Dual Ichors Vs Dragon Nikana

[S0ulre4per]

Hi. on this topic im going to need help from proframers.

 

So dual ichors or dragon nikana (i have both) (if warframe matters - im using ash)

 

dragon nikana deals more dmg but dual ichors are faster and have better crit dmg.

 

which 1 is better?

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

'Better' is very much the opinion, but I say Dual Ichors because of their higher sustainable DPS.

 

Moved to a more appropriate section.

[RidingSouls]

I'm more of a burst-type damage person, so I tend to go for D.Nikana.

It pretty much depends on what your playstyle is.

[Shuuro]

You can do fine with either to be honest.

 

Dual Ichor has more DPS, and it can copter.

 

Dragon Nikana feels like it has a lot more control, while having more reach for stealth attacks.

 

 

In all honesty, you can chose either weapon and still do perfectly fine. Just make sure to use the right elements vs. the right factions.

[S0ulre4per]

I'm more of a burst-type damage person, so I tend to go for D.Nikana.

It pretty much depends on what your playstyle is.

 

 

You can do fine with either to be honest.

 

Dual Ichor has more DPS, and it can copter.

 

Dragon Nikana feels like it has a lot more control, while having more reach for stealth attacks.

 

 

In all honesty, you can chose either weapon and still do perfectly fine. Just make sure to use the right elements vs. the right factions.

 

 

 

i mostly use smokescreen + teleport. so im going for finishers....which 1 fits that role better? (yes i moded both weapons for all factions)

[Z123FFSS89]

Dual Ichors because 400k+ crits

[willis936]

I'm not sure the ichors will be doing more dps.  In max build scenarios the ichors fall behind the dragon nikana by 10% in dps.

 

Dragon nikana v. ferrite:

http://goo.gl/tUVWDW

 

Dual ichors v. ferrite:

http://goo.gl/FQc9UI

 

Yes you can copter to go faster, yes you can channel to change the playing field (pretty much always burst damage and not good for when things get hairy, when you need melee the most), yes you can account for stances, but at the end of the day right now nothing will beat a properly modded dragon nikana single target damage with your primary equipped on any opponent, full stop.

Edited October 4, 2014 by willis936

[xkillo32]

I'm not sure the ichors will be doing more dps.  In max build scenarios the ichors fall behind the dragon nikana by 10% in dps.

did u have 3 berserker stacks

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I'm not sure the ichors will be doing more dps.  In max build scenarios the ichors fall behind the dragon nikana by 10% in dps.

Maxxing the builds out, the Ichors compete pretty easily in terms of DPS.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Dual_ichor/t_30_320000003_224-7-5-226-2-5-236-1-5-239-6-5-241-0-5-244-3-5-245-4-5-247-5-5-308-8-3_241-6-236-6-226-9-244-9-245-11-247-9-239-9-224-9-308-10/en/4-0-29/9152/0

http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Dragon_nikana/t_30_240000002_230-4-3-234-7-3-236-0-5-240-6-3-241-3-5-245-2-5-247-5-5-254-1-5-306-8-3_236-6-254-6-245-11-241-11-230-7-247-9-240-7-234-9-306-10/en/4-0-53/2514/0

[willis936]

Maxxing the builds out, the Ichors compete pretty easily in terms of DPS.

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Dual_ichor/t_30_320000003_224-7-5-226-2-5-236-1-5-239-6-5-241-0-5-244-3-5-245-4-5-247-5-5-308-8-3_241-6-236-6-226-9-244-9-245-11-247-9-239-9-224-9-308-10/en/4-0-29/9152/0

http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Dragon_nikana/t_30_240000002_230-4-3-234-7-3-236-0-5-240-6-3-241-3-5-245-2-5-247-5-5-254-1-5-306-8-3_236-6-254-6-245-11-241-11-230-7-247-9-240-7-234-9-306-10/en/4-0-53/2514/0

These are two different builds.  The dragon nikana build is focused on ferrite and uses channeling (and blast, which doesn't make much sense) while the ichors are focused on infested.  Yes they'll look comparable when one of the builds isn't actually anywhere near max.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

These are two different builds.  The dragon nikana build is focused on ferrite and uses channeling (and blast, which doesn't make much sense) while the ichors are focused on infested.  Yes they'll look comparable when one of the builds isn't actually anywhere near max.

Whoops, I did the wrong link. I transferred the builds over to eachother for an easy comparison but looked at the wrong page.

 

With the Ichor build on the Dragon Nikana it is 

1840.66 TOTAL DAMAGE

4546.43 BURST DPS

4546.43 SUSTAINED DPS

 

Thanks for the correction.

[xenapan]

Actually I think it depends entirely on HOW you use the weapons. 

 

1. Do you need to copter? Ichors win out. 

 

2. Do you use melee stance (instead of quick attack) vs quick attacks (tap e melee but primarily use primary/secondary)? both nikana stances feel pretty lackluster and dont work very well IMO. but if you JUST use it for quick attacks, it's excellent.

[Darzk]

Ichors are better sustained DPS, mostly because Berzerker makes them attack blazingly fast.

Dragon Nikana is higher damage per swing, which I think is more important when using Ash, especially because now you lose the stealth bonus if you bump into the enemy, so hitting them once to kill is pretty important.

 

Plus Ichors range is fairly short and you walk forward when swinging so you're going to bump into things and lose the bonus if you take multiple hits to kill it (high levels).

[willis936]

Ichors are better sustained DPS, mostly because Berzerker makes them attack blazingly fast.

Dragon Nikana is higher damage per swing, which I think is more important when using Ash, especially because now you lose the stealth bonus if you bump into the enemy, so hitting them once to kill is pretty important.

 

Plus Ichors range is fairly short and you walk forward when swinging so you're going to bump into things and lose the bonus if you take multiple hits to kill it (high levels).

Berserk works on the dragon nikana as well.  I haven't seen a tick for tack ichors build that will out dps the dragon nikana.  The base stats simply aren't there.  Honestly the ichors have more utility with the higher attack speed for lower level systems and ability to copter but the dragon nikana has higher dps.

 

Note: The nikana's attack speed and crit chance is sufficient to set berserk off within the first few swings.

Edited October 4, 2014 by willis936

[Darzk]

I haven't seen a tick for tack ichors build that will out dps the dragon nikana.

You can't just consider the numbers on the Builder. There's plenty of other information to consider:

 

Zerker stacks. Nikana without TS will not maintain all 3 stacks perpetually, maybe 2 of 3. With TS I can see it holding all 3, assuming enemy contact is consistent.

 

Swirling Tiger is inherently better than either Nikana stance, having a far higher # of attacks/second rate.

 

Fire rate is not consistent across weapon types. 1.0 attack speed on a Dual Sword is much more hits/second than 1.0 attack speed on a Nikana. 

 

Channeling is a per-strike cost, and thus is a poor choice with the Ichors, and works better with a harder hitting weapon like the Nikana. Right off the bat, we can't compare the two if they're ideally built differently.

 

Ichors are an innate elemental weapon. This means the base damage can be converted to an ideal element for opposition to the enemy faction. This is especially important against Ferrite armor, where converting the base to Corrosive will ignore 75% of the armor value. As such, an Ichor setup dealing only 806.4 Damage/Swing average will actually deal 3% more damage per swing to a level 50 HGunner than a similar Nikana setup dealing 1138.3 Damage/Swing average.

[willis936]

The builder should be used to compare the max dps and look at the damage vs. the desired opponent.  Click on details and see what the damage is against the desired target (grineer ferrite in our test case).  I have a post up top that has two actually maxed builds to compare and the nikana wins out by 10%.  The pure elemental ichors have an advantage because all of their damage can be corrosive as opposed to having a good chunk always being slash.

 

Also the nikana can easily maintain all 3 berserker stacks.  After spoiled strike and fury the dragon nikana has a swings 1.1 times a second with a 15% crit chance.  Let's just assume that you're only hitting once per swing and swinging constantly.  I think this is a reasonable set of assumptions when clearing out a crowd of enemies.  You'll be critting once every 6 seconds (1 / (1.1 * .15 )) and you'd need to be critting once every 8 (24 / 3 ) seconds to be comfortably within the range to set berserkr off.

 

This is all analysis without channeling, against targets that the ichors have an advantage in.  Another thing to look at is the status chance.  Since they're both identical and the ichors won't be sharing the chance to proc something bad like impact they win in this department.

 

It's a game of tradeoffs and if the ichors had higher dps then they would win in pretty much every category but they don't win in the dps category and that can be important.

Edited October 4, 2014 by willis936

[Darzk]

The builder should be used to compare the max dps and look at the damage vs. the desired opponent.  Click on details and see what the damage is against the desired target (grineer ferrite in our test case).

Builder does not take into account armor, as that changes at different enemy level/type.

 

After spoiled strike and fury the dragon nikana has a swings 1.1 times a second 

1.1 attack speed is NOT 1.1 attacks/second.

 

You'll be critting once every 6 seconds (1 / (1.1 * .15 )) and you'd need to be critting once every 8 (24 / 3 ) seconds to be comfortably within the range to set berserkr off.

Exactly. That leaves *no* downtime, and takes ~20 seconds of constant attacking to get up to top RoF.

 

Another thing to look at is the status chance.  Since they're both identical and the ichors won't be sharing the chance to proc something bad like impact they win in this department.

Ichors have double the elemental proc chance per swing, and attack more than twice as fast. Thus, ~4x the status proc rate.

[willis936]

Builder does not take into account armor, as that changes at different enemy level/type.

This is precisely why you hit the details tab to see the raw damage numbers for each enemy type.

 

 

1.1 attack speed is NOT 1.1 attacks/second.

This is the first time I've ever heard this.  There is little information out there in the way of testing but everywhere I've read has assumed this to be swings per second much like the fire rate on rifles is bullets per second.

 

 

Exactly. That leaves *no* downtime, and takes ~20 seconds of constant attacking to get up to top RoF.

It does not take that long because berserker stacks build up after the first crit.  You'd be looking at a max of 15 seconds of cleaving to build all stacks up.  Yes you need more enemies present than crit based melee but hitting all 3 stacks is very common on the dragon nikana.

 

 

Ichors have double the elemental proc chance per swing, and attack more than twice as fast. Thus, ~4x the status proc rate.

Ichors have the same elemental proc chance per swing (15% starting) and don't attack more than twice as fast.  The ichors will get more procs per second but it will be closer to 2x rather than 4x.

[Darzk]

This is precisely why you hit the details tab to see the raw damage numbers for each enemy type.

Still doesn't take into account armor, which Slash is especially weak against.

 

This is the first time I've ever heard this.  There is little information out there in the way of testing but everywhere I've read has assumed this to be swings per second much like the fire rate on rifles is bullets per second.

Fire rate is not consistent across melee weapon types. 1.0 attack speed on a Dual Sword is much more hits/second than 1.0 attack speed on a Nikana. 

Its rather difficult to compare weapons across types because of this, and even worse when you try to take into account stances. All you can really state conclusively is that DN hits harder with raw damage than DI, per swing.

 

It does not take that long because berserker stacks build up after the first crit.  You'd be looking at a max of 15 seconds of cleaving to build all stacks up.  Yes you need more enemies present than crit based melee but hitting all 3 stacks is very common on the dragon nikana.

3 Crits = 20 swings. However long that takes. Not too bad when you can hit 3 enemies at once, but that's not all that common. Especially for a stealth based frame, enemies tend to come one at a time. But whenever you lose those stacks, running to another room etc, you have to build up again, and the ~8x faster restacking on the Ichors is a huge help.

 

Ichors have the same elemental proc chance per swing (15% starting)

Ichors have 15% elemental proc chance per swing. DN has 7.5% Elemental and 7.5% physical proc.

 

Ichors don't attack more than twice as fast.

I don't have time to make a video but I'm pretty sure of that. Given the stance especially, with that swirl that hits 4 times. WTB a testing dummy for these sorta things, DE! :P

 

Enjoying the discussion. :-)

[willis936]

Didn't know that physical and elemental procs had a 50-50 chance. I thought the chance to a certain proc was based on what percentage the total damage was made of each type of damage so if a nikana did 300 slash and 300 corrosive it would be 50-50.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Didn't know that physical and elemental procs had a 50-50 chance. I thought the chance to a certain proc was based on what percentage the total damage was made of each type of damage so if a nikana did 300 slash and 300 corrosive it would be 50-50.

Big reason people prefer Elemental base weapons for status builds over IPS variant. (Serro lands more elemental than Jat Kittag) Just doing base Dual Ichors only need chance for Toxic where as Dragon Nikana base can Proc Impact, Slash, or Puncture.

Also take into account Stance Combo- innate procs versus quick-fire melee attacks. (If comparing quick fire Dragon Nikana vs Swirling Tiger Dual Ichors)

Edited October 5, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Cerberus888]

To answer the OP. I use ash pretty frequently on stealth missions like rescue and I use the nikana for two reasons. First is because it has longer reach and is more precise. The second reason is because I in combination with ashes speed and agility, the nikana is a good fit. Personally the ichors feel like you are waving around two sharp knives. So a mixture of personal preference and utility.  

[xventriloquist]

'Better' is very much the opinion, but I say Dual Ichors because of their higher sustainable DPS.

DPS is everything.^

[Cerberus888]

DPS is everything.^

What about the Death Star? Very low DPS....

[Anrothan]

'Better' is very much the opinion, but I say Dual Ichors because of their higher sustainable DPS.

 

Moved to a more appropriate section.

Dual Ichors>Durka Durka prime>everything else. Seriously.. I can 1 slice Zanuka/Stalker/That one boss that is invulnerable, then u can hit him once he turns to fire. (The one that drops Frost parts in ceres.. wtf is his name?????)

[Phoenix86]

Dual Ichors>Durka Durka prime>everything else. Seriously.. I can 1 slice Zanuka/Stalker/That one boss that is invulnerable, then u can hit him once he turns to fire. (The one that drops Frost parts in ceres.. wtf is his name?????)

 

Lech Kril

 

I'd go Dual Ichors... when Berserk triggers... u really go in Berserk mode... i use them with Viral + crits only on Zephyr w/Turbolence and slay countless Grineers like a fury from hell (no formas needed, just a potato)