What Priority Is Balancing Really Given?

[Seanjuju]

Title: What Priority is Balancing Really Given?

 

(Not Everything Can Be Fixed At Once) Understandable.

 

After a frame or weapon is "fixed." regardless of the nature of the fix, it will not be fixed again for some time. Why? Players must give this new change a "chance." Feedback has little effect after a fix because the new change has not been properly tried. (The backlash is a reflex of the community, they must give it time then provide feedback)  In theory, feedback is taken into consideration prior to fixing.

 

(The nature of this post: Feedback)

Torid.

It's completely fine that you've never used or heard of this weapon.

I'll keep its background brief:

- No weapon has had more issues than Torid

-Shoots grenades that produce gas

-Damage 2.0 Collateral Damage

 

DE has never been Proactive about fixing the Torid while having been fully aware of its issues. Its not a very popular weapon but those who use it have always been vocal in the past. I can't remember exactly but its usually 2-4 months between Torid "fixes." The previous fix did nothing in terms of fixing Torid. It came a few months after Damage 2.0. 

 

(If its too long, it won't get read)

The issue is that in Torid's case, the gas had always dealt the majority of the damage. That's how the weapon functioned. That's no longer true. The impact of the grenade does most of the damage and the gas is negligible. It's a joke. The mechanics are wrong despite the excellent feedback given by players. While Torid is Damage 2.0 Collateral, it can't be argued that damage 2.0 prevented DE from fixing broken mechanics.

 

(I don't know how to get them to understand)

How many pages of responses do you need? 60? 100? How in-depth do you want me to go with the issues? Are megathreads the only feedback given any attention now? What will make you see the feedback and fix appropriately.? You're aware of the problems. Torid was De-Facto Retired as a weapon. Damage 2.0 is not an excuse. How can I make you understand what the weapon is supposed to do when you set out to fix it.

 

I don't was to see absent-minded fixes which nullify feedback for months.

 

When will it be Torid's time for balance? When?

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2014 by Seanjuju

[NuLycan]

Honestly, (and this isn't even in regards to the torid) I don't even think balancing is a priority at all for DE.

[vaugahn]

It seems like their current main priority is getting the game feature complete. I seriously doubt no balancing will ever happen, but in-depth balancing passes don't seem to be high on their list right now. That said, recent PvP nerfs and the ammo changes show that balancing is indeed something they want to do. 

[BrotherIcarus]

Honestly, (and this isn't even in regards to the torid) I don't even think balancing is a priority at all for DE.

Ah yes the obligatory "DE doesn't balance" post.

Edited August 9, 2014 by BrotherIcarus

[sambarpowder]

I've stayed around these forums a looong time, and there's one point I've noticed since U6 when I joined.

 

DE's system of receiving and dealing with feedback is slower than a Rhino coptering with a fragor. Though they have put in place a means to acknowledge issues (community hot topics) their actual responses are extremely delayed. IDK why but they simply can't make up their minds and they're also completely fine with many of the absurd inconsistencies present in the game.

 

I don't know about others but I've just learned to live with it.

[Seanjuju]

It seems like their current main priority is getting the game feature complete. I seriously doubt no balancing will ever happen, but in-depth balancing passes don't seem to be high on their list right now. That said, recent PvP nerfs and the ammo changes show that balancing is indeed something they want to do. 

PVP is a touchy subject for many players so DE is working very hard to make it work the way they envisioned. This circumstance is less about balance. As you said though, its not in-depth balancing they're doing there either.

[NuLycan]

Ah yes the obligatory "DE doesn't balance" post.

Look at how long it takes DE to balance things (rhino's iron skin, the penta and ogris ammo issues) and tell me those were priorities.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Title: What Priority is Balancing Really Given?

 

(Not Everything Can Be Fixed At Once) Understandable.

 

After a frame or weapon is "fixed." regardless of the nature of the fix, it will not be fixed again for some time. Why? Players must give this new change a "chance." Feedback has little effect after a fix because the new change has not been properly tried. (The backlash is a reflex of the community, they must give it time then provide feedback)  In theory, feedback is taken into consideration prior to fixing.

 

(The nature of this post: Feedback)

Torid.

It's completely fine that you've never used or heard of this weapon.

I'll keep its background brief:

- No weapon has had more issues than Torid

-Shoots grenades that produce gas

-Damage 2.0 Collateral Damage

 

DE has never been Proactive about fixing the Torid while having been fully aware of its issues. Its not a very popular weapon but those who use it have always been vocal in the past. I can't remember exactly but its usually 2-4 months between Torid "fixes." The previous fix did nothing in terms of fixing Torid. It came a few months after Damage 2.0. 

 

(If its too long, it won't get read)

The issue is that in Torid's case, the gas had always dealt the majority of the damage. That's how the weapon functioned. That's no longer true. The impact of the grenade does most of the damage and the gas is negligible. It's a joke. The mechanics are wrong despite the excellent feedback given by players. While Torid is Damage 2.0 Collateral, it can't be argued that damage 2.0 prevented DE from fixing broken mechanics.

 

(I don't know how to get them to understand)

How many pages of responses do you need? 60? 100? How in-depth do you want me to go with the issues? Are megathreads the only feedback given any attention now? What will make you see the feedback and fix appropriately.? You're aware of the problems. Torid was De-Facto Retired as a weapon. Damage 2.0 is not an excuse. How can I make you understand what the weapon is supposed to do when you set out to fix it.

 

I don't was to see absent-minded fixes which nullify feedback for months.

 

When will it be Torid's time for balance? When?

I really would like it if the team started working on weapon balance, even if it was done at 5 at a time per Wednesday, at least.

[vaugahn]

PVP is a touchy subject for many players so DE is working very hard to make it work the way they envisioned. This circumstance is less about balance. As you said though, its not in-depth balancing they're doing there either.

 

With a game this unfinished, balance isn't a top priority. This game can barely even be called a beta, it's practically in alpha still. Based of other games DE has made it's obvious they know how to balance content, but at this phase in Warframe's development it doesn't seem like they have all the content in place to properly balance it.

[BrotherIcarus]

Look at how long it takes DE to balance things (rhino's iron skin, the penta and ogris ammo issues) and tell me those were priorities.

This just proves how little gamers know about the development process. 

[Somedude1000]

We'll have to wait for a reasonable amount of time for a rebalance, but then again, if there's enough outrage (like with Broken Lights) they may speed things up slightly :D

[Seanjuju]

I've stayed around these forums a looong time, and there's one point I've noticed since U6 when I joined.

 

DE's system of receiving and dealing with feedback is slower than a Rhino coptering with a fragor. Though they have put in place a means to acknowledge issues (community hot topics) their actual responses are extremely delayed. IDK why but they simply can't make up their minds and they're also completely fine with many of the absurd inconsistencies present in the game.

 

I don't know about others but I've just learned to live with it.

I thought I learned to live with the imbalances but Torid was De-Facto retired and it wasn't entirely because of damage 2.0. I let it go when DE "fixed" it. To see it changed again and for the worse, is too much.

 

Even when something is changed, it's as if the feedback never reached them.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Seanjuju

[CaptainJohnson]

My sincere hope is that they consider the current feedback on the Torid and give it a facelift before they push out the fix on Wednesday- they still have plenty of time to look over it and reconsider giving it at least a little buff to account for its massive nerf. The rest of the weapons they nerf'd made sense, and were high-tier weapons already- the Angstrum, Penta, Ogris, and Castanas could all do massive damage when modded right and used to their full potential. Honestly, all of them should continue to perform well, they just won't be as abuse-able- the Angstrum being a possible exception considering its ammo usage, but with such a powerful weapon, I can say that it's fair.

 

Heck, I probably won't even slap on Rifle Ammo Mutation on any of 'em because they're probably going to work just fine if you actually take the time to pick out ammo every so often.

 

The Torid, though, is still a crying shame. I tried the weapon myself and couldn't tell if I loved it or hated it- the mechanics were interesting, had potential, but it just fell... flat. This was Damage 2.0, of course, but still... I eventually sold it because it just wasn't performing the way I'd hoped and was a tad on the ugly side (no offense to the developers, I assume it was meant to be that way). I still think it's at least possible that they'll re-evaluate the current numbers and consider giving the Torid a buff to keep it more in-line with other launchers.

[Seanjuju]

Though it's probably wishful thinking, I also hope that the developers re-evaluate the numbers but more-importantly the mechanics of the Torid prior to shipping these balances. If DE makes an effort to return damage to the gas, the Torid could be a unique weapon rather than a broken one.

 

I see my greatest obstacle as getting DE to take the feedback into consideration prior to any changes.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Seanjuju

[NuLycan]

This just proves how little gamers know about the development process.

Are you actually gonna give me some proof that balancing is really a priority? Because I'll give you some that shows it isn't.

The torid and Ogris were introduced in update 8. Back in May, 2013. That would mean that, it's taken 15 months for them to finally address some of their issues. I'm no game developer, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't take more than a year to fix a pair of weapons!

I really, really want DE to take a serious look at the different weapons and warframes and balance them, and I know the devs are human, and they can't do this by themselves, but seriously, take a good look at some notorious balance issues and see how long it took to fix them. Longer than a year to fix a couple of weapons? Are you kidding?

[vaugahn]

Are you actually gonna give me some proof that balancing is really a priority? Because I'll give you some that shows it isn't.

The torid and Ogris were introduced in update 8. Back in May, 2013. That would mean that, it's taken 15 months for them to finally address some of their issues. I'm no game developer, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't take more than a year to fix a pair of weapons!

I really, really want DE to take a serious look at the different weapons and warframes and balance them, and I know the devs are human, and they can't do this by themselves, but seriously, take a good look at some notorious balance issues and see how long it took to fix them. Longer than a year to fix a couple of weapons? Are you kidding?

 

Balancing can only be properly done when all weapons are present to be balanced against each other. This game isn't even feature complete yet, so balancing cannot really be approached. 

 

So yes, you're correct. Balancing isn't a priority right now. However, complaining about the lack of balance in a game this unfinished is not getting you anywhere.

[Wurdyburd]

Since this thread is primarily "hm yes, I agree, Torid is bad needs buff, quite so" I'm going to break the mold a bit and actually offer an alternative,

 

DE's quite aware of the danger/usefulness of AoE gas clouds; after all, they did just release the Mutalist Osprey that had the player base fuming for a month before decreasing the damage. Why is it then that they make enemies' use of gas so deadly, while the Torid has an AoE equivalent to getting hit by a water balloon?
To remedy this, I suggest a slight buff to the damage, but also give a massive boost to the range of it's AoE. Make it a charge weapon, that has an increased AoE at the peak of it's charge. It's almost 100% a defensive weapon, and used for crowd control, but since the clouds it releases are so puny, many enemies just run straight through without even taking damage. DE could argue that as a CC weapon, you simply place it's projectiles along an enemy route, so that they'll take damage as the enter the area. But, as is so often the case with AoE weapons, the only enemy to let you do this are Infested. Grineer and Corpus will simply hide behind a box, some distance away, and never make their way through the pinchpoint that you've trapped.

If Torid had a variable AoE, and at full charge granted it a considerable area of coverage, it wouldn't matter as much that it's damage is negligible, because instead of enemies only taking maximum 3 ticks of damage, they may take as many as 12-24, simply for being in the area.

Whether or not you make multiple clouds stack damage is up to DE, but regardless of that, an increase in cloud duration beyond it's laughable 4-6 seconds will mean that players can lay down ground cover with the torid, then switch to their secondary and attack while the cloud's timer is winding down. Clock hits 0, switch weapons, reapply, switch weapons, help team, and repeat.

 

Even if the torid was a solely defensive weapon, these changes would make it good for SOMETHING again.

[sambarpowder]

Balancing can only be properly done when all weapons are present to be balanced against each other. This game isn't even feature complete yet, so balancing cannot really be approached. 

 

So yes, you're correct. Balancing isn't a priority right now. However, complaining about the lack of balance in a game this unfinished is not getting you anywhere.

DE has reached a point in its development where new features are taking the place of content. Warframe will likely stay feature-incomplete for years to come, simply because once DE stops adding new features players will realize that all else they are capable of adding to the game is just dozens and dozens of variations on the same grind.

 

So they've got to do it now, or pretty much never.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Crossflip

[WhisperByte]

Balancing can only be properly done when all weapons are present to be balanced against each other.

Actually it can. If DEvs properly define tiers and baselines and balance existing weapons according to those rules they can then rebalance every new weapon within a week of it's release because we, the community, would be able to provide ACCURATE and INFORMED feedback because we would have all the info we need (instead of trying to guess what's the intended power level of the weapon based on our gut feeling)

[fatpig84]

It is expected that DE will balance out PVP first because Dark sector pvp IS important.

Other things can take a back seat until those are done.

[Monolake]

I suspect they simply don't have anyone working on balance.  Its just Scott, and he seems busy with lots of other stuff, like new additions. That's why we get obviously needed changes half a year late, while they could be done in a week, and sometimes they are poorly calculated like if done in a hurry. 

If only there was a person working on the balance. 

I mean Nyx Bolts?  Will they become non-useless in 2016? 

[Seanjuju]

Actually it can. If DEvs properly define tiers and baselines and balance existing weapons according to those rules they can then rebalance every new weapon within a week of it's release because we, the community, would be able to provide ACCURATE and INFORMED feedback because we would have all the info we need (instead of trying to guess what's the intended power level of the weapon based on our gut feeling)

This would require the use of the mastery system which is already in severe need of reform. DE has said in the past that mastery requirements would act as a tier system for weapons other than primes. This system was never realized.

[Azawarau]

Id say

 

Increase the mount of damage clouds can do and/or increase their duration

 

Also allow Access to Firestorm