Update Aspects Of The Game Design To Modern Standards

[Calayne]

Heh, forum seems to have had better days, but I think the posters are my favorite thus far: Very mature, very good points and very constructive.

 

Auxy, you make very good points regarding the secondary ammo. Still, though, I think the scarcity of ammunition would allow players to better appreciate that bullet-hosing enemies may not be a choice WARFRAME endorses, which may be what happens if it were unlimited, I feel. Good amount, yes, unlimited, maybe not. Except for bosses. Those Ackers-Fay are Godamned sponges.

 

However, I agree wholeheartedly with the RNG comment: This isn't poker, so relying only on the RNG to reward you makes it feel like that.

 

Haha, by the way, I play the PC version, I have -no- idea where to turn the auto-aim on! Not even sure if they did, but I sure didn't notice it! Ended up playing on pure manual orientation!

[auxy]

Haha, by the way, I play the PC version, I have -no- idea where to turn the auto-aim on! Not even sure if they did, but I sure didn't notice it! Ended up playing on pure manual orientation!

Well, I don't know the keyboard and mouse controls; I also played on PC, but I used an Xbox controller. You simply click the right stick and you'll lock on to your target. It works more or less like the 3D Zelda games' lock-on; movement becomes relative to your target, and attacks are auto-aimed. You basically have to use it for magic.

 

That said, it's way better NOT to use it for most enemies, since the number one most effective tactic in that game is dodging right past somebody, and while locked-on, you'll just roll straight into them. Haha. (´Д⊂ヽ

Edited April 18, 2013 by auxy

[Mak_Gohae]

So, I sent this in as a bug report, but I will post it here too, for posterity and feedback.

To give some context, I am a professional game designer. You have very possibly played a game I have worked on. While I post this personally, and not as a part of my team, policy is still to avoid giving away our association on the internet. Sorry!

_______

Right now, WARFRAME is a pretty cool game, with a lot of really fresh, fantastic ideas, but DigitalExtremes' history shows through in the game in a few antiquated design decisions. I'll elaborate on them individually below, but here's a guideline:

1) random ammo pickups make it easy to run out

2) separate ammo pickups are pointless

3) frequency of ammo pickups largely unrelated to enemy count

4) energy mechanic needs revision or complete elision

5) no real rewards for exploration leading to rush gameplay

6) frames need specific slots for power mods

7) unreliable melee attacks and dodgy player physics

 

 

 

1.Buy Ammo boxes.  1k and it comes with 3 charges.

 

2. They are separate to give weapons limits. If Sniper could pick up any general ammo it doesnt promote the idea of aiming for weak spots to use less ammo.

 

3. Correct.

 

4. I really dont know what is up with all this cooldown talk. Is there some sort of Cooldown Committee that puts out press release so people can fall in love with cooldowns? With a cooldown and number of enemies that are spawning now would have you running out of ammo a quarter of the way into the mission. The whole game would have to be reworked.

And if you dont want to spend energy because you want to rely on the AOE attack that is all on you. Using pull to knock down a Shock Moa out of his stomp or to knock down Heavy Grineers so you could melee them and SAVE AMMO are both very good uses of those 25 points.

 

5. Exploring areas lead to more credits which is now extremely essential to gameplay. And the possibility of Mats.

 

6. Rearranging the order of the power is ok. You can solve that now with a multi-button mouse.

 

7. Do not want lock-on in melee in this game EVER! The fact that you can move around and hit anything while running in with a charge attack is extremely useful. Auto-locking in a team game will only lead to wasted attacks continuously.

[Calayne]

As I said a moment ago, simply "conserving" ammo isn't enough sometimes. Sometimes you simply do not get the ammo type you need; other times, you're using a weapon which uses ammo too quickly to stay supplied by the random drops -- even when they're being generous with the drops.

So true. High fire-rate weapons suffer particularly, and unduely so.

 

But I think Rhoenix makes a fine point there: I think if they made the long guns stronger, side-arms weaker, then the unlimited ammo thing would appeal more: Long guns dealing most damage, melee being shortest range but medium damage and side-arm as an emergency long-range solution which has the lowest damage.

 

But I think going down this road, many balancing acts have to be considered: The damage for high-power side arms, fire-rate, making guns obsolete...

 

Also, I agree with Madotsuki: Cheesers and abusers will be found everywhere. But with a cooldown system, for those who play more for fun and excitement, a cooldown system with somewhat fast cooldown would make it more awesome.

 

1.Buy Ammo boxes. 1k and it comes with 3 charges.

 

2. They are separate to give weapons limits. If Sniper could pick up any general ammo it doesnt promote the idea of aiming for weak spots to use less ammo.

 

3. Correct.

 

4. I really dont know what is up with all this cooldown talk. Is there some sort of Cooldown Committee that puts out press release so people can fall in love with cooldowns? With a cooldown and number of enemies that are spawning now would have you running out of ammo a quarter of the way into the mission. The whole game would have to be reworked.

And if you dont want to spend energy because you want to rely on the AOE attack that is all on you. Using pull to knock down a Shock Moa out of his stomp or to knock down Heavy Grineers so you could melee them and SAVE AMMO are both very good uses of those 25 points.

 

5. Exploring areas lead to more credits which is now extremely essential to gameplay. And the possibility of Mats.

 

6. Rearranging the order of the power is ok. You can solve that now with a multi-button mouse.

 

7. Do not want lock-on in melee in this game EVER! The fact that you can move around and hit anything while running in with a charge attack is extremely useful. Auto-locking in a team game will only lead to wasted attacks continuously.

Hey, buddy, good points to quite a couple. Yes, efficient use of energy is good and all, and I like manual aim for melee, but...

Maybe you wanna read the rest of the posts? It's pretty long, but you'll read a lot of interesting stuff. Guaranteed.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Calayne

[Oz270]

I see you point and I'm not disagreeing, I had similar experiences as you a few times.

DE should rebalance the ammo drop situation or add ammo stashes to the game.

I still stand with the point of not having unlimited ammo for sidearms and unified ammo drops, since I really do think the game would become too easy in the endgame where you modded out all your gear.

Sorry for not debating points with you, I'm replying on my phone and its really not suited to long discussions.

[Ghobe]

1000 credits is a pretty good bit of cash to be paying for something you might need to replace every run. That's virtually your entire income from a solo run. I've NEVER seen ten mods in a single mission, and my frame is rank 26 (so you know I'm not a TOTAL noob.) (╹◡╹)

Honestly, I think I got 12 mods that run, it only displays 10 though. And something to keep in mind, all the credits you receive during the runs aren't included in that bonus at the end. It wouldn't surprise me if I had also gotten 2-3k from containers/enemies/lockers. And to take it a step further...I didn't even explore on that map. I'll let you have this though, that IS one of the best farming missions in the game.

 

Keep in mind that saying "60 mods" you're assuming someone is paying platinum for a supercharge item.

Wrong. Orokin reactor/catalyst blue prints can be received in game.

In L4D, the magnum was not a one-body-shot deal on horde on advanced, expert, or realism mode.

The Magnum is the most powerful pistol in Left 4 Dead 2. It has only an eight-round magazine and cannot be dual-wielded but delivers one-hit kills to Common Infected on all game modes and all difficulties.

Your memory is foggy.

 

Not only that, but you're more likely to place your shots more accurately, leading to possibly greater ammo efficiency.

What are you basing this on?

 

Remember that specializing in guns or melee doesn't require you to expend mod slots in your frame. Specializing in powers does. That's why it's not fair.

The only other real options for your frame are shields+recharge, health, sprint speed and stamina+recharge. Armor isn't nearly effective enough(since it only applies to health damage, not shield damage). Enemy radar can be used as an artifact instead of a mod(which is a point I forgot to touch on earlier to the person responding about ammo drops being an artifact). And loot radar makes me just lol. So technically, you could have high shields, health, stamina, have 4 powers, and then 3 of the energy related mods. Though it's a decision on what to get, just like with Diablo 3's skill system. You can't have it all, nor should you have it all.

[auxy]

Mak_Gohae--

I can see you did not read the thread. I understand, it's a lot to read. Allow me to reiterate a few points for you:

 

Ammo boxes are not a good solution to the problem of running out of ammo. It's a stopgap fix at best; a "patch" to something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. There are simply too many things to spend credits on; forcing the player to spend precious credits on an ammo box every mission or every few missions is just sadistic grind-enforcement.

 

I don't really understand your reply to my point about ammo type consolidation. Sniper weapons need to aim accurately so that they can kill rapidly; otherwise, they're quite weak in terms of DPS. Are you suggesting that consolidated ammo would improve sniper weapon DPS?

 

Much like another poster, I think you have the wrong impression about cooldowns. The idea is to allow you to use your powers *more*, not less. I think you misunderstand.

 

How many credits can you possibly get from lockers? Five hundred? Maybe a thousand over the course of a mission? That is not a worthwhile use of thirty minutes, where I could have completed three more missions, each worth 1000+ credits.

 

Materials are a more compelling argument, but without even trying I have an overwhelmingly ridiculous number of common materials already -- it's only the rare ones (which don't drop from supply containers) that I'm missing.

 

As far as lock-ons go, you seem to misunderstand. Don't think that I mean something like Zelda's hard-lock, which changes the dynamics of your movement and all. Simply, if you are very near an enemy, and you press the melee button, your attack should be directed toward the enemy, not beside him. In any case, it should definitely have an option to be disabled for those who do not want such a thing. (╹◡╹)

Edited April 18, 2013 by auxy

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Hey, buddy, good points to quite a couple. Yes, efficient use of energy is good and all, and I like manual aim for melee, but...

Maybe you wanna read the rest of the posts? It's pretty long, but you'll read a lot of interesting stuff. Guaranteed.

 

Well, it seems that you didnt read my post at all because i specifically reference things he explains later on.

I just quoted the first section to save space.

 

Mak_Gohae--

I can see you did not read the thread. I understand, it's a lot to read. Allow me to reiterate a few points for you:

 

And another one.... this is hilarious.

My post is not THAT long and you people are not even reading it.

HI-LARIOUS.

 

Ammo boxes are not a good solution to the problem of running out of ammo. It's a stopgap fix at best; a "patch" to something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place.

 

Your examples are soloing boss fights with Paris and Afuris. I think by the time you got to Jackal you should have known that Sniper weapon ammo is short and that the Afuris eats ammo like a madman. So those two, unless perfectly modded, should not be in boss fights alone.

 

And this is not a problem, you have 3 weapons that you have to balance to complete a stage. If you see just 2 enemies in front of you.... run up to them and slash.  This is part of the challenge of the game which really ISNT a challenge because an ammo box TOTALLY restores your ammo.

 

This ammo talk has been happening for a while and i simply do not understand the aversion to buying ammo boxes. You have 8 inventory slots to use for items you can bring into the missions.... do you simply NOT use that? Why not? It's there.

 

 

There are simply too many things to spend credits on; forcing the player to spend precious credits on an ammo box every mission or every few missions is just sadistic grind-enforcement.

 

You are supposed to manage your stuff, that is part of the game.  Dont level some mods for a few missions and your bank will really show those credits piling in. This game is not a simple shooter, the game has some RPG elements. The game has a gradual climb, each mission isnt it's own world that has to provide you with everything like in other shooters.

 

 

I don't really understand your reply to my point about ammo type consolidation. Sniper weapons need to aim accurately so that they can kill rapidly; otherwise, they're quite weak in terms of DPS. Are you suggesting that consolidated ammo would improve sniper weapon DPS?

 

They still do a lot of damage when not hitting vital spots but it takes some extra ammo to take the enemy down. If you had ammo all over the place people would not bother being accurate most of the time, the sniper weapons would just become another rifle that you aim for vital spots whenever you feel like it.

 

Much like another poster, I think you have the wrong impression about cooldowns. The idea is to allow you to use your powers *more*, not less. I think you misunderstand.

 

No, the idea you put out is that you are nervous about spending that energy because you are relying on one power for everything.

I use powers when they best fit the situation, i dont care to save energy on just one thing because of how powerful it is.  Plus there are mods that help you have more energy and cut the cost of the powers.

 

How many credits can you possibly get from lockers? Five hundred? Maybe a thousand over the course of a mission? That is not a worthwhile use of thirty minutes, where I could have completed three more missions, each worth 1000+ credits.

 

Another efficiency argument? Spare me.

I go open most to all lockers and the same with containers, i dont care how long it takes. The world isnt ending and this is just a game, what's the rush?

 

Materials are a more compelling argument, but without even trying I have an overwhelmingly ridiculous number of common materials already -- it's only the rare ones (which don't drop from supply containers) that I'm missing.

 

Rare ones do drop from lockers and containers.

 

As far as lock-ons go, you seem to misunderstand. Don't think that I mean something like Zelda's hard-lock, which changes the dynamics of your movement and all. Simply, if you are very near an enemy, and you press the melee button, your attack should be directed toward the enemy, not him. In any case, it should definitely have an option to be disabled for those who do not want such a thing. (╹◡╹)

 

If you can turn it off, fine.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[auxy]

Ahh, so frustrating that quoting isn't working properly for me!

 

Ghobe--

Well, it's my own ignorance that I did not know you can build superchargers. Still, that sort of even goes further to make my point -- that's one more thing for you to grind for. This game is grindy enough as it is. (´Д⊂ヽ

 

I see you're quoting from the Left 4 Dead wikia. From that same site:

Advanced is for more experienced players (...) Players are highly recommended to use melee weapons with an AK-47 or scoped rifles, as even with a shot with a Magnum sometimes doesn't manage to kill the Common Infected quite easily.

Yes, you can still make one-hit kills. Not to the body, however. I happen to know quite a lot about that game. (╹◡╹)

 

I based my comment on single pistols having "possibly" greater ammo efficiency on player psychology -- smaller magazine size leads one to try harder and make every shot count. I'm sure you've seen players with akimbo pistols "spam" frenetically, wasting ammo on body shots and complete misses. And, I did say "possibly". ┐(´∀｀)┌

 

Regardless of what mods are available for the frames, the simple reality is that, under your proposal, wishing to focus on powers puts you at a disadvantage there versus those who do not. (´Д⊂ヽ

[Madotsuki]

The highest number of credits i've gotten from a single locker is 200+. Average is less than 100 per locker. RNG :/ Also for materials, I would just like to mention that the "rare" resources (control module, neurodes etc.) are mostly dropped by bosses. It's not a 100% chance, but bosses do drop the rare resource of their respective planet reliably. Not that it's impossible to get a rare resource off of a regular mob or even a crate. It's one of the reasons leading to hardcore boss farming.

 

Also, since you're an actual game dev, I really want to ask your opinion on this post of mine:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30942-grineer-suggestions-for-new-units-squad-combos-better-ai-tweak-old-units/

It's a little list I made about improving the Grineer faction. BTW, how long have you been playing Warframe, and how far in are you? I really want to discuss possible Warframe improvements with you XD

 

Oh and don't mind Mak. He generally disagrees with anything involving changing the game that are suggested by players and not the devs.

[auxy]

Also, since you're an actual game dev, I really want to ask your opinion on this post of mine:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30942-grineer-suggestions-for-new-units-squad-combos-better-ai-tweak-old-units/

It's a little list I made about improving the Grineer faction. BTW, how long have you been playing Warframe, and how far in are you? I really want to discuss possible Warframe improvements with you XD

 

Oh and don't mind Mak. He generally disagrees with anything involving changing the game that are suggested by players and not the devs.

Haha! No reason to be discriminatory. I'm open to all feedback. I'm surprised at the negative reaction some folks have had to the idea of a melee soft lock. I think most of this is probably because they aren't familiar with the concept, though.

 

I replied to your thread, but I'll write another one with some more detailed feedback. (╹◡╹) Don't put too much faith in my word; it's not like I'm Notch or anyone! (ﾟ∀ﾟ)

[Madotsuki]

Ahh, so frustrating that quoting isn't working properly for me!

 

Ghobe--

Well, it's my own ignorance that I did not know you can build superchargers. Still, that sort of even goes further to make my point -- that's one more thing for you to grind for. This game is grindy enough as it is. (´Д⊂ヽ

 

I see you're quoting from the Left 4 Dead wikia. From that same site:

 

 

Yes, you can still make one-hit kills. Not to the body, however. I happen to know quite a lot about that game. (╹◡╹)

 

I based my comment on single pistols having "possibly" greater ammo efficiency on player psychology -- smaller magazine size leads one to try harder and make every shot count. I'm sure you've seen players with akimbo pistols "spam" frenetically, wasting ammo on body shots and complete misses. And, I did say "possibly". ┐(´∀｀)┌

 

Regardless of what mods are available for the frames, the simple reality is that, under your proposal, wishing to focus on powers puts you at a disadvantage there versus those who do not. (´Д⊂ヽ

Well, farming for stuff is actually a main part of most free2play games. Since the fairest business model is to have players pay for cosmetics, vanity items and convenience, it's unavoidable that certain things need to be farmed. Fortunately, potatoes (it's what we call the supercharging stuff) isn't necessarily "farmed". They come from Alert missions with a "?" reward, and thanks to the official alert Twitter and the Alert forums, as long as you keep an eye on them you can see when a potato alert appears and just do it. It's quite luck-based due to mostly random alert generation, but I consider Warframe already one of the better business models for free2play games out there now. The only thing about the business model that I disagree with is making additional Warframe and Weapon slots only purchaseable with real money.

 

And considering the L4D2 magnum. Y'know, I was pretty damn sure that the magnum insta-kills commons on any difficulty, along with the sniper rifles. There was one time i was screwing around with the console commands and made a few commons with over 9000 health. Literally. Headshots from anything are an insta-kill, melee weapons are insta-kill, snipers are insta-kills no matter where you hit them, and I was pretty sure the magnum was also an insta-kill.

[Calayne]

Well, it seems that you didnt read my post at all because i specifically reference things he explains later on.

I just quoted the first section to save space.

Haha, sorry about that then. I did read it, but perhaps I misunderstood a few points, since they were sparsely elaborated on. But still, I think he's made some very good points that would have addressed quite a few of those stated issues.

 

Well, at any rate, I hope they might implement some of the changes we've discussed: Universal ammo drops, possibly a revamped cool-down system (Maybe hastened by killing enemies), and possibility of soft-locks, ammo crates for bosses and exploration rewards!

 

Interesting that the conversation steered to L4D2, though. Wish I put in more time to it. Lack of playmates meant boring games, sadly.

 

Speaking of which: When's the next big update? :O Been waiting for that! ^^

Edited April 18, 2013 by Calayne

[MJ12]

Haha! No reason to be discriminatory. I'm open to all feedback. I'm surprised at the negative reaction some folks have had to the idea of a melee soft lock. I think most of this is probably because they aren't familiar with the concept, though.

 

I replied to your thread, but I'll write another one with some more detailed feedback. (╹◡╹) Don't put too much faith in my word; it's not like I'm Notch or anyone! (ﾟ∀ﾟ)

 

Well in theory a melee soft lock might make some attacks more difficult to aim, especially arcing multihit attacks.

 

Anyways, your points are really interesting because I've made points from game design that come from a pen and paper RPG perspective. You seem to be coming from a FPS/action game perspective.

 

I do agree that you should be able to use powers more often (although your example of Slash Dash may be flawed-Slash Dash right now seems like a fantastic 'encounter' power-i.e. use once or maybe twice in a pitched battle, versus an 'at-will' power that you can throw around everywhere, like Fireball, Shock, Decoy, Venom, and so on.)

 

The cooldown thing is, IMO, more important than that because if powers no longer share resources there's no need to balance all the powers on a single Warframe to be equally good and worthwhile. If, say, Polarize is somewhat weak, it's not a problem because you're going to want to use it anyway (due to the fact that it's there and it provides more benefit (some) than its opportunity cost (none)). Whereas in this situation if a Warframe has a power that's just 'better', you're going to exclusively use that 'better' power, at the cost of every other power.

 

Ember is the best illustration of this problem, since her three powers more or less do similar things ("I set someone on fire from far away", "I set things touching me on fire", "I set things near me on fire in a radius", and "I set things near me on fire in a radius"). In a system where powers have separate cooldowns, that's actually really useful. Why? Because it means Ember has the ability to sustain a ridiculous amount of ability-based DPS by using fireball while Overheated, then throwing out World on Fire and Fire Blast, and then repeating. In this system it means most of her abilities are redundant and thus lame.

 

On the fear of cooldowns encouraging people hiding behind boxes: Cooldowns don't have to be 'flat'. They could very well be dynamic and designed to incentivize being in combat. So, for example, a power might have a 30s cooldown by default, but every second you're taking damage or successfully evading attacks you subtract another 2s from that cooldown, and every second you're dealing damage you subtract 2s, and every kill you make subtracts 5s flat.

 

So if you kill someone and take a hit or two with the power you're already down 1/3rd of the cooldown. Kill another guy in the next second, while taking hits/dodging, and you're already down 2/3rd. Etc.

 

There are RPGs which incentivize making the game interesting by giving you mechanical rewards for playing your character well or doing cool things. I think that form of design is something you could and should steal wholesale for games wherein the spectacle of being a superhuman cyborg murder ninja (like Warframe) is part of the appeal.

Edited April 18, 2013 by MJ12

[Swifty2]

I forgot the thread which is unfortunate but someone suggested varying ways of getting energy.

I'm paraphrasing but:

A "melee" frame would gain energy every time he hit an enemy with melee

A "Gun" frame would gain energy when he kills an enemy with his gun

A "Power" frame would regen power passively.

 

power orbs may or may not be in the game.

 

I liked this idea because it gives frames themselves more variety other than starting stats and polarity.

 

Also if balanced right works well. Like Tsukinoki said cool-downs led to people just sitting around waiting for cool-downs to expire. But the "melee" and "Gun" frame would need to press forward and continue to fight to use their abilities, While the "Power" frame would need to be conservative.

Stops Mag spamming Crush but allowing Ash throw more shurikens (or some other under-used ability)

[MJ12]

I forgot the thread which is unfortunate but someone suggested varying ways of getting energy.

I'm paraphrasing but:

A "melee" frame would gain energy every time he hit an enemy with melee

A "Gun" frame would gain energy when he kills an enemy with his gun

A "Power" frame would regen power passively.

 

power orbs may or may not be in the game.

 

I liked this idea because it gives frames themselves more variety other than starting stats and polarity.

 

Also if balanced right works well. Like Tsukinoki said cool-downs led to people just sitting around waiting for cool-downs to expire. But the "melee" and "Gun" frame would need to press forward and continue to fight to use their abilities, While the "Power" frame would need to be conservative.

Stops Mag spamming Crush but allowing Ash throw more shurikens (or some other under-used ability)

 

The problem here is that you still end up with the 'shares same resources' problem. This is okay if you have multiple, meaningfully different powers (a la Mass Effect 3) and balance them so they're all useful or most useful in conjunction with each other.

 

This is not okay if you have one-trick ponies, powers with little synergy, and so on.

[Calayne]

I see someone plays 4th ed. ^^

 

I think the idea is good, and also lends more weight to tactical considerations: Wait and recuperate, or go out there and make a run for it with powers blazing? It also lends to different styles of play, which will definitely become mroe obvious as Powers increase in variety after the next few updates.

 

As for soft-lock, I think it's all up to player preference: Some weapons will benefit greatly from it, some will falter. Case in point: Hammer does well aiming your own trajectory to hit maximum amount of targets. Fang does better with softlock, since there's no multihit capability.

 

I forgot the thread which is unfortunate but someone suggested varying ways of getting energy.

I'm paraphrasing but:

A "melee" frame would gain energy every time he hit an enemy with melee

A "Gun" frame would gain energy when he kills an enemy with his gun

A "Power" frame would regen power passively.

 

power orbs may or may not be in the game.

 

I liked this idea because it gives frames themselves more variety other than starting stats and polarity.

 

Also if balanced right works well. Like Tsukinoki said cool-downs led to people just sitting around waiting for cool-downs to expire. But the "melee" and "Gun" frame would need to press forward and continue to fight to use their abilities, While the "Power" frame would need to be conservative.

Stops Mag spamming Crush but allowing Ash throw more shurikens (or some other under-used ability)

 

I think I would have an issue with the idea of warframes being categorized by "Types". My playstyle for the Loki is actually quite aggresive, as I suspect most would be. Keyword being "Most". If it gets "Typed", it would most certainly be a "Power" type. This would mean that unlike everyone else, like Volt or Excalibur, I am going to run out of energy a lot more often than other people, and it's just because of the warframe type.

 

Seeing the direction Warframe is headed, I think this is less likely to happen. They're aiming for everyone to be able to do the same stuff except for the Powers, after all! And if my play style is stunted by the Warframe's limitations, that playstyle would have to be specialised to the hide-and-seek method! Melees should focus more on melee, range should focus more on range, if they want to get more out of their suit!

 

Of course, perhaps the idea itself isn't so bad, but I think it needs some exploration.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Calayne

[f3llyn]

A solution to the ammo problem would be to make the scavenger artifacts increase how much ammo you actually pick up by 100%.

 

This would solve that problem and give the added benefit of making those artifacts actually worthwhile to use.

 

As far as the cooldowns go. I dislike the idea of cooldowns. Talk about an antiquated game mechanic. Surely something more inventive can be come up with?

Edited April 18, 2013 by f3llyn

[auxy]

MJ12--

First off, love the name. (ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｂ　ＭＡＪＥＳＴＩＣ！ Second, thanks for posting.

 

I have some experience with pen and paper games myself, so I'm very receptive to your input.

 

I think you misunderstood me with respect to Slash Dash; I actually meant to say that it's very powerful, so it should have a longer cooldown than most "first" powers. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

Fantastic write-up about cooldowns, though, thanks so much for the support. I hope DE will see the light. (ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｂ　Also, I lol'd irl at "superhuman cyborg murder ninja". So apt!

 

 

Mak_Gohae--

Sorry; I identified a few things in your post which had been addressed already earlier in the thread. That's why I remarked that it seemed you hadn't read it. I didn't mean to offend! (╹◡╹)

 

Unfortunately, it seems like you failed to address my points with your post and instead, made a bunch of unrelated comments. Perhaps you should go back and read again?

 

 

Swifty2--

That idea -- for gaining energy based on your 'class' of frame -- reminds me of Warriors in World of Warcraft building Rage. It's interesting, but that requires you to define a mechanic (frame 'class') which doesn't yet exist in the game. It's not a bad solution, but I think dynamic cooldowns are better. As Calayne later pointed out, many people may not be happy with the 'type' associated with their chosen Warframe.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Oh and don't mind Mak. He generally disagrees with anything involving changing the game that are suggested by players and not the devs.

 

No, i generally disagree with called changes for things that have solutions in game that players dont take.

Basically every mission in this game gives at least 1k, Mercury missions should be the only ones that dont but with lockers and containers you should get it, and you REALLY telling me that you cant use those creds after a mission once in a while for an ammo box that totally replenishes your ammo? Really? In fact, you cant. The folks that dont use ammo boxes are folks that dont like that answer then go on to make up all these other excuses to complain and have the game changed to fit what they want to play.

 

Sorry but i dont go for that. I bought my ammo boxes once in a while and NEVER HAD THAT PROBLEM. He could bring 4 sniper boxes and 4 pistol boxes, all from daily rewards at this point, but nooooooo.... let's just change the whoooooole system of the game rather than that.

 

Come on.

[krisp]

1,2,3:

Ammo boxes. Yes I know they're expensive but there's your justification. Maybe if they make them have multiple uses, but yeah. Unlimited ammo on pistols boggles the mind with how silly it is as a suggestion - my Afuris is a mincemeat machine held in check only by the very low amount of ammo I have for it. If I had unlimited ammo, there would be no reason to use anything else. It would severely imbalance the weapons.

 

4. I will say that the energy orbs aren't balanced properly, but the situation where other powers become less desirable to use only happens without a Flow mod. Flow is a game-changer in that regard. My problem with energy orbs is that the drop is inconsistent - I will get 5 of them from a wave of enemies, and next wave I'll get 2 or 1. This is pretty confusing and leads to an erratic playstyle.

 

5. You forget materials. Rubedo and alloy plate drop a lot more from crates and boxes than anything else, encouraging exploring when you're looking for them. I've argued elsewhere that they need to increase credit drops from crates too though.

 

6. I don't understand the complaint. They said they will add generic skills and I always assumed they will replace one of our powers in the hotkey bar.

 

7. The parkour could use some work but it seems to me like the devs went for more of a "simulation" feel rather than an "arcade" one. There's lots of instances where you lose control because it's more realistic that way. Can't say I'm a fan, but this is a deliberate decision and it's hard to change.

As for melee: if you can't aim properly, stop using Furax. There's lots of melee weapons that are easy to hit with.

[auxy]

krisp--

Thanks for your post!

 

I'm really surprised how many people are replying that they are willing to buy and use the consumable ammo boxes. Frankly, they're so expensive, and credits are in such short supply, I don't even consider them a viable purchase, much less a solution to the ammo problem. Knowing that you get three uses out of one is slightly better; at least they might last you a whole mission! Still, I don't really think discussing  them is helpful, in any case; they're not a good solution to the problem long-term. Making players spend more of their precious credits is just not a good answer.

 

There's really just no reason to support the energy mechanic. It has no advantages; it doesn't serve any purpose. It is bad.

 

Materials, materials -- it was brought up earlier, yes. Still, as I mentioned, I seem to have plenty of materials for anything I've looked at building so far -- barring rares -- and I've scarcely made an effort to look.

 

My 6) item is not so much a complaint really as a suggestion for a change. Right now, powers are hard-coded to the 1-4 slots, and if they added general powers, there is currently no way to use them. You also cannot reorder your powers. This is a solution for that.

 

I can aim my FURAX just fine, thank you very much. s(・｀ヘ´・；) I'm just remarking that I shouldn't have to.

 

Mak_Gohae--

See my above reply to krisp. (╹◡╹)

[Calayne]

Interesting point raised, Mak, and I agree with you, to an extent. I think Ammo boxes are good for those who tend to use a certain weapon type a lot. I myself rarely have ammo problems unless I specifically want to train it until it's out of ammo. But I think the point is that the ammo drop is not scaled properly, to the extent that high fire-rate weapons suffer a lot more than those with high damage but low fire-rate. Simply forcing players to buy the ammo boxes due to their choice in weapon is not quite far, in my opinion. (Also, finding tonnes and tonnes of useless ammo constipates my fragile neurons.)

 

While I agree that we shouldn't all make suggestions for change just to suit our play style, but I do believe that suggestions have to be made anyways, and the developers will decide: After all, most of the changes now -are- based on player suggestions. Changes are necessary. Which ones are the dilemma.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Calayne

[TheTenthDoc]

I feel like this can be chalked up to you having a different design approach than what DE is looking for. One of the beautiful things about a PvE game with no consequences AT ALL for losing is the opportunity for learning experiences. There's not even an emotional punishment. Instead you come away a better player.

 

I mean, the first time I ran out of ammo on both my guns I said "well, okay, guess I shouldn't use two ammo-draining guns unless I want to melee at least one third to half the enemies." The first time I didn't have a Fireblast on Ember against Infested I thought "well, guess in the future I should reserve 75 power; now that frames get passive power this isn't really a big deal." In a PvP game, these are opportunities for taunting or feel-bad moments, but in PvE? No way. It's like saying that mana is a bad system in (insert JRPG here) or that severely limiting ammo was a bad design choice in Resident Evil-the game should put SOME pressure on you not to wander around for ages.

Edited April 18, 2013 by TheTenthDoc

[krisp]

I'm really surprised how many people are replying that they are willing to buy and use the consumable ammo boxes. Frankly, they're so expensive, and credits are in such short supply, I don't even consider them a viable purchase, much less a solution to the ammo problem. Knowing that you get three uses out of one is slightly better; at least they might last you a whole mission! Still, I don't really think discussing  them is helpful, in any case; they're not a good solution to the problem long-term. Making players spend more of their precious credits is just not a good answer.

As far as long-term is concerned: a high-level player does not need ammo boxes. The only missions where I stand a chance of running out of ammo are defense missions that go on for more than 15-20 waves. Which is fine since any more than that is meant to be really challenging. I have 8 rifle ammo boxes from login rewards that I'll never use despite using a rifle as my primary. As far as low levels are concerned, there are such things as ammo-efficient secondary weapons, and assuming you explore the levels properly you shouldn't run out of ammo for all your guns unless you're fighting a boss with tons of HP.

 

 

 

There's really just no reason to support the energy mechanic. It has no advantages; it doesn't serve any purpose. It is bad.

Vague blanket statements that do not bring anything to the argument. It has no advantages over what? What purpose should it serve that it doesn't? HOW is it bad? You discuss things by explaining and offering reasons, not by making categorical statements. Because then it turns into rhetoric.

 

 

 

Materials, materials -- it was brought up earlier, yes. Still, as I mentioned, I seem to have plenty of materials for anything I've looked at building so far -- barring rares -- and I've scarcely made an effort to look.

Depends how much you've bought with that money you spent on the game. The fact that you didn't have to look for materials doesn't mean others didn't either. I remember farming quite a lot of rubedo and alloy plate, though that was before the Sedna and Europa patch.

 

 

 

I can aim my FURAX just fine, thank you very much. s(・｀ヘ´・；) I'm just remarking that I shouldn't have to.

Oh yes you should. That's one of the Furax's properties - it's difficult to aim because the radius is small. This isn't an RPG where everything is decided by stats and random rolls. The game has headshots and moving targets, so it's fair to assume it wants a bit of player skill and the fact that we're super space ninjas has no bearing on this since the game doesn't play itself.