Dear De, All I Want For U15 Is Polish.

[CaptainJohnson]

-snip-

 

Okay, I should clarify that "numbers and figures" is my way of saying "economic things that are out of my comprehension." So the kind of stuff you're talking about would also fit under that, because it's taking an analytical approach to the situation using actual economic methodology. The rest of the thread, though, has less substansive evidence that is closer to conjecture than actual analysis, and is what I'm arguing against.

 

If there is better proof that what OP is suggesting would increase long-term revenues, then DE would be wise to take up the suggestion, regardless of whether or not I personally like to have new weapons and content in the weekly updates. I just don't see that the argument OP presents has the analytical rigor required.

[Renegade343]

Okay, I should clarify that "numbers and figures" is my way of saying "economic things that are out of my comprehension." So the kind of stuff you're talking about would also fit under that, because it's taking an analytical approach to the situation using actual economic methodology. The rest of the thread, though, has less substansive evidence that is closer to conjecture than actual analysis, and is what I'm arguing against.

For the record, these are business decision-making tools, not economic analytical tools. Try not to mix them up (because then we would have economists and businessmen breathing down our necks in anger).  

 

That is the reason why I pointed out these two tools (as they fit within the context of this thread), so that DE can use these to make a judgement on whether to go with this proposal (which I sincerely hope they would). 

[notionphil]

Who will DE listen to, a handful of disgruntled vets on the forums, or people who use numbers and figures to suggest what they should do? I think the choice is obvious.

 

Maybe you're right. Maybe this post is just the opinions of some lowly forum vets (who also happen to be customers).

 

Maybe DE should get a second opinion about what's working and what's not in WF. Like maybe the opinions nearly the entire videogame critic community, who obviously influence player's decisions on what to try or not. And happen to know....a little bit...about what attracts players and dollars to videogames.

 

 

 

metacritic link to reviews

 

gameplay too monotonous "tendency toward repetition and sluggish progress dampen this free-to-play brawler's appeal."

 

gameplay too monotonous "this repetition combines with the lack of enemy variety (each species has only a handful of different units) to make many Warframe missions feel very similar to one another."

 

gameplay too monotonous "difficult to shrug off the sense of futility underpinning the broader experience. This is a game about levelling up characters and equipment, but the ways in which this power can be demonstrated are disappointingly one-note"

gameplay too monotonous "Sadly, the core mechanics chugging away beneath the uninspiring exterior aren't up to much either. This is a glitchy, murky game with no nuance or depth.

 

gameplay too monotonous "It just needs more of everything: more good enemies, more polish,"

 

no story " but there's no narrative thrust or intrigue to speak of."

 

no story "The fictional universe is thinly sketched and the result is a game that could literally be any shooter from the last 10 years - only not quite as good."

 

no story "Utterly incomprehensible lore"

 

too much grind "Brutal gear grind"

 

too much grind "Warframe's interesting combat mechanics are too quickly overcome by the grind of repetition."

 

too much grind" The process in Warframe is frustrating ....even the simplest item feels like a grindy chore."

 

too much grind"simply throws us into a long series of very samey-feeling missions"

 

too much grind" repetitive missions that quickly feel like a grind, character progression that fails to inspire"

 

...there were many more, but just google Warframe review and you'll see that most have the same issues. Too much grind. Too repetitive. Not deep enough combat. Bad RNG. No story.

 

When all of the reviewers in an industry agree on a critique, it's not an opinion. It's an issue.

 

Not to mention that DE can focus on fixing old systems WHILE making new revenue...so this entire argument is a red herring.

Edited June 23, 2014 by notionphil

[ByJove]

As someone that spends most of my time leveling new frames and weapons I feel that this hase become something I have to suffer through rather than want to do.  Fair enough the people than have all the op gear need something to do, but please start to balance this game out for those of us that don't.  This would include the enemies as well.  Change the assassin system so that they don't screw up whatever I'm doing, move those pissing dogs of earth,  spread the corpus about better and rethink those new ospreys of instant death.

[CaptainJohnson]

-snip-

 

Sorry, but video game critics and reviews have been plagued with such trash that I just can't take their opinions seriously. Some of them bring up good points but the community as a whole is just such garbage. I can understand wanting to appeal to critics, but just because it's their job doesn't mean they're any good at it or that their opinions are any more valid. They do influence who plays what games, though, but even so...

 

...Half of those critiques would require more new content, not simple polishing. New enemies, new lore, etc.

 

In any case, I never said they shouldn't polish old content. I've explicitely stated that they should in almost every post I've made on this thread. I'm just saying that focusing 100% on polish and dropping new content/weapons/warframes is a bad investment on their part, and that arguments that hold that it would increase long-term revenue are backed only by conjecture.

[notionphil]

Sorry, but video game critics and reviews have been plagued with such trash that I just can't take their opinions seriously. Some of them bring up good points but the community as a whole is just such garbage. I can understand wanting to appeal to critics, but just because it's their job doesn't mean they're any good at it or that their opinions are any more valid. They do influence who plays what games, though, but even so...

 

...Half of those critiques would require more new content, not simple polishing. New enemies, new lore, etc.

 

In any case, I never said they shouldn't polish old content. I've explicitely stated that they should in almost every post I've made on this thread. I'm just saying that focusing 100% on polish and dropping new content/weapons/warframes is a bad investment on their part, and that arguments that hold that it would increase long-term revenue are backed only by conjecture.

 

Correct. You may not take their opinions seriously, but their opinions directly affect DE's revenue

 

Anyway, my point is not that DE should pander to videogame critics. Or vets. It's that when a growing chorus of people who give you money for using your products tell you that there is something wrong which makes them want to stop giving you money, you should prioritize fixing those things. Especially if the "cognocenti" in the industry concur.

 

Yes, the absolutist position you're arguing against is incorrect. DE should not totally stop creating new content.

 

However, a new prime access doesn't take much in the way of DE dev resources. DE shouldn't stop adding those, and a few melee/simple reinforcements too.

 

They just shouldn't make any new gameplay SYSTEMS (which don't directly generate revenue anyway) until they address the major 3 or 4 problems that the vocal playerbase and the reviewers concur on. Unless, said systems address those problems (EX: Proxy Wars)

Edited June 23, 2014 by notionphil

[Toaman1994]

I was going to argue against this heavily, but after thinking about it...a huge update that results in a much cleaner, smoother, more fun Warframe experience? Sign me the hell up.

[Psroij]

I really wonder anymore of DE actually LISTENS to the community. I'm sure they HEAR us, I'm sure they go through, and read a fair amount of the forums, but are they actually listening? Do they understand what people are saying? Do they get the concepts we're talking about? More and more I'm not so sure. Players have been asking DE to go back and balance weapons for a long, looooong time now. When was the last time they balanced a single, individual weapon? Not Damage 2.0, that was a broad sweep across the DAMAGE system. I mean when was the last time they went back to an individual weapon, and alter it in some way to change its effectiveness. Ignis maybe? Before that the AkMagnus, when they dropped the damage down a ton because it was considered stupidly OP. The Lato got nerfed, for some reason, but is that it? 3 weapons? How many other weapons have been changed?   I really can't remember any more than that.

 

signed it's almost depressing, listening to DE put their focus into so many things....that are not balance-focused, that are not polish on systems that CLEARLY need it.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[bolding added by me]

 

Every time DE says something like, "We are listening, and we hear you about reducing grind/RNG/Weapon imbalance/useless mods/etc," I always picture the scene from Simpsons "Cape Feare" season 5.

 

After several hours of trying to get Homer to respond to the name Homer Thompson one of the FBI agents says, "Now, when I say "Hello Mr. Thompson" and press down on your foot, you smile and nod."

 

Homer: "No problem."

 

FBI agent: "Hello, Mr. Thompson." (while all but stomping on Homer's foot)

 

Homer: (After staring at the agent for a few seconds, leans over to a different FBI agent) "I think he's talking to you."

 

Except in my head the community is the agent, and Homer is DE Steve, and we are saying, "We want less RNG and grind," while stomping on his foot, and after staring at us a couple seconds he leans over to another DE employee and whispers, "I think they want us to add more layers of RNG." Insert whichever issue that needs fixed in, but the response is always the same, DE either does not get it, or they are purposely lying to us and saying they are listening, when they are really ignoring us and completely unwilling to give an honest breakdown of where they are headed, what their plans are, etc, etc.

 

I personally would be happy if DE just spent some patches within an update working on the shoddy core mechanics that have been needing to be looked at since Warframe went into open beta (e.g. parkour, scaling issues, useless mods, poor AI, etc, etc), but we don't even get a "We are looking at X out standing issue, this is our current plan with X out standing issue, etc." What we do get is, "Hey, we are introducing ships! And pets!" with an unspoken subtext of, "And after we release those they will be poorly implemented, but we will have already moved on to some other half-baked new idea."

[Liminal]

All my yes.
In fact, I better not see any other good threads today because I am completely out of yes.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

  Perhaps, before U14 drops they can offer new, "Optimizer Pack." It can come with some simple cosmetic accessory, but is understood to be a kickstarter like investment, toward covering revenue for a pure polish update, around U15. That way DE can have one or two months to focus on all those burning issues without wording about regular revenue stream generated by constant newness. 

  This would be understood as just an injection or investment toward polishing the game, and isn't a new founders pack, the amount could be variable, but probably a minimum of $20.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Upvoted good sir.

 

The main argument against this would be less platinum sales, but addressing balance and overall polish--the most frequent issues I've seen raised here on the forums--would encourage a LOT of people to continue buying stuff.

And get more players in and keep them in. Players quitting because of the grind, for instance, are potential revenue lost.

[AveryJ]

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Loswaith]

People who continue to play this game because of the weekly additions will have a very high chance to leave this game if this proposal is executed (which constitutes quite a bit of the player base), thus it can be considered as a risk.

 

In business decision-making, all points of risk and reward must be considered before deciding what to do (e.g.: Using Lewin's Force Field Analysis to spot most of, if not all of, the risks [restraining forces] and the rewards [driving forces] and seeing which force is larger overall). 

 

Ever think why people would be leaving without the updates?

 

If updates are the only thing keeping waframe afloat thats not a good thing, it means the core gameplay is hugely lacking and not offering enough on its own to sustain people to simply enjoy it rather than rushing for the next bit of loot.   It likely means you have people leaving becuse the gameplay is what they want more than a shiny new toy.

 

Simple fact is a polish update may delay bringing in a new shiny toy for a single update to give us better gameplay for the rest of the games lifecycle.  Better gameplay makes the game more enjoyable so players wont care as much about not having a new shiny as they can just play the game and enjoy playing it.

 

At the end of the day good gameplay keeps people playing untill they are invested in the game (thus more likely to spend money on it continiously as people like to pay for quality), a new update keeps them playing for the few days untill they max it out, then go play something else and if they become more invested in that other game dont ever return.

[Renegade343]

Ever think why people would be leaving without the updates?

 

If updates are the only thing keeping waframe afloat thats not a good thing, it means the core gameplay is hugely lacking and not offering enough on its own to sustain people to simply enjoy it rather than rushing for the next bit of loot.   It likely means you have people leaving becuse the gameplay is what they want more than a shiny new toy.

 

Simple fact is a polish update may delay bringing in a new shiny toy for a single update to give us better gameplay for the rest of the games lifecycle.  Better gameplay makes the game more enjoyable so players wont care as much about not having a new shiny as they can just play the game and enjoy playing it.

 

At the end of the day good gameplay keeps people playing untill they are invested in the game (thus more likely to spend money on it continiously as people like to pay for quality), a new update keeps them playing for the few days untill they max it out, then go play something else and if they become more invested in that other game dont ever return.

Please read the context of that quote before replying. 

 

I am not opposing the proposal, I am just saying that we should consider most, if not all, of the risks and rewards this proposal will bring to the game and in extension, DE. 

[dashashou]

Please read the context of that quote before replying. 

 

I am not opposing the proposal, I am just saying that we should consider most, if not all, of the risks and rewards this proposal will bring to the game and in extension, DE. 

 

Infrastructure is always a good investment   

[Renegade343]

Infrastructure is always a good investment   

Not always. 

[CosyPigeon]

  Perhaps, before U14 drops they can offer new, "Optimizer Pack." It can come with some simple cosmetic accessory, but is understood to be a kickstarter like investment, toward covering revenue for a pure polish update, around U15. That way DE can have one or two months to focus on all those burning issues without wording about regular revenue stream generated by constant newness. 

  This would be understood as just an injection or investment toward polishing the game, and isn't a new founders pack, the amount could be variable, but probably a minimum of $20.

Would buy, Especially if polish was documented and delivered. 

[ZyloWolfzan]

Honestly the biggest problem right now is that, if things keep going as they are, DE will be releasing new content, sure, but they will be dealing with a steady loss of players, which means a steady loss of revenue from all the players getting tired of the endless grind for most things being nowhere near viable compared to a small selection of stupidly OP items. Players leaving because of base, core mechanics messed up, and unplayable. Players leaving because they're tired of new weapons being released, and want DE to go back and actually fix all the broken things in their game, that have been in their game for a long, LONG time. The issue right now is, will DE's loss of revenue from not making new weapons be equal to the revenue they would make by focusing on fixing all these issues? The truth is, we can't know, sadly. DE hasn't really told anyone how their revenue flow is, we don't even know if I'm right, maybe there AREN'T any people leaving due to the broken gameplay foundations that Warframe is built upon. However I can make some estimations, based on the countless threads in the forum complaining about those issues. I really think that DE needs to make a full update focused on polish, and while I would LIKE them to not release anything new during that time, to focus ONLY on the polish that needs to be done, it might not be feasible, which is fine. DE needs money to keep afloat, that's a fact, so if they need to release some new things they can, but the polishing update should remain the highest priority. If DE CAN make enough money without making new things, and focus entirely on polish? Then they should, I believe that without a doubt.

 

signed I fully believe that this game DRASTICALLY needs the polish if it wants to actually keep players interested, and playing the game.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[Twilight053]

This thread is golden. +1.

[Telapoopy]

Polish would more be a priority when the game transitions from open beta to full release. I do, however, feel that the upgrade system should be reworked before that point.

 

Also, a major update needs to have something new, or else players will lose interest, even if it does solve huge, ongoing issues.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Telapoopy

[ZyloWolfzan]

Polish would more be a priority when the game transitions from open beta to full release. I do, however, feel that the upgrade system should be reworked before that point.

 

Also, a major update needs to have something new, or else players will lose interest, even if it does solve huge, ongoing issues.

The problem with that is the fact that this game has been in Beta since 2012, when the Closed Beta was first released, and these issues REMAIN...well, issues. These things are all still problems that have been in the game for a long while, and they have not fully been addressed yet. That's problematic, especially since the game has been released on not one, but two major home consoles. A console release is a big deal, two console releases is quite major, and the game is still considered in 'beta' after all this work, and yet it's still lacking in such massive issues at the very core of the gameplay. That is a MAJOR problem.

 

DE needs to fix their game, that's what is supposed to be done in a Beta, to actually work on, and fix the broken parts of an incomplete game, with help from a community of players giving input. As it stands, DE has received tons, upon tons of input, but still hasn't fixed many core gameplay problems.

 

signed instead they keep adding more grind, and giving us fancy dogs.

Zylo the Wolfbane

Edited June 26, 2014 by ZyloWolfzan

[ZeroPhobic]

I would be happy to see the "major update" do nothing but this, however, I need my weekly fix with the weapon and cosmetic piece(s). If they wanted to focus wholly on the polish of the game and retune everything they can, I would love it! But, keep one small team making weekly love for us vets that need that weekly fix...

[OK9ZERA]

Equipment rebalance focusing on creating a sidegrade, almost TF2-esque state of meta? Full agreement.

[MultimediaCarl]

i Dont get the small ''hate'' towards this, or rather the discussion about losing players/revenue on DE's side of things.

This would help this game so bad, if they took like 2 weeks a month and only focused on looking at the older side of the game/bugs/etc/etc.

 

We can all argue about it

but the fact will always be that it is Highly needed.

 

I dont need new content every update/wednesday, there is already so much variety atm, all of it just needs to be looked at, be balanced.