Coptering Discussed In Depth (Like Really In Depth) And Arguments On Why It Needs To Change.

[Aspari]

coptering isnt a glitch with the numbers, it directly correlates to the animation speed of the weapon. Not the attack speed, but rather the animation speed. This is why a 1.0 atk speed ceramic dagger copters 50 meters and a 1.3 atk speed dual zorens copters 25 meters. so its no "glitch" its momentum

It's never been a glitch but it has been an exploit within the coding.

[Kasarian]

Initially I wanted to read through the topic but after it started to grow page after page I gave up at 3rd seeing as you bash one another for no real reason...

 

Personally I don't have or love coptering, it's just is. Seems dumb but at the same time funny, and the other way around. I find it amusing when some "hardcores" copter through the mission just to be left in dust after I fly through it using sprint/slide/wallrun/directional air attack (or whatever its name was) without even having to resort to using Novas Portal (though another reason for that is that using those at high speed is glichy as you can actually "outpace" casting and being behind just casted portal...).

 

My proposition to what already stated OP in the beginning. Remember that one stance for Axes Galatine uses? The one that has a particular spin attack? Yeah, that one. Anyone remembers what happens when you use that attack for too long? Now think about that with coptering...

[oinkah]

I copter a lot, but it annoys me that many people do it all the time and expect you to follow.

In pugs, if you only press W+Shift, you will be hopelessly left behind.

Instead you have to mash W+Shift+Space+Ctrl+E all the time to keep up. This combo is pretty demanding for basic movement.

Air melee made things slightly easier with only W+Space+E, but for horizontal movement it's inferior to coptering.

Buff to regular sprinting would be greatly appreciated.

Edited February 25, 2015 by oinkah

[Lost_Cartographer]

DE had the chance to fix coptering and all the movement hijinks when they had the chance, but they buckled beneath the outcries of people that are playing a third person shooter to do anything but shoot.  Once upon a time, they placed a cooldown on the slight speed boost entering a slide provides, and people complained about it.

 

Thing is, the whole evolution of the copter (and the obsolescence of nearly all parkour in favor of coptering) began with the very intention of overcoming two problems: perceptively slow movement sprint speeds, and stamina.  Entering into a slide of course kept some forward momentum while allowing a period of stamina regen.  So of course, in doing so, people learned that entering a slide boosted speed to lengthen the time one could spend sliding before slowing to a crawl.  Now they spam it both for the speed boost and to avoid running out of stamina.

 

Sometime later, people that really like melee are using slide attacks and realize that these attacks shoot the player forward even faster.  Someone put's two and two together, and now you have the new movement method.  Rush, Marathon, and Quick Rest are pretty much reduced to near worthless because no frame can move as fast as the copter technique would allow, and it's extremely stamina efficient.

 

Long story short, the whole thing was born from poor design choices, and an arguably poor design choice was made to keep it... due to a poor design choice.  Instead of fixing the poor design choice.

 

But that's par for the course in Warframe:  shove things in now, fix them... eventually.  Maybe.

 

I don't expect parkour 2.0 to exactly replace coptering, just make moving vertically a little more fluid.

[Aure7]

DE had the chance to fix coptering and all the movement hijinks when they had the chance, but they buckled beneath the outcries of people that are playing a third person shooter to do anything but shoot.  Once upon a time, they placed a cooldown on the slight speed boost entering a slide provides, and people complained about it.

 

Thing is, the whole evolution of the copter (and the obsolescence of nearly all parkour in favor of coptering) began with the very intention of overcoming two problems: perceptively slow movement sprint speeds, and stamina.  Entering into a slide of course kept some forward momentum while allowing a period of stamina regen.  So of course, in doing so, people learned that entering a slide boosted speed to lengthen the time one could spend sliding before slowing to a crawl.  Now they spam it both for the speed boost and to avoid running out of stamina.

 

Sometime later, people that really like melee are using slide attacks and realize that these attacks shoot the player forward even faster.  Someone put's two and two together, and now you have the new movement method.  Rush, Marathon, and Quick Rest are pretty much reduced to near worthless because no frame can move as fast as the copter technique would allow, and it's extremely stamina efficient.

 

Long story short, the whole thing was born from poor design choices, and an arguably poor design choice was made to keep it... due to a poor design choice.  Instead of fixing the poor design choice.

 

But that's par for the course in Warframe:  shove things in now, fix them... eventually.  Maybe.

 

I don't expect parkour 2.0 to exactly replace coptering, just make moving vertically a little more fluid.

did you see Glen on livestreams and how he is obsessed about coptering? He's not even being sarcastic, he keeps mentioning it over and over again. I have nothing against him as a person, but it makes me think his enthusiasm is enough alone to prevent any changes to coptering in the entire office of theirs. 

[Adder9]

It's been voiced a lot that the main reasons for coptering are stamina and slow sprint speeds.

 

That said, the two main compromise proposals I've heard are to a) give all sprint speeds a 20% buff, and b) to decouple sprinting and stamina. I like both of these and I think that these could prevent coptering from being a "necessity." It's fun the first hundred times, then it get's old. 

[Tr1ples1xer]

It's been voiced a lot that the main reasons for coptering are stamina and slow sprint speeds.

 

That said, the two main compromise proposals I've heard are to a) give all sprint speeds a 20% buff, and b) to decouple sprinting and stamina. I like both of these and I think that these could prevent coptering from being a "necessity." It's fun the first hundred times, then it get's old. 

Coptering never gets old, coptering is the reason many of us play the game, coptering is a unique move that is incredibly useful to maneuver around everywhere not just go fast in a straight line.

 

Removing coptering would be the worst thing to ever happen to this game but I feel it is already too late, parkour 2.0 ? don't like the sound of that :(

[Zirion_Bk]

coptering is the reason many of us play the game

Got any concrete proof of the amount of players that actually enjoy coptering as a mechanic and don't want it to be removed?

[Cynaris]

I dislike coptering in general, it's unnatural, it's obnoxious, and due to some weapons coptering better than others, it also splits up teams.

 

If it was up to me, I'd replace it with something that would look and feel more natural. Or hey, we already have that front flip, I like that a lot.

[Urquiora]

Coptering never gets old, coptering is the reason many of us play the game, coptering is a unique move that is incredibly useful to maneuver around everywhere not just go fast in a straight line.

 

Removing coptering would be the worst thing to ever happen to this game but I feel it is already too late, parkour 2.0 ? don't like the sound of that :(

wow, that's why you play? i'm depressed for you.

[Tr1ples1xer]

Got any concrete proof of the amount of players that actually enjoy coptering as a mechanic and don't want it to be removed?

Yes just load a game up.

 

 99% of players in game use it. 

wow, that's why you play? i'm depressed for you.

Yes it is why I play

 

 

You like walking ? Now I'm depressed for you

[Cynaris]

Yes just load a game up.

 

 99% of players in game use it. 

Because they have to if they don't want to fall behind, and people also want to get stuff done faster. Doesn't mean coptering should be the way to do it.

[Zirion_Bk]

Yes just load a game up.

 

 99% of players in game use it. 

Yes it is why I play

How is that even concrete proof? You cannot be certain that they are even enjoying it. They might as well do it out of necessity and actually hate it.

You cannot use something like that as an argument or fact in any discussion. For your own sake and for the sake of future discussions, don't say things like that and use them as facts or even arguments. Please.

[Tr1ples1xer]

How is that even concrete proof? You cannot be certain that they are even enjoying it. They might as well do it out of necessity and actually hate it.

You cannot use something like that as an argument or fact in any discussion. For your own sake and for the sake of future discussions, don't say things like that and use them as facts or even arguments. Please.

I thought seeing everyone use it and even the devs everytime they play was concrete enough. Following your logic no one could ever have any concrete proof of anything,.

[Melos-mevim]

I personally love coptering and don't find it essential for getting around maps but essential for usage in melee combat and avoiding getting hit.

I do agree it would be nice to see coptering get some better animations but I don't think anything should be done to nerf coptering. On the topic of coptering being different between different melee weapons I support this, while I know mobility wasn't intended to be a way to balance melee I feel its a good accidental one its good to see that a small low dmg but fast dagger has something it can do better than that huge galatine or that Dragon nikana, however it might be nice to see an official copter stat instead of it being tied to speed.

 

As for the topic of "balancing" coptering so its not so spamable and not the best form of locomotion, I feel several suggestions are soely directed at well nerfing coptering which goes against what they OP said when he claimed he wanted players to be able to choose what type of way of getting around they want, the suggestions ask to bring down coptering so that sprint and parkour seem more appealing, I say thats the wrong way of doing it. We should be looking at ways to make sprinting and parkour and movement abilities more viable, look in to improving them instead of trying to nerf coptering so they don't look as bad. Current parkour is bad and the tiles are also not that good for it either, its no wonder why coptering became the most common way of getting around fast when you have a messy sticky wall run system, and when often walls meant for parkour are out of the way of from where you are going in the mission, they should instead be an alternative path and also parkour needs to be better. Sprinting needs some form of momentum to be made better it needs to consume less stamina as well, its because of stamina consumption its useless. As for movement abilities on frames then the answer is bloody clear, buff those abilities make them more viable make them worth using the energy.

 

Tl;DR nerfing the usage of coptering is not the answer to making other means of getting around more viable, fixing the flaws in those other methods would be what needs to be done in order for them to be on the same level as coptering and then what style the player uses is up to their choice and playstyle.

 

one little fun side note, image that if.when DE fixes the other ways of moving, just imagine how amazing it will be to use all methods together to, using parkour, sprinting, air melee, coptering, movement abilities just all of them together imagine mastering all of it. would be insanely fun 

Edited February 25, 2015 by Melos-mevim

[Zirion_Bk]

I thought seeing everyone use it and even the devs everytime they play was concrete enough. Following your logic no one could ever have any concrete proof of anything,.

Nice try, but no. You would have concrete proof if you could gather a list of people who enjoy copter as a feature and present it to us.

You do not, and I repeat, DO NOT have concrete proof if you say "Look, people copter. Therefore they like it." because you don't take into account that maybe half of the players coptering are doing it to not get left behind and have to fend for themselves.

Even devs can be wrong at times. Them using something and possibly liking it does not equal that it is perfectly fine and balanced in the game. Currently coptering and directional melee overshadow movement abilities due to being cheaper and faster in nearly all cases, leaving them unused and the frames with a indirectly smaller kit than others.

[ThePresident777]

The Original Post via Analogy in One Sentence:  I'll trade you that supped up, illegal, drag racing jalopy you're annoying me with for this here visually stunning go cart.

 

 

In pictures:

 

 

vs.

 

 

 

 

1)  Response to the idea that coptoring is Fresh and Exploity:

 

That's no reason to get rid of coptoring.  It's a reason to season it.

 

2)  Response to the idea that coptoring visuals are inappropriate:

 

That's no reason to get rid of coptoring.  It's a reason to give it better visuals.

 

3)  Response to the idea that coptoring needs balance:

 

The purpose of coptoring is to go fast.  Making it slow, or replacing it with slow, or making it a cause for slow in another area is for S#&$ty games like Mass effect 3.  It's not for Space Ninjas.

 

4)  Response to the idea of a perfect balance where the concept stays but it becomes a feature:

 

It's coptor in name only.  It's a feature found is S#&$ty games like Mass Effect 3.  The capability to move fast is destroyed which destroys the purpose of coptoring.  It's nothing but pure nerf sanitized by words like balance.  We don't want balance.  We want purpose.  We want fast, fluid, responsive movement and this thread proposes doing away with that entirely.  We want Space Ninja.

 

5)  Consider this: http://youtu.be/TLwWAB9kFcQ?t=1m34s

 

Switch Teleport has been around for a long time.  It was originally on our testing warframe.  And I remember, ah, like back, around March, and like the weird things that you could do with it.  We kept getting QA bugs for it which are like "oh you can use switch teleport on another player and you should fix that, you should switch teleport in this way."  And our philosophy with the game and with the powers is not to hold down and kinda constrain everything because what we really want is like expressive play, for them to figure out how to use a power in a way that even Scott as a designer didn't even imagine it could be used.  .....................................

 

The same can be said about coptor.  The purpose of warframe is to go beyond expectations.  It's not to be like all the other games.  It's not about Significant Stamina.  DE tried to make Stamina Significant and it was very poorly received.  The OP proposes much the same as Significant Stamina.  It proposes making the game slow and clunky with increased stamina drain and ramp up times for sprint speed.  We don't play warframe to be held down and constrained.

Edited February 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Aure7]

I personally love coptering and don't find it essential for getting around maps but essential for usage in melee combat and avoiding getting hit.

I do agree it would be nice to see coptering get some better animations but I don't think anything should be done to nerf coptering. On the topic of coptering being different between different melee weapons I support this, while I know mobility wasn't intended to be a way to balance melee I feel its a good accidental one its good to see that a small low dmg but fast dagger has something it can do better than that huge galatine or that Dragon nikana, however it might be nice to see an official copter stat instead of it being tied to speed.

 

As for the topic of "balancing" coptering so its not so spamable and not the best form of locomotion, I feel several suggestions are soely directed at well nerfing coptering which goes against what they OP said when he claimed he wanted players to be able to choose what type of way of getting around they want, the suggestions ask to bring down coptering so that sprint and parkour seem more appealing, I say thats the wrong way of doing it. We should be looking at ways to make sprinting and parkour and movement abilities more viable, look in to improving them instead of trying to nerf coptering so they don't look as bad. Current parkour is bad and the tiles are also not that good for it either, its no wonder why coptering became the most common way of getting around fast when you have a messy sticky wall run system, and when often walls meant for parkour are out of the way of from where you are going in the mission, they should instead be an alternative path and also parkour needs to be better. Sprinting needs some form of momentum to be made better it needs to consume less stamina as well, its because of stamina consumption its useless. As for movement abilities on frames then the answer is bloody clear, buff those abilities make them more viable make them worth using the energy.

 

Tl;DR nerfing the usage of coptering is not the answer to making other means of getting around more viable, fixing the flaws in those other methods would be what needs to be done in order for them to be on the same level as coptering and then what style the player uses is up to their choice and playstyle.

 

one little fun side note, image that if.when DE fixes the other ways of moving, just imagine how amazing it will be to use all methods together to, using parkour, sprinting, air melee, coptering, movement abilities just all of them together imagine mastering all of it. would be insanely fun 

that's why I have this hue &#! thread about parkour linked in here. Changes to copter can only be made with parkour and stamina improvements.

[Melos-mevim]

that's why I have this hue ! thread about parkour linked in here. Changes to copter can only be made with parkour and stamina improvements.

 

only changes coptering really need is more appropriate animations and maybe an actual copter stat

 

as for stamina honestly it serves no real purpose and it needs to go, running out of stamina does not stop you from using your melee weapon, it does not stop you from sliding and flipping, it does not stop you from coptering, all it does is annoy players, its a useless stat a useless feature it needs to go, then parkour and sprinting mechanics can be improved and flourish 

[Tr1ples1xer]

Nice try, but no. You would have concrete proof if you could gather a list of people who enjoy copter as a feature and present it to us.

You do not, and I repeat, DO NOT have concrete proof if you say "Look, people copter. Therefore they like it." because you don't take into account that maybe half of the players coptering are doing it to not get left behind and have to fend for themselves.

Even devs can be wrong at times. Them using something and possibly liking it does not equal that it is perfectly fine and balanced in the game. Currently coptering and directional melee overshadow movement abilities due to being cheaper and faster in nearly all cases, leaving them unused and the frames with a indirectly smaller kit than others.

OK I made a poll on reddit

 

about 100 votes now

 

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=54ee53cce4b0e1cac796cfda

[Aspari]

only changes coptering really need is more appropriate animations and maybe an actual copter stat

 

as for stamina honestly it serves no real purpose and it needs to go, running out of stamina does not stop you from using your melee weapon, it does not stop you from sliding and flipping, it does not stop you from coptering, all it does is annoy players, its a useless stat a useless feature it needs to go, then parkour and sprinting mechanics can be improved and flourish 

Actually, I disagree with this even though it's a more reasonable idea than most I've seen.

 

The speed and movement efficiency is great and all but why is it attached to melee weapons? That's where things start getting stupid because then the dev team responsible for coding combat facets has to balance every single melee weapon in the game for a community-made metagame. What they should do so that people can have the same effect as coptering is something that literally screams "sci-fi." What would an example of that be? A device on the backs of the Tenno can gives them short-range forward propulsion. 

 

Problem's solved on that end if that's done. A universal gadget fulfills the role of supplementary mobility. We could fix Super Jump the same way by allowing every Warframe to charge their jumps. 

[Aspari]

OK I made a poll on reddit

 

about 100 votes now

 

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=54ee53cce4b0e1cac796cfda

The question and the answers provided are completely unacceptable. Let me help you out with that.

 

Question: Ask a question where people will be informed on what you're talking about. Believe it or not, not everyone understands what "coptering" entails.

 

Provided answers: Yes and no are not sufficient. Try this instead.

 

 - Yes, I like coptering the way it is and I do not want it changed.

 

 - Yes, I like coptering but I think it needs changes for it to be better.

 

 - No, I do not like coptering.

 

 - No, I do not like coptering and I want other mobility methods to be better.

 

 - Indifferent.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Aspari

[Adder9]

Tl;DR nerfing the usage of coptering is not the answer to making other means of getting around more viable, fixing the flaws in those other methods would be what needs to be done in order for them to be on the same level as coptering and then what style the player uses is up to their choice and playstyle.

 

one little fun side note, image that if.when DE fixes the other ways of moving, just imagine how amazing it will be to use all methods together to, using parkour, sprinting, air melee, coptering, movement abilities just all of them together imagine mastering all of it. would be insanely fun 

 

Allelujah for a rational and solution focused response. Have a +1.

 

Personally, the reasons expressed about the animations not making sense are why I don't like coptering. And, yes, like 99% of players I copter, Tr1ples1xer, because otherwise I'm only going for a digital jog if I'm with a party. I have to to keep up. When I play solo, I don't, because I don't have to. 

 

From my point of view, coptering is something that has potential to become a very potent aerial combat strategy. I'm thinking of all the ways I could take out a squad of those annoying drones with it if it were a little more usable (as in, I don't have to be a mile away to start). I accidentally coptered into a crewman once and now I see some light it coptering. It just needs to be visually appealing enough to make sense. If it does that, then it plays fair with the game's own rules/universe IMO.

 

I think the best solutions proposed thus far are an animation fix (I'm a fan of a few more turns, a little less catapulting, and legs in an archwing like position, but that's my opinion), and a sprint buff/stamina change.

[Adder9]

The question and the answers provided are completely unacceptable. Let me help you out with that.

 

Question: Ask a question where people will be informed on what you're talking about. Believe it or not, not everyone understands what "coptering" entails.

 

Provided answers: Yes and no are not sufficient. Try this instead.

 

 - Yes, I like coptering the way it is and I do not want it changed.

 

 - Yes, I like coptering but I think it needs changes for it to be better.

 

 - No, I do not like coptering.

 

 - No, I do not like coptering and I want other mobility methods to be better.

 

 - Indifferent.

Such a poll exists:

 

May I direct you here

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/386267-january-16th-community-hot-topics/

 

End all be all: 60% of players want coptering changed in some way.

[Aspari]

Such a poll exists:

 

May I direct you here

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/386267-january-16th-community-hot-topics/

 

End all be all: 60% of players want coptering changed in some way.

Ah, very good.