don't care for it because it's too vanilla, just point and shoot, and that's why I love my Paris Prime. I may not be a staunch supporter of it, but I know its a good gun, and justly so.

 

Do you realize how hard it is to get the blooming barrel and the bloody blueprint? With how the droptables are weighted and the annoyance of RNG, it's already well gated off as it is. To be fair, a weapon in the top tier shouldn't be available to an MR2 or even an MR6, but DE has made it like that because they don't want to exclude players from content.Yet, I do hope they up the MR requirements on good weapons like the Boltor Prime and the other Top Tier weaponry, as it is only fitting that these weapons require a certain amount of "mastery" in order to be used.

 

The gun is fair! Jeez Louis! How is not fair!? It shoots fine! You point and shoot! Simple! Easy! This isn't a personal want, its already in the bloody game! What's "fair for the players" and "best for the game" sounds like you're asking for a nerf of everything that's actually good for the sake of making things that look less good a bit better. 

 

But since you're such a good and absolute judge of "fairness", how, pray tell, do you think it should be nerfed? Please, feel free to bestow upon the rest of the universe your idea of a "fair" nerf for a gun that already functions fine.

[Quizel]

But since you're such a good and absolute judge of "fairness", how, pray tell, do you think it should be nerfed? Please, feel free to bestow upon the rest of the universe your idea of a "fair" nerf for a gun that already functions fine.

I think it's fine as well (mostly because I don't care to balance around lvl 30-40), but if something were to be done, I think they should remove the damage the flying bodies can do after a kill shot. Remove the dmg and maybe just make enemies hit by flying bodies merely get slowed for a moment. Or perhaps severely limit the flight distance which the body can deal dmg while also preventing a cascade like effect of one body flying into another body which can than fly into the next body.  It is my belief that it is this mechanic is what makes BP perform so well compared to other weapons in the 30-40 range. Ultimately, nerfing this mechanic a little bit will have less of an affect vs lvl 75+ enemies when things no longer get 1 shot by it so easily (absent of squad buffs). So the change basically helps balance 'lower level' content w/o breaking it for high level content.

 

The paper dps is fine. Soma, a non-prime and even non-clan tech weapon, is arguably significantly better on paper in various situations. It's hard to find quality comparisons because the only other prime auto rifle so far is the Braton, which is out classed by a vast number of weapons.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Quizel

[AlphaHorseman]

I think it's fine as well (mostly because I don't care to balance around lvl 30-40), but if something were to be done, I think they should remove the damage the flying bodies can do after a kill shot. Remove the dmg and maybe just make enemies hit by flying bodies merely get slowed for a moment. Or perhaps severely limit the flight distance which the body can deal dmg while also preventing a cascade like effect of one body flying into another body which can than fly into the next body.  It is my belief that it is this mechanic is what makes BP perform so well compared to other weapons in the 30-40 range. Ultimately, nerfing this mechanic a little bit will have less of an affect vs lvl 75+ enemies when things no longer get 1 shot (absent of squad buffs) by it so easily. So the change basically helps balance 'lower level' content w/o breaking it for high level content.

 

The paper dps is fine. Soma, a non-prime and even non-clan tech weapon, is arguably significantly better on paper in various situations. It's hard to find quality comparisons because the only other prime auto rifle so far is the Braton, which is out classed by a vast number of weapons.

Wow, I actually do like your solution. This is something I can agree to! It doesn't hurt the base mechanics of the weapon, but also makes the logic of the weapon itself sound. +1

[Azawarau]

You're hurting players who've invested forma and time into this weapon. And their efforts are well deserved. This is a gimp if I've ever seen one. But I'll give you the smallest benefit of the doubt you deserve, if a nerf was something you'd want to do, what, exactly, does your nerf entail?

 

And yes, it is a good gun. So why make it mediocre? It's like having a golden nugget in your hand and saying you'll trade it in for a silver nugget.

 

This isn't a nerf that's deserved, at least not in my eyes. The gun functions fine, I don't care for it because it's too vanilla, just point and shoot, and that's why I love my Paris Prime. I may not be a staunch supporter of it, but I know its a good gun, and justly so.

 

Do you realize how hard it is to get the blooming barrel and the bloody blueprint? With how the droptables are weighted and the annoyance of RNG, it's already well gated off as it is. To be fair, a weapon in the top tier shouldn't be available to an MR2 or even an MR6, but DE has made it like that because they don't want to exclude players from content.Yet, I do hope they up the MR requirements on good weapons like the Boltor Prime and the other Top Tier weaponry, as it is only fitting that these weapons require a certain amount of "mastery" in order to be used.

 

The gun is fair! Jeez Louis! How is not fair!? It shoots fine! You point and shoot! Simple! Easy! This isn't a personal want, its already in the bloody game! What's "fair for the players" and "best for the game" sounds like you're asking for a nerf of everything that's actually good for the sake of making things that look less good a bit better. 

 

But since you're such a good and absolute judge of "fairness", how, pray tell, do you think it should be nerfed? Please, feel free to bestow upon the rest of the universe your idea of a "fair" nerf for a gun that already functions fine.

And what about the trinity changes? Not changing a broken mechanic that should have been fixed ages ago because of "player efforts" isnt going to solve anything

 

Id suggest adding a larger spray, lowering the damage, or larger recoil

 

The paper dps is fine. Soma, a non-prime and even non-clan tech weapon, is arguably significantly better on paper in various situations. It's hard to find quality comparisons because the only other prime auto rifle so far is the Braton, which is out classed by a vast number of weapons.

Didnht we have this conversation already?

 

The paper DPS youre using is awfully unsuited to the soma

 

The way itd have to be used it may as well be a latron

[Quizel]

Didnht we have this conversation already?

 

The paper DPS youre using is awfully unsuited to the soma

 

The way itd have to be used it may as well be a latron

I agreed that using head shot paper dps as the sole comparison was poor for a number of reason, but emphasized that it was in the Soma's tool kit for vast potential. My intention of my first post in the thread was to shine a light on other weapons which had potential above BP by specifically challenging other players assertion that Soma's head shot paper dps was in fact below BP's. 

 

What's wrong with the paper dps I've posted the last couple times? You nor anyone else contested or criticized about the paper dps of Soma using Hcal for chest shot dps compared to BP. Which eventually lead to comparing chest shot potential of the weapons vs a specific enemy type like a corrupted heavy gunner. The results was that BP was only ahead by 8.4% for the builds shown (some limitations mentioned in full post), however, removing speed trigger from both weapons and forcing BP to take up yet another elemental mod actually shrinks the gap to 1.7% but nobody seems to care about such a figure/build that isn't maximizing the burst dps using speed trigger.

 

I even looked specifically at the ammo consumption required to take down a lvl 30 corrupted lancer and a lvl 40 corrupted heavy gunner. The corrupted lancers are 1 shot by both weapons (for the most part) and the performance vs the rest of the enemy types at worst boiled down to BP having as much as ~60% higher ammo efficiency. Since enemies at lvl 40 really didn't take too much ammo from either weapon to make kills the worse ammo efficiency of the Soma shouldn't be seen as detrimental in the 'endgame' discussion of a 20 min t4 run. Both weapons clear hallways just as quickly if it weren't for one fact...

 

Since BP could knock enemies back and kill additional mobs with the flying body, BP's killing potential far outweighed any paper dps Soma could produce vs lvl 30-40 mobs.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Quizel

[Vanadium]

-snip-

 

Time/forma? You talk about these things like they're precious when leveling weapons. Just stick it in your pocket and take it everywhere. We're not losing anything. Also, it starts with 2 polarities already, so the gun saves you time/forma right out of the foundry. Go rush some T2Cs for Forma, done.

 

As for nerf: takes its damage down to from 55 to 40. This gives it a 62.5% increase in damage over vanilla Boltor (still more than other "good primes"), as opposed to the ~120% increase over vanilla boltor. Why is this gap so huge?

 

Actually, there will be no trading involved. Just like how the OPness of the Acrid was cruelly (and deservedly) ripped from its abusers, the unnecessary beefiness of the BoltorP's damage is just going to be taken away. You won't get anything back, you'll just be left with something less. So, bad analogy.

 

Wait, you don't even use it?

Why are you even fighting against its nerf then? If you doesn't strongly affect you either way, then why do you care? We're not attacking some oppressed subculture, we want to see an OP gun nerfed, so that you don't have to go into a game with 3 other guys using BoltorP. I feel like calling you a troll right now, since I'm not sure why you feel strongly about this. It feels like you're arguing this point for the sake of arguing. Please don't be that guy.

 

20p. That's how hard it is to get the BP and Barrel. Or 25p or something. The barrel was actually the most common component when it was first released, so one of my barely-plays-the-game-now friends is sitting on a platinum mine right now. Jerk. Anyway, 20-25p is not hard to scrounge up.Just sell some vault run/nightmare dupes.

 

The gun is fair! Jeez Louis! How is not fair!? It shoots fine! You point and shoot! Simple! Easy! This isn't a personal want, its already in the bloody game! What's "fair for the players" and "best for the game" sounds like you're asking for a nerf of everything that's actually good for the sake of making things that look less good a bit better. 

 

This. This is the attitude that ruins Warframe. "What wrong with Trinity? You just press 4! Simple! Easy!" "What wrong with Sweeper? You don't even do anything! Simple! Easy!" Easy mode is exactly why these things got nerfed. It's why Iron Skin has finite health. It's why Vortex + Ignis got fixed. This list can go on for ages. With Boltor Prime, you point, shoot, and the way is cleared. Everything is over. It's boring. Sorry if this forces some players to play the game.

[Azawarau]

-Too much to read-

Youve always seemed more reasonable than others ive posted against but somehow usually on the opposite side

 

How about we meet somewhere in the middle

 

Buff one aspect of the B prime and nerf another

[Quizel]

Youve always seemed more reasonable than others ive posted against but somehow usually on the opposite side

 

How about we meet somewhere in the middle

 

Buff one aspect of the B prime and nerf another

A weapon that has no visible downside (aside from travel time) vs lvl 40 content is kind of hard to think of a balanced way to buff any particular aspect >.>. At the same time though, BP has nothing radically special which would allow it to perform exceptionally well deep into end-endgame which makes it hard to pinpoint proper nerfs.

 

side thought in spoiler

Now, I was going to say, how bout you specifically say how you'd nerf the numbers and I'll try and compensate so that it isn't vastly inferior at lvl 75. But I think the biggest issue of why we can't come to agreeance is that I believe part of the balance is made when observing what happens pushing  the limits while the OP and (I think) you want lvl 40 to be the limit. So first we need to agree what endgame is and I think that conversation would be even more circular than this thread. It'd just take up both of our time and I doubt either one of us can be convinced to stand on the other side of the fence.

 

I do believe now the knock back dmg of dead bodies has to be changed in some way as stated in post #388. It's a massive advantage when things get 1-2 shot that's goofy to balance around. Lowering base dmg really hinders how far it can last in endless missions. There needs to be at least one full auto able to last a while.  Lowering status chance, RoF, and as a last resort clip size I could see as more reasonable nerfs (but not entirely necessary). 5% proc 8 to 8.8 RoF 45 to 50 clipsize-doing so lowers burst dps by up to 20% and puts sustained dps at 14-17k awfully harsh nerf to paper stats that'd throw BP users into anarchy.

 

This. This is the attitude that ruins Warframe. "What wrong with Trinity? You just press 4! Simple! Easy!" "What wrong with Sweeper? You don't even do anything! Simple! Easy!" Easy mode is exactly why these things got nerfed. It's why Iron Skin has finite health. It's why Vortex + Ignis got fixed. This list can go on for ages. With Boltor Prime, you point, shoot, and the way is cleared. Everything is over. It's boring. Sorry if this forces some players to play the game.

A lot of the things listed trivialized the game to the point it was just silly. BP doesn't trivialize the game to the extent invulnerability did-not by a long shot. There's plenty of weapons with similar dps which have one downside or another that allows BP to keep the title of king for lvl 40 content. That tittle is removed further into endgame.

 

Also, I don't think comparing prime stats to non-prime version is a strong argument for primes being too strong. When I read stuff like that my response is, "Sounds to me perhaps the non-prime version should be buffed"-but that could somewhat ruin the mastery rankings and progression of weapons (more so than it already is broken). Thus, don't buff non-prime weapon just because prime weapon is so much higher nor nerf the prime weapon because the non-prime weapon is so much lower.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[AlphaHorseman]

Time/forma? You talk about these things like they're precious when leveling weapons. Just stick it in your pocket and take it everywhere. We're not losing anything. Also, it starts with 2 polarities already, so the gun saves you time/forma right out of the foundry. Go rush some T2Cs for Forma, done.

 

As for nerf: takes its damage down to from 55 to 40. This gives it a 62.5% increase in damage over vanilla Boltor (still more than other "good primes"), as opposed to the ~120% increase over vanilla boltor. Why is this gap so huge?

 

Actually, there will be no trading involved. Just like how the OPness of the Acrid was cruelly (and deservedly) ripped from its abusers, the unnecessary beefiness of the BoltorP's damage is just going to be taken away. You won't get anything back, you'll just be left with something less. So, bad analogy.

 

Wait, you don't even use it?

Why are you even fighting against its nerf then? If you doesn't strongly affect you either way, then why do you care? We're not attacking some oppressed subculture, we want to see an OP gun nerfed, so that you don't have to go into a game with 3 other guys using BoltorP. I feel like calling you a troll right now, since I'm not sure why you feel strongly about this. It feels like you're arguing this point for the sake of arguing. Please don't be that guy.

 

20p. That's how hard it is to get the BP and Barrel. Or 25p or something. The barrel was actually the most common component when it was first released, so one of my barely-plays-the-game-now friends is sitting on a platinum mine right now. Jerk. Anyway, 20-25p is not hard to scrounge up.Just sell some vault run/nightmare dupes.

 

 

This. This is the attitude that ruins Warframe. "What wrong with Trinity? You just press 4! Simple! Easy!" "What wrong with Sweeper? You don't even do anything! Simple! Easy!" Easy mode is exactly why these things got nerfed. It's why Iron Skin has finite health. It's why Vortex + Ignis got fixed. This list can go on for ages. With Boltor Prime, you point, shoot, and the way is cleared. Everything is over. It's boring. Sorry if this forces some players to play the game.

The gun is good. It functions fine, it does what it is supposed to do. Isn't that what we build our weapons towards? How to clear a room fast and move on to the next objective? And yes, this is detrimental to other players. Who wants to lug around a primary without actually wanting to use it? I understand that the game is primarily about grind, which I myself distastes because currently its the only thing we can do. People do actually spend time and forma on weapons that they actually like, that's why they do it. They put in all their hard work into it because they love the weapon, they enjoy the weapon. Taking that and gimping the weapon just for the fact that it's good sounds like people are doing it just to sap the fun and hard work out of being able to do those things.

 

People are playing the game! People have progressed to the point where they can have that! Being able to clear a room and stand toe to toe with enemies is a way to play the game! Being able to blast them apart with a weapon you worked so hard on is a way to play the game! That's the point! You feel powerful! You feel ninja! You feel like you're back in the Orokin Era days of fighting with your Boltor Prime (or Paris Prime in my case) and can dish out huge amounts of damage against an enemy like the Sentients! The Sentients nearly destroyed the Orokin, WE, with our powers and our weapons were able to fight them off! Weapons like the Paris Prime, the Dread, the Boltor Prime, the Soma, they're powerful weapons! And justifiably so!

 

Honestly, it's like you guys are nerfing this thing just because you're mad that a gun you like isn't as good or something. Why else nerf it unless you dislike it for one reason or another? I can't see how this is "game breaking" in any way. The gun functions fine as it is, it does its job and it does its job well. If that's now what guns are supposed to do, then what are they supposed to do? You're supposed to build your weapons how you see fit, to maximize your satisfaction out of it. If players find that they get satisfaction out of pinning their enemies to the walls with bolts, then so be it, let them enjoy it. They find satisfaction and fun out of it. They are ENJOYING the game. Isn't that what we're supposed to do? I honestly can't see how nerfing this thing helps the enjoyment of others.

 

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I get annoyed when people do that. I'm arguing because you guys are making it sound like the Boltor Prime is destroying the game or something because its a good gun like how it's supposed to be. Its a prime weapon, it's supposed to be great, the darn things helped us destroy the Sentient's for pity's sake. If they could nearly wipe out the Orokin, the people that created US, then I'd think we'd need weapons of high caliber in order to stand and fight those kinds of monsters. *spoilers* And should the Sentients ever return *spoilers*, you'll need weapons like that to fight them off again.

 

Some Prime weapons are fine, I get that others of the Prime weapon's don't feel up to par, but instead of whacking a weapon that is something that feels definitively like top tier, increase the ones that apparently can't compete. There we go, people are happy that their top tier guns are more top tier material, no one gets mad because their weapons get nerfed, and we can all enjoy beating the crap out of enemies in T4's without worry. Or when the Sentients return we can all kick their butts again.

 

The Primes are supposed to be good, great even, that's what they're for. Boltor Prime outclasses its counterpart, as it should. I'd rather have it where the prime weapons ALL outclass their non-prime counterparts, because that's exactly what they should do. Not just somewhat better. It's like Prime Frames, the only thing different about them before was a different look, now that they actually have innate buffs, it actually feels better and makes more sense to get them. But the issue of prime frames is another topic altogether.

 

Overall, the only reasonable nerf I've seen so far in this thread is the one about the ragdolling dead bodies not shoot them straight to the wall, rather, have it impact the bodies behind them, and if it kills them, then they're ragdolled too. The rest sound like all you guys want to do is hammer this thing into mediocrity so that everything else that's mediocre can be mediocre with the Boltor Prime too. Why?! Why not have it all be great weapons?! Why not have the most powerful weapons in the game ACTUALLY FEEL like the most powerful weapons in the game?! They're SUPPOSED to feel powerful! That's the point of them!

[AlphaHorseman]

A weapon that has no visible downside (aside from travel time) vs lvl 40 content is kind of hard to think of a balanced way to buff any particular aspect >.>. At the same time though, BP has nothing radically special which would allow it to perform exceptionally well deep into end-endgame which makes it hard to pinpoint proper nerfs.

 

side thought in spoiler

Now, I was going to say, how bout you specifically say how you'd nerf the numbers and I'll try and compensate so that it isn't vastly inferior at lvl 75. But I think the biggest issue of why we can't come to agreeance is that I believe part of the balance is made when observing what happens pushing  the limits while the OP and (I think) you want lvl 40 to be the limit. So first we need to agree what endgame is and I think that conversation would be even more circular than this thread. It'd just take up both of our time and I doubt either one of us can be convinced to stand on the other side of the fence.

 

I do believe now the knock back dmg of dead bodies has to be changed in some way as stated in post #388. It's a massive advantage when things get 1-2 shot that's goofy to balance around. Lowering base dmg really hinders how far it can last in endless missions. There needs to be at least one full auto able to last a while.  Lowering status chance, RoF, and as a last resort clip size I could see as more reasonable nerfs. 

 

 

A lot of the things listed trivialized the game to the point it was just silly. BP doesn't trivialize the game to the extent invulnerability did-not by a long shot. There's plenty of weapons with similar dps which have one downside or another that allows BP to keep the title of king for lvl 40 content. That tittle is removed further into endgame.

 

Also, I don't think comparing prime stats to non-prime version is a strong argument for primes being too strong. When I read stuff like that my response is, "Sounds to me perhaps the non-prime version should be buffed"-but that could somewhat ruin the mastery rankings and progression of weapons (more so than it already is broken). Thus, don't buff non-prime weapon just because prime weapon is so much higher nor nerf the prime weapon because the non-prime weapon is so much lower.

Oh gosh thank you! You get it!

[Ayamiss]

Just wait for soma prime and everyone will instantly forget your awfull bololtor prime :)

[Monolake]

I need to point out that it is not "cheap tactics", it is simply "tactics". You are confusing your idea of having fun at all cost at the expense of actually having missions feel like missions.

 

Any tactic that can be used by us against the bad guys should be tactics that need to make an appearance and be used against us. I'm not saying that DE should fill the level full of long range snipers, I'm saying that they such mechanics should exist in some form to stop us from camping the same 10 meter circle and keeping our finger on the trigger.

 

Then try to play pvp to get your own powers used against you and your opinion will change. Or imagine every enemy is like corrupted Vor or even Stalker that 1-shots you.

AI needs improvement, but thats a separate problem. We are grossly overpowered  for all the normal content, its boring to play until 40+ min in endless missions as you easily obliterate everything.

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Boltor p takes so few mods to be a beast, but soma on the other hand takes multiple formas and a bunch of maxed mods to reach beast level, plz dont compare, Boltor p is op and needs its status chance base crippled to 2.5% , job done balanced.

[Azawarau]

A weapon that has no visible downside (aside from travel time) vs lvl 40 content is kind of hard to think of a balanced way to buff any particular aspect >.>. At the same time though, BP has nothing radically special which would allow it to perform exceptionally well deep into end-endgame which makes it hard to pinpoint proper nerfs.

 

side thought in spoiler

Now, I was going to say, how bout you specifically say how you'd nerf the numbers and I'll try and compensate so that it isn't vastly inferior at lvl 75. But I think the biggest issue of why we can't come to agreeance is that I believe part of the balance is made when observing what happens pushing  the limits while the OP and (I think) you want lvl 40 to be the limit. So first we need to agree what endgame is and I think that conversation would be even more circular than this thread. It'd just take up both of our time and I doubt either one of us can be convinced to stand on the other side of the fence.

 

I do believe now the knock back dmg of dead bodies has to be changed in some way as stated in post #388. It's a massive advantage when things get 1-2 shot that's goofy to balance around. Lowering base dmg really hinders how far it can last in endless missions. There needs to be at least one full auto able to last a while.  Lowering status chance, RoF, and as a last resort clip size I could see as more reasonable nerfs (but not entirely necessary). 5% proc 8 to 8.8 RoF 45 to 50 clipsize-doing so lowers burst dps by up to 20% and puts sustained dps at 14-17k awfully harsh nerf to paper stats that'd throw BP users into anarchy.

 

A lot of the things listed trivialized the game to the point it was just silly. BP doesn't trivialize the game to the extent invulnerability did-not by a long shot. There's plenty of weapons with similar dps which have one downside or another that allows BP to keep the title of king for lvl 40 content. That tittle is removed further into endgame.

 

Also, I don't think comparing prime stats to non-prime version is a strong argument for primes being too strong. When I read stuff like that my response is, "Sounds to me perhaps the non-prime version should be buffed"-but that could somewhat ruin the mastery rankings and progression of weapons (more so than it already is broken). Thus, don't buff non-prime weapon just because prime weapon is so much higher nor nerf the prime weapon because the non-prime weapon is so much lower.

How about lower the damage and give it a nice bit of innate piercing