Coptering Discussed In Depth (Like Really In Depth) And Arguments On Why It Needs To Change.

[SmokinDevil]

^Going to have to disagree with those points. Rocket Jumping is pretty uniform. You have a rocket launcher? You can rocket jump. Did you bring a Galatine? Jat-Kittag? Sucks to be you. The spin attack is intentional, that massive momentum boost is not.

 

Let's say rocket jumping was an accidental thing. Even as an accident, it still has it's trade-offs. You inflict damage on yourself and you have one less shot. One less shot to kill a person, one less shot to take out an objective. Coptering doesn't have this. If you somehow coptered your way into a bad area you can easily copter your way out. Imagine if there was no penalty for Soldier? Why would I NOT rocket jump then? I'm faster, harder to hit and in a advantageous position.

 

You don't need to copter to cross gaps. You don't need to use a single exploit to reach any of the intended areas of the game. All can be achieve through parkour. 

 

Personally I kind of don't care for coptering. I just do it out of habit. If it's gone tomorrow oh well. 

[ZyklonBenGarrison]

^Going to have to disagree with those points. Rocket Jumping is pretty uniform. You have a rocket launcher? You can rocket jump. Did you bring a Galatine? Jat-Kittag? Sucks to be you. The spin attack is intentional, that massive momentum boost is not.

 

Let's say rocket jumping was an accidental thing. Even as an accident, it still has it's trade-offs. You inflict damage on yourself and you have one less shot. One less shot to kill a person, one less shot to take out an objective. Coptering doesn't have this. If you somehow coptered your way into a bad area you can easily copter your way out. Imagine if there was no penalty for Soldier? Why would I NOT rocket jump then? I'm faster, harder to hit and in a advantageous position.

 

You don't need to copter to cross gaps. You don't need to use a single exploit to reach any of the intended areas of the game. All can be achieve through parkour. 

 

Personally I kind of don't care for coptering. I just do it out of habit. If it's gone tomorrow oh well. 

Alright, fair enough.

 

While Coptering isn't as uniform as Rocket Jumping, you can still achieve "similar" speeds with most melee weapons (notable exceptions being heavy swords and fists). To say that the spin attack shouldn't have increased momentum would kill the point of doing a spin attack in the first place since the idea is to quickly slash through an enemy a short distance away from you before they have time to react (and is one of my favorite things to do in Warframe).

 

There actually are weapons (as you know) that allow you to Rocket Jump at will without getting hurt by the explosion (A weapon made specifically to Rocket Jump). Granted, that puts you at a significant damage penalty, but the same can be applied to a Zoren (unless it's modded properly) since there are certainly better melee weapons to kill with. Maybe I just suck at coptering, but if you copter your way into a bad situation, especially on a Corpus level (coptering through lasers), getting out can be very difficult if you're not prepared. Being too far away from your teammates to receive help and sacrificing your shield/safety/stealth to speed through a map are the current trade-offs for coptering, but I will agree the trade-offs are much less significant than what TF2 employs. That's not to say that TF2 should set the standard for trade-offs in unorthodox techniques.

 

On that last point, what I was trying to explain is this game has made parkour (almost) completely optional, hence the mention of ziplines over areas that could be jumped/coptered over. The game provides the ability to parkour, but rarely is it required to advance the level. I think coptering enhances parkour as it allows you to reach new areas when you use both coptering and parkour, but there's always instances where it's easy to just blaze through a level with Dual Zorens.

[Aure7]

Alright, fair enough.

 

While Coptering isn't as uniform as Rocket Jumping, you can still achieve "similar" speeds with most melee weapons (notable exceptions being heavy swords and fists). To say that the spin attack shouldn't have increased momentum would kill the point of doing a spin attack in the first place since the idea is to quickly slash through an enemy a short distance away from you before they have time to react (and is one of my favorite things to do in Warframe).

 

There actually are weapons (as you know) that allow you to Rocket Jump at will without getting hurt by the explosion (A weapon made specifically to Rocket Jump). Granted, that puts you at a significant damage penalty, but the same can be applied to a Zoren (unless it's modded properly) since there are certainly better melee weapons to kill with. Maybe I just suck at coptering, but if you copter your way into a bad situation, especially on a Corpus level (coptering through lasers), getting out can be very difficult if you're not prepared. Being too far away from your teammates to receive help and sacrificing your shield/safety/stealth to speed through a map are the current trade-offs for coptering, but I will agree the trade-offs are much less significant than what TF2 employs. That's not to say that TF2 should set the standard for trade-offs in unorthodox techniques.

 

On that last point, what I was trying to explain is this game has made parkour (almost) completely optional, hence the mention of ziplines over areas that could be jumped/coptered over. The game provides the ability to parkour, but rarely is it required to advance the level. I think coptering enhances parkour as it allows you to reach new areas when you use both coptering and parkour, but there's always instances where it's easy to just blaze through a level with Dual Zorens.

just wanna quickly say that "rocket jumper" and "sticky jumper" deal 0 damage. They have zero effectiveness in combat and are meant to be used in learning process or as a mobility tool. I can't see melee weapons being mobility tools in warframe yet when stats are still more or less balanced on damage, copter is just something that is left over and can unintentionally make a weapon useful. Designers didn't go "this weapon because of it's high attack rate can allow player to rush trough levels fast! I shouldn't add too much damage on it!" They are balancing for combat, not for copter.

 

Anyway I have so much on this thread to summarize as much community as possible. Personally I mostly hate only the visual side of copter and the players that can't seem to stop spamming it on basic flat areas.

[insaninater]

I agree with the parkour sentiment. If we can increase our mobility, than coptering won't be a necessity. But i think for now it's a crutch we need until the stamina system gets a much needed rework. If it were me i'd get rid of stamina entirely, one of the perks of coptering after all is that it's extremely stamina efficient. 

 

No more stamina, we can all run as much as we want, parkour options open up, everything flows more nicely.

[LukeAura]

I agree with the parkour sentiment. If we can increase our mobility, than coptering won't be a necessity. But i think for now it's a crutch we need until the stamina system gets a much needed rework.

I rathe agree with this. Especially since they've nerfed the sling effect of wallrun and most tilesets aren't vertically built up or have well built vertical sections, or even are built for wallrun slinging you're getting a lot of areas that are perfect to copter through without much resistance.  

Coptering is a crutch for a very unpolished stamina and parkour system, it can't really be removed until everything else is fixed. 

Jumping stamina balance and wall attack animations are honestly a good start though. 

[Kestral9999]

I agree with the parkour sentiment. If we can increase our mobility, than coptering won't be a necessity. But i think for now it's a crutch we need until the stamina system gets a much needed rework. If it were me i'd get rid of stamina entirely, one of the perks of coptering after all is that it's extremely stamina efficient. 

 

No more stamina, we can all run as much as we want, parkour options open up, everything flows more nicely.

Agreed.

 

What exactly IS the point of stamina? There doesn't seem to be much of a limitation for it save that when depleted you can't run for a few seconds. It seems like more of an inconvenience than anything else. It certainly doesn't affect actual gameplay much, since you never see stamina orbs dropping from enemies, nor can you purchase a Team Stamina Restore (fat lot of good that'll do ya.)

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kestral9999

[fatpig84]

Increase all warframe speeds by a factor of 1 and reduce stamina drain by 50%.

 

So Rhino goes 1.9, loki goes 2.25 by default.

[(PSN)theelix]

I enjoy debating (Read: Debating, not arguing) on whether or not Coptering should continue to exist as a game mechanic, and because of this I have tried my best to argue against the points you brought up in the OP, using a similar format.

 

I know the argument isn't perfect, mostly because it's late and I don't think I put my thoughts together well, and I probably failed to address a point being made in the OP sufficiently. Feel free to point that out and I'll try and think of something.

 

Edit: Sorry for the ant-size text. You'll have to click the image to read it.

The last thing. 

I never understood why they don't make all slide attack animations like the Nikana. You lose momentum, ALL momentum when the attack stops, yet you still go the distance during the animation. This makes it viable yet not truly copterable.

[Baerithrine]

No point comparing Warframe original feature with not-TF original feature. Go on, compare it with Quake gameplay application.

[Aure7]

No point comparing Warframe original feature with not-TF original feature. Go on, compare it with Quake gameplay application.

several people compared it to rocket jumping in tf2. It was a good starting point to start discussion. The thread is not really about comparing. I am just using rocketjumping as a resource or whatever you may call that.

[(PSN)Zeylon]

Rocket-jumping became a thing circa Team Fortress (not even Team Fortress Classic) the OG-Quake mod.  Doom maps tended to lack the verticality/physics for Rocket-jumping to ever be a practical measure.  Rocket jumping wasn't the only thing though, there was also grenade-jumping (also arose out of the TF Quake-mod).

 

Even back then they were fairly balanced though, in that screwing up would kill you, waste grenades, etc.  TF2 working it into gameplay is a callback to a prior "emergent gameplay" bit that was already balanced by virtue of how it worked.  Plenty of players gibbed themselves in failed attempts back in the day.

 

Coptering isn't even kinda balanced (neither is butt-sliding).  It also has exactly zero-skill factor.  It negates the need for a ton of mods.  DE are free to make their decisions to keep things I guess, but I can only assume that means the designers of various mods related to movement have made pointless items.  It needs to be balanced (like many other things in the game).  People that want to "Rush" as a gameplay method should be forced into making a decision to cover their frame in movement mods and use faster frames.  The fact you can copter through everything with zero skill, effort, or consideration for frame/mods isn't a "playstyle" or "skill" thing - it's just plain broken.

[Lukap99]

Rocket-jumping became a thing circa Team Fortress (not even Team Fortress Classic) the OG-Quake mod.  Doom maps tended to lack the verticality/physics for Rocket-jumping to ever be a practical measure.  Rocket jumping wasn't the only thing though, there was also grenade-jumping (also arose out of the TF Quake-mod).

 

Even back then they were fairly balanced though, in that screwing up would kill you, waste grenades, etc.  TF2 working it into gameplay is a callback to a prior "emergent gameplay" bit that was already balanced by virtue of how it worked.  Plenty of players gibbed themselves in failed attempts back in the day.

 

Coptering isn't even kinda balanced (neither is butt-sliding).  It also has exactly zero-skill factor.  It negates the need for a ton of mods.  DE are free to make their decisions to keep things I guess, but I can only assume that means the designers of various mods related to movement have made pointless items.  It needs to be balanced (like many other things in the game).  People that want to "Rush" as a gameplay method should be forced into making a decision to cover their frame in movement mods and use faster frames.  The fact you can copter through everything with zero skill, effort, or consideration for frame/mods isn't a "playstyle" or "skill" thing - it's just plain broken.

 

Devstream 36 showed that DE now thinks coptering is like skiing.

*sigh*

The wall sling mechanic is really the closest thing we've got to "emergent gameplay" that everybody thinks coptering is. Because unlike coptering it requires skill. Not to mention that every warframe can do it; it's not exclusive to weapons with a fast fire rate.

Really, I don't even think that an animation facelift will make coptering look any less clunky. At this point I'd seriously rather just let coptering be replaced by something more skill-based.

But no, the community is way to attached to the past to let anything that needs to be changed change.

F*ck, have you seen how all of us reacted to that Radial Blind experiment? Can you imagine what kind of s%itstorm changing coptering would create?

 

I think that's why DE is reluctant to do anything about coptering, it's because of us.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Lukap99

[RealPandemonium]

someone's mad about others having fun in his video game

[Lukap99]

someone's mad about others having fun in his video game

 

I'm curious, did you even bother to read the OP?

[r0ckwolf]

i hate @(*()$ coptering! it looks ridiculous and is a poor excuse for an mobility "skill", while forcing people to use only one melee weapon to pull it off at all. I´d rather see them finally overhauling the movement/parkour system so we have more apropiate "ninja" ways to get around the map. :P

[Tr1ples1xer]

i hate @(*()$ coptering! it looks ridiculous and is a poor excuse for an mobility "skill", while forcing people to use only one melee weapon to pull it off at all. I´d rather see them finally overhauling the movement/parkour system so we have more apropiate "ninja" ways to get around the map. :P

I LOVE @(*()$ coptering, it looks amazing and is the best mobility aspect of the game, and requires skill to use especially if you link it after a wall slingshot. Its the best thing ever in my 20 years of pc gaming. Only pro players can enjoy the true parkour in this game which is everything combined (wallrun, wall slingshot, butt sliding, wall melee attack AND COPTERING) yes coptering is part of the parkour. Everything goes well together, the possibilities coptering gives you are endless use it it is now a FEATURE.

 

Edited September 13, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[Suthurn]

the main reason i am pro-coptering is because otherwise many characters will be required to equip the rush mod just to keep up with the group.

 

anyone with a 1.0 sprint speed just gets left behind the fast frames without coptering. however, if they have a good coptering weapon equipped they can still keep up without being forced into the rush mod.

 

if coptering is to be fixed then run/sprint speeds should be normalized. 

 

my opinion anyways.

[Lukap99]

I LOVE @(*()$ coptering, it looks amazing and is the best mobility aspect of the game, and requires skill to use especially if you link it after a wall slingshot. Its the best thing ever in my 20 years of pc gaming. Only pro players can enjoy the true parkour in this game which is everything combined (wallrun, wall slingshot, butt sliding, wall melee attack AND COPTERING) yes coptering is part of the parkour. Everything goes well together, the possibilities coptering gives you are endless use it it is now a FEATURE.

 

"It looks amazing" is subjective. 99% of the community think that its looks clunky and out of place.

 

"It's the best thing ever in my 20 years of pc gaming."

You really don't type or act like you have 20 years of experience. I may be wrong, but you act like you're under 14. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

Also, the best thing in the past 20 years? Really?

I think you're overestimating the quality of this game. I still find it fun, but I'm afraid that it's basically "farming simulator 2014" when it comes to progression.

Your gaming experience must have been really shallow if you can't find anything more interesting that an spin attack that gives you ridiculous momentum.

What about Portal's crazy physics puzzles? What about Half Life 1 and 2 and how they're still considered one of the best FPS'es to this date?

What about Deus Ex? Bioshock?

 

And finally we have

 

"requires skill to use"

It doesn't, really. Even combining it with wall-slings is just a matter of holding a bunch of buttons in some sort of specific order.

"it is now a FEATURE."

 

Eh, even though DESteve said that it's a feature, it's really more of a band-aid for the subpar parkour in it's current state.

 

Don't know what I'm talking about? Read the OP.

Well, go on. Do it. Don't think that we don't remember that you just replied without even reading anything.

Also, didn't you say that you were just going to let this thread die? Whatever happened to that plan?

 

 

 

[RealPandemonium]

I'm curious, did you even bother to read the OP?

I already posted my reply to this thread; I was just amused at the necro.

[Lukap99]

I already posted my reply to this thread; I was just amused at the necro.

 

A necro? Huh???

Did you mean macro?

[Aure7]

I LOVE @(*()$ coptering, it looks amazing and is the best mobility aspect of the game, and requires skill to use especially if you link it after a wall slingshot. Its the best thing ever in my 20 years of pc gaming. Only pro players can enjoy the true parkour in this game which is everything combined (wallrun, wall slingshot, butt sliding, wall melee attack AND COPTERING) yes coptering is part of the parkour. Everything goes well together, the possibilities coptering gives you are endless use it it is now a FEATURE.

 

This guy...

"I'll let this thread die" you said.

 

Anyway about that vid. (I think I already said that). If you weren't so stubborn maybe you would have understood that this thread and this https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119650-parkour-has-been-ignored-for-too-long-its-the-key-element-in-making-warframe-gameplay-unique-and-fresh/ are going for that freedom of movement anyway.

[Neocyberman]

I think the issue lies in the design of coptering, parkour, and the level design/mission design not being solid altogether. 

 

Parkour is supposed to be integral to the feel of the game because it is absolutely necessary to get to certain areas. But in any other spot that the prescribed areas its very wonky because of the collision boxes not being right. Sometimes the stunt works, most of the time the result is not what you expect and not positive. Other times you pretty much fly.

 

Mission design is partially to blame because why not go fast? Why not rush to the next objective because there is no point to exploring the wider portions of the map. No point to killing the endless alerted enemies because if you wanted to farm, don't do this mission, do survival. Just get to the objective, taking your time means nothing. Its not that this doesn't fit the "ninja" mystique they are trying to cultivate. Get the thing and go is pretty much what you should be doing in a spy mission.

 

Map design hurts both of the above equally because its not conducive to wanting to parkour or explore. Hidden things in rooms are by and large worthless to anyone not going solo. Because you need to rush in order to complete things areas with large open chasms are not seen as places to stop and run on the walls, just copter over it. 

 

Finally what is to blame about coptering is that its not formalized and very random. I can definitely see it as part of the game if the length that you go was better defined and measurable and possible in more melee types. 

[Tr1ples1xer]

"It looks amazing" is subjective. 99% of the community think that its looks clunky and out of place.

 

"It's the best thing ever in my 20 years of pc gaming."

You really don't type or act like you have 20 years of experience. I may be wrong, but you act like you're under 14. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

Also, the best thing in the past 20 years? Really?

I think you're overestimating the quality of this game. I still find it fun, but I'm afraid that it's basically "farming simulator 2014" when it comes to progression.

Your gaming experience must have been really shallow if you can't find anything more interesting that an spin attack that gives you ridiculous momentum.

What about Portal's crazy physics puzzles? What about Half Life 1 and 2 and how they're still considered one of the best FPS'es to this date?

What about Deus Ex? Bioshock?

 

And finally we have

 

"requires skill to use"

It doesn't, really. Even combining it with wall-slings is just a matter of holding a bunch of buttons in some sort of specific order.

"it is now a FEATURE."

 

Eh, even though DESteve said that it's a feature, it's really more of a band-aid for the subpar parkour in it's current state.

 

Don't know what I'm talking about? Read the OP.

Well, go on. Do it. Don't think that we don't remember that you just replied without even reading anything.

Also, didn't you say that you were just going to let this thread die? Whatever happened to that plan?

Sorry I am not an english native, I have never had more fun finding shortcuts and combining all the movements possible in this game in my 20 years of PC gaming, that is true and my opinion. But I can't expect everyone to use it like I do, you really have to master the coptering and everything else to really appreciate it. I am trying to show people what is possible because walking and using stairs is boring to me, this game is all about fast paced movements and crazy action.

 

''holding a bunch of buttons in a specific order'' is not considered skills ? I'm curious to know what you consider skill ? because shooting stuff is only aiming mouse clicking a button and everygame in history is played by combining button presses. If you want to parkour like the best, you need skill period, some moves are really intricate it is not just copter, its the way you can combine everything.

 

As for reading the OP we already agreed that parkour/coptering is the key to this games success I know he doesn't want it removed, I was just replying to they guy that said it had to go, not too OP directly. If your only asking for an animation to replace dangling feets that i understand and agree It could be better implemented.

 

I'm trying to be polite here stop name calling or trying to say I'm 14 that is uncalled for.

 

DE_Steve is the main man, if he says its staying in you can bet your @$$ its staying in and I'm very glad he understands the importance of movement in this game.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[(PSN)Zeylon]

Coptering definitely needs some balance work.  It's a super-easy zero-skill method to fly across maps (especially in conjunction with butt-sliding).

 

At present, it raises definite issues with why exactly some things even exist in the game if coptering is here to stay.  Why are some frames faster than others?  Why do we have sprint speed mods?  If neither of those things are actually necessary or provide advantages compared to coptering/butt-sliding with respect to movement, then why have them?  

 

Coptering existing is fine, but it needs to be balanced against the parkour and movement system envisioned in the game, otherwise there's no point in having mods that impact sprint/slide/wall-running or picking fast frames over slow ones with respect to movement.  The "skill opinion" is dubious at best.  I've yet to meet a single person that wasn't able to copter within a minute of having explained to them.  It's not "skill-based" right now, it's just a matter of whether you've heard/read about the game-breaking movement method that utilizes a melee attack for some reason (honorable mention to the illogical butt-slide).

[APBladeX]

You got stomped on by like, 2 livestreams. It is here to stay, and is now 'officially' a feature.