The Old Linear Solar Chart Gave User Better Feedback Of Progression. We Should Have A Hybrid.

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

It's definitely worth discussing, as everyone here obviously wants this game to be immersive. 

 

Anyways, to answer your question: yes, I think it can be. It's not presently, but with some work it easily could. For me, the old menu felt like a bit of an immersion cop-out, like they just put your character there as a little visual flair for a game menu. Obviously this works for some people, but it never felt "there" for me. The main problem we have right now is that immersion is being totally broken by bad menu design. I don't feel, however, that we're moving away from immersion. 

[Methanoid]

It's definitely worth discussing, as everyone here obviously wants this game to be immersive. 

 

Anyways, to answer your question: yes, I think it can be. It's not presently, but with some work it easily could. For me, the old menu felt like a bit of an immersion cop-out, like they just put your character there as a little visual flair for a game menu. Obviously this works for some people, but it never felt "there" for me. The main problem we have right now is that immersion is being totally broken by bad menu design. I don't feel, however, that we're moving away from immersion.

We arent moving away from "your" idea of immersion, we are moving away from other peoples idea of immersion, the ship is currently part of the bad/broken menu design given that the ship part does nothing else.

But again you seem to think our menus should be immersive, im of the crowd that thinks immersion has no place in the menus, the active runaround portion of the game should have all the immersion with the menus having ease of use, form and function.

[vaugahn]

We arent moving away from "your" idea of immersion, we are moving away from other peoples idea of immersion, the ship is currently part of the bad/broken menu design given that the ship part does nothing else.

But again you seem to think our menus should be immersive, im of the crowd that thinks immersion has no place in the menus, the active runaround portion of the game should have all the immersion with the menus having ease of use, form and function.

 

Well why shouldn't we? Your position seems to be that the menus are bad because they're slowing down you getting into the game. Quick menus and immersive menus are not mutually exclusive.

 

And I think you'll find many people disagree with your statement that the ship is bad/broken and does nothing.

[Methanoid]

And I think you'll find many people disagree with your statement that the ship is bad/broken and does nothing.

 

then tell me what mechanical additions it brings to the game, without going all mystical/guru meditation and saying "immersion".

 

what does it do to enhance my game, what new "thing" did it bring for me to play, if it was removed what critical or even minor gameplay elements would i lose?

[vaugahn]

then tell me what mechanical additions it brings to the game, without going all mystical/guru meditation and saying "immersion".

 

what does it do to enhance my game, what new "thing" did it bring for me to play, if it was removed what critical or even minor gameplay elements would i lose?

 

I'm not sure why you think immersion is some sort of nebulous cop-out, but for myself and many others immersion is the main reason to play a game, and that's exactly what it brings. Think what you will of that, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and no matter how lame you think immersion is to others it is important.

[unknow99]

That's true,it lacks progression. Please Dorian & Pablo, we know you can do it.

 

[Methanoid]

I'm not sure why you think immersion is some sort of nebulous cop-out, but for myself and many others immersion is the main reason to play a game, and that's exactly what it brings. Think what you will of that, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and no matter how lame you think immersion is to others it is important.

i said immersion is important - DURING the game, not stuck in the menu system, immersion in our menus is a pathetic attempt to justify the ships existence which currently does utterly nothing.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Methanoid

[vaugahn]

i said immersion is important - DURING the game, not stuck in the menu system, immersion in our menus is a pathetic attempt to justify the ships existence which currently does utterly nothing.

 

And I think immersion is important everywhere. Immersion in our menus is an excellent justification for the ship to exist, and it drastically improves the quality of my experience. Unfortunately, I've got nothing more to add. Feel free to attempt to devalue my opinion all you want, but that's it.

 

Immersion and ease of use aren't mutually exclusive, and if you can't even abide by the existence of immersive features in a game menu then I'm not really sure what to say. 

[Methanoid]

And I think immersion is important everywhere. Immersion in our menus is an excellent justification for the ship to exist, and it drastically improves the quality of my experience. Unfortunately, I've got nothing more to add. Feel free to attempt to devalue my opinion all you want, but that's it.

 

Immersion and ease of use aren't mutually exclusive, and if you can't even abide by the existence of immersive features in a game menu then I'm not really sure what to say. 

well thats fine, your simply lucky that your personal opinion gels with the devs, while a load of us are SOL with no options/alternatives.

 

other than "immersion" as the typical 1 word reply a lot throw around, you still havent said what the ship does other than giving "immersion aka eyecandy" to all.

 

1) say a weapon gets released then thats something concrete something that has an effect on the game we play, something we can take and use.

2) dark sectors were released, thats something that gave us some different game mechanics with a place to fight infested.

3) spectres/wow hunter pets (kubrows), an addition you can do something with, they have an impact and effect on your games.

4) new warframes get released, thats something new we can lvl up, use, fight with that directly impacts our gameplay.

^ technically all of those + more are "immersive" but they do something other than please the eye

 

ships dont have that, they were added and do nothing new, nothing useful, nothing different, their just a sad excuse for a changed menu system we didnt need, ok ill give you that you like it as immersive but that just means its something new thats immersive but still completely featureless, other than your "immersion" it does nothing....at all, instead of a ship they could have put my warframe in a room with nothing but posters of mostly naked women on the walls and id still find that "immersive" but id still acknowledge that the room would be an utterly pointless addition to the game.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Methanoid

[vaugahn]

well thats fine, your simply lucky that your personal opinion gels with the devs, while a load of us are SOL with no options/alternatives.

 

other than "immersion" as the typical 1 word reply a lot throw around, you still havent said what the ship does other than giving "immersion aka eyecandy" to all.

 

1) say a weapon gets released then thats something concrete something that has an effect on the game we play, something we can take and use.

2) dark sectors were released, thats something that gave us some different game mechanics with a place to fight infested.

3) spectres/wow hunter pets (kubrows), an addition you can do something with, they have an impact and effect on your games.

4) new warframes get released, thats something new we can lvl up, use, fight with that directly impacts our gameplay.

^ technically all of those + more are "immersive" but they do something other than please the eye

 

ships dont have that, they were added and do nothing new, nothing useful, nothing different, their just a sad excuse for a changed menu system we didnt need, ok ill give you that you like it as immersive but that just means its something new thats immersive but still completely featureless, other than your "immersion" it does nothing....at all, instead of a ship they could have put my warframe in a room with nothing but posters of mostly naked women on the walls and id still find that "immersive" but id still acknowledge that the room would be an utterly pointless addition to the game.

 

Do you still really not get that immersion matters to some people? You can talk yourself blue in the face about how you don't think the ship added anything, you can put immersion in quotes every time you type it, you can make all the sarcastic comparisons in the world and it won't change anything. Some people like that stuff.

[Loswaith]

...

Immersion and ease of use aren't mutually exclusive, and if you can't even abide by the existence of immersive features in a game menu then I'm not really sure what to say. 

No they arent mutually exclusive.  However a lack of ease of use does break immersion.  So creating immersion at the expense of ease of use is counter productive. 

Its the simple factor of ease of use can exist without immersion, immersion cannot exist without ease of use.

 

Games dont always have to be immersive to be fun or entertaining (I'm sure we can all think of a few like that), while fun and entertainment is the point of games.

[Kaian-a-coel]

No they arent mutually exclusive.  However a lack of ease of use does break immersion.  So creating immersion at the expense of ease of use is counter productive. 

Its the simple factor of ease of use can exist without immersion, immersion cannot exist without ease of use.

Agree. Thus our problem with the current UI: it tries to be immersive at the expense of ease of use, therefore breaking immersion.

[-CLM-Heimdal]

(Everyone talks about immersion and wamt it everywhere, serioussly this immersion stuff isn't needed in a menu and someone was talking about the 'ship' ( claustrophobic room) like something immersive ( i'm laughing too much ). The immersion is only needed during a mission and not in a menu.

[Methanoid]

Do you still really not get that immersion matters to some people? You can talk yourself blue in the face about how you don't think the ship added anything, you can put immersion in quotes every time you type it, you can make all the sarcastic comparisons in the world and it won't change anything. Some people like that stuff.

some people yes, all no, great your catered too with immersion in your menus and the functionless/featureless ship, how about us who dont want it in our menus, or star chart etc ruining the older functionality and presentation we had previously?

 

your replys pretty much revolve around the fact that you like it all so we should too, where as we are saying we dont like it, at least give us some options to change that so both partys are catered too rather than dismiss our opinions totally, this is a pretty strange beta if opinions from the playing public are largely ignored with only minor things being considered.

 

plus youve jumped right back into the immersion thing again, i accepted you like that kind of thing, but myself and others dont, i didnt ask you for a reply regarding immersion i asked what else it does other than that which the rest of us can be happy about, what do i gain, what can i do with it, what does it do for me/others.

[Methanoid]

(Everyone talks about immersion and wamt it everywhere, serioussly this immersion stuff isn't needed in a menu and someone was talking about the 'ship' ( claustrophobic room) like something immersive ( i'm laughing too much ). The immersion is only needed during a mission and not in a menu.

i think various people assume if something is a step back in function/form but is very pretty then its a step forward and we should all silently embrace it without a single word of concern.

[vaugahn]

some people yes, all no, great your catered too with immersion in your menus and the functionless/featureless ship, how about us who dont want it in our menus, or star chart etc ruining the older functionality and presentation we had previously?

 

your replys pretty much revolve around the fact that you like it all so we should too, where as we are saying we dont like it, at least give us some options to change that so both partys are catered too rather than dismiss our opinions totally, this is a pretty strange beta if opinions from the playing public are largely ignored with only minor things being considered.

 

plus youve jumped right back into the immersion thing again, i accepted you like that kind of thing, but myself and others dont, i didnt ask you for a reply regarding immersion i asked what else it does other than that which the rest of us can be happy about, what do i gain, what can i do with it, what does it do for me/others.

 

Immersion and ease of use aren't polar opposites. They can both be present. The ESC menu can be un-nested, the menus can be made flat, the star chart can be reorganized, and so on. This UI can be just as good, if not better, than our old one.

 

My responses to you revolve around the fact that you're unable to accept any opinions other than your own, and you think that because you think immersion is stupid everyone else should too.

[Methanoid]

Immersion and ease of use aren't polar opposites. They can both be present. The ESC menu can be un-nested, the menus can be made flat, the star chart can be reorganized, and so on. This UI can be just as good, if not better, than our old one.

they are polar opposites NOW tho.

 

we dont have a crystal ball, we dont know what it will or could be like in the future thats just guesswork, we only know what it is now, and right now they are fighting each other instead of coexisting.   We have no idea if they will be equal to our old setup nevermind better.

[Kaian-a-coel]

they are polar opposites NOW tho.

 

we dont have a crystal ball, we dont know what it will or could be like in the future thats just guesswork, we only know what it is now, and right now they are fighting each other instead of coexisting.   We have no idea if they will be equal to our old setup nevermind better.

Oooooooh. You're one of those. "This attempt at progress failed, therefore progress is bad.". "We can't know the future, let's not even try, the past is so much better.". "This iteration is not as good as the previous one, therefore it's worse in every point.".

I offer you my contempt. No refunds.

 

EDIT: To make an analogy, the UI is like a meal. Immersion is how it looks, ease of use is how it tastes.

Old UI looked plain but tasted good, and we were all happy.

The cooks tried to improve on the looks and made it looks rather pretty all considered. But now it tastes like sh*t, so nobody's happy.

"immersion people" are praising the cooks' efforts on the looks, but wish it'd taste good like it did before, because it'd be super amazing to have it look good and taste good and they'd have the best meal ever.

You, on the other hand, are berating them for trying to improve and wish it went back to how it was before, and you're looking down on people who want the looks AND the taste.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Kaian-a-coel

[Methanoid]

Oooooooh. You're one of those. "This attempt at progress failed, therefore progress is bad.". "We can't know the future, let's not even try, the past is so much better.". "This iteration is not as good as the previous one, therefore it's worse in every point.".

I offer you my contempt. No refunds.

 

EDIT: To make an analogy, the UI is like a meal. Immersion is how it looks, ease of use is how it tastes.

Old UI looked plain but tasted good, and we were all happy.

The cooks tried to improve on the looks and made it looks rather pretty all considered. But now it tastes like sh*t, so nobody's happy.

"immersion people" are praising the cooks' efforts on the looks, but wish it'd taste good like it did before, because it'd be super amazing to have it look good and taste good and they'd have the best meal ever.

You, on the other hand, are berating them for trying to improve and wish it went back to how it was before, and you're looking down on people who want the looks AND the taste.

 

im saying his opinion that we shouldnt panic or voice concerns over the areas that have regressed based solely on guesswork of what might happen in the future doesnt help anyone right now because we just dont know what will happen, hes basically saying "just hang in there and wait and see, all WILL be well eventually", well yeah it might and just as easily might not, he has utterly no way of knowing, he cant present his own personal opinion based on unknown future events as gospel.

 

my opinion is that change is fine, backwards change is not fine, having a pretty or tarted up gui is totally ok but retrograded functionality and presentation is a bad thing and it doesnt seem like that part will be addressed, only minor things are seen/known to be getting a tweak, just because some people like the change why should us who dont like many of the changes not have our voices heard.

 

if youve actually read any of my posts youd know that i do like some changes and dont like the obvious bad ones, id voiced long ago about the old starter experience being pretty poor most esp when lua/eurasia were over the top rock solid and the general inconsistencies for new players with their beginner weapons once dmg2.0 landed, the new starter experience ive said quite a few times is a stellar improvement.

 

but here you are seemingly taking my disapproval for the solar map, ship and backward menu system as a global sweeping "he hates it all, he hates everything and is seeking a total downgrade to pure U13 status", well thats pretty shortsighted and ofc utterly incorrect, when you say "this iteration" that encompases far too much, like i said some parts are fine, some are bad, obviously bad to many hense the large quantity of posts asking for change, some form of change, any change, and as a lot of us know what worked well previously thats obviously going to be the first example we grasp for.

 

to reply to your immersion analogy, im looking down on ppl who want looks and taste?   er no, most and many ppl want the looks and are saying the taste isnt anywhere near as good as before but their happy putting up with a poor taste because the dish looks so very nice, the reason for that i have no idea, why should they accept it so easily knowing its not as good?, that i find simply amazing, im the one who wants taste and looks but the tastes horrible compared to before, so the looks dont really matter after that.

 

this is supposedly a beta, i see it mentioned often so wheres the proper feedback and action, it seems like we have action but feedback is largely of little importance unless that feedback mostly agrees with the in-use plan and requires minor changes, ppl make it sound like im the only one voicing concerns, well the forums are filled with concern and it doesnt seem like any opinions of actual importance are being taken in.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Methanoid