Any One Noticed Any Thing Wrong With The Paris Prime?

[pyr8]

iv had a 4 forma max crit build for months i was getting 50k crits and all was ok,

i went away for a month or so and when i came back my bow wont even hit for 5k,

if any one can help that would be cool

 

ty pyr8

[Etsoree]

Base damage = 200

 

 

Judging by those numbers wouldn't the game calculate headshot, then critical? It's like it's quadrupling the damage if you get a headshot crit.

 

It doesn't add up right.

[Etsoree]

Base damage = 200

 

That, and my crit damage is 5.6, not 4.4.

[[DE]Momaw]

Judging by those numbers wouldn't the game calculate headshot, then critical? It's like it's quadrupling the damage if you get a headshot crit.

 

Critical head shots DO get another bonus beyond regular head or crit shots.   I might be wrong about the x4 being an additional multiplier instead of simply replacing the regular x2 for head and the game is down so I can't check.  But either way, if you are only getting 4K damage out of a Paris Prime then you are doing something wrong.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Momaw

[Gentlemoa]

@TE

Yes i noticed a difference. Since U14 i am dealing no damage at all. The same goes for the penta, good damage against infested but i rarely deal more than 5k to any other enemy. 

The Dread is now my strongest bow. I used to onehit all the heavy gunners etc in T3 surv, but now i need like 2-3 arrows until one of them dies. 

Something changed. Maybe because they removed the caps for armor and HP

[VoidianAgent]

lol @ people who still think dread is as deadly as paris prime.

 

You can take dread against the infested or to dessacrate more stuff but everybody knows everything you mod your weapons for is to kill heavy gunners, the single and only threat in the void (everything else dies from a single arrow of either bow anyway) so the ParisP is CLEARLY a superior weapon when it comes to damage.

 

PS: If you can get to 40m your issue isn't LS, it's enemies toughness so again ParisP is much more likely to take you to 1h runs than Dread.

Dread was a competitor (and winner) against the original Paris, not Paris Prime.

Edited July 30, 2014 by VoidianAgent

[pyr8]

ty to every one for there input. im just glad im not the only one that this has happened to..

[[DE]Momaw]

Judging by those numbers wouldn't the game calculate headshot, then critical? It's like it's quadrupling the damage if you get a headshot crit.

 

It doesn't add up right.

 

Bearing in mind that only damage from 1 arrow is shown if it only took 1 arrow to kill the target, and that the TOTAL theoretical damage is twice what is shown...   T3 Exterminate heavy gunner hunting gave me these results.

 

 

 

 

[TheGuyver]

inb4 nerfed for pvp

[Glasglow]

You don't know how the damage system works do you? Even with Corrosive Projection, the armor is still there so puncture still does more damage. Puncture does +50% damage to Ferrite armor and +25% to alloy. Slash does -25% to Ferrite and -50% to alloy. And, even if you do get their armor down to zero (which would require all four players to have Corrosive Projection), that doesn't change the weaknesses that the unit has, as the armor stat and the armor type are two different things. So even with 0 armor, you would still be doing -25% and -50% damage, to each armor type respectively, while the Paris player will being doing +50% and +25%, to each armor type respectively.

Personally i think there are too many grennier mobs in Void missions and not enough infested, but thats a story for another time.

[IIPREDATORII]

I don't own one, but One thing I find wrong with it is the damn sound it makes. So damn annoying

[Darzk]

You don't know how the damage system works do you? Even with Corrosive Projection, the armor is still there so puncture still does more damage. Puncture does +50% damage to Ferrite armor and +25% to alloy. Slash does -25% to Ferrite and -50% to alloy. And, even if you do get their armor down to zero (which would require all four players to have Corrosive Projection), that doesn't change the weaknesses that the unit has, as the armor stat and the armor type are two different things. So even with 0 armor, you would still be doing -25% and -50% damage, to each armor type respectively, while the Paris player will being doing +50% and +25%, to each armor type respectively.

 

If armor is reduced to zero through the use of 4x CP auras, or ~19 Corrosive procs, the health bar turns red, and armor specific modifiers no longer apply. When using 4x CP auras, The negative damage from slash against armor no longer applies, nor does puncture's bonus against armor. When using 4x CP auras, slash is clearly the better option.

 

It does bring up a point towards the OP - maybe you switched auras, and are no longer using CP? That would drop damage by 30-40% all on it's own, and by a lot more depending on whether teammates had it installed as well.

 

Edit: Should still be getting a lot more than 5k tho. Perhaps you swapped the elemental combo to something other than Corrosive and didn't notice?

Edited July 31, 2014 by Darzk

[Chroia]

iv had a 4 forma max crit build for months i was getting 50k crits and all was ok,

i went away for a month or so and when i came back my bow wont even hit for 5k,

if any one can help that would be cool

 

ty pyr8

Unless we're talking about different things:

It's a known bug introduced either with patch 14.0.11 or 14.1.0 I think, as per DERebecca's post in the first link.

 

It's not just you, it's not intended, and it will be fixed.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Chroia

[(PSN)JuanitoRainman]

Again, this post was about?...

 

I have paris p but it's not my type of weapon, however i experienced the same bug with ignis, it wouldn't do the same damage, after removing mods and place them back in a different order it worked o.O i'm not sure if it's the same issue, just sharing how it got fixed.

 

Thanks!

[Grimtongue]

crits have been very inconsistent for me with all of my primary weapons (the ones with crit builds).  I'm pretty sure it's related to the known bugs.

[Quizel]

lol @ people who still think dread is as deadly as paris prime.

 

Dread was a competitor (and winner) against the original Paris, not Paris Prime.

The slash proc from dread makes dread compete with Paris P in all situations, as it ignores armor completely.

 

Non-head shot and Head shot comparison is attached.

 

This spreadsheet calculates basically everything (haven't fully tested volt's sheild dmg boost-it's on my list)

I gave grineer 500 ferrite and 200 alloy base lvl 8 currently lvl 60 for simulation. Didn't put too much thought into weights yet for average calculation.

 

 

Head Shot Calcs-in case you were wondering

 

 

program used to calculate result found here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/261845-dps-spreadsheet-found-here-includes-procs-and-armor-scaling/

 

With shown build, Dread is superior to Paris Prime against every single enemy type assuming the target doesn't die from the initial impact and slash proc happens to tic the full duration.

 

(made an edit here because darzk made a legit point about the effectiveness of killing a target immediately vs waiting 6  sec to deal the full damage)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Quizel

[Octoknightx]

The slash proc from dread makes dread compete with Paris P in all situations, as it ignores armor completely.

 

Non-head shot and Head shot comparison is attached.

 

This spreadsheet calculates basically everything (haven't fully tested volt's sheild dmg boost-it's on my list)

I gave grineer 500 ferrite and 200 alloy base lvl 8 currently lvl 60 for simulation. Didn't put too much thought into weights yet for average calculation.

 

 

Head Shot Calcs-in case you were wondering

 

 

program used to calculate result found here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/261845-dps-spreadsheet-found-here-includes-procs-and-armor-scaling/

 

With shown build, Dread is superior to Paris Prime against every single enemy type.

yay

[Darealslenderman]

Did the G3 kill you recently? Check to see if you have a extiniished key on. And also make sure you have split chamber on along with getting headshots. Unless the recent fix for mirages super damage bug, bugged other weapons and frames.

[Darzk]

With shown build, Dread is superior to Paris Prime against every single enemy type.

That's a very difficult statement to make conclusively. There's plenty of situations where the proc is irrelevant. For example, if the PPrime can take out a Gunner in a single shot, and the Dread needs to wait for a couple of Bleed ticks...

[Quizel]

That's a very difficult statement to make conclusively. There's plenty of situations where the proc is irrelevant. For example, if the PPrime can take out a Gunner in a single shot, and the Dread needs to wait for a couple of Bleed ticks...

Fair enough, I'll edit it.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

The slash proc from dread makes dread compete with Paris P in all situations, as it ignores armor completely.

 

Non-head shot and Head shot comparison is attached.

 

This spreadsheet calculates basically everything (haven't fully tested volt's sheild dmg boost-it's on my list)

I gave grineer 500 ferrite and 200 alloy base lvl 8 currently lvl 60 for simulation. Didn't put too much thought into weights yet for average calculation.

 

Head Shot Calcs-in case you were wondering

 

program used to calculate result found here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/261845-dps-spreadsheet-found-here-includes-procs-and-armor-scaling/

 

With shown build, Dread is superior to Paris Prime against every single enemy type.

So.. Based on this, Dread does better in almost any situation, except ever so slightly worse with Corpus Robotics. That'll be nice to know if I ever decide I actually want to use bows.

[[DE]Momaw]

Actually I HAVE just noticed that I am getting a lot more half-draws in my shooting rhythm.  I have a lot of experience with using my paris prime, so I have a really good intuitive feel for the draw time I need to hit, to maximize damage in the shortest time possible. But in the missions I was just running, it seemed like the time needed to reach full draw is longer than it used to be by about 1/10th of a second which meant a lot of puny little 3-4K hits.  Hmm.

[[DE]Momaw]

With shown build, Dread is superior to Paris Prime against every single enemy type assuming the target doesn't die from the initial impact and slash proc happens to tic the full duration.

 

I'm not impressed.

 

+ Paris Prime can one-shot anything aside from bosses up to level 70-80ish.  Which means "assuming target doesn't die from the initial impact" is something that only a small minority of players need to care about.

 

+ Dread has only 20% status chance.

 

+ Status buff mods feature less raw damage than their non-status equivalents, reducing Dread's one shot kill potential if you build for status.

 

+ Status chance doesn't give you a guarantee of any particular effect triggering. And given the fact that elements combine to form new elements which are the sum of their parts, your bow's slash damage is going to be weaker (therefore less likely to proc) than your corrosive or blast or whatever you are using.

 

+ You can hit the target multiple times with arrows in the same time it would take the bleed proc, if triggered, to fully play out.

[Quizel]

I'm not impressed.

 

+ Paris Prime can one-shot anything aside from bosses up to level 70-80ish.  Which means "assuming target doesn't die from the initial impact" is something that only a small minority of players need to care about.

 

+ Dread has only 20% status chance.

 

+ Status buff mods feature less raw damage than their non-status equivalents, reducing Dread's one shot kill potential if you build for status.

 

+ Status chance doesn't give you a guarantee of any particular effect triggering. And given the fact that elements combine to form new elements which are the sum of their parts, your bow's slash damage is going to be weaker (therefore less likely to proc) than your corrosive or blast or whatever you are using.

 

+ You can hit the target multiple times with arrows in the same time it would take the bleed proc, if triggered, to fully play out.

+Just for you, that's right just for! I'll pretend the proc does 1/7 of the dmg (only simulates the first tic from a slash proc which happens on impact) I assume your group had 90-100% corrosive projection. In that case, either bow will 1 shot (1 trigger) things in the head on average (2 arrows).

 

+dread only has 20% status

Not sure what you mean by that other than it's slash proc is streaky and only dependable less than 20% of the time ( with build shown proc distribution is: 0.7% impact, 0.7% puncture, 12.6% slash, and 14% corrosive for Dread)

 

+Only status mod being used is hammer shot, which yields the same as an additional elemental mod... 1% with procs on, 3% disregarding procs. a whopping 3% pure dps exchanging hammer shot for cold excluding all possible proc dmg (armor type not specified).

 

+proc distribution used in spread sheet accounts for this

 

+may have to duck for cover or next arrow misses ect

 

I'll link 3 graphs this time. 1 with procs completely off, 1 with procs on but slash proc total dmg reduced to 1/7th and 1 with procs on but with slash proc reduced by 1/7 and head shots.

 

I set alloy armor to 230 instead of 200 (far more accurate with the base level offset by 7 for corrupted lancers),and  500 ferrite armor for heavy gunners. base lvl 8 current lvl "80'ish". 

 

I circled the big debate numbers that really matter and underlined a subjective weighted average of voids (if you don't like my weights well you can change it yourself >.>)

 

"edit note: very end closing comments more useful than looking at any of these graphs and explanations, but they are nice and pretty yes?"

no hs no procs

 

 

 

Paris Prime compared to Dread has 18% dmg increase per trigger pull and 24% dps increase vs a lvl 80'ish corrupted lancer. 

 

 

I decided not to post the graph for procs on @ 1/7 dmg no head shots.

Just takes up more forum space. The results are basically a midpoint between the two posted graphs.

Highlights: Paris Prime has 4% dmg increase per trigger pull and 9% dps increase against a lvl 80'ish corrupted lancer.

 

head shots dmg proc reduced by 1/7

 

 

Paris Prime compared to Dread has 8% dmg decrease per trigger pull and 3% dps decrease vs lvl 80'ish corrupted lancer.

 

Briefly looking at the dmg against ferrite, it's very competitive across all examples I just looked at. With procs off, paris prime had 3% dmg increase per arrow and 8% dps increase. Procs on lets just say it's a wash and procs on head shots dread wins barely.

 

Across all other factions... dread wins or is very competitive >-----> Dread going to be great in the void.

 

Summary:

edit: made new closing statement at bottom but this one is okay too but poorly written

 Paris prime really only outshines the dread against corrupted lancers because of its consistent dps.  

 

 

More reasonable statements: these are per arrow statements.

 

A lvl 80 corrupted lancer has a little over 5.5k hp assuming old hp scaling models are correct either bow will take it down with 2 to the head or 6 in the chest with paris and 8 for dread with no procs. A lvl 80 corrupted heavy gunner has 55,000 hp-which is going to take quite few arrows to take down using either bow. 25 chest shots for Paris Prime and  28 from dread (assuming no procs!) or 7 head shots from either bow, no procs.  That's plenty of arrows for a 13% chance to really turn the tide. A single slash proc on the head is enough to do 58k dmg using either bow, which is enough to 1 shot it.

 

 

Consistently speaking, both bows are nearly equally great.

 

EDIT:

I should have actually done this post assuming near 100% corrosive projection. Instead of posting a ton more graphs heres the bottom line. As you increase corrosive project from 0 to 30 to 60 to 90 to 100%, against alloy armor, the dps difference of the two bows shrinks with paris prime leading by 14% @99.99% armor reduction against corrupted lancers (no procs or red crits considered). With the 1/7 proc considered and red crits, on average, paris prime leads by 7%.  I think my closing summary above could be re-written, but in the end, both bows are on par with each other. 

 

Corrosive Projection 99% armor removed ending summary. Procs and red crits off being it's streaky.

Dread: 29,175 dmg per arrow each head shot against alloy and 50,085 per arrow against ferrite.

Paris: 33,182 dmg per arrow each head shot against alloy and 54,073 per arrow against ferrite.

 

(assuming no multi-shot and my equation for hp scaling is correct)

Dread 1 shots corrupted lancers up to level 180 and corrupted heavy gunners up to level 76

Paris 1 shots corrupted lancers up to level 194 and corrupted heavy gunners up to level 79

 

Since assuming 2 arrows per trigger pull really won't reveal any new information about the comparison it wont' be discussed. Both bows perform very well with 99% corrosive with Paris 1 shotting corrupted lancer/gunners slightly longer.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Quizel

[Darzk]

A lvl 80 corrupted lancer has a little over 5.5k hp assuming old hp scaling models are correct meaning either bow will easily take it down with a single head shot or 4 in the chest-all that mombo jumbo about who does more dps against alloy is meaningless.

 

Corrupted Lancer @ lvl 80 has 5.7k health, and 2300 armor, giving it ~49k effective health. Given that Corrosive has no particular armor mitigation against Alloy and Puncture barely has any, its a fair bet that they will survive bodyshots - headshots would be required. However, with a single CP aura, PPrime will still one shot kill with a double arrow on a body shot, while Dread will not. Still, its a fairly small level range where that occurs, and it depends on the number of CP auras, ofc.

 

It's true that the Dread hits harder than the Paris Prime, mostly because of the extra chance at redcrit. But as a matter of consistency, you want to maximize the guaranteed damage done per shot so you know killing an enemy takes only one shot. If I have a weapon that kills on every hit, versus a weapon that sometimes kills on every hit but sometimes takes a second shot (or a bleed proc), I'm gonna prefer the former, even if the latter has higher average dps. So really what I'm looking for most of the time is DPS, ignoring DoTs, ignoring RedCrits. And PPrime is going to win if only because of the faster draw, let alone the preferential damage type.

 

I love that you've done the work (and math) to quantify the bleed proc's value as sustained DPS. It's just too reliant on the circumstances to be useful. At really high levels, like 160, you're DEFINITELY going to be using 4x CP auras, and Dread *will* be better because Puncture damage loses it's bonus against an unarmored target.

 

Also, the numbers you've listed - is that just damage per shot? Because PPrime also has a slightly faster reload, which helps with DPS but especially with taking out a larger group of lesser enemies.

[Quizel]

Also, the numbers you've listed - is that just damage per shot? Because PPrime also has a slightly faster reload, which helps with DPS but especially with taking out a larger group of lesser enemies.

Sor, was making a lot of adjustments to post and didn't refresh the page. should have done this all first in microsoft word as I made a few errors in judgement.

 

which numbers are you specifically are you talking about? I tried to say which numbers are purely 1 arrow. Brain is fried atm >.>. 

 

Thinking this close examination now needs to assume 100% corrosive projection, as this is the likely assumption for end game players in the void.

 

nvm i think i see where you ment, will fix it

i edit it to say per trigger pull instead of per arrow in a few places just to be clear but I think it 

and sor for anyone that might have saw some off the wall or negative statements while I refined my thoughts >.>

Edited August 2, 2014 by Quizel