When Serration,hornet Strike And Multishot Will Be Finally Removed Or Revamped?

[Alphafox]

Please tell me what is currently challenging.

 

Warframe has near no skill needed. Bosses are all easily readable and simply get more bullet spongy at higher levels. 

 

Content is great, but the more it caters to the veterans, the worse it gets for new players, which are as important, if not more important, than veterans.

 

Also please back up your argument for "Mod Diversity", considering it was your original claim.

 

 

Actually, it's not player choice when the system actively funnels you towards putting Serration on a weapon by sheer virtue of the fact that it augments damage per second by a disproportionately large modifier when compared to Fast Hands or Speed Trigger or whatever. We aren't complaining for the sake of ourselves - the system itself clearly is broken by this one item. Meant to promote diversity, but in reality, limiting people through a false choice? It's not personal at all, it's inherent to the system.

 

You're absolutely correct, Lotus isn't popping up as a hologram every time we go to mod our weapons just to remind us to put Serration on. If she did, though, would anything change? Serration presents a false choice. It's entirely possible to forgo its inclusion. But realistically, it's not an option at all, and contradicts the very purpose of having a weapon you can mod in the first place.

 

But the scope of the discussion is that the mods do affect everyone, and they're pointing out problems inherent to the system, not to themselves. I think you may have missed the point of the OP and subsequent discussion.

 

But... is Flow a direct augment to everything a warframe is meant to do, including movement, weapons handling, and objective completion? Is every warframe completely dependent upon flow as a be-all-end-all mod to function viably at higher levels? Is Streamline not a fair consideration?

 

The situation is rather different for Serration. Weapons, by definition, do damage, and hence by necessity, require Serration. Can we say the same that warframes, by definition, use energy and hence by necessity, need more?

 

Another argument I've seen which I've forgotten to quote talks about how utility mods will pick up the slack for the scaling down/removal of Serration. That's great! I can imagine the situation where we have more utility mods to choose from, each of which contribute to damage, but none which present themselves as a false choice. Take Fast Hands and Mag Warp - there isn't a blanket rule regarding which one to use, really. Some weapons will benefit more from Fast Hands due to a small magazine, others from Mag Warp more due to low reload speed and large magazine. The numbers elude me, and I'm not going to argue those, but the point is that there is a genuine player decision to be made regarding these two. Can we imagine Serration fitting with any single other mod in terms of presenting a genuine choice?

To reply to your post.

Please tell me what is currently challenging.

 

Warframe has near no skill needed. Bosses are all easily readable and simply get more bullet spongy at higher levels. 

 

Content is great, but the more it caters to the veterans, the worse it gets for new players, which are as important, if not more important, than veterans.

 

Also please back up your argument for "Mod Diversity", considering it was your original claim.

He sum up everything about the so called ''Diversity'' that we ''have'' right now.

I never said that content was challenging(That's not the point of the thread right now.)I'm just saying that it's what should keep the players. Not the grinding.

Please tell me how it make things worse for new players? You level a weapon and you get rewarded for it. It's pretty much the same system with a better implimentation. Where is the problem?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Alphafox

[Arabaxus]

To reply to your post.

He sum up everything about the so called ''Diversity'' that we ''have'' right now.

I never said that content was challenging(That's not the point of the thread right now.)I'm just saying that it's what should keep the players. Not the grinding.

Please tell me how it make things worse for new players? You level a weapon and you get rewarded for it. It's pretty much the same system with a better implimentation. Where is the problem?

 

I'm talking about the content. Constant nerf-hammering and continual whining that weapons are overpowered when they are fully modded hurts the weapon for users of non fully modded weapons.

 

I've also proposed an alternative. Keeps the grind, which should be the one content gate that is disliked but must remain is just fusion cores, gives you the "diversity" that you want, since you get your 8 wanted slots for your mods. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I'm talking about the content. Constant nerf-hammering and continual whining that weapons are overpowered when they are fully modded hurts the weapon for users of non fully modded weapons.

 

I've also proposed an alternative. Keeps the grind, which should be the one content gate that is disliked but must remain is just fusion cores, gives you the "diversity" that you want, since you get your 8 wanted slots for your mods. 

The launchers were OP even without mods.

[MeduSalem]

I'm talking about the content. Constant nerf-hammering and continual whining that weapons are overpowered when they are fully modded hurts the weapon for users of non fully modded weapons.

 

How is it hurting users with non fully modded weapons when something like Serration would get slip-streamed into the weapon itself that scales up while the weapon levels up?

 

Or better yet... the Enemies could be scaled down to consider/reflect the removal of mods like Serration/Split Chamber. So basically the mods would be gone and you wouldn't feel a difference but rather we would have 8 free slots instead of 6.

 

That's technically not even a nerf but a rescaling because the difficulty would remain the same.

 

When you're able to do such a rescaling without actually changing the difficulty then you know you had a redundant gameplay part that wasn't necessary at all.

Edited August 13, 2014 by MeduSalem

[Alphafox]

The launchers were OP even without mods.

Let's not derail the thread please.

 

How is it hurting users with non fully modded weapons when something like Serration would get slip-streamed into the weapon itself that scales up while the weapon levels up?

 

Or better yet... the Enemies could be scaled down to consider/reflect the removal of mods like Serration/Split Chamber. So basically the mods would be gone and you wouldn't feel a difference but rather we would have 8 free slots instead of 6.

 

That's technically not even a nerf but a rescaling because the difficulty would remain the same.

Thanks you for pointing it out.. again..

[Arabaxus]

The launchers were OP even without mods.

 

 

How is it hurting users with non fully modded weapons when something like Serration would get slip-streamed into the weapon itself that scales up while the weapon levels up?

 

Or better yet... the Enemies could be scaled down to consider the removal of mods like Serration/Split Chamber. So basically the mods would be gone and you wouldn't feel a difference but rather we would have 8 free slots instead of 6.

 

That was part of my proposal. The "mods" are innate, but you still have to rank them up with fusion cores. Any proposal that removes the usage of fusion cores simply reinforces the idea that perhaps this is just a ruse to avoid having to rank R10 mods up.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Alphafox]

That was part of my proposal. The "mods" are innate, but you still have to rank them up with fusion cores. Any proposal that removes the usage of fusion cores simply reinforces the idea that perhaps this is just a ruse to avoid having to rank R10 mods up.

We have many other R10 mods. Only Serration,Multishots,etc is what i'm speaking of. You have many other way to ''sink'' your fusion cores.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

That was part of my proposal. The "mods" are innate, but you still have to rank them up with fusion cores. Any proposal that removes the usage of fusion cores simply reinforces the idea that perhaps this is just a ruse to avoid having to rank R10 mods up.

I suggested making the required mods part of the gun, that just levels via the gun and leaving utility mods and trade off mods, such as heavy caliber, to be used with the mod system.  Heavy Caliber is an R10 mod.

[Alphafox]

I suggested making the required mods part of the gun, that just levels via the gun and leaving utility mods and trade off mods, such as heavy caliber, to be used with the mod system.  Heavy Caliber is an R10 mod.

Valid point.

[MeduSalem]

That was part of my proposal. The "mods" are innate, but you still have to rank them up with fusion cores. Any proposal that removes the usage of fusion cores simply reinforces the idea that perhaps this is just a ruse to avoid having to rank R10 mods up.

 

Okay now I know which way the wind is blowing. You are concerned about all that friggin fusion cores that went into a redundant R10 mod and the virtually prolonged gameplay resulting out of this. People who are trying to avoid ranking that stuff to 10 will buy that stuff on the trade channel no matter what anyways because that kind of player is normally pretty impatient when it comes down to grinding stuff.

 

Also as Alphafox said... there are other R10s (Heavy Caliber f.e.) and there are possibilities for other R10s.

 

DE might as well instead of removing those mods (Serration/Hornet Strike) change them to another conditional damage mod or with trade-offs (Similar to Heavy Caliber) instead so people still have something they can work towards if they like. But at least they shouldn't be just +% damage and that's it.

 

Some might argue though that they wasted a lot of credits/cores on a trade-off mod they might not even want to use... so I guess a Legendary Core as refund works quite well. Numbs the feeling. At least it did so for many people back when they nerfed Steel Charge.

Edited August 13, 2014 by MeduSalem

[HavocNoir]

So you want to remove all of the 'required' weapon mods?

Ok, but then what about the next set of 'required' mods that people will find to maximize DPS?  Such as fire rate, punch through, magazine size....

Remove them too?

Then what about the next batch of 'required' mods that people would find that every build would use simply because they would increase dps the most?

Pretty soon we would be left with increadibly slim pickings for mods that dont really do anything all that useful (stability and zoom enhancement mainly) because they are some of the few mods that dont increase dps.

No matter what there will always be 'required' mods that everyone equips because they increase dps the most.  Just removing them and having damage scale with weapon level wont really solve all that much.

Honestly, the biggest immediate issue I see with this is that it would make formaing weapons a pain.  Unlike now where I can equip my serration on a formaed weapon at level 4 to get a decent damage boost I would be stuck with rather pathetic damage output and unable to play any fun missions while re-leveling my formaed gear...

 i dont know why the thread didnt ended here

the options you are giving alpha wont change anithing as most players want to get more damage PER BULLET and whatt give more damage per bullet than the following

1.- serations and thelikes for primary secondary and melee

2.- multishot

3.- critic rate and ccritic dmg

4.- elemantal mods which if i am not wrong there are  8 elemental mods for weapon as of now

5.- slash puncture impact damage mods

6.- fire rate

7.-punch trought

8.-reload rate

9.- amo

so far these is the ranking i see as to how to maximizes dmg per bullet

someone said it wont happen there will be more build but if you take seration like mods then the next best maximizer will take its place that is a fact in all games you can like it or not but its a fact, if you dont bileve me i played rappelz online and there the most over power characterfor 10 sec was the strider asasin like class as it evade everithing later was changet to the one who has more defense and later to the one who has the best pet,  also there is a fact that for a short time there will be a diversity in builds but once the people get used to the new ways the nest maximizer will kick in and we will have this conversation again

 

the only way i see to get ride of the maximization is to take out the damage amplifiers out of the game and only leave the functional mods such as max amo, more zoom, and the likes

as the quote said it will just be replaced, same hapen with dragon nest with the adition of final damage, if is taken out  the dps will come from critical builds or elemntal build or both, thats how it is in any game sadly

[Alphafox]

i dont know why the thread didnt ended here

the options you are giving alpha wont change anithing as most players want to get more damage PER BULLET and whatt give more damage per bullet than the following

1.- serations and thelikes for primary secondary and melee

2.- multishot

3.- critic rate and ccritic dmg

4.- elemantal mods which if i am not wrong there are 8 elemental mods for weapon as of now

5.- slash puncture impact damage mods

6.- fire rate

7.-punch trought

8.-reload rate

9.- amo

so far these is the ranking i see as to how to maximizes dmg per bullet

someone said it wont happen there will be more build but if you take seration like mods then the next best maximizer will take its place that is a fact in all games you can like it or not but its a fact, if you dont bileve me i played rappelz online and there the most over power characterfor 10 sec was the strider asasin like class as it evade everithing later was changet to the one who has more defense and later to the one who has the best pet, also there is a fact that for a short time there will be a diversity in builds but once the people get used to the new ways the nest maximizer will kick in and we will have this conversation again

the only way i see to get ride of the maximization is to take out the damage amplifiers out of the game and only leave the functional mods such as max amo, more zoom, and the likes

as the quote said it will just be replaced, same hapen with dragon nest with the adition of final damage, if is taken out the dps will come from critical builds or elemntal build or both, thats how it is in any game sadly

Many people posted valid solution on the thread,look at them!( I would like to quote them for you but it's really clunky on mobile) Edited August 13, 2014 by Alphafox

[Arabaxus]

We have many other R10 mods. Only Serration,Multishots,etc is what i'm speaking of. You have many other way to ''sink'' your fusion cores.

 

Please explain the concern for only Pistols and Rifles then.

 

I don't see anyone here mentioning melee and shotguns, which are in the same boat.

 

They are also conveniently the ones without any R10 "required" mods.

[Alphafox]

Please explain the concern for only Pistols and Rifles then.

I don't see anyone here mentioning melee and shotguns, which are in the same boat.

They are also conveniently the ones without any R10 "required" mods.

Serration is taken as the main example, but every weapon type could use that change.

Melee weapons got access to slightly more varierity right now(because of aura mods) but they still have the same problem.

Getting rid of point strike and adding all the changes everyone proposed would only augment our ability to get variety. Keep in mind the usefulness of a mod is not dictated by it's rarity but by what it actually does.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Alphafox

[SeanRubin]

Redirection is still there.

 

Must be glitched on my end then because enemies don't drop it any more for me. Not in Solo mode anyway which is all I play.

 

However, I got lucky and was able to obtain it by way of a trade.

[HavocNoir]

Many people posted valid solution on the thread,look at them!( I would like to quote them for you but it's really clunky on mobile)

and i was addressing your solution which will not get alot of builds in the log term as it would only change one poison for another, if you talk about having diferent seration with diferent values we will be in the same boat as of now why i will tell you why

taking dragon nest as an example they used a hidden poential similar to the seration with diferent stats you roll the rng and you get a random extra number attached to it in the case of dragon nest ther was the bes build as well even now heraldys whish increas stats and only one stat but the really reare ones increas just 2 stats and still you have the prefered build or the cuti cuter build with only critical as a second stat, same would happen here not soon but with time the best seration with the best second stat(ie if it have multishot modifier or somthing like that) would be the defacto.

 

other 2 sugestions that i saw were either giving damage to fire rate reload rate and so on or giving a corupted like efect to seration which seems like the most likely solution

 

another solution would be to rethink the whole damage

or as someone said limit the damage mods to 4 and the utility mods to 4

[fatpig84]

Solution is basically let weapons level up.

When your pistol is rank 30 you get 210% hornet strike.

 

Buut buut buut what about the guys who paid for serration and HS.

DE can refund people who did that with 2 to 3 legendary cores.

 

An average leg core cost 200 plat. 

2 to 3 is more than enough.

 

Case close.

But multi shot should always remains (due to the huge amount of points it cost).

HC and Mag force is fine as well.

[DeadX65]

re-ranking weapons would suck, as your built in serration and whatever else only scale with the weapons rank correct? want mod diversity, use different mods. don't try and force a mechanic change where none is needed. serration and the rest take up slots forcing stricter build choices. using forma, lets you have access to a higher power weapon during rank up as you gain enough points to pop in the damage mods.

 

so far i have seen no reason through the multitude of posts that these mods need to be made either integral or have a downside as they have one already, they take up power and slots. purely seems a case of having the cake and wanting to eat it too. making them integral would free up slots and points, letting you uberize your build even more. very roundabout way of claiming diversity and balance as your primary goals when it's actually all about more power.

 

diversity is your choice. all the mods are there, you don't HAVE to use the ones you complain about you know. and since that's the case, why try and force the game to change to do something that you can already do?

 

just because you don't like the choices doesn't mean they don't currently exist.

[fatpig84]

re-ranking weapons would suck, as your built in serration and whatever else only scale with the weapons rank correct? want mod diversity, use different mods. don't try and force a mechanic change where none is needed. serration and the rest take up slots forcing stricter build choices. using forma, lets you have access to a higher power weapon during rank up as you gain enough points to pop in the damage mods.

 

so far i have seen no reason through the multitude of posts that these mods need to be made either integral or have a downside as they have one already, they take up power and slots. purely seems a case of having the cake and wanting to eat it too. making them integral would free up slots and points, letting you uberize your build even more. very roundabout way of claiming diversity and balance as your primary goals when it's actually all about more power.

 

diversity is your choice. all the mods are there, you don't HAVE to use the ones you complain about you know. and since that's the case, why try and force the game to change to do something that you can already do?

 

just because you don't like the choices doesn't mean they don't currently exist.

 

 

Yeaaah remind me how frames gotten aura points and melee weapons get stance mod that add more points.

I forma some of this gear waay before those occur, now I have excess points on my lolki for example.

 

Oh well, that is fine I guess.

[Tsunero]

Remove good mods > people will use the next set of good mods > repeat. What you are proposing does not solve anything. Deal with it.

[izzatuw]

How can DE compensate for those who bought? They need to compensate for losing a mod and losing plat

[Dasmir]

Remove good mods > people will use the next set of good mods > repeat. What you are proposing does not solve anything. Deal with it.

 

Funny how nobody answered to this yet, people will always build around dps.

 

Dps > Utility and thats why most utility mods just plain sucks.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Dasmir

[fatpig84]

Funny how nobody answered to this yet, people will always build around dps.

 

Dps > Utility and thats why most utility mods just plain sucks.

 

Letting me squeeze a magazine size mod or reload mod bumps up my burst DPS or sustained DPS as well. Or a Bane !

I sure as hell won't be using something like zoom mods heh.

Edited August 13, 2014 by fatpig84

[Leland_Gaunt]

If they remove the few mods that are actually useful, they better buff the living S#&$ out of the enormous pool of garbage mods that are completely useless.

[Tsukinoki]

@Alphafox
As I posted in my original comment:
Your Idea would NOT increase build diversity at all.
The ONLY thing that your idea would do is change the "best" build.
That's it.
Once someone finds the next "best" build then you would be right back here complaining that there is no build diversity because in order to do well you would need the next "best" build to do anything.

And what would you do then?
Attack the next meta build?
And then just keep on repeating it and going right on down the line until like I said we only have mods like Hush, Steady Hands, and Eagle Eye and nothing actually worthwhile so that an un-modded weapon would be just as usable as a modded one?

Because that is what would happen.

I've seen it happen in other games where they take the approach your suggesting and stream-lining things like how damage increases and all that because people complained that they could only build one way.
At the end of all that people still complained that they could only build one way because one build was much more efficient than all of the others, meaning it was completely pointless to do any other build if you wanted to take on the serious content.

And its interesting that you're only bringing up the big 3, when there are mods like the "Bane" mods that are pretty much in the same boat as being "required" when you go up against the faction, and what would you do then?  Remove all of the bane mods because everyone uses them when going up against a certain faction?  Because after all that's not build diversity.
What about the elements?
After all there is no build diversity there because everyone uses the same elements against the same enemies.  There's no point in using anything else.
And don't try to claim "But they change those mods depending on the faction...they aren't required in every build", because that is BS.  Why?  Because pretty much every build uses a Bane mod.  Doesn't matter which one because they are all the same really.  Same with elements.  Every build uses them.  So that alone takes 3 to 5 mod slots (1 bane + 2 to 4 elements).
And yet you aren't complaining about those lowering build diversity or being permanent investment of slots like the big 3 are, even though they take up more slots on every build.
And please dont try to claim "But they have the dual status/element mods that they can use instead of the pure element mods!" because that would be a false choice.
If your weapon has very poor status chance the dual mods will only lower your DPS compared to the pure element mods with no real benefit.  If on the other hand your weapon has a good status chance then you'll use the dual mods because you actually get something good from it.
And regardless of which ones they go for they are still using 2-4 mod slots for elements with no diversity.  Because if you're going up against decently leveled grineer everyone will be using corrosive, which is 2 slots permanently taken up at the very least for every grineer mission.   Absolutely no diversity or real choice there....either you use the elements or you aren't dealing any real damage at all...
And please tell me again how that is any different from the base damage mods?

 

 

You keep on saying that removing those mods will increase build diversity.
It wont.
All it will do is change the builds, but it wouldn't do *anything* to increase diversity at all because almost everyone will still be using the same builds as everyone else, like they do currently.
So, please enlighten me.  How does simply changing the one build everyone uses suddenly cause build diversity?  Because everyone would still be using the same singular build.

The only way to actually increase build diversity is to add in mods with trade-offs as someone suggested earlier.
Just removing mods does *nothing* for build diversity.
Because every Brakk will still be built just like every other Brakk, every Boltor Prime would still be built just like every other Boltor Prime, etc.
But if we had mods with trade-offs that catered to different play styles, then you would see build diversity.
Because if there was a serration that granted less overall damage, but it increased damage from shots to the back of an enemy a bit more, some players would use it and others wouldn't.  They might use a serration that instead grants extra head-shot damage, or one that grants extra damage to knocked down enemies, etc.
Something like that would increase build diversity.
Your idea of removing them wouldn't.

So either stop claiming that just removing the mods will magically increase build diversity, or come up with some concrete reasons why everyone wouldn't just move to the next "best" build and therefore still have no diversity.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Tsukinoki