Who Thought The Prosecutor Was A Good Idea?

[Novocrane]

We've already established that warframe essentially isn't an option unless you've already spec'd into an elemental frame.

Prosecutors spawn on Ceres. It's an end-of-line planetary system behind Neptune. Excluding Frost (Ceres), players can gain access to Ember (Saturn), Saryn (Sedna), and Volt (Clan Dojo) before they reach it.

 

 

Like I said in the OP, telling me to use a different Warframe to kill one type of enemy is absurd. It's literally a different playstyle. I don't own any elemental based Warframes and I don't intend to own any elemental based warframes because my playstyle complements Rhino's abilities.

 

Yeah, sentinal is a valid point I suppose but by the time the prosecutor shows up it is often dead by that point.

 

At this point you have to be aware it conflicts with the style DE is trying to get you to use. Tenno are intended to aim for weapon and frame mastery. You're welcome to your Rhino style, but try opening yourself up to developing new styles.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Novocrane

[tidus1112]

Nope. In fact, they're even more specific than that. They're only on maps that:

1. Are grineer controlled.

2. Are on ceres.

3. Use the shipyard tileset.

 

So it works out to something like 4 maps in the whole game feature them(which has been cited as a problem by Hek hunters).

 

It's quite far in the game, quite difficult to reach, and very limited in scope even where it shows up. So, it's not like, say, the lightbulb fiasco, where people on mercury were getting vaporized after playing for 10 minutes. This is something you've been playing for 50+ hours before you see, unless you make special taxi trips to get there. Even then, the taxi trips would demonstrate the problem.

 

So there's no excuse for not knowing they're there. The only thing I can imagine is an old player returning, not reading any updates, not playing with any other players, and randomly lucking out on picking one of the 4(out of 260+) maps where they exist. As noted, if you happen to be in this rare, exceedingly small group of people, you still learn about them and have the ability to leave the mission, fix your gear, and go back. So it's a bit of a non-issue.

The enemy type outright does not make sense. Yes, they can be beaten via completely stupid means (respec your...well, everything so that you can kill one enemy...), but I don't understand the need to completely sacrifice my playstyle because of some stupid artificial difficult increase.

[Chupacabra]

+1 OP, completely agree, I can understand adjusting your mods deal with an entire faction, but a single enemy that becomes laughable once you've modded correctly, but impossible if you don't blah. Awful direction imo.

 

Also to respond to your title, I believe Scott mentioned prosecutors as being a good example of mob diversity/difficulty a few Devstreams ago, a statement I and many others just don't see eye to eye with.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Chupacabra

[Llyssa]

 

I already addressed all of this. As for not knowing they existed yet, I just recently got back into the game after not playing for some time.

Forcing me to change my entire play style for one enemy is not acceptable. Ever. Especially in such a class-based game.

 

 

Not playing part of the game is also not acceptable.

"entire play style"? What are you on about? You only need to remove(or add) a single mod. All other things remain the same. Nothing else changes at all, whatsoever, and as you clearly stated you were playing with someone else, if you're really THAT unwilling to change, ask them.

 

Having a feature everyone else likes removed because you're stubborn is NOT an acceptable solution. You don't have to play THAT MAP, and if you DO play that map, you have to adapt to what it has.

 

Your whole rant sums up to "OMG I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE A SINGLE MOD ON ANYTHING I OWN, ACCOMMODATE ME!"

 

The obvious answer, the right answer, is "no".

[tidus1112]

"entire play style"? What are you on about? You only need to remove(or add) a single mod. All other things remain the same. Nothing else changes at all, whatsoever, and as you clearly stated you were playing with someone else, if you're really THAT unwilling to change, ask them.

 

Having a feature everyone else likes removed because you're stubborn is NOT an acceptable solution. You don't have to play THAT MAP, and if you DO play that map, you have to adapt to what it has.

 

Your whole rant sums up to "OMG I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE A SINGLE MOD ON ANYTHING I OWN, ACCOMMODATE ME!"

 

The obvious answer, the right answer, is "no".

To say that everyone else, all inclusive, likes this feature, is entirely naive and ignorant. Just take a quick look around the forums and you'll be proven wrong in a second. Hell, I'm one other person that dislikes this, disclaiming your point already.

 

What if I don't want a fire build? Then why should I be forced to replace some extremely useful mod on one of my weapons with some really awful fire mod solely for a single mob? The enemy type is nothing but a really poorly put together artificial difficulty increase made under the guise of "mob diversity."

 

I don't care about specific accomodations to my playstyle, but this new enemy type literally benefits nobody, and serves no purpose but to keep people away from Ceres as a result of a single frustratingly poorly implemented enemy type.

Edited July 8, 2014 by tidus1112

[Apophix100]

"entire play style"? What are you on about? You only need to remove(or add) a single mod. All other things remain the same. Nothing else changes at all, whatsoever, and as you clearly stated you were playing with someone else, if you're really THAT unwilling to change, ask them.

 

Having a feature everyone else likes removed because you're stubborn is NOT an acceptable solution. You don't have to play THAT MAP, and if you DO play that map, you have to adapt to what it has.

 

Your whole rant sums up to "OMG I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE A SINGLE MOD ON ANYTHING I OWN, ACCOMMODATE ME!"

 

The obvious answer, the right answer, is "no".

 

Most people in this thread agree with me, so I don't know where you're getting that "everyone else" likes this.

 

Changing warframes is changing your entire play style. Each warframe has it's own seperate role and playstyle.

 

You're not wrong in that changing one mod out isn't a completely different playstyle, but it IS a difference and it WILL make me weaker. If it was better to do things that way then I would be doing things that way already. Someone else here said that it is reasonable to change out mods for each faction, but to have to have 4 SEPERATE elemental damages for ONE enemy is $&*&*#(%&.

 

Not to mention, my sentinal is almost always dead like 4 seconds into the mission. I'm a tank class so I don't exactly avoid damage. And if you tell me to avoid damage, you're changing my play style. Which is what you just said you aren't doing.

 

I also never said to REMOVE it, I said to make it not completely braindead.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Apophix100

[Hustler-One]

Nope. In fact, they're even more specific than that. They're only on maps that:

1. Are grineer controlled.

2. Are on ceres.

3. Use the shipyard tileset.

 

So it works out to something like 4 maps in the whole game feature them(which has been cited as a problem by Hek hunters).

 

It's quite far in the game, quite difficult to reach, and very limited in scope even where it shows up. So, it's not like, say, the lightbulb fiasco, where people on mercury were getting vaporized after playing for 10 minutes. This is something you've been playing for 50+ hours before you see, unless you make special taxi trips to get there. Even then, the taxi trips would demonstrate the problem.

 

So there's no excuse for not knowing they're there. The only thing I can imagine is an old player returning, not reading any updates, not playing with any other players, and randomly lucking out on picking one of the 4(out of 260+) maps where they exist. As noted, if you happen to be in this rare, exceedingly small group of people, you still learn about them and have the ability to leave the mission, fix your gear, and go back. So it's a bit of a non-issue.

Alright, thanks for precision ! :D

[Hustler-One]

Not playing part of the game is also not acceptable.

You're right, sorry ! D:

[Liminal]

"entire play style"? What are you on about? You only need to remove(or add) a single mod. All other things remain the same. Nothing else changes at all, whatsoever

No.

I never install attack precepts on my Sentinels, I don't want them to draw aggro.

I rarely equip all three weapons. I often run missions with only one weapon.

I rarely equip damaging Warframe abilities.

 

It would definitely make me change my playstyle, which is a completely legitimate and valid one. All that for one single enemy.

Edited July 9, 2014 by The_Doc

[Damuranashi]

Can't you just use melee to kill them? I've been able to melee them with no elements and kill them just fine.

That doesn't work for me.

[Hexagoros]

This game is riddled with fake difficulty, it's something you're gonna have to deal with.

 

Until / if they ever implement actual enemy design rather than bullS#&$ stacked on bulletspongy instagib cannons, you're stuck with it.

 

 

Just look how many applicable gameplay flaws Warframe suffers from in this single list http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

 

 

Prosecutors = Character Select Forcing

 

"Where the game designs levels or enemies to only be beatable by a particular character or set of characters and doesn't require or at least hint at which characters you need to pick at the outset."

 

Fake difficulty and gimmick enemies.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Hexagoros

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

So I need to kill some Grineer to get a thing. So me and my buddy did a Grineer defense. No big deal. Started killing things. No problem. Then a 'Fire Prosecutor' showed up. Neither of us had pure fire damage because why would we so we literally could not advance. I would go and put fire on one of my weapons but then an electric one or one of the others would show up.

 

What you've effectively done here is said "hi people who want to play the game how you want to, eat S#&$, now you have to specifically build your S#&$ a very specific way just to deal with this one enemy that sometimes decides to show up." That's all fine and great for an actual boss fight that is actually warned about in advance, but basically the game just straight #*($%%@ us over when we're just trying to do a simple defense mission. Even worse if you're crazy enough to want to solo missions, well now the math literally does not work. 4 element types you need to bring in, 3 weapons to put them on. Come on now. (Yeah, I realize you can use an elemental warframe, but that's not even close to a good defense. I have to buy, build, rank up, and master an entire warframe just so I can do Grineer missions? That's not acceptable.)

 

I suggest you keep their elemental vulnerability, that's fine. But add some way of killing them if you didn't happen to get lucky and bring the correct elemental damage into the mission.

 

Because fire damage has a bonus against cloned flesh, i.e. all grineer.

 

Corrosive + Cold

Corrosive + Heat

Radiation + Cold

Radiation + Toxin

Viral + Electric

Viral + Heat

 

Here are combo elements that have big bonuses against the grineer along with nonconflicting single elements. This works, by the way. There's no need to go with only a single element on the weapon. The combo element will suffer the damage reduction, but the single element will still get through. One player can carry all the necessary elements on their own with a bit of work, two players can carry them easily, no warframe powers or sentinel attacks required. Those combos are close to what you would be using anyway if you're modding properly for grineer, so I just don't see the problem with bringing what you would have brought anyway, with a bare minimum of team coodination. Don't even bother with the "why should I communicate with my team in a co-op game?" excuse.

 

A slash damage melee weapon will still damage them. I've seen it mentioned that there is sometimes a bug that causes this not to work. If true, the bug should be fixed. Anyway: Slash damage, no elements required.

[Zeitzbach]

A couple of stages forcing me to change my build a little bit so I can't go 4 elements on a single gun? UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!

 

How exactly does it really change your "Entire playstyle"? You're still shooting and hitting stuffs and pressing 4. It only changes your mods.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[notlamprey]

Obligatory:

 

 

I really do hate them though, for reasons I've listed before.

 

They happen to have these invulnerabilities because DE said so. It's a game of tag in the schoolyard where one kid is tagged and yells "NUH-UH" until the whole game is ruined for everyone.

 

They're an obnoxious gear check. A certain amount of gear checking is necessary in Warframe, but most of it is acceptably elastic. Prosecutors are a hard check, and it sucks. You'd better have some combination of mods that let you carry every elemental damage type, or else you'll have to find a team to help shore up the gaps.

 

Let's not forget that carrying every elemental damage type will somewhat limit your combat effectiveness. Maybe not a whole lot, but certainly enough to make hunting and dealing with Prosecutors more of a chore than it needs to be.

 

They carry the Eximus Aura. That means their arbitrary "NUH-UH" extends to all enemies within a certain radius, compounding the "Gotcha!" factor.

 

If you happen to be looking for Hydroid, you get to experience the fury of the Patent Pending Prosecutor Luck Check! You get to kill dozens upon dozens of these jerkweeds in hopes of building up a supply of Key materials.

 

But wait - there's more! This Gamble Box has another two Gamble Boxes nestled snugly inside! First, Vay Hek might bug out when you go to fight him, somehow rendering the mission a waste of time. This doesn't happen often, but it's been known to. After that, you get the usual Blueprint raffle ticket. If you're lucky, all those beacons you scrabbled for will last you long enough to get all three Blueprints.

 

 

 

 

 

[Liminal]

A couple of stages forcing me to change my build a little bit so I can't go 4 elements on a single gun? UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!

 

How exactly does it really change your "Entire playstyle"? You're still shooting and hitting stuffs and pressing 4. It only changes your mods.

I don't like quoting myself, but:

I never install attack precepts on my Sentinels, I don't want them to draw aggro.

I rarely equip all three weapons. I often run missions with only one weapon.

I rarely equip damaging Warframe abilities.

 

It would definitely make me change my playstyle, which is a completely legitimate and valid one. All that for one single enemy.

[Zeitzbach]

Let's make a playstyle involving using Skana, Lato and MK-braton on an Excalibur who loves to super jump only and never radial blind.

 

Now every contents in this game ruins my playstyle because it is an INEFFECTIVE and BAD playstyle.

 

Although this game supports doing whatever you want, it shouldn't support everything. If this was a moba, you can say this kind of issue is the same as saying "I only play ADC so jungle top bot support or mid I will only pick Vayne. I do what I want."

 

People like me? The moment I see this, I immediately think.

 

"Time to get myself a frost prime (Cold) and equip a toxic weapon (effective against most grineer) and lightning secondary and heat sword."

 

Better to learn and adapt than to be spoiled and complain.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[Apophix100]

Because fire damage has a bonus against cloned flesh, i.e. all grineer.

 

Corrosive + Cold

Corrosive + Heat

Radiation + Cold

Radiation + Toxin

Viral + Electric

Viral + Heat

 

Here are combo elements that have big bonuses against the grineer along with nonconflicting single elements. This works, by the way. There's no need to go with only a single element on the weapon. The combo element will suffer the damage reduction, but the single element will still get through. One player can carry all the necessary elements on their own with a bit of work, two players can carry them easily, no warframe powers or sentinel attacks required. Those combos are close to what you would be using anyway if you're modding properly for grineer, so I just don't see the problem with bringing what you would have brought anyway, with a bare minimum of team coodination. Don't even bother with the "why should I communicate with my team in a co-op game?" excuse.

 

A slash damage melee weapon will still damage them. I've seen it mentioned that there is sometimes a bug that causes this not to work. If true, the bug should be fixed. Anyway: Slash damage, no elements required.

 

-snip, misunderstood what you were saying-

 

I don't generally bother switching out mod loadouts for different factions. My Soma has no elemental damage so it doesn't really matter. The Kunai do plenty of damage with magnetic damage that even with the debuff it doesn't matter plus I hardly ever use them. My sword is the same way.

 

Slash damage has never worked on the Prosecutors I have encountered. If it bugged every time, well, that's a problem in and of itself. Like I said, my Soma has 0 elemental damage applied to it and does primarily slash damage. No effect.

 

The bottom line of how I look at this enemy type is this:

 

At WORST it prevents players from completing the level, period.

 

At BEST it's a pointless pain in the @$$ which reduces your combat effectiveness on other enemies for no reason.

 

I see no benefit to this enemy type existing in its current state.

 

 

 

Also to reply to the team coordination thing:

 

I would LOVE for some reason to be presented which would make it extremely beneficial to actually communicate and work together as a team. I remember when I was pretty new and Tower missions came out, my buddy and I did a T3 exterminate way before we were supposed to. We had to manually lead individual enemies into the start room and take them down one at a time, like a mini boss fight on each enemy. But it was a lot of fun. I just don't want it to be this fake, artificial garbage that Prosecutors are.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Apophix100

[Apophix100]

Let's make a playstyle involving using Skana, Lato and MK-braton on an Excalibur who loves to super jump only and never radial blind.

 

Now every contents in this game ruins my playstyle because it is an INEFFECTIVE and BAD playstyle.

 

Although this game supports doing whatever you want, it shouldn't support everything. If this was a moba, you can say this kind of issue is the same as saying "I only play ADC so jungle top bot support or mid I will only pick Vayne. I do what I want."

 

People like me? The moment I see this, I immediately think.

 

"Time to get myself a frost prime (Cold) and equip a toxic weapon (effective against most grineer) and lightning secondary and heat sword."

 

Better to learn and adapt than to be spoiled and complain.

 

Except that's already a bad playstyle to begin with, which is already a problem, which is addressed in other major threads in this forum. The idea being that these enemies require a specific playstyle which is the only way to beat them. Other playstyles that are plenty valid in every other part of the game are suddenly 100% useless.

[Zeitzbach]

 

Except that's already a bad playstyle to begin with, which is already a problem, which is addressed in other major threads in this forum. The idea being that these enemies require a specific playstyle which is the only way to beat them. Other playstyles that are plenty valid in every other part of the game are suddenly 100% useless.

 

If an ineffective play style is effective, guess how effective will the most effective playstyle then?

 

This has nothing to do with fake difficulty. This is all about "strategizing' and "planning ahead". A game that lacks any strategizing and planning ahead is what you would call a "bad design". It's called "Brute forcing" which is BAD.

 

What you're saying here, is just sugar coating the word brute forcing.

 

If bruteforcing procesutors doesn't work for you then MAYBE, just MAYBE, avoid Exterminate or defense or survival then if you're not willing to change anything.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[Liminal]

Let's make a playstyle involving using Skana, Lato and MK-braton on an Excalibur who loves to super jump only and never radial blind.

100% undiluted hyperbole.

The playstyle I mentioned is perfectly viable in the rest of the game. Only this one enemy forces me to change.

[Zeitzbach]

100% undiluted hyperbole.

The playstyle I mentioned is perfectly viable in the rest of the game. Only this one enemy forces me to change.

 

Imagine if they start making it you have to clear a quick cipher in the room before a boss weakspot opens up for you to kill.

 

'Unacceptable. I could shoot everything else but here, I have to also clear a cipher. Different play style is not tolerated. I should be able to left click and kill everything".

 

Gotta love brute forcing. It makes the game so diverse.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[letir]

If an ineffective play style is effective, guess how effective will the most effective playstyle then?

 

This has nothing to do with fake difficulty. This is all about "strategizing' and "planning ahead". A game that lacks any strategizing and planning ahead is what you would call a "bad design". It's called "Brute forcing" which is BAD.

This has nothing with "strategizing" or "planning ahead". It's cheap decision and fake dificult.

 

"Slap all 4 elements in your loadout righ NAOWH!" - there is "planning"? Cannot see it at all.

[Liminal]

Imagine if they start making it you have to clear a quick cipher in the room before a boss weakspot opens up for you to kill.

 

'Unacceptable. I could shoot everything else but here, I have to also clear a cipher. Different play style is not tolerated. I should be able to left click and kill everything".

 

Gotta love brute forcing. It makes the game so diverse.

What does that have to do with anything? A puzzle doesn't force me to change my whole loadout.

[Zeitzbach]

This has nothing with "strategizing" or "planning ahead". It's cheap decision and fake dificult.

 

"Slap all 4 elements in your loadout righ NAOWH!" - there is "planning"? Cannot see it at all.

 

Changing your load out and deciding what to use is not planning? Wow. Just. Genius.

 

"Hey, let's run T4 with 4 Ash. Picking suitable frames is not planning."

 

What does that have to do with anything? A puzzle doesn't force me to change my whole loadout.

 

Neither does prosecutor because all I have to do is change the MODs. I still use the same gun.

 

And no, I won't cry either because my headshot crit isn't dealing 20k to a target with 700 hp.

 

Btw, Heavy gunner force me to change my main element to Corrosive. Corpus forces me to change to Magnetic. Same thing here. You can't kill those stuffs without headshot and proper element unless you want to burn through 200-300 of your ammo.

 

And don't tell me it's different because you like petty damage.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[letir]

Changing your load out and deciding what to use is not planning? Wow. Just. Genius.

 

"Hey, let's run T4 with 4 Ash. Picking suitable frames is not planning."

 

I don't need "suitable frame", just all elements.

 

"Yo, dawg, i hear you don't like out Damage 2.0 at all, so i give you Prosecutors"