When Serration,hornet Strike And Multishot Will Be Finally Removed Or Revamped?

[ArgonTheFox]

Rather then removing them, we could avoid the QQ of the community who invested cores/cash into these mods, and just add allocated slots for said mods. That way, we still have all 10 mod slots for our frames. (6 if you discount the Skills), and a separate set of slots for Vitality/Redirection so they're not clogging up space for other mods that could be contributing to your build.

[KiteoHatto]

Basically, a False choice occurs when no one uses the mod OR when everybody uses it.

 

So that's like saying crimson dervish needs to be removed because every dakra prime player wants it/after it.

 

Really doubt anything is going to be done regarding essential damage mods anytime soon, damage 2.0 happened fairly recently, so if anything were to happen to direct damage mods then it would be damage 3.0 or something equally big.

Edited August 12, 2014 by kiteohatto

[Vastaren]

Bear in mind I'm only MR11 with probably less experience playing than you are, so this might seem a bit thick, but are the Angstrum/Penta/Ogris trio the only weapons capable of lasting people into wave 100+? Would the rewards at those levels still outweigh the risks associated with continuous scaling? Is this necessarily related to the thread?

 

Whether the mods combination's giving intended or unintended effects, it is how the mod system works as it should. ...really, it's not the mod or mod system that's broken... it's the player!!

Problem is, the mod system isn't working as it should - namely, to augment gameplay in a way that doesn't detract from it. Intended or unintended, serration and such are mods which trivialise Warframe into a game of numbers, so I don't necessarily see how your analogy applies to the discussion. Players aren't the problem for having an opinion. No-one's basing their contributions over the fact that they can't or aren't able to do something other than get the mod system reviewed. The OP is quite clearly stating that these mods are limiting build diversity by being so essential, yet so overpowered. I don't see anything in that which implies that the player is broken, rather, that mod system needs to be revised for the sake of 'build diversity' and more broadly, core gameplay remaining relevant to success in 100+ wave missions or whatever other situation.

[STRATA-Vathar]

Well, "clogging" is part of the challenge when building a frame, which is why NOT putting redirection/vitality is a valid choice. Baiscally, you ask yourself "Is it worth it to sacrifice pure EHP to put more ability base cards or other gimmicks". The beauty of it is that the answer CAN be yes or no. Which means putting vitality or not is still a real choice.

 

On the other hand, ask yourself "is it worth to sacrifice 100-160% base damage to put something else?" and you realize that opting out of using serration is not really an option.

[STRATA-Vathar]

So that's like saying crimson dervish needs to be removed because every dakra prime player wants it/after it.

 

Stances are different, not all weapons have two, and they have different rarity. I could accept that a rare mod performs better than an uncommon one to fulfill a similar purpose (within reason).

 

Think about one stance weapons... they are also false choices in the sense that you either have the mod and use it or not, but DE can always release additional stances (kudos to the animators by the way, they are by large a category of artists neglected by the community, but they can make or break a game of this kind).

[ashrah]

mods are fine...who wish to play counter strike he was miss game^^

[KiteoHatto]

Well, i can sorta agree and disagree here. On one hand you KNOW that at higher waves you NEED serration/split chamber/multishot...etc to kill things, so you just end up having them in all your guns.

 

On the other hand, there are so many cool mods that i can't really use unless im just doing a low level area(say mercury-venus/mars) such as:

-punch through mods for a rifle

-impact/puncture/slash mods

-fire rate

-hush

 

At the end of the day every "pro build" is just slap on 3 damage mods+2 elemental(if wep has high status then slap event mods on)+additional elemental for secondary type and then go with "a bane card", ofcourse forma as you go to fit all that in. It kills variety for me, i wish there were ways to make some unused mods viable.

[Vastaren]

False choice is the issue here. In exactly the same way some totally underpowered mods are seen once in a Blue moon, serration is also a false choice, as you don't really run a weapon without equipping it, unless it's freshly formaed or you're gimping your setup on purpose to go play with young Tenno that you just recruited.

 

Basically, a False choice occurs when no one uses the mod OR when everybody uses it.

 

Most other mods affect a specific aspect of your weapon and may not be desirable on every build, possibly because the weapon has a poor secondary and it is hardly worth buffing it, and these are real choices, but i don't see many situations where it is not worth to apply a 100%+ buff to base damage ...

 

For the record, I don't MIND having it here, I just slot it as soon as possible and don't lose sleep over it. But if it were to be shifted to a built-in weapon stat, I wouldn't shed a tear either.

Yep, I agree. I think you've outlined the point but skirted past saying it explicitly. A false choice is an option that isn't really a choice at all, rather provokes a reflex judgement than careful consideration in either direction, would be my generalised and entirely too wordy definition. And you're right. Serration, Hornet Strike, etc are false choices, as are Hush, Ammo Drum, etc. The mod system - and others - simply doesn't leave the player much room for careful consideration given the focus on numbers over gameplay.

 

There's no reason to take +100% noise reduction for the sake of stealth when for the equivalent amount of mod points, one could net a +30% damage modifier. The numbers seem that far apart, but that's just how ridiculous the situation is, and how tightly players are being funneled towards damage over everything else, given that's a Rank 1 Serration mod. Of course it's worth it to apply a +100% base damage mod!

 

My (our, apparently) problem's with the fact that it's presented as a false choice to players. Who wouldn't take it? I totally understand where they're coming from, too. Because of this, it does limit the amount of options people can have with the 7 other slots (which adds up when we consider Split Chamber, Shred, etc). The mod, quite simply, is a glaring problem with the current modding system. But here's where we disagree:

1. You want the damage increases to stay, and also add build options through way of making the increases innate to weapon level. I personally see this as reinforcing the number race that players participate in when building weapons.

2. I want the mod to be scaled back so that players have an actual choice when trying to decide between Serration and Hush, or Serration and Ammo Drum such that damage-per-round and damage-per-second aren't outweighed by other, more 'utility-based' stats.

 

Neither approaches are 'wrong' or 'right', and we probably will never agree on which course of action to take, but hopefully having that distinction makes it clear for anyone reading.

[STRATA-Vathar]

That's interesting. I can understand the "cool" factor of punch through mods, silencer mods, even zoom enhancers and other cool features that affect gameplay, but I have to admit that I'm missing the point when it comes to "lesser" damage mods.

 

I could understand if you were telling me "I wanted to go for a sneaky sniper run with hush, zoom an punch through and had to sacrifice damage to do this build", since you would trade damage for gameplay features.

 

BUT

 

I can't really picture someone saying "I wanted to do more impact damage, so I gimped my build and replaced a damage mod with a lesser one" as I couldn't really see how this would be more fun for someone (to each his own though, mod your gun as you see fit) to trade damage for ... less damage.

[degrida]

What if we mix it with the old "random buff" system that existed during the early days of warframe? You can expand the web of buffs by formaing your weapon or warframe. 

[KiteoHatto]

snip

Well, i actually have impact boost on sobek when im farming for gallium or something. Slash damage on flux so i can cut things and use a nekros. Puncture...not so much. But these are just "fun and satisfaction" mods, not "min-max" serious business ones, which is a shame.

[Alphafox]

This thread is R tard ed. If the weapons and frames are to op try going past wave 20 with no damage mods. You whiners already took my penta and ogris down, really 20 ammo stock. I think most of the. Warframe players who want serration,etc gone should play something else.

You don't even understand the point of the thread if this is what you think. I'm not asking for them to be removed, i'm asking them to be added to guns. A vet like me w/o Serration,Hornet Strike maxed? Please..

Edited August 12, 2014 by Alphafox

[STRATA-Vathar]

1. You want the damage increases to stay, and also add build options through way of making the increases innate to weapon level. I personally see this as reinforcing the number race that players participate in when building weapons.

2. I want the mod to be scaled back so that players have an actual choice when trying to decide between Serration and Hush, or Serration and Ammo Drum such that damage-per-round and damage-per-second aren't outweighed by other, more 'utility-based' stats.

 

Neither approaches are 'wrong' or 'right', and we probably will never agree on which course of action to take, but hopefully having that distinction makes it clear for anyone reading.

 

For the record, I'm a fairly adaptable fellow and as long as I have fun, everything goes. just posting here during a slow day :)

 

Mod scaled down to a level where other mods become competitive with it and slotting it is no longer a no-brainer would actually be a great choice, but THEN the community would really go up in flames as it would effectively nerf a mod that takes ages to max.

[STRATA-Vathar]

Well, i actually have impact boost on sobek when im farming for gallium or something. Slash damage on flux so i can cut things and use a nekros. Puncture...not so much. But these are just "fun and satisfaction" mods, not "min-max" serious business ones, which is a shame.

 

Whatever floats your boat :)

 

"fun and satisfaction" seldom mis with "min-max" I'm afraid. I'm ok if a game requires some amount of min-maxing to reach real tough end game content, as long as intermediate offers reasonably fun stuff and possible variations.

 

I haven't played Diablo lately, but Blizzard always tried to make it possible to use more than one cookie cutter build even at higher difficulties (they didn't always succeed though). warframe has 20-ish frames, dozens of weapons with really different mechanics and build options via mods to deal with. Balancing all this is easier said than done.

[Adaptor-Face]

vitality and redirection is fine as they are, they open for the option : pure damage no tanky ness, or tanky with less damage, and everything in between. "Removing" these would would limit useful build creativeness (atleast for me, as i do not use maxed vitality or redirection mods on any of my frames, some frames have only one of them equipped)

 

but Serration, Point Blank and Hornet Strike on the other hand, they need some rework. IMHO they should add a clip capacity reduction on them, so they justify the use of more "useless" mods. but i do feel like Point Blank is fine, since its only has 5 ranks (90% damage boost), and shotguns are not really that great overall

Edited August 12, 2014 by Adaptor-Face

[MDRLOz]

We do not need to remove. We need to improve them and give them some option and trade off. Those mods do fill an important role in progression. However what they don't give, as the OP suggested, is choice; only an illusion of choice. 

 

A perfect solution for this is not to remove them but add the ability to vary them to make them do other things as suggested by the wonderful Notionphil in his thread: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/258265-forget-skill-trees-we-need-better-mods/

 

And to draw people interest in I will post the image example of some possibilities from that thread:

 

 

Go read the thread. Its good! 

[Niryco]

Seriously why are they even in the game? They ''waste'' a mod and they are pretty much the one of the things that stop build diversity to be possible right now. Remove them and add the stat directly to the weapons and frames.

For the people who invested in them (I'm one of them too) give them a new mod (That is not exclusive) or give them a legendary core.

What we have right now is the illusion of choice. No one would take Fast hands,Ammo drum,etc. You think you have a choice because of those 8 mods slots. Sadly your selection is reduced at 6 mods.

 

Why are they still there?

 

Edit:Clarity 

Edit: Illusion of choice

 

Although i am going to spark some hopes, i hope that these hopes are not going to be false.

 

As we speak, i have a suggestion for an upgrade tree that will co-exist and compete with the mod system, this means both trees can co-exist in harmony and at the same time both systems would compete in terms of two fields.

 

My upgrade tree which is still a work in progress possesses roughly 10^5 times more customization options at the very least but despite this the total power output will be 100% weaker or equal to the mod system. Thus the point of the mod system is for easier and freer allocation of stats followed by greater stats increases, vs the upgrade tree which has more customization options that makes everything useful, i promise you that.

 

In the suggestion itself i have done calculations ranging up to 1 page long for each weapon type to prove how my system will provide more customization. However the suggestion isn't even done despite reaching pages 40 in word document. It is that massive, there is so many new ideas, and even as of late i took the effort to balance each and every upgrade using distributions and criterias to indicate what would be the effectiveness factor for weapons and warframes.

 

It would take some time before i can post it and i have been working on it for almost 1 week straight. I just hope that i can make it soon and atleast provide a viable suggestion for the Mod system to compete and co-exist with another system, overall making customization in this game a really unique and true system that can only be found in this game and in no other.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Jacate

[Vastaren]

Omg notionphil. +1 and have my babies.

 

I totally forgot about that thread and went around thinking my idea was cool. :'(

 

... but THEN the community would really go up in flames as it would effectively nerf a mod that takes ages to max.

That would happen for both solutions, and I would laugh.

 

Although i am going to spark some hopes, i hope that these hopes are not going to be false.

I hope that I won't see too much of that word in your suggestion :O

 

Edit: To the guys below me, if you read this, please snip your quotes of that image. It's beautiful, but it's big.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Vastaren

[Alphafox]

We do not need to remove. We need to improve them and give them some option and trade off. Those mods do fill an important role in progression. However what they don't give, as the OP suggested, is choice; only an illusion of choice. 

 

A perfect solution for this is not to remove them but add the ability to vary them to make them do other things as suggested by the wonderful Notionphil in his thread: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/258265-forget-skill-trees-we-need-better-mods/

 

And to draw people interest in I will post the image example of some possibilities from that thread:

 

 

Go read the thread. Its good! 

Did already! (I wish i could change my title to be clearer) They need to be removed in their current state atleast.

[ndantony]

 

We do not need to remove. We need to improve them and give them some option and trade off. Those mods do fill an important role in progression. However what they don't give, as the OP suggested, is choice; only an illusion of choice. 

 

A perfect solution for this is not to remove them but add the ability to vary them to make them do other things as suggested by the wonderful Notionphil in his thread: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/258265-forget-skill-trees-we-need-better-mods/

 

And to draw people interest in I will post the image example of some possibilities from that thread:

 

 

Go read the thread. Its good! 

 

LOL. Yep. I want all of them. Priceless!!

[FrackingBiscuit]

My two cents:

 

Innate damage level (adding 5.5% damage to a rifle each time it ranks up gives you the equivalent of a maxed Serration at rank 30 - just a thought), maybe tweaking some mods like Ammo Drum/Mag Warp to have a bigger impact and new 5-rank damage mods that only add 5-10% damage per level.  The damage/fire rate/reload speed/mag capacity/ammo max mods would then feel more like the Warframe power mods; there would still be mods that everyone goes for but I think it wouldn't be as problematic as what it is now.

 

Or even better yet, no flat damage mods at all and add something like shooting stance/style mods.  There wouldn't be any fancy combos or channeling but they'd be a good way to get increased damage/stats and extra mod capacity for unranked weapons.  A rifle stance that adds 10% damage per level versus a stance that adds 5% damage and faster reload speed/fire rate, stances for snipers/bows, maybe using zooming in as the gunnery equivalent to channeling for adding special effects to weapons (highlighting enemies and objects like the Codex Scanner when scoped, for example).  

Edited August 12, 2014 by FrackingBiscuit

[Feallike]

A quote by DE steve:

 

"are you serious, your trying to change a system that is already working semi perfectly? Your saying there are no combination of builds that are different, but if i go look at other peoples builds on Warframe builder or the Forums i will see hundreds of builds all different from eachother."

 

Not word by word but you get the point.

 

 

Saying there are no builds other then Serration, Hornet strike, Lethal torrent, Split chamber, etc. Is absolutely 100% WRONG.

 

There are hundreds of builds that still use those mods with a combination of other mods, its not that the mods are to good, its just that other mods aren't good enough.

 

if Eagle Eyes was a 100% Accuracy buff, you would see sooooo many builds with in comboed with heavy calibre.

 

If ammo drumb was a 200% ammo increase Sniper, bow, and Launcher builds would always have it. (launchers getting ammo nerf yay.)

 

Your saying that we should remove Serration and other mods like it, but that is not the right way, we should BUFF all the USELESS mods.

 

 

Edit: I am not saying i would be angry if they changed it, they could make Serration have falloff damage and i wouldn't mine, i am just saying, saying there are no unique builds in warframe is 100% wrong.

 

Nerfing serration is not going to make Warframe any different, changing it slightly might. Though there is always those 2 upgrades in any RPG (warframe is RPGish) that everyone wants and everyone has.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Feallike

[Niryco]

I hope that I won't see too much of that word in your suggestion :O

It has roughly about 12,000 words as of this moment. About 6K is repeated because i had to prove the case of more customization options for all equipment, warframe to weapons and companions. The greatest difference comes from warframes with up to 10^20 times more customization options, so it is an order of magnitude 20 greater, or 20 more 0s than what warframes have.

 

I would have to place many spoilers, the suggestion includes balances to stats upgrades, active upgrades and how stuff like silenced fire becomes useful, weapon secondary fire options for all weapons, sights options, new elements, Direct energy weapons projectile system to compete with bullet projectile system to improve diversity, lights options, ammo types, about 80 new warframe skills(which would probably begin much later after i post the thing since it is going to be alot of brain storming.) warframes balance + active upgrades from warframes, even companions, all the descriptors for each, upgrade levels, procedures for upgrades, stats increase and a new type of focus system.

 

Though that roughly what one can expect, there would just be abit more.

[Alphafox]

A quote by DE steve:

 

"are you serious, your trying to change a system that is already working semi perfectly? Your saying there are no combination of builds that are different, but if i go look at other peoples builds on Warframe builder or the Forums i will see hundreds of builds all different from eachother."

 

Not word by word but you get the point.

 

 

Saying there are no builds other then Serration, Hornet strike, Lethal torrent, Split chamber, etc. Is absolutely 100% WRONG.

 

There are hundreds of builds that still use those mods with a combination of other mods, its not that the mods are to good, its just that other mods aren't good enough.

 

if Eagle Eyes was a 100% Accuracy buff, you would see sooooo many builds with in comboed with heavy calibre.

 

If ammo drumb was a 200% ammo increase Sniper, bow, and Launcher builds would always have it. (launchers getting ammo nerf yay.)

 

Your saying that we should remove Serration and other mods like it, but that is not the right way, we should BUFF all the USELESS mods.

We should do both. Once again there is no viable and effective builds that can work without those. Saying that there is no build without Serration,Hornet strike,Lethal torrent,Split chamber is also 100% right in a way. I mean if we implement them in the weapons how would this hurt the game?

[FrackingBiscuit]

 

 

A quote by DE steve:

 

"are you serious, your trying to change a system that is already working semi perfectly? Your saying there are no combination of builds that are different, but if i go look at other peoples builds on Warframe builder or the Forums i will see hundreds of builds all different from eachother."

 

Not word by word but you get the point.

 

 

Saying there are no builds other then Serration, Hornet strike, Lethal torrent, Split chamber, etc. Is absolutely 100% WRONG.

 

There are hundreds of builds that still use those mods with a combination of other mods, its not that the mods are to good, its just that other mods aren't good enough.

 

if Eagle Eyes was a 100% Accuracy buff, you would see sooooo many builds with in comboed with heavy calibre.

 

If ammo drumb was a 200% ammo increase Sniper, bow, and Launcher builds would always have it. (launchers getting ammo nerf yay.)

 

Your saying that we should remove Serration and other mods like it, but that is not the right way, we should BUFF all the USELESS mods.

 

 

Edit: I am not saying i would be angry if they changed it, they could make Serration have falloff damage and i wouldn't mine, i am just saying, saying there are no unique builds in warframe is 100% wrong.

 

Nerfing serration is not going to make Warframe any different, changing it slightly might. Though there is always those 2 upgrades in any RPG (warframe is RPGish) that everyone wants and everyone has.

 

I think the real issue is just that every setup uses these mods which means weapons don't really have eight mod slots; they have seven.  Even if you made all the other mods better, Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike, and Pressure Point would still be used.  Yes, we'd combo Eagle Eye and Heavy Caliber - but we'd still keep Serration.

 

It's not that there aren't any other choices at all.  There are a lot of people who say that but I don't agree.  It's just that "Do I use Serration or not?" isn't a question anybody asks.  Moving the base damage boosts off of mods entirely and putting them into a weapon's rank (or a shooting stance/aura/something like many other have suggested) would alleviate this problem and would also just be a cool change to see.

Edited August 12, 2014 by FrackingBiscuit