You Say You Want Difficulty, But You Really Want Depth

[MagnumKnight]

I havent soloed in a long time and the game being easier now i didnt think they were needed in solo play. Outside of playing areas that are several levels above yours, i never starved for ammo and this was with Loki who doesnt even have any direct damage abilities. My point also included team play which back in those days did require at least one box once in a while.

i will chose to ignore you or else i would only be drawn into an arguement that will most likely have no end insight, i will simply leave this for any good gents who would liek to take up the sword and argue with you in mystead for i have only played 97 hours and i have not a clue as to how the nervos worked, or anything else you suggested brought back in. but i was on for the whole no shield/power/health phase and i must say it wasnt much fun and i say you are daft for wanting them to take those precious gains away. my point was only to say that i have found the ammo boxes of use to me and i am sure they are of use to a few other players as well and it is for them i speak.

[inks84]

ideas:

increase fire rate of all mobs.

blocking greatly reduces incoming fire (like 60% or something and also gives reason to block)

Dodging/moving reduces incoming fire (30% or something)

create a counter attack to prevent from being locked down (constant stumbling. this happens alot mainly from infested dogs).

=)

Edited April 17, 2013 by inks84

[Aerensiniac]

Right now Warframe is probably my favorite game, but I will be one of the first to admit it isn't done.  It is coming along beautifully, but beta is beta.

 

Now, I've seen a lot of thread saying something to the effect of "Warframe is too easy!  Make it harder!"  and then every time something is added to make it harder everyone cries "Warframe is too hard, make it easier!!"

 

This cycle will continue until the end of the game's life which will be shortened if everyone keeps saying "harder" or "challenging" without actually giving either an example or some kind of direction.

 

Let me make this clear: YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE JUST HARDER, YOU WANT DEPTH AND COMPLEXITY THAT YOU HAVE TO LEARN!

 

Watch this video for a more professional wording, but it says the same thing: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

 

Trust me, you want a system with nuances that you must discover and then find out how they relate to the rest of the game.

 

You don't want enemies that hit like trucks and you only get a one-button attack.

 

+1

 

Yet at the same time i have to point out that you are also wrong: What you describe holds true once there is an average difficulty to a game, however that is not the case in warframe.

Im sorry but 4 people on the same map work exactly like a lawn mower.

Enemies have about as much chance of killing the party as grass has to kill the lawn mower.

This is not a circle jerk but a fact. Those who claim that the difficulty is fine are not cut out for this type of game, just like those who are crying rivers about the 24 hour wait after a failed test. The latest thread features a player who failed the very first test which involves about as much as "aim and spray".

 

Compared to other games Warframe is a unique thing cause here no skill newbie nabs walk around in masses, claiming that difficulty is fine.

Thing is: If you think difficulty is fine in warframe, then you have openly admitted that you fail at the game.

Nothing more and nothing less.

 

So even though i agree with you regards of depth, i also think that you are pretty god damn wrong when it comes to difficulty.

Maybe once we have left the lawn/lawn mower comparison, your post becomes more relevant.

[Mak_Gohae]

i will chose to ignore you or else i would only be drawn into an arguement that will most likely have no end insight, i will simply leave this for any good gents who would liek to take up the sword and argue with you in mystead

 

Thanks for letting us know instead of, you know, not continue to reply.....

 

 

 

for i have only played 97 hours and i have not a clue as to how the nervos worked, or anything else you suggested brought back in. but i was on for the whole no shield/power/health phase and i must say it wasnt much fun and i say you are daft for wanting them to take those precious gains away. my point was only to say that i have found the ammo boxes of use to me and i am sure they are of use to a few other players as well and it is for them i speak.

 

The no shield/health thing was only a problem because the shield/health mods drop very rarely, now that they drop like hotcakes the situation is totally different.

[HvcTerr]

Im sorry but 4 people on the same map work exactly like a lawn mower.

 With some of the newer, wider tiles, it should be less of an issue. The larger number of ranged enemies can concentrate fire better onto the smaller force, and the distance between Tenno increases making revives more problematic.

[Pappus]

You guys are getting mislead by that video. Adding a flashbang or whatever weapon to what we currently have is not more depth, just another way to kill.

 

I mean I don't really mind. You get your flashbang and even more weapons to oneshot those "bullet sponges" anyway ;)

 

Only way to go about this is making the tenno's considerably weaker or the enemies stronger. Since AI isn't that optimizeable... you get the idea.

 

As long as you can oneshot stuff there is nothing that will actually add depth.

[Pappus]

The learning curve isnt right at the moment. I see people all day modding up elements and some even not using serration and hornet strike for instance. People complaining about having 100 pages of mods. Some players online are experienced and pick things up quickly, others are slower in learning about games. At the moment there is a big gap between inexperienced players and more experienced players. I hear all day about nerf this nerf that change this change that. Really people need to be helped in some way to show them into the game in a lot smoother fashion.

 

This happened to Diablo 3. 11million or so bought the game. 10 million couldnt handle inferno in any shape or form so it was changed to be more user friendly. When this happened millions of people walked away from the game as for 2-3 months you could only play inferno in its heavily nerfed state. They intruduced multiplayer levels 1-10 but it was to late and most had left the game. I can see this happening to Warframe.

 

 

Inferno even without any nerf was not really hard. It actually real depth to it, you couldn't just smash whatever piece of equipment wherever and stomp through it. You had to really learn your class, given on your own, but it was doable with every class from day 1 forward, but what meant to be a month long progression was demanded to be done swiftly. In my book the error they made was, that the absolutely best loot would only drop in the later stages so people wanted to reach that really quickly and kept hitting their progression wall over and over again. It frustrated them, yet it was exactly what is demanded here, although the enemies just had increased stats it made them a lot deadlier, the depth was added via all those stats that suddenly had a real meaning to them. People weren't willing to learn the game.

 

So we keep it at those 2 mistakes, best items not availible until the end and the dmg & health scaling in multiplayer was way off. It encouraged soloplay, which does not turn to yield good results. You keep players, by making them play together all day long.

[Aerensiniac]

 With some of the newer, wider tiles, it should be less of an issue. The larger number of ranged enemies can concentrate fire better onto the smaller force, and the distance between Tenno increases making revives more problematic.

 

We shall see

[AXCrusnik]

+1 to op and his following posts... This game has honestly been getting tiresome with recent changes. I don't want to hold left click for 20 minutes because the boss has a billion HP while using weapons and frames = to or above the level of the boss I'm fighting.

Edited April 17, 2013 by AXCrusnik

[Ghobe]

ah, good day to you ghobe, it's a pleasure to speak with you again.for meleeing, that's entirely dependent on both the players play style, and the weapon in question thus coming out in varying and interesting results. saying meleeing conserves ammo is a true enough point to an extent... but its also at times just as time consuming as using the gun, but also much more risky if there is a large amoutn of enemies in the room.

Which that is the thing. Although the melee is more dangerous, it's "free" once you have it, unlike the ammo boxes. It's a playstyle thing, and it's perfectly ok in my mind. I invest in a good melee weapon, you invest in ammo boxes. I pay more upfront, you pay more in the long term. It's pretty surprisingly balanced. The balance starts to become foggy when you start to include ammo mods and ammo scavenger artifacts though.

 

Though to touch on the risk of melee, it's kind of knowing when to resort to it. 1-3 guys left? Melee them. Ton of guys crowding a doorway and you have a multi-hit melee weapon? Melee. Giant open room surrounded on all sides getting shot at? Clear out a side with your gun and use it for cover/resting area, then decide if melee is worth it(of course you might question how you ended up in this situation in the first place...but I think we've all experienced this at one point or another). It definitely has to think a lot more than an ammo box user.

[Aizeol]

To those that have said that the difficulty of this game is basically nill, that's my point.

 

There isn't really a challenge in any part of this game, and the fact that the "difficult" enemies are the same tactics-wise but have more health proves my point.

 

They don't encourage or force players to actually learn the mechanics of the game and how to use them more efficiently, they just teach them to buy a more powerful weapon and hold the left mouse button longer.

 

 

A truly challenging game starts out easy and encourages players to learn the ins and outs of the mechanics while the later game forces them to use the knowledge they gained because the challenges will not yield to a "face-roll" strategy.

 

That is what Warframe lacks currently, enemies that actually require strategy and teamwork.  Nervos were a step towards a good concept, but failed due more to their execution.

 

If leapers had the ability to pin a player and start damaging them like Hunters from L4D, that might work because it's a big target that doesn't have a stupid hitbox and doesn't have a lot of health.  That would require players stay together if there are enemies that can lock players down and require that their teammates actually help out.

 

That is an example of something that adds depth and encourages teamwork.  Obviously it would be removed when on solo-mode and when only one person was on a map because it would completely unplayable in single player.  Plus, this is only a single example and there are several others just waiting to be explored.

 

The health of the enemies and their damage only adds static difficulty, and this game will shine when dynamic challenges that require teamwork and knowledge and mastery of the mechanics are added.

 

This game is still in beta and therefore can be tweaked to make it better.

[HvcTerr]

That is what Warframe lacks currently, enemies that actually require strategy and teamwork.  Nervos were a step towards a good concept, but failed due more to their execution.

 

If leapers had the ability to pin a player and start damaging them like Hunters from L4D, that might work because it's a big target that doesn't have a stupid hitbox and doesn't have a lot of health.  That would require players stay together if there are enemies that can lock players down and require that their teammates actually help out.

 

If you want to go down that route then the game needs to entirely shed "Solo mode" and become designed with the expectation that every mission requires 2-4 or more players.

 

In the L4D series, it is AI teammate bots which make that work, filling in gaps within your party... and that'll be a big hurdle for Warframe. Not only does the team have fewer resources than Valve, but the types of stealth/movement/combat you expect from teammates in Warframe is substantially harder because it relies less on having perfect aim (easy for AI) and more on tricky movement through levels.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see that kind of thing, I just worry that DE might not have the resources to reach the same level of teammate-AI quality that you'd need to make it successful.

Edited April 17, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Aizeol]

HvcTerr, on 17 Apr 2013 - 1:46 PM, said:

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if you want to go down that route then the game needs to entirely shed "Solo mode" and become designed with the expectation that every mission requires 2-4 or more players.

In the L4D series, it is AI teammates are what make that work, and that'll be a big hurdle for Warframe, especially if you want teammates who don't just take the longest possible walking routes through hordes of enemies all the time.

The differences is that Warframe has a different setup than L4D (obviously).

The setup for Solo-mode, which I am referring not to when you're online and no one has joined yet but when you have actually selected solo as an option, could be that the Lotus has sent the Tenno to a map that only requires one person. This would change what kind of enemies and rooms are randomly selected.

Obviously the hurdle with this is that there isn't enough variety in the enemy types and map layouts just yet. And that is what I'm asking for. More variety instead of just a generic "this enemy is harder because all of their values are higher (hp, damage, armor)"

[Ghobe]

I think right now this game is at its best on Kappa in Sedna. Which I feel that's almost where the game should be at in mid-game, but it's still missing something. To elaborate, when a ship is fully alerted, you should be meeting the same resistance as you're getting when Lotus is hacking the databases or protecting the cryopod. However, like I said, it's still missing something. For the Grineer in particular, I suggest a new enemy type to be introduced around this same level range. Something similar to say the Patriarch from Killing Floor which had a lot of audible cues as to what he was about to do and how to avoid it. He basically had 2 audible cues to listen for, his machine gun winding up(put something between you and him, else you're swiss cheese), and the other was his infamous "one in the pipe" where you had to get out of the area and like right now(otherwise, high speed rocket coming right at you with one hell of an aoe, and beyond normal difficulty it was a one shot, mind you 3 more difficulties above that). He also had the ability to turn invisible and charge you for a powerful melee hit or to run away to go heal back up before returning(max 3 times for healing). This would be an interesting enemy to have among the horde that we would be fighting at the time. Kind of like a commander on the battlefield(only better than the current "commanders" the grineer have) that should both be prioritized and avoided at the same time. Also while on the subject of Kappa, why is it that melee enemies have disappeared from the Grineer ranks at this point? And why is every melee Grineer so weak in terms of survival? I get it...they're supposed to be mobile, but you've mastered the Flameblade technology...why isn't there a "heavy unit" version of one?

 

The setup for Solo-mode, which I am referring not to when you're online and no one has joined yet but when you have actually selected solo as an option, could be that the Lotus has sent the Tenno to a map that only requires one person. This would change what kind of enemies and rooms are randomly selected.

Well they could always handle it like Nervos were handled in the aspect that the mechanic didn't work in solo play...though I'm not TOO for it...I think whether or not to force this game more towards Co-Op(which is supposed to be the big selling point of the game) is really going to come down to how popular the game becomes. If there are ALWAYS squads running EVERY mission, then forcing co-op on people towards the latter end of the game isn't really that big of a deal.

[Aizeol]

Well they could always handle it like Nervos were handled in the aspect that the mechanic didn't work in solo play...though I'm not TOO for it...I think whether or not to force this game more towards Co-Op(which is supposed to be the big selling point of the game) is really going to come down to how popular the game becomes. If there are ALWAYS squads running EVERY mission, then forcing co-op on people towards the latter end of the game isn't really that big of a deal.

 

My point though is that later on, co-op should be strongly encouraged if this really is supposed to be a cooperative PVE experience.  Now, I definitely agree is shouldn't be forced, but at the same time it shouldn't be possible to face-roll the last levels with a squad that isn't working together at all.

 

The devs have said that they want the players to play out a roll of four Tenno that decimate an entire ship worth of adversaries, but at the same time that should only mean a lack of challenge in the beginning so the players can get use to the controls.

 

Around the mid-level is when the variety starts to kick in, but at the same time the players are learning the the nuances of the combat and how effective teamwork is.

 

This leaves the end game, when online with a full squad, to not necessarily require but definitely recommend strong teamwork.  This would give clans a very strong reason to exist.  You need to coordinate for the strongest teams and the best rewards.

 

Solo-mode will always have it's place, but I think it could benefit from having its own identity.  Why would the lotus send a lone operative to an environment that may require more people and vice-versa?

 

Short answer: She wouldn't.

[Ghobe]

Solo-mode will always have it's place, but I think it could benefit from having its own identity.  Why would the lotus send a lone operative to an environment that may require more people and vice-versa?

 

Short answer: She wouldn't.

I dunno...I've been hearing "the odds were against us tenno...but we managed" quite a bit lately lol. Seems like she's not exactly against giving you suicide missions. I mean...look how many of us there are xP

 

I'm really kinda hoping that where the state of the game is right now...is only like 40% of the content, if that. Maybe everything upthrough pluto IS the early game and we don't see the game start picking up until after Sol.

[Aizeol]

I'm really kinda hoping that where the state of the game is right now...is only like 40% of the content, if that. Maybe everything upthrough pluto IS the early game and we don't see the game start picking up until after Sol.

 

I definitely agree with that.  I'm hoping that what we see now is 40% of what will be released when it is out of beta, but after it's released they will continue to make content for years to come.

 

Also, as much as I want to explore outside of the Sol system, they have said they want the "Origin" system to be polished to a mirror shine before they move on.

 

I love the idea that everything we see now is just the "early game" even all they way out to pluto and eris.  That is extremely promising.  Maybe they will add more factions that are system specific.

[Ghobe]

Also, as much as I want to explore outside of the Sol system, they have said they want the "Origin" system to be polished to a mirror shine before they move on.

Oh god....oh god....they're going to add more bloom! FUUUU-

 

On a more serious note. They did say that they will add more factions. I doubt we'll see Grineer outside of Sol, at least I would hope not to...I'm kind of sick of seeing them already and with it being their home system...we can't really expect them to be more powerful elsewhere right? Right!? If so...why haven't those more powerful units come back to stop us? Are we really that minor of a threat!? I mean I guess technically we only hit up mining stations and select ships to more or less rescue our brethren but still!

 

Honestly I'm really looking forward to enemy types that are NOT weak to armor pierce and/or Freeze. The fact that these two mods are standard on everything should be a red flag.

[HvcTerr]

Honestly I'm really looking forward to enemy types that are NOT weak to armor pierce and/or Freeze.

Infested Ancients?

[MJ12]

Infested Ancients?

 

Simultaneously weak to armor piercing AND freeze!

[Ghobe]

Infested Ancients?

It's funny because they take 100% from armor pierce and 100% from freezing.

[MagnumKnight]

Which that is the thing. Although the melee is more dangerous, it's "free" once you have it, unlike the ammo boxes. It's a playstyle thing, and it's perfectly ok in my mind. I invest in a good melee weapon, you invest in ammo boxes. I pay more upfront, you pay more in the long term. It's pretty surprisingly balanced. The balance starts to become foggy when you start to include ammo mods and ammo scavenger artifacts though.

 

Though to touch on the risk of melee, it's kind of knowing when to resort to it. 1-3 guys left? Melee them. Ton of guys crowding a doorway and you have a multi-hit melee weapon? Melee. Giant open room surrounded on all sides getting shot at? Clear out a side with your gun and use it for cover/resting area, then decide if melee is worth it(of course you might question how you ended up in this situation in the first place...but I think we've all experienced this at one point or another). It definitely has to think a lot more than an ammo box user.

true enough, but the problem is i have not invested in a really decent multihit weapon, currently im trying to work on my Fragor, and so far in higher level content areas, without proper modding, i'm finding i use it very little. any suggestions on how i can maximize its usefulness without a reflex coil? i have a fury mod on it and the brokk's hammer skin so what can i do with that set up?

[Ghobe]

true enough, but the problem is i have not invested in a really decent multihit weapon, currently im trying to work on my Fragor, and so far in higher level content areas, without proper modding, i'm finding i use it very little. any suggestions on how i can maximize its usefulness without a reflex coil? i have a fury mod on it and the brokk's hammer skin so what can i do with that set up?

The trick is learning your charge time and just how much damage you do. You want your charge to finish just as you're reaching the enemy and you want it to one shot them. I've also noticed that low ranked weapons tend to have performance issues in general(mods or not) in high level areas. It's almost like you suffer a penalty if your weapon is too low ranked against enemies exceeding a certain level difference(I walked into an area the other day with my unranked Braton hitting grineer in the face for 2 damage lol). So if your damage is still low, give it time. I would definitely invest in Killing Blow though if you've got it. Though you should still be able to kill most enemies in one hit up to Sedna before needing it. If you get overwhelmed, remember that the Fragor has the ability to knockdown everything around you with a jump smash.

I know the big thing about the Fragor is also that regular melee swings are pretty powerful too, though the charge will almost always kill on approach(the only thing it might not is a seeker and heavy units in general). If you want to follow up afterwards with it and a ranked Pressure Point mod, be my guest. Every other mod just helps it perform against Heavy Units and Bosses.

[SpartanChief1170]

I have heard a few suggestions for new types of enemies, while I agree that there should be more, evaluating the old types could also be of use.

 

I think that one of the issues with the current set is the AI reuse.

Lancers and troopers more or less use the same AI, even though their weapons call out for at least slightly different tactics.

And the sawman, flameblade, and powerfist pretty much do exactly the same things (run at you until in range, then attack) which is also similar to the infested chargers. All the ancients regardless of their type do the same thing as well, and there is little difference in the types of moa.

Giving them each their own behavior would be a good start to improving the AI.

 

I would like to see more cooperative AI tactics and mixing of enemy types. for example they did a good job of cooperative AI with the shield lancer as other nearby grineer will use them as cover.There is a lot that could be done, like when there is a heavy gunner forcing you behind cover (if you are not insta-killing it), having the other grineer try to flank you (taking indirect routes). or having the melee units go in at that point.

There could also be more spawn combinations per wave. (this could happen later and i just haven't gotten there yet) Currently a wave of enemies seems to consist of a group of basic units, a few nonbasic units(seeker/ballista..etc) and a chance of a heavy unit. They could have more than that formula for example having a couple napalm spawn with a Heavy gunner in place of a few lancer's. (could even have the napalm aim to cut off escape routes with the fire aoe)

 

In addition, I think smarter adapting AI would be a way to add a significant amount of depth to the game.

Exploring something like machine learning a bit could help in this. I don't think i have ever seen a game where the AI would learn what you were doing and find a way to counteract it. Warframe being PvE focused I think it would be a perfect place for something like that. I know it is a complex subject but there are simplistic elements that could be added to it. (like the AI "thinking" 5 of my allies have died after rushing around that corner, i shouldn't do that).

 

The interaction between the player and the AI is the CORE of any PvE game, and any variety and complexity added to it will add depth.

[HvcTerr]

It's funny because they take 100% from armor pierce and 100% from freezing.

 

If the Wiki is correct, you're wrong about the Freezing part. Ancients have a damage reduction to freezing except at their leg/arm weakpoints, and even at those spots they only take normal damage.

 

As for AP, I was misreading the page's badly-formatted data as [percent type][percent type] instead of [type percent][type percent], so they're actually resistant to Electrical and Freeze.

 

 

 

Simultaneously weak to armor piercing AND freeze!

 

Normal-or-strong to Freeze, not weak.

Edited April 17, 2013 by HvcTerr