Excal "fix" Not Good Enough

[Ryjeon]

However they fix it they need to not slap an enemy limit on it. Enemy Limited CCs are the least fun and least reliable CCs in the game. There's a reason you don't see many people playing around with a Nekros Terrify build. It works for some abilities like Bastille because it's a persistent effect, and Vauban has other tools for controlling enemies. But I would Hate Haaate it on Radial Blind. I would rather have it be limited by Line of Sight than limited by an enemies affected cap. At least then I could get around being blocked by LoS by movement and positioning, instead of having to find counterplay for "That skill is already in use," or praying to RNG that it affects the enemies I intend it to and not a bunch of shield ospreys.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ryjeon

[FitzSimmons]

You are obiviously one of the many people that don't read patch notes. The change has been temporarly reverted.

Next time could you please get your information updated before telling others to "Stop crying".

i just tried t4 ext and met 1 heavy gunner, and there was another one behind the wall near terminal for MDef mission and not affected by my blind and shot me. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by buavita

[insaninater]

RIP exaclibro.

 

I'll always remember how fun you were once. May you rest in peace.

 

On a side note, what do you want from us DE?

 

You're nerfing things seeming at random at this point. Nobody thought Excalibur was overpowered, quite the opposite, he was treated with mockery and scorn, and the only response to excal fans was a radial blind build. Now you've taken that away, and now he has no excuse. He's pathetic now, unquestionably, only a fool would bring him on any t4 mission now that blind has been nerfed.

 

So clearly this isn't in the interest of balance, or you wouldn't nerf one of the most laughed at frames in the game, so what exactly is your agenda? Can you please just tell us so we know what to expect? Are you just nerfing all the existing frames to make the new ones look good? Are you nerfing and buffing in circles to make it look like you're accomplishing things when you're not accomplishing anything? What are you trying to accomplish here, because it sure isn't balance.

 

Also, and i can't stress this enough.

 

Put. The Changes. In The Update Notes.

 

Why you feel the need to be all secretive and slimy all the sudden is beyond me, but seriously, cut it out.

[vaugahn]

Also, and i can't stress this enough.

 

Put. The Changes. In The Update Notes.

 

Why you feel the need to be all secretive and slimy all the sudden is beyond me, but seriously, cut it out.

 

You're a few hours too late on that one. Apparently the reason they weren't in the patch notes is because they didn't mean for those changes to get shipped, they reverted it and apologized. Good enough for me.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/308432-hotfix-1461/

[StinkyPygmy]

RIP exaclibro.

 

I'll always remember how fun you were once. May you rest in peace.

 

On a side note, what do you want from us DE?

 

You're nerfing things seeming at random at this point. Nobody thought Excalibur was overpowered, quite the opposite, he was treated with mockery and scorn, and the only response to excal fans was a radial blind build. Now you've taken that away, and now he has no excuse. He's pathetic now, unquestionably, only a fool would bring him on any t4 mission now that blind has been nerfed.

 

So clearly this isn't in the interest of balance, or you wouldn't nerf one of the most laughed at frames in the game, so what exactly is your agenda? Can you please just tell us so we know what to expect? Are you just nerfing all the existing frames to make the new ones look good? Are you nerfing and buffing in circles to make it look like you're accomplishing things when you're not accomplishing anything? What are you trying to accomplish here, because it sure isn't balance.

 

Also, and i can't stress this enough.

 

Put. The Changes. In The Update Notes.

 

Why you feel the need to be all secretive and slimy all the sudden is beyond me, but seriously, cut it out.

Somebody clearly hasn't been keeping up to date with the situation...

 

It wasn't in the patch notes because it was released unintentionally.

It was only supposed to stop enemies being blinded when behind walls and in other rooms etc.

Which makes perfect sense and will hardly effect the ability at all.

 

So put the breaks on the flame train.

[insaninater]

Somebody clearly hasn't been keeping up to date with the situation...

 

It wasn't in the patch notes because it was released unintentionally.

It was only supposed to stop enemies being blinded when behind walls and in other rooms etc.

Which makes perfect sense and will hardly effect the ability at all.

 

So put the breaks on the flame train.

 

So? Still a nerf, still a pretty devastating nerf. Yea it makes sense, but that's the train of thinking that actually will make this game a CoD clone, realism should never hold priority over fun or balance. It does affect the ability, because blinding enemies behind walls was a great way to disable them without putting yourself in the line of fire, now the ability can't even really be used unless you already have people shooting at you, and excal has pathetic defenses, so at higher levels you're going to get shot down before you can even cast it.

 

Put the breaks on the "everything DE does is perfect" train.

[Suthurn]

this is really just a symptom of the real problem as you get towards end-game levels.

 

the enemies do way more damage than anyone can directly handle.

damage abilities dont scale anywhere near as well as weapons with forma and mods.

 

so you get towards high level and all that matters is skills that buff weapon damage, hello molecular prime, and skills that can shut the enemies down, hello radial blind.

 

if i were them i would look at 'why' everyone feels required to use these certain tactics to get anything done.

[FitzSimmons]

this is really just a symptom of the real problem as you get towards end-game levels.

 

the enemies do way more damage than anyone can directly handle.

damage abilities dont scale anywhere near as well as weapons with forma and mods.

 

so you get towards high level and all that matters is skills that buff weapon damage, hello molecular prime, and skills that can shut the enemies down, hello radial blind.

 

if i were them i would look at 'why' everyone feels required to use these certain tactics to get anything done.

.

i use volt on high level, shock cant shut all enemies down, overload as well, but well hello electric shield + amprex. hello akstilleto with 84% status chance for radiation.

[StinkyPygmy]

So? Still a nerf, still a pretty devastating nerf. Yea it makes sense, but that's the train of thinking that actually will make this game a CoD clone, realism should never hold priority over fun or balance. It does affect the ability, because blinding enemies behind walls was a great way to disable them without putting yourself in the line of fire, now the ability can't even really be used unless you already have people shooting at you, and excal has pathetic defenses, so at higher levels you're going to get shot down before you can even cast it.

 

Put the breaks on the "everything DE does is perfect" train.

There is literally no reason to blind enemies two rooms away...

Enemies behind cover but peaking around cover (which is what they are doing 90% of the time) will also be effected.

So no, you will barely notice the change at all. They do not have to be already shooting at you.

As mentioned, they will simply have to be aware of excal or aggroed on him.

If you need to disable enemies behind walls/in other rooms then in order to get things done then I suggest reconsidering your tactics and loadout. 

 

When did I say DE does everything perfect?

Making assumptions and putting words in my mouth will get you no where.

Edited September 12, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[insaninater]

There is literally no reason to blind enemies two rooms away...

Enemies behind cover but peaking around cover (which is what they are doing 90% of the time) will also be effected.

So no, you will barely notice the change at all. They do not have to be already shooting at you.

 

When did I say DE does everything perfect?

Making assumptions and putting words in my mouth will get you no where.

 

But see, if nobody will notice the change, than the change is pointless. If your endorsement for a change is "you won't notice the change", shouldn't that act as a red flag? I mean why change it if nobody will notice? A change should only happen if it's going to positive. 

 

And actually, there is a reason to blind enemies in the next room. No longer can you blind enemies behind corners or in the next room, and last i checked infested don't peak around cover.

[StinkyPygmy]

But see, if nobody will notice the change, than the change is pointless. If your endorsement for a change is "you won't notice the change", shouldn't that act as a red flag? I mean why change it if nobody will notice? A change should only happen if it's going to positive. 

 

And actually, there is a reason to blind enemies in the next room. No longer can you blind enemies behind corners or in the next room, and last i checked infested don't peak around cover.

*Notice the change in any significant way. ie. RB wont be effected in a ability destroying level of negativity.

 

Infested don't take cover to begin with... so thats a bit of a moot point.

There is no reason to blind enemies two rooms away unless its for the lulz.

Either way, the loss of that tiny bit of arguably irrelevant functionality doesn't really ruin the effectiveness of the ability.

The long and the short of it is, the intention of the yet-to-be-shipped change to RB is to limit its almost endless range to enemies actually in the same room as you, and/or actually aware of you in the first place.

If they are in the same room as you, chances are they are very much aware of you. They don't have to be shooting at you to be effected.

Edited September 12, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

I totally love Excalibro, but guys, seriously, chill. RB is still a damn good ability.

[Wedjat_88]

*Notice the change in any significant way. ie. RB wont be effected in a ability destroying level of negativity.

 

Infested don't take cover to begin with... so thats a bit of a moot point.

There is no reason to blind enemies two rooms away unless its for the lulz.

Either way, the loss of that tiny bit of arguably irrelevant functionality doesn't really ruin the effectiveness of the ability.

The long and the short of it is, the intention of the yet-to-be-shipped change to RB is to limit its almost endless range to enemies actually in the same room as you, and/or actually aware of you in the first place.

If they are in the same room as you, chances are they are very much aware of you. They don't have to be shooting at you to be effected.

 

Exactly that. I mean, I know this game falls into Sci-Fi, but even the genre needs some realism.

[Petersheikah]

Uh, no. RB was overpowered. There's no possible justification for it to be able to affect enemies two tiles away. As long as they fix the detection and take away the enemy limit it'll be fine.

 

Maybe less overreaction?

Just watch THESE.

http://youtu.be/bH6kqz01VfY

http://youtu.be/NqflquRnqbE

[Wedjat_88]

Just watch THESE.

http://youtu.be/bH6kqz01VfY

http://youtu.be/NqflquRnqbE

 Yew, horrible.

[StinkyPygmy]

 

 

Just watch THESE.

http://youtu.be/bH6kqz01VfY

http://youtu.be/NqflquRnqbE

Its actually kind of funny how broken it was.

I believe the changes have been reverted for now though.

[Estoc]

for now 

[Eric1738]

we dont have to be afraid of RB change/nerf, as long as DE actually compensate excal with decent buffs to his other abilities. but what i am worried about is that those buffs might be too weak and not enough, then we are falling into the frost rebalance trap again.

[Void_Soldier]

Instead of arguing about whether this planned change to RB will ruin Excal as a frame, perhaps the focus could be shifted to giving DE alternative ideas about what it could be changed to that would present perhaps a different utility for it and how they would affect balance?

 

How about if it still affected everyone in the same radius, disregarding LoS due to it's inherent 'magical-ability-ness' but wore off faster per wall it passed through to affect each target and made them aware that a Tenno was around?  Not putting them into high alert or making them run for terminals as they don't know exactly where you are but actively looking for you rather than continuing with passive patrol patterns? You can almost imagine the conversation between, say, two passing Grineer guards "Hey Bob, 'sup?", "All's quiet, except I inexplicably went blind for a while a minute or two back, you haven't seen anything that could cause that have you?"

 

Or perhaps to modify the currently planned change wall cover issues are separated from any-obstacle cover issues, how about a crit chance based on inverse-distance to target? The closer they are the greater chance of scoring a 'crit' and them either being blinded for a much greater duration (providing harassed Tenno with awesome enemy-shaped cover) or causing a panic (I'm given to understand that sudden blindness can do that) where they will fire wild, perhaps weighted against shooting the Tenno to avoid making this worse than not using the ability (justified by disorientation).

 

Just a couple of ideas, in the hope that the Devs will either have already considered something similar or will do so should they read them.

 

Tl:dr Shouting at DE doesn't give them alternative ideas to consider, be creative, who knows your idea may make it into a future update

[SabreUr]

Actually having an endgame strategy is not the same thing is completely "disabling the challenge".

 

If only viable strategy is "disable the challenge", then something is broken.

 

I know what you mean. But I think the problem is that the challenge of high level content is artificial - nothing changes except for the numbers. Thus only warframes that bypass the increasing numbers are viable there. Unfortunately that also hurts the game balance itself. Well, sadly thats the way devs decided to go.

 

Under these conditions, I feel like any sort of severe reducing of RB effectiveness may only lead to reducing Excal´s tier viability. Removing a frame from popularity - what will be accomplished by that?

 

I think that the solution will never be in tweaking abilities. Its the way challenge in this game is created that should be modified. In the first place by working on enemy AI (and that could directly touch the way enemies behave when blinded so they would still be dangerous in reasonable way).

 

Yeah, I agree, more or less. We could probably argue over how modifications should be handled, but infinite scaling is currently only countered by those skills <- that is a problem IMO.

 

 

Ask the infinitely scaling system,it might have a answer for you. Those skills are a requirement to not get instagibbed. I don't know about you but I can't dodge hitscan bullets.

 

You are defending broken system because other system is broken.

 

 

Below I answer in bold.

I am all in favor of creating system that will allow enemy difficulty to scale, but if the solution is to increasing the difficulty of the game is "Give the enemy endlessly scaling armor,health,shields and damage", then what is the point of playing? What is the difference between one-shooting an enemy and whaling on it with 4 people for over 5 min to kill it, where is the skill or player enjoyment in that?

 

Aside from "oh so very funny" style of response, I have not the slightest what are you trying to say.

The difference, is that when you have shields that fill the role of survivability early on, while later on it's abilities like radial blind. If you mess up, 1 bullet will kill somebody or something(objective), you are no longer given the chance to mess up.

Consider the fact that the enemies spawn where ever they please and a rapid pace and you will understand how keeping things alive is still a challenge.

All of this is common knowledge when you regularly play vs high level enemies.

 

So, in order to "not get hit by 1 hit bullet" player (or team of them) must use great tactic of becoming invincible and/or CCing whole room, so no one will shoot this killing shot. Yeah, you are right, MLG material here, no doubt. It's like I would go to my salle and ask best fencers in my club to fight against me all vs. 1, I have one life, they have 10, but i will get special move - every time i whistle they can't move for 15 seconds, and I can attack them. And I can whistle all the time. Sounds like fun, maybe FIE will be interested in implementing such rule in next Olympic games.

I see a lot of people posting that tactics for very high level enemies on low level mobs are overkill and "too powerful". Yet instead of trying their take on a high level enemies, they are content to fight vs low level mobs and demand nerfs.

Probably because many of those players (I for sure) don't see a point in playing content, that is impossibly hard (maybe tedious would be better word) yet pose no challenge. Maybe for some players seeing enemy level: 99999999 is something that for them is confirmation of their mad skill, but if this level 99999999 enemy is incapable of harming me, this is no different than going Mercury/Terminus with my best, multiformaed gear. Former is actually more annoying, because I need to empty half of my clips into these guys before they drop.

Playing a lot does not automatically mean you ever pushed to high scores or long survivals, just like living on this planet for a long time doesn't mean that you automatically become smart and do scientific research for a living.

If you actually faced high level content I would rather you tell me your cryotic event score, or your T4 survival time. Hours played is meaningless, just like mastery rank.

 

Playing with broken skills that allow you to disable combat or make yourself invulnerable repeatedly also doesn't make you good player. And since you ask... My best score on T3 was about 40th wave, on TIV 10th or 15th, on latest event I should check, but I didn't bother going much over best reward required score. For you this will probably make me "no skill", or at least person who has no idea how hard is life on high level waves, but I don't care. With team over TS or RC I could probably go there, but I won't. Why? Because a) I am not going to praise "God of Current Meta" and start levelling frame I don't like or use builds I don't like b) As I mentioned, shooting at target that is incapable of harming me is no challenge for skill. I prefer to actually push another  few minutes without using skills that IMO are OP.  And last but not least c) sitting for 6-7 hours on one mission that won't give me even one worthwile reward is beyond waste of time. Maybe it is not for someone who wants to get to top 10 scores.

 

And one more thing, do I think nerfs are needed - yes, on many skills. But I think that they should come with very deep remake of what can we do with our frames and how we can develop and upgrade them. It should also come with remake how skills are upgraded, so it won't be "CC/Uti is a king, Damage is a joke".

[Noxraconis]

Calm down.It not just Excal "fix" its "Warframe fix".

[Estoc]

If only viable strategy is "disable the challenge", then something is broken.

 

 

Actually having an endgame strategy is not the same thing is completely "disabling the challenge".

 

Edited September 12, 2014 by Estoc

[Deidaku]

 

Beside Radial blind and Slash dash, what other skill did you see other players use on Excal? 

Super jump is incredibly useful.....

[CombatPastor]

...

 

Ask the infinitely scaling system,it might have a answer for you. Those skills are a requirement to not get instagibbed. I don't know about you but I can't dodge hitscan bullets.

 

This.

[Inmemoratus]

What is this "endgame" that you're talking about? 60+ minutes in survival on T4? lol.

 

Radial Javelin still wrecks everything up till maybe 40 minutes or so. So why do you think the only viable skill is Radial Blind?

 

"MUH NO SCALING"

 

Ok well it still wrecks everything outside of super scaled up enemies THAT DON'T EVEN HAVE BETTER LOOT TABLES.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Inmemoratus