Conclave/pvp Is Hard For New Players To Get Into.

[Rakshal]

I've seen this many times where someone will join a conclave match for the first time, get completely rofl stomped, and then rage quit. I find this kinda saddening because it turns a lot of players off of PvP. There are 2 reason why it is hard for these new players to get into conclave.

 

1) The amount of gear it takes.

 

Conclave takes an absurd amount of time to even farm worthy gear. You need (somewhat) hard to get mods and you need to have those rank 10 mods (Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike, ect.) to be max. You also need decently polorized weapons and frames.  Sure you could get those weapons and frames that are decent without forma but they won't come close to the potential of weapons and frames that are specifically polarized for conclave.

 

2) There is a HUGE skill gap between players.

 

Even if a player who is new to conclave has all the required mods and perfectly polarized weapons and frames he/she will still get destroyed because of the skill gap. Now in games like Call of Duty, Insurgency, and Blacklight: Retribution this isn't as much of a problem because there are so many player playing at the same time that you will have some games where you fight pros and some where you fight others closer to your skill level. But it isn't just the lack of player that hurts conclave, it is the lack of a guide. A new player isn't gonna learn how to parkour around or where to camp by playing against good players.

 

Now I'm not really sure how DE would be able to fix something like this but I have a few ideas. As for number 1, we could maybe have a conclave/PvP tab where you get access to all of the mods, weapons, and frames at max rank. Also it could maybe have unlimited forma to you can polarize the weapons however you want to and when you polarize them they just stay at max rank. As for number 2, maybe the conclave pros could do a collaborative effort on the players helping players part forums to set up a conclave guide on how to do certain things such as parkour and modding. Perhaps even get it pinned. I would love to hear thoughts on how you would address these problems.

[vaugahn]

Why not just have pre-built mod loadouts for every frame and weapon, and when you use that frame/weapon in PvP it uses that loadout instead of what you have installed? That way you still have freedom to choose what loadout you want, but power levels are somewhat equalized.

[Rakshal]

Why not just have pre-built mod loadouts for every frame and weapon, and when you use that frame/weapon in PvP it uses that loadout instead of what you have installed? That way you still have freedom to choose what loadout you want, but power levels are somewhat equalized.

Pre-built load outs make games boring. The fun of Warframe is how much freedom you have in you setups. Taking that away would make the game a lot less enjoyable.

[HAYABU5A]

its hard for anyone to get into because its broken

 

gear and skill doesnt even matter if the foundation is broken

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think a low Mastery cap (MR3 or so) could help.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

its hard for anyone to get into because its broken

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[Rakshal]

its hard for anyone to get into because its broken

 

gear and skill doesnt even matter if the foundation is broken

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Care to elaborate on how it broken?

[Rakshal]

I think a low Mastery cap (MR3 or so) could help.

Possibly but I think it should be more like around MR8 considering nothing is locked then.

[Vastaren]

Care to elaborate on how it broken?

I'd hazard a guess at the cause being due to the fact that basing PvP off a PvE foundation is pretty broken.

 

Warframe's content thus far has been about tackling hordes of enemies - in any given mission that players don't rush through, 50+ mobs will die. Weapons, warframes, skills are all designed for this type of combat - fast, multiple-contact encounters which can be ended by a few Shred/Metal Auger Soma rounds. If players do decide to rush though, combat is further ignored.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't really draw any parallels to my admittedly brief experience in PvP, where combat is the sole focus, and the opposition aren't enemies that can be easily trivialised like mobs can. The design of warframes, weapons and skills for PvE simply discourages pitting Tenno against Tenno because of how PvE combat really is, leading to pretty large disconnects in a PvP implementation.

[Rakshal]

I'd hazard a guess at the cause being due to the fact that basing PvP off a PvE foundation is pretty broken.

Warframe's content thus far has been about tackling hordes of enemies - in any given mission that players don't rush through, 50+ mobs will die. Weapons, warframes, skills are all designed for this type of combat - fast, multiple-contact encounters which can be ended by a few Shred/Metal Auger Soma rounds. If players do decide to rush though, combat is further ignored.

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't really draw any parallels to my admittedly brief experience in PvP, where combat is the sole focus, and the opposition aren't enemies that can be easily trivialised like mobs can. The design of warframes, weapons and skills for PvE simply discourages pitting Tenno against Tenno because of how PvE combat really is, leading to pretty large disconnects in a PvP implementation.

So your guessing, which means I can safely assume you have never done conclave or only did a few rounds. The weapons and gear are not broken (except explosives and Reflex Guard). The game play is fast paced where you aren't suppose to get hit. The only things that are broken are abilities which DE is showing that they are fixing. Edited September 26, 2014 by Rakshal

[xkillo32]

every game with pvp will have noobs getting owned

[Rakshal]

every game with pvp will have noobs getting owned

This is true but it isn't as bad in other games.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Possibly but I think it should be more like around MR8 considering nothing is locked then.

 

I think that would give off the wrong impression, considering players need to build quite a few frames and weapons to reach MR8. People who join expecting PvP (which isn't the main feature of the game, but may be attractive to some people) don't want to find out they need to build 5 frames and 14 weapons before they can. And keep in mind most of the people who frequent the Forums are fairly high Mastery-wise, and DE might not be aware people are angry about it because new players just find something else to do.

[Vastaren]

So your guessing, which means I can safely assume you have never done conclave or only did a few rounds. The weapons and gear are not broken (except explosives and Reflex Guard). The game play is fast paced where you aren't suppose to get hit. The only things that are broken are abilities which DE is showing that they are fixing.

I can agree that gameplay is fast-paced and avoiding damage is something at the heart of combat, both PvP and PvE. You're right, I haven't been an avid PvP'er because of what I outlined in my previous post, and you've one-upped me on that. But when we try to equate what we see when we fight mobs and what we see when we fight players, using the same mechanics for both (and this is an objective statement), I think that's where a lot of issues arise. I stand by my assessment of the fact that basing PvP off a wholly different PvE philosophy is the wrong way to go about introducing that aspect of multiplayer. That doesn't need experience to be a valid statement through logic.

 

I have to take your word for it that weapons and gear scale fine. I'm just pointing out that the way PvP has been approached thus far - from a PvE foundation - means it's a lot more work to try and balance it for a different style of play, and mightn't necessarily converge to an acceptable state for all players, both new and established.

[taiiat]

well, 'that guy' in Conclave that has the right Anti-Tenno Damage Types and knows how to move quickly - and that's a guaranteed win against anyone that isn't also that way.

 

PvP in Warframe is a one hit deal for almost any Weapon. because that's how effective Anti-Tenno Damage Types are.

 

 

the problem is the PvP. it's flawed at it's core, built from content designed around PvE. changing stats won't fix fundamental issues with mechanics that are fine in PvE, but trivialize PvP.

 

 

Edit:

as such is why i take no part in Dark Sector fights anymore. it's a forced PvP Mission, so you can just keep it. Warframe isn't built to be a PvP game. we'd need to rewrite huge chunks of the Engine to make it good for PvP.

Edited September 26, 2014 by taiiat

[REDHOOOD]

Hey Rak, 

 

I actually fit in the none geared category. I still do not have maxed serration, vit, etc. This is actually an advantage in Dark Sector PvP - since you receive these mods before your opponent. so, these un-maxed mods still have their place.

 

There are also many other ways to make this work. My serration only has a Mod cost of 10, this opens up 4 more mod points for me to increase status chance. Point I'm trying to make is, if we are willing - we can take this perceived weakness and create something unexpected.

 

As my martial arts instructor has always said, "you want to surprise your opponent."

 

Sometimes an obvious weakness can be the source of great strength.

 

I would be happy to help any new players with this,

 

Red  

 

Edit:

 

I just read some of the comments and I believe some of you accidentally missed the point of the post. The purpose of this thread is to bring awareness to some obvious gear disadvantages. Talking about how you hate it does not solve the underlying problem that geared players are favoured in conclaves. 

 

Furthermore, these same issues are not equal in dark sector pvp. There, you must reach the appropriate level to have "said mods", which is not comparable. Please abstain from polluting this thread with negativity as I am sure there are other threads in PvP feedback where you opinion can go. 

Edited September 26, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[REDHOOOD]

I think that would give off the wrong impression, considering players need to build quite a few frames and weapons to reach MR8. People who join expecting PvP (which isn't the main feature of the game, but may be attractive to some people) don't want to find out they need to build 5 frames and 14 weapons before they can. And keep in mind most of the people who frequent the Forums are fairly high Mastery-wise, and DE might not be aware people are angry about it because new players just find something else to do.

 

Rank doesn't matter. I am only rank 6.5 believe it or not, and I have been killing rank 12+ since rank 3.

 

Best

 

Red 

[.Talia.]

That's exactly what happens... The player base is full of ex-MMORPG players that came to this game because it didn't had PvP, most of them are not used to competitive shooters, they don't want competition, just want to farm their stuff in peace. They are so used to their godly powers, staying 1h in a mission without dying. Being killed in 1 second it's outrageous for some players. 

 

PvE players join a Conclave for the first time, get completely roflstomped... Hate PvP forever saying this game is not for PvP, come to the forums whine about getting one shotted by a guy coptering from a wallrun. Little does he knows that the guy spent many hours perfecting his aiming and parkour, with fully forma'd gear specially for PvP. The result? DE nerf all damage to shields by -50% and health by -75% in a band-aid attempt to make the PvP more accessible to newcomers. 

 

Warframe Conclave PvP is a Twitch Shooter with Parkour. Unreal Tournament, Quake III Arena, or Counter Strike, ring any bells? Go google the TTK of those games. People complain about the TTK in Warframe, that there are lots of weapons capable of 1-shotting or killing in more or less than a second, but so what? Be stealthy and don't get shot, be fast with twitch reflexes, react quickly and shoot first, and have good aim don't miss.

The Conclave PvP in Warframe is about twitch reflexes, aiming and parkour. Being fast, stealthy and precise. And yes it does take a lot of skill. Let's not forget the cognitive prediction, to know your enemy, know his moves, his tactics, his routes, and how to counter them.

Edited September 27, 2014 by RexSol

[Azawarau]

Why not just have pre-built mod loadouts for every frame and weapon, and when you use that frame/weapon in PvP it uses that loadout instead of what you have installed? That way you still have freedom to choose what loadout you want, but power levels are somewhat equalized.

 

 

Pre-built load outs make games boring. The fun of Warframe is how much freedom you have in you setups. Taking that away would make the game a lot less enjoyable.

^^^^^

 

I'd hazard a guess at the cause being due to the fact that basing PvP off a PvE foundation is pretty broken.

 

Warframe's content thus far has been about tackling hordes of enemies - in any given mission that players don't rush through, 50+ mobs will die. Weapons, warframes, skills are all designed for this type of combat - fast, multiple-contact encounters which can be ended by a few Shred/Metal Auger Soma rounds. If players do decide to rush though, combat is further ignored.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't really draw any parallels to my admittedly brief experience in PvP, where combat is the sole focus, and the opposition aren't enemies that can be easily trivialised like mobs can. The design of warframes, weapons and skills for PvE simply discourages pitting Tenno against Tenno because of how PvE combat really is, leading to pretty large disconnects in a PvP implementation.

Everything can be adjusted to better fit PvP and keep each frames identity

 

The issue is DE rarely makes conclave changes

Edited October 3, 2014 by Azawarau