Loki Invis... Just Stop Nerfing It Please

[BluSkittle]

hmmm? so your information is secondhand?

I could copy and paste what he said in the german forum (it's german though). 

[izzatuw]

it always did?

 

first of all no frame should force the player for a loadout, second of all now that melee with him is like 5% of the original damage it's not always that viable, and also it forces the player for a type of gameplay when it really shouldn't

 

in most games you can survive taking a few shots, with loki you can't, besides it doesn't make any sense that every enemy in the solar system can aim with 100% accuracy after hearing a gunshot...so don't try and tell me that makes sense

In some cases like I play with an assassin in Borderlands as soon as I go invis I go down instantly. And I've died plenty while using his invis. So meaning that your frame is fragile is a reason it should pass the nerf hammer? That's a pretty lame excuse.

[Shanicus]

Honestly, the Loki change is a buff more than anything - I can finally play survival missions without having to $&*^ around visibly so the enemies come out of their spawn rooms. 100% Invisibility uptime without any decrease in mob density! It's what I've always wanted!

But seriously, there hasn't been any nerf to invisibility. You just have to... you know, be smart with it. Don't go hugging enemies anymore. It does favour the longer weapons now over the shorter weapons (since with things like the Ankyros it considers you as 'touching' the mob), but there is no real downside to these changes. If being heard is a problem for you - pack a silenced weapon! Or, if you're like me, use the noise to draw enemies to you, pull back then slide into them with a Dragon Nikana for 4x damage!

-A Loki Player who just finished soloing a T4 Survival to 40 minutes.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Shanicus

[Cryp2Nite]

The melee damage part is correct, but misleading. It's true that Ashs Smoke Screen and Lokis Invisibility never

did more melee damage than regular attacks. Though these abilities allows the melee weapon to hit with the stealth

damage multiplier, which is 400%. (Same for Ash and Loki btw.) So it actually did more damage, but not more

melee damage mechanics wise.

[xlraistlx]

The melee damage part is correct, but misleading. It's true that Ashs Smoke Screen and Lokis Invisibility never

did more melee damage than regular attacks. Though these abilities allows the melee weapon to hit with the stealth

damage multiplier, which is 400%. (Same for Ash and Loki btw.) So it actually did more damage, but not more

melee damage mechanics wise.

This ^

[BluSkittle]

The melee damage part is correct, but misleading. It's true that Ashs Smoke Screen and Lokis Invisibility never

did more melee damage than regular attacks. Though these abilities allows the melee weapon to hit with the stealth

damage multiplier, which is 400%. (Same for Ash and Loki btw.) So it actually did more damage, but not more

melee damage mechanics wise.

+1 

[RSITH]

Loki is fine the way it is ... So chill

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

It does favour the longer weapons now over the shorter weapons (since with things like the Ankyros it considers you as 'touching' the mob)

 

This is the issue I take with it. The situations that remove the stealth modifier do not seem to jive well with the basic mechanics of the game. Enemies pinpoint your position a little too well, and the game is simply not set up for the sort of spacing you need to keep the damage multiplier. I totally agree about the ability to lure enemies though.

[yarash2110]

In some cases like I play with an assassin in Borderlands as soon as I go invis I go down instantly. And I've died plenty while using his invis. So meaning that your frame is fragile is a reason it should pass the nerf hammer? That's a pretty lame excuse.

ummm what? so you are saying that because he is fragile he should be nerfed? maybe "if my frame got a nerf then it would only be fair if yours will get one too!" just explain what you are trying to say, btw the ones i wrote were meant to be a joke because they are ridiculous 

[yarash2110]

Honestly, the Loki change is a buff more than anything - I can finally play survival missions without having to $&*^ around visibly so the enemies come out of their spawn rooms. 100% Invisibility uptime without any decrease in mob density! It's what I've always wanted!

But seriously, there hasn't been any nerf to invisibility. You just have to... you know, be smart with it. Don't go hugging enemies anymore. It does favour the longer weapons now over the shorter weapons (since with things like the Ankyros it considers you as 'touching' the mob), but there is no real downside to these changes. If being heard is a problem for you - pack a silenced weapon! Or, if you're like me, use the noise to draw enemies to you, pull back then slide into them with a Dragon Nikana for 4x damage!

-A Loki Player who just finished soloing a T4 Survival to 40 minutes.

great for you but there are still not any buffs, so you are saying its good because you can get agro now?

 

the whole cause of invis is to not attract agro... 

[yarash2110]

Loki is fine the way it is ... So chill

loki was fine the way he was... so chill

[GSDAkatsuki]

Invisibility was not nerfed, it was just logical AI improvement. In fact it's pretty much perfect for solo survival since you don't need to use decoy to draw enemies to an area for you to kill now.

Improvement in AI overall though is always going to make some things more difficult and that's how a game should be. It's not fun fighting simple bots with limited functions.

[Le_petite_moHAMmad]

i don't mind the gunplay while invisible, but melee...oh god the melee, how am i supposed to not bump into enemies while using dual ichors??? it is tedious and boring. whatever, i guess i will forma the aura slot and use energy siphon instead of steel charge and only use smoke screen for reviving maties and escaping instead of using it for melee. don't get me wrong, i still like ash because of the bladestorm ability, that ult is so fun to use!

 

i don't want to craft valkyr to use melee weapons against high level void enemies, or craft another melee weapon that is longer than dual ichors because i really like the dual ichors and coptering, i also don't like being forced to use a long melee weapons :(

Edited July 3, 2014 by Le_petite_moHAMmad

[fatpig84]

Ogris is as silent as your Dread.

 

And while the nerf on dual ichors is a bummer (Just slap a reach mod, but hey I only really use it to copter with some damage) but the stealth bonus still works VERY well with cleaving whirlwind, nikana and pole arm stances too.

Edited July 4, 2014 by fatpig84

[yarash2110]

Invisibility was not nerfed, it was just logical AI improvement. In fact it's pretty much perfect for solo survival since you don't need to use decoy to draw enemies to an area for you to kill now.

Improvement in AI overall though is always going to make some things more difficult and that's how a game should be. It's not fun fighting simple bots with limited functions.

first of all they have 100% accuracy the moment they hear one shot and stop the moment you move away from where you were, it's not fun fighting bots that are acting like they are in a movie or something waiting for commands,

 

second of all, invis is supposed to make you invisible, you know what invisibility does? make enemies not see you, which means you do not attract aggro, so you are saying it's better now because it attracts agro?

[fatpig84]

first of all they have 100% accuracy the moment they hear one shot and stop the moment you move away from where you were, it's not fun fighting bots that are acting like they are in a movie or something waiting for commands,

 

second of all, invis is supposed to make you invisible, you know what invisibility does? make enemies not see you, which means you do not attract aggro, so you are saying it's better now because it attracts agro?

 

 

Put silencer mods on everything.

Yes your DPS goes down, but you are shooting statues again.

 

Or use the Dread / PP / Ogris etc.

[Basilisk1991]

They just stopped invisibility from functioning as more or less a period of nigh-invulnerability. If you're smart and still using cover when you're stealthed it's not that big a deal. You can still use invisibility to move around the battlefield in relative safety and to escape clutch situations. If I have one minor complaint about the change (And this is a nitpick) if I do hit someone with a silenced weapon they immediately know where I'm standing, not just my general direction relative to them. It's one thing to know "Oh hey there's a guy somewhere behind me throwing rocks at my head!" and another to go "there's a guy throwing rocks at my head from behind that crate over there behind me!". Edit 3: Upon doing more testing I realize that this initial comment got a lot of stuff wrong.

 

Edit 1: So I went and did some testing with non-silent non-continuous firearms and here's what I've found out (This was with the basic Grineer units specifically)

 

If I had not alerted the ranged units to my presence and began shooting at them whilst invisible they simply ran for cover, which is perfectly reasonable response to shots being fired from an unknown location. the cover they took was effective, they weren't just ducking behind crates at random, they always put the cover between me and them. So they clearly know what direction my shots were coming from but not where I was. They did not return fire until my stealth wore out and they could visually see me.

 

If the grinner were actively shooting at me when I activated invisibility they continued to fire at my previous location, I could move around freely and they were not able to track me if I didn't shoot at them. If I did shoot at them they would reposition to effective cover and waited for my cloak to run out to begin firing at my new position.

 

The only enemy type who's behavior was inconsistent with these patterns (that I tested for) was the melee units. They were no more capable from divining my location than ranged units but would advance on my previous location normally if they were alerted before I activated invisbility.

 

Edit 2: Having done more testing with melee and silent weaponry the AI reacts the same as mentioned above, melee kiills performed in plain view send enemies scrambling for cover as do kills with silent weapons, enemies will not however move to new cover if you flank them whilst cloaked unless you successfully hit them or kill their allies, missed shots/swings with silent/melee weapons do not alert them to your new position like normal shots do.

 

Edit 3: having done even MORE testing (with infested this time) they will continue to rush your position if you've alerted them when you use invisibility and if they touch you they will actually attack you. So given that Infested like to travel in packs and run towards you even if your invisible and they attack if you touch them while cloaked, they are still quite hard to deal with on your own as loki (unless you bring a good melee weapon).

Edited July 3, 2014 by Basilisk1991

[yarash2110]

They just stopped invisibility from functioning as more or less a period of nigh-invulnerability. If you're smart and still using cover when you're stealthed it's not that big a deal. You can still use invisibility to move around the battlefield in relative safety and to escape clutch situations. If I have one minor complaint about the change (And this is a nitpick) if I do hit someone with a silenced weapon they immediately know where I'm standing, not just my general direction relative to them. It's one thing to know "Oh hey there's a guy somewhere behind me throwing rocks at my head!" and another to go "there's a guy throwing rocks at my head from behind that crate over there behind me!".

once again, it's better cause it attracts agro? and thats what i was saying but everyone got their head so deep in the ground because they got someone to laugh at because "lol nub thats how sound works lol they can smell you"

[Basilisk1991]

once again, it's better cause it attracts agro? and thats what i was saying but everyone got their head so deep in the ground because they got someone to laugh at because "lol nub thats how sound works lol they can smell you"

Having done some more testing the AI (specifically with ranged enemies like the grineer) they really can't zero in your location while you're invisible, they still realistically seek cover when I shoot at them and will remain in cover until my stealth wears off to start shooting at me again. However I did notice melee enemies were a bit inconsistent in their reactions and since the infested are like 98% melee units I could see them still giving you trouble. I need to do some testing with them next. Edit did the testing, check my previous comment for my thoughts

 

Also at the risk of sounding condescending you really need to learn to articulate your points better. You'd have an easier time if you didn't word your arguments so poorly. You're basically straw-manning yourself right out of the gate.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Basilisk1991

[Soldats]

Anyone else tired of frames being buffed/nerfed around corrupted mods? That's the main thing that broke certain frames before and breaks others now.

[fatpig84]

Anyone else tired of frames being buffed/nerfed around corrupted mods? That's the main thing that broke certain frames before and breaks others now.

 

Invisibility was actually a crutch skill way before narrow minded was a problem. 

IIRC Essence helm back then gave 20% and with Streamline, you reduce all Energy cost by 50%.

 

Invisibility would cost 25 energy and you can remain Invisible for 19 seconds (or 18.96 if you are anal) with Continuity and Constitution. With old Energy siphon and you breaking the odd crate or enemy, you can go dark for pretty much forever during solo runs.

Edited July 4, 2014 by fatpig84

[Vanadium]

This change did nothing to effect me...because I use Orthos Prime with Reach almost exclusively:

 

 

And other staff weapons sometimes. Everything else is pretty inferior right now (which says something terrible about Melee 2.0; buff other weapons!).

[TwiceDead]

The game is brain dead easy. Adding some learning curve and people went nuts.

QFT

[Methanoid]

loki is my most used frame, i noticed the changes and i cant say i have any problem with the sound/noise feature, thats actually quite sensible and gives more meaning to silent weapons and mods.

 

the dmg thing im hoping is just a temp glitch rather than feature, that or due to "making sound" were simply losing the stealth bonus, which again is understandable.

[Gurrend]

Loki was my starter and before I got skana to 20 I wanted to use orthos and reach. I just have always preferred polearm weapons. I hadn't noticed how the AI change affected my melee style until after reading these posts. I can see how some people are upset about it and even then after melee 2.0 people stopped using Galetine as much.