We Need Custom Survival Maps.

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

Just like Defense has. Just like Interception had on it's first Earth map. As someone who was around for the Survival Launch Event, that played Survival on the Defense maps, then played them on the RNG maps after their release, I'm one of the people who knows just what the RNG style maps did to the game mode. It wasn't really a good thing.

 

During the event, on the maps built for defense, spawns were actually consistent, were dense, there was actually stuff to kill all the time, my team or I were never running around being bored waiting for stuff to spawn to kill. My first run, we got to around 80 and only quit out because so many things were spawning, there was so much loot and oxygen drops, that the host's computer just couldn't handle it and was lagging everything, so we called it there. That was a lot of fun. Granted, the oxygen mechanic was and still is dumb. From how DE was discribing Survival before it came out, it sounded like survival against endless hoards of enemies. That is not what we have. What we have is survival against a meter that to refill it is entirely based on RNG. That is no fun. ):

 

My memory isn't the best, but when questioned about the maps for Survival, I believe it was Scott who said they were getting moved to the RNG style maps, instead of continuing to use the Defense ones, was because the RNG maps were more fun, the Defense ones were static and boring. Ok. Well let's see how they perform when they come out. The defense maps were a lot of fun so something that should be more fun is even better, right? But, they aren't more fun. Especially if you are doing voids, if you get a bad map generation, your key is basically wasted. You *need* a Nekros to make progress on average. Which means you're minus one damage frame if you actually want to take Survival as far as you can (see note 1). When something was fun, then was made less fun than what we had, that is a problem. I'm going to compare what I have now to what I had before, and see what I have now is less than what I had before.

 

How could we fix this? Well I doubt the Oxygen mechanic will ever get taken out, even if that will make the mode much more fun with that one change, so let's look at the choice that made this mode less fun than it's original iteration. First we had Defense style maps, then we had normal RNG tilesets.  Defense was more survival-y than the normal RNG tilesets. Well, if it was the change in maps that created a (second) problem, let's look at that and change it again. Custom Survival maps, built specifically around the game mode, with holding out and maximizing spawns for enemies to really hoard people being a key point. I'm not really sure how much more effective custom Survival maps would be over the Defense ones, but if the Defense ones are really so boring as Scott said, then let's not use those, but instead make new tiles. Maps built specifically around the game mode wouldn't be subject to possibly getting a bad map generation, or monsters simply not spawning enough to give you the kills and oxygen you need. That would help this mode immensely, not only for getting more XP, mods, and resources out of it but getting more fun out of it as well.

 

Also minor note since Interception isn't actually a problem, it would be cool (but not really necessary since again the mode's maps aren't a problem) if it also had it's own custom maps instead of using the Defense ones. Mainly using the reasoning of all the endless style game modes should have custom maps, since it's the endless style modes that are going to be done most often end game.

 

I  just kind of typed this out as the thoughts came to me, so sorry if there is some overlap or I restate some things one too many times. This issue has really been bugging me (and many Warframe players I know) for a while so I figured I'd finally post about it. What do you guys think? Did you play the original Survival Launch Event? How did you like it? Was the map boring? Did you have Oxygen problems? Compared to the RNG generated maps we have now? Gonna make an effort to regularly check up on this and respond to (constructive) posts, let me know what you guys think!

 

Note 1: Also, please don't say that you don't need a Nekros, you know as well as I do that oxygen is RNG. Saying you don't need one is saying oxygen isn't RNG, that a Nekros/Desecrate literally does not help in any way. When I'm still one hitting everything and not getting enough oxygen, I'm going to go out and say that me not killing things fast enough isn't the problem. The fact that oxygen drops are RNG is the problem, because RNG is RNG. I didn't want to just put this in the middle of the post, so separated it out.

 

EDIT: I made a *small* typo. s:

Edited July 31, 2014 by MA347612890GT4078579132R

[Jamescell]

In my opinion the game mode just needs changing.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Yes please! I want the defense maps back!

 

Strun wraith through those fools

[taiiat]

we could also finally ungoof Enemy Spawns on all of the tiles, since that would kill like 8 birds with one stone. every Gamemode has issues with Enemy Spawns. even Defense to a minor degree, however they're usually enforced there.

 

so if Enemy Spawns & the Dungeonmaster are given some high priority attention, so that Enemies actually spawn like they are supposed to, we simultaneously fix all Gamemodes at the same time.

[kithsakhai]

this seems like a no brainer to me, defense (an infinite wave style game mode) gets its own custom map, interception (which also uses the defence maps, as they are a slightly similar style being an infinite game mode protecting a static point of contention) gets its own map (the earth interception mission map, which i hope the idea of which is moved to other planet tile-sets as well).

 

 It seems like a giant hole in the logic of the game that survival doesn't get this, as it more than all the other game modes, suffers from RNG in terms of:

 

A) you can get screwed by the layout of the map (which happens QUITE often, especially on phobos, earth, the void, and the corpus planet as many of those tile-sets are far too large and spread out for the survival game play). 

 

B) oxygen DROPS are a big point of contention, your team can be killing multiple enemies every second and still run out even with a nekros spamming desecrate, its quite disheartening to literally have just killed a hundred or more enemies rushing the room you're in and be sitting there with a small handful of oxygen drops, then at other times get more oxygen drops than you need for a short time and then hit a dry spell: RNG is RNG and its bad in this sense as one game to the next can't be repeated/improved upon in terms of tactics.

 

C) and this is more an issue with the setting... how on earth (literally) can they shut off the oxygen to the whole planet... seriously.. wth.  for that matter, have the earth one be set inside a deep excavation complex/mine the grineer setup that has its own oxygen system i don't care, but the immersion break of loosing oxygen on the surface of a lush planet is silly and, as i said, immersion breaking.

 

 

so i'd say it would behoove the games quality to include custom oxygen related survival maps for this very purpose: repeatable map sets on various planets that allow tactical approaches to the gameplay with a team to see how far you can get without having to constantly be upset/worried that the random map tilesets will screw the run (especially if its a one time use void key, as you might not realize how bad the level layout ends up being until after the 5 min mark, and by then the key is nixed no matter what)

 

remember the event were we GOT survival? how it was on the defense maps? and how fun it was? and how the player feedback actually was VERY positive? yea? well, run with that, being on a static map for a desperate survival against impossible odds was supposed to be the POINT of survival, now you literally just kill small waves of enemies as they trickle into the room your team is in, and half the time they stand in adjoining rooms not moving to kill you/taking up valuable spawn slots, further exacerbating the problem with the game mode as it stands. (though this last bit is more an issue with ranged enemies AI making them want to run as far away from the player as possible to shoot, causing them to retreat to other rooms, and if you chase them to kill them as soon as you open the door to the other room you prevent even more spawns from that room into the main room you're trying to survive in and the effect on the length of survive-ability snowballs)

Edited July 31, 2014 by kithsakhai

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

In my opinion the game mode just needs changing.

I think removal of the oxygen mechanic and giving it it's own maps would drastically change the mode, for the better.

Yes please! I want the defense maps back!

 

Strun wraith through those fools

I really don't get why the DE's said that the Defense maps were boring to sit on. ):

we could also finally ungoof Enemy Spawns on all of the tiles, since that would kill like 8 birds with one stone. every Gamemode has issues with Enemy Spawns. even Defense to a minor degree, however they're usually enforced there.

 

so if Enemy Spawns & the Dungeonmaster are given some high priority attention, so that Enemies actually spawn like they are supposed to, we simultaneously fix all Gamemodes at the same time.

This too. But even with enemy spawns being fixed, I'd still want custom Survival maps because I think it would still improve the mode.

this seems like a no brainer to me, defense (an infinite wave style game mode) gets its own custom map, interception (which also uses the defence maps, as they are a slightly similar style being an infinite game mode protecting a static point of contention) gets its own map (the earth interception mission map, which i hope the idea of which is moved to other planet tile-sets as well).

 

 It seems like a giant hole in the logic of the game that survival doesn't get this, as it more than all the other game modes, suffers from RNG in terms of:

 

A) you can get screwed by the layout of the map (which happens QUITE often, especially on phobos, earth, the void, and the corpus planet as many of those tile-sets are far too large and spread out for the survival game play). 

 

B) oxygen DROPS are a big point of contention, your team can be killing multiple enemies every second and still run out even with a nekros spamming desecrate, its quite disheartening to literally have just killed a hundred or more enemies rushing the room you're in and be sitting there with a small handful of oxygen drops, then at other times get more oxygen drops than you need for a short time and then hit a dry spell: RNG is RNG and its bad in this sense as one game to the next can't be repeated/improved upon in terms of tactics.

 

C) and this is more an issue with the setting... how on earth (literally) can they shut off the oxygen to the whole planet... seriously.. wth.  for that matter, have the earth one be set inside a deep excavation complex/mine the grineer setup that has its own oxygen system i don't care, but the immersion break of loosing oxygen on the surface of a lush planet is silly and, as i said, immersion breaking.

 

 

so i'd say it would behoove the games quality to include custom oxygen related survival maps for this very purpose: repeatable map sets on various planets that allow tactical approaches to the gameplay with a team to see how far you can get without having to constantly be upset/worried that the random map tilesets will screw the run (especially if its a one time use void key, as you might not realize how bad the level layout ends up being until after the 5 min mark, and by then the key is nixed no matter what)

 

remember the event were we GOT survival? how it was on the defense maps? and how fun it was? and how the player feedback actually was VERY positive? yea? well, run with that, being on a static map for a desperate survival against impossible odds was supposed to be the POINT of survival, now you literally just kill small waves of enemies as they trickle into the room your team is in, and half the time they stand in adjoining rooms not moving to kill you/taking up valuable spawn slots, further exacerbating the problem with the game mode as it stands. (though this last bit is more an issue with ranged enemies AI making them want to run as far away from the player as possible to shoot, causing them to retreat to other rooms, and if you chase them to kill them as soon as you open the door to the other room you prevent even more spawns from that room into the main room you're trying to survive in and the effect on the length of survive-ability snowballs)

I really don't like RNG at all, in any setting. But if DE wants RNG for drops, fine, that's not what this is about. When RNG is a part of a central mechanic in a mode, impeding progress on multiple levels (map generation, oxygen drop, mob spawns) it becomes a huge problem. RNG should not be a central part of a how a game mode works, determining how much progress you can make.

[taiiat]

This too. But even with enemy spawns being fixed, I'd still want custom Survival maps because I think it would still improve the mode.

i agree, but the types of improvements that are likely to be implemented first are the ones that fix as many things at once as possible. same amount of work, but a lot more improvement. more cost efficient ;)

[DSpite]

What we need is for Survival and Defense to be REMOVED and placed as a VR environment for training. Unless you people really think that either of those modes are realistic in any way shape or form, in a game where we play as Ninjas. I don't recall every seeing Ninjas play Turret Defence before, maybe I have not gone to the right places.

 

What we NEED is missions that have some actually scripting behind them, and not tiles that spawn mobs from behind crates 10 feet away and send them running towards us like lambs to the slaughter.

 

Would you be playing these new Survival maps if the rewards were removed? I'm guessing the answer is no, because I'm pretty sure no one is playing them for fun, because they are NOT fun, and if you seriously like them, here, you'll LOVE this : http://store.steampowered.com/app/302270/

 

On the other hand, missions with some thought behind that and that have scripted event here and there would have far more longevity. I would be very happy if the Mastery Rank tests were able to be done for the hell of it, for example, as I would love to try them with all different guns, I'm sure new missions would have just as much replay ability.

[Tyroki]

Survival just needs help in general.

We've been saying this for ages now, and DE just don't listen :\

 

Or they sort of do, but don't implement the changes the mode actually needs, so the problems persist.

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

i agree, but the types of improvements that are likely to be implemented first are the ones that fix as many things at once as possible. same amount of work, but a lot more improvement. more cost efficient ;)

True, but I'd imagine those two issues (creation of a new map and fixing spawn issues) would actually take different teams.

 

What we need is for Survival and Defense to be REMOVED and placed as a VR environment for training. Unless you people really think that either of those modes are realistic in any way shape or form, in a game where we play as Ninjas. I don't recall every seeing Ninjas play Turret Defence before, maybe I have not gone to the right places.

 

What we NEED is missions that have some actually scripting behind them, and not tiles that spawn mobs from behind crates 10 feet away and send them running towards us like lambs to the slaughter.

 

Would you be playing these new Survival maps if the rewards were removed? I'm guessing the answer is no, because I'm pretty sure no one is playing them for fun, because they are NOT fun, and if you seriously like them, here, you'll LOVE this : http://store.steampowered.com/app/302270/

 

On the other hand, missions with some thought behind that and that have scripted event here and there would have far more longevity. I would be very happy if the Mastery Rank tests were able to be done for the hell of it, for example, as I would love to try them with all different guns, I'm sure new missions would have just as much replay ability.

Hmm, I think you're taking the whole "space ninja" thing too far. It's just kind of a general theme, not something that has to be followed to the letter. The endless modes such as Defense and Survival and Interception are good for something to do at end game. I personally (and I know my feelings on this aren't exclusive to me) hate spamming shorter missions like Capture and Exterminate over and over and over again. I enjoyed the Survival Event. It was fun. The changes DE made to survival made it not fun anymore. They could make it fun again very easily. Also, why would the rewards be removed from these modes? Your argument could be applied to anything. Remove rewards completely from Warframe. All you get is your start frame and your MK-1 equipment. Unless you buy anything with real money. Let's see how fun that is.

 

EDIT: Also, I @(*()$ hate Dungeon Defenders. I like defense, and liked survival before they changed it. Interception is OK too.

EDIT 2: Also hold up, realism? What? Seriously, you're using realism in your argument here? I don't recall any ninjas ever running around with rocket launchers and flammenwerfers dual wielding magnums with a claymore on their back with a bat dog thing that has Vrolik Syndrome as their companion.

 

Survival just needs help in general.

We've been saying this for ages now, and DE just don't listen :\

 

Or they sort of do, but don't implement the changes the mode actually needs, so the problems persist.

Survival has gotten some minor help, very recently too, but help that wouldn't have been needed if survival either used defense maps or had it's own. Adding more end rooms that things could spawn in did help, but not really enough. Survival still has large amounts of time where I'm not really killing anything, running around looking for stuff to kill, waiting for things to trickle into the room slowly.

Edited August 1, 2014 by MA347612890GT4078579132R

[taiiat]

True, but I'd imagine those two issues (creation of a new map and fixing spawn issues) would actually take different teams.

probably.

 

Hmm, I think you're taking the whole "space ninja" thing too far. It's just kind of a general theme, not something that has to be followed to the letter.

probably. the Community coined Space Ninjas anyways, Digital Extremes didn't have that in mind. it is infact fitting, but we're also mercenaries. we're iffy ninjas at best.

 

I hate Dungeon Defenders

:(

you don't want to know how many Hours i have in it then. it's closish to, but not quite as much as i have in Warframe.

[DSpite]

True, but I'd imagine those two issues (creation of a new map and fixing spawn issues) would actually take different teams.

 

Hmm, I think you're taking the whole "space ninja" thing too far. It's just kind of a general theme, not something that has to be followed to the letter. The endless modes such as Defense and Survival and Interception are good for something to do at end game. I personally (and I know my feelings on this aren't exclusive to me) hate spamming shorter missions like Capture and Exterminate over and over and over again. I enjoyed the Survival Event. It was fun. The changes DE made to survival made it not fun anymore. They could make it fun again very easily. Also, why would the rewards be removed from these modes? Your argument could be applied to anything. Remove rewards completely from Warframe. All you get is your start frame and your MK-1 equipment. Unless you buy anything with real money. Let's see how fun that is.

 

EDIT: Also, I @(*()$ hate Dungeon Defenders. I like defense, and liked survival before they changed it. Interception is OK too.

EDIT 2: Also hold up, realism? What? Seriously, you're using realism in your argument here? I don't recall any ninjas ever running around with rocket launchers and flammenwerfers dual wielding magnums with a claymore on their back with a bat dog thing that has Vrolik Syndrome as their companion.

 

Survival has gotten some minor help, very recently too, but help that wouldn't have been needed if survival either used defense maps or had it's own. Adding more end rooms that things could spawn in did help, but not really enough. Survival still has large amounts of time where I'm not really killing anything, running around looking for stuff to kill, waiting for things to trickle into the room slowly.

 

"Realism" implies the ability to run around in whatever GAME environment you are in without seeing things that are massively out of whack. I don't expect to see Unicorns in this game, I also don't expect to hear a siren sound and then see distant doors opening and disgorging exactly 100 infested before closing again, it breaks all illusions of what this game is about.

 

When running Defense or Survival, the game should get harder because of HOW the mobs go about reinforcing the map, not because they simply scale up and up and up. If at Wave 20 a Dropship appeared and started using it's onboard guns to supplement troop damage until boarded and disabled, it would make more sense then mobs suddenly having higher levels then Tenno.

 

There is lots of ways to make the defense harder, like dropping in turrets, or weapon emplacements, or long range bombardments ... ANYTHING that changes the flow and forces players to do SOMETHING different from the previous wave makes more sense then just MORE troops at HIGHER level.

 

We are in fact already playing Dungeon Defenders, you just fail to see it.

[-TK-Tao.Len]

Yeah.DE please make the survival maps like the defense ones!

[-TK-Tao.Len]

It wasn't boring  !

[Sunao_M]

*snip*

 

C) and this is more an issue with the setting... how on earth (literally) can they shut off the oxygen to the whole planet... seriously.. wth.  for that matter, have the earth one be set inside a deep excavation complex/mine the grineer setup that has its own oxygen system i don't care, but the immersion break of loosing oxygen on the surface of a lush planet is silly and, as i said, immersion breaking.

*snip*

I have a way around the immersion break personally...

 

"A desolate, ruined world. Home of the oppressive Grineer Empire."

 

From the Earth wiki, First I take that, so I assume that Earth is practically destroyed, there is no atmosphere anymore. Then I assume that the areas with flora and fauna growth, are within a Bio-dome, a self sustaining habitat.  

It may not be the lore, but I haven't seen anything that says this couldn't be a possibility. 

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

"Realism" implies the ability to run around in whatever GAME environment you are in without seeing things that are massively out of whack. I don't expect to see Unicorns in this game, I also don't expect to hear a siren sound and then see distant doors opening and disgorging exactly 100 infested before closing again, it breaks all illusions of what this game is about.

 

When running Defense or Survival, the game should get harder because of HOW the mobs go about reinforcing the map, not because they simply scale up and up and up. If at Wave 20 a Dropship appeared and started using it's onboard guns to supplement troop damage until boarded and disabled, it would make more sense then mobs suddenly having higher levels then Tenno.

 

There is lots of ways to make the defense harder, like dropping in turrets, or weapon emplacements, or long range bombardments ... ANYTHING that changes the flow and forces players to do SOMETHING different from the previous wave makes more sense then just MORE troops at HIGHER level.

 

We are in fact already playing Dungeon Defenders, you just fail to see it.

OK well first you said they need to be gotten rid of entirely because their mere existence isn't 'realistic' because we are 'ninjas'. How do the mobs go about reinforcing the map? Well let's see, you're on a ship/outpost/tower controlled/infested by the Grineer/Corpus/Infested/Neural Sentry, reinforcements are going to keep being drawn from other parts of these areas, and obviously if what they sent didn't kill you, they will send something stronger.

 

I have a way around the immersion break personally...

 

"A desolate, ruined world. Home of the oppressive Grineer Empire."

 

From the Earth wiki, First I take that, so I assume that Earth is practically destroyed, there is no atmosphere anymore. Then I assume that the areas with flora and fauna growth, are within a Bio-dome, a self sustaining habitat.  

It may not be the lore, but I haven't seen anything that says this couldn't be a possibility. 

It's still really silly, shutting off the life support to an entire planet. Include the Grineer shipyards and Corpus Outposts to that.

[Anarchel]

There are actually numerous threads discussing the whole "shutting down a planets life support"-thingie.

Let's try to focus on the problem at hand, layout of those maps, not their lore or realism.

 

The sad thing is, T4 Survival actually was fine before U14 hit. You could go until 60 minutes without any trouble regarding the air.

Then, U14. Now you run around looking for a single enemy to dispose of. Often running out of air even with a Nekros before the 30 minutes mark. After which, the spawn rate increases to a decent amount again. But seriously, can't be DEs aim to make the first 30 minutes of Survival the most crucial, just because there isn't ANYTHING to kill.

 

I really love survival. It's my favorite game mode, and yes, I would even run it without rewards.

If I was unable to get further than 20 minutes because we as a team were simply bad, I could accept that and just try harder next time.

But if the game doesn't even give us the possibility to get further it's just plain depressing.

 

 

P.S.: ...and then there was some guy on this forum, demanding DEs made the T4S easier, because he and his friend were totally outnumbered by enemies.

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

There are actually numerous threads discussing the whole "shutting down a planets life support"-thingie.

Let's try to focus on the problem at hand, layout of those maps, not their lore or realism.

 

The sad thing is, T4 Survival actually was fine before U14 hit. You could go until 60 minutes without any trouble regarding the air.

Then, U14. Now you run around looking for a single enemy to dispose of. Often running out of air even with a Nekros before the 30 minutes mark. After which, the spawn rate increases to a decent amount again. But seriously, can't be DEs aim to make the first 30 minutes of Survival the most crucial, just because there isn't ANYTHING to kill.

 

I really love survival. It's my favorite game mode, and yes, I would even run it without rewards.

If I was unable to get further than 20 minutes because we as a team were simply bad, I could accept that and just try harder next time.

But if the game doesn't even give us the possibility to get further it's just plain depressing.

 

 

P.S.: ...and then there was some guy on this forum, demanding DEs made the T4S easier, because he and his friend were totally outnumbered by enemies.

Well that was why I made the thread. But I disagree, T4 Survival wasn't fine before U14 hit. Survival hasn't been fine since it's map type was changed. No matter what mission/difficulty the best we could do (average) was around the 40-45 mark, before U14. Mercury survival or T4, we'd average the same times, over numerous runs, so I'm going to strike difficulty down as the cause. Though U14 has made it worse, and I'm not sure as to why. Now, we can barely scratch 20 minutes with a Nekros since U14 hit, again, doesn't matter the difficulty, on average we have to extract at the same times. The endless modes are really all there is at end game, for someone who has played this game for years, I just can't stand another Capture or Exterminate after doing them over and over again, when each one is the same because they don't even scale up. I like being able to just dig down and see how far I can last. But, as you said, the game doesn't even give us that chance.

[Anarchel]

Well that was why I made the thread. But I disagree, T4 Survival wasn't fine before U14 hit. Survival hasn't been fine since it's map type was changed. No matter what mission/difficulty the best we could do (average) was around the 40-45 mark, before U14. Mercury survival or T4, we'd average the same times, over numerous runs, so I'm going to strike difficulty down as the cause.

Before U14 we were able to get to 60 minutes several times and with relative ease, without a Nekros. However, T4 was the only difficulty to allow that. All the others demanded a Nekros before and after U14. I guess they "balanced" the T4 with the arrival of U14.

 

Either way, got way worse since U14.

[Cherry7UP]

This is a pretty good idea. Unfortunately I was not around for when Survival was on defense maps, or else I may have a better grasp on what you're asking. Still, I'd support this change.

[Macdermott]

Yeah I'm not thrilled with the concept of Earth having it's atmosphere somehow "shut off"...