Shields Are Bad.

[Naftal]

Probably that Slash is the most common proc in the game by far, as well as the entire Infested faction essentially having access to Toxin.

Most slash procs are done by enemies that shoot with automatic weapons though and those procs deal very small damage.

 

Infested poison isn't really a problem because you can prevent them from getting close enough to apply it...

[Azawarau]

I'm glad it's not, but the rest of us, it is. I hope you can understand out grievances about these issues. My idea can help everyone, including you.

 

-Jin

I dont see a problem

 

On the other hand, there are Health orbs but no Shield Orbs and Health gets affected by Armour while Shields don't.

 

Health still wins, especially when you take stuff like healing abilities and mods like Lifestrike.

Shields need a buff for sure

 

But procs arent the issue

 

Probably that Slash is the most common proc in the game by far, as well as the entire Infested faction essentially having access to Toxin.

You mean that faction that cant get you on a box...?

[Brimir]

Most slash procs are done by enemies that shoot with automatic weapons though and those procs deal very small damage.

 

Infested poison isn't really a problem because you can prevent them from getting close enough to apply it...

 

Excuses, excuses. It is clearly biased towards to Shield-based Warframes over Health-based ones, either by design or by accident as a result of some changes. While Health-based Warframes shrug off the procs, Shield-based ones can not due to their low Health.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Brimir

[Naftal]

Excuses, excuses. It is clearly biased towards to Shield-based Warframes over Health-based ones, either by design or by accident as a result of some changes. While Health-based Warframes shrug off the procs, Shield-based ones can not due to their low Health.

The shield based warframes aren't supposed to stay alive only with their shields. High shields just means that they have higher amount of that extra protection.

 

I use Vitality on the low health frames (75 base) and 555 max hp is enough to shrug off the procs...

[The_Diabetes]

The entire point of bleed procs was to make people actually give a damn about health. There is -one- health based frame. Valkyr. Everyone else goes shields. Because shields are so much better. Its like you're playing a different game.

[Brimir]

The shield based warframes aren't supposed to stay alive only with their shields.

 

Says who? That's how the game was designed before Bleed would proc through Shields - what have the Shield Warframes gotten to compensate?

 

Nothing.

 

Meanwhile we've got really nifty stuff like Lifestrike to make Health a lot more viable. Valkyr can tank like a boss without Hystria by just going melee with Lifestrike - Hystria is just the icing on the cake.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Brimir

[Naftal]

Says who? That's how the game was designed before Bleed would proc through Shields - what have the Shield Warframes gotten to compensate?

 

Nothing.

 

Meanwhile we've got really nifty stuff like Lifestrike to make Health a lot more viable. Valkyr can tank like a boss without Hystria by just going melee with Lifestrike - Hystria is just the icing on the cake.

Don't bring Valkyr to this. She has the tankiest stats ingame and is irrelevant to this. Low hp frames aren't meant to take that much damage.

 

It may have been different in damage 1.0 but it doesn't work like that anymore. The game is completely different now. Before it was the other way around, shields were better than hp because there weren't good ways to get hp back so you could just improve your shields and forget hp. THAT was stupid. It's much better now that the hp is the real thing to worry about and shields are just little extra protection.

[Brimir]

Yes obviously it is different, what I am saying is that while a lot of things changed Shields haven't and they are being unfairly and unreasonably penalized by it. Something has to be done. Shields should matter; thanks to Toxin and Bleed being everywhere they do not. Stacking Shield should be as effective as stacking Health.

 

And Valkyr isn't the only one able to survive by Health+Lifestrike - anyone can. She is just an extreme example. Rhino does very well as well with ignoring Shields.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Brimir

[Azawarau]

Says who? That's how the game was designed before Bleed would proc through Shields - what have the Shield Warframes gotten to compensate?

 

Nothing.

 

Meanwhile we've got really nifty stuff like Lifestrike to make Health a lot more viable. Valkyr can tank like a boss without Hystria by just going melee with Lifestrike - Hystria is just the icing on the cake.

I run a melee ember when maxed but when ranking her i do mostly run and gun and have no issue with bleed procs

 

And thats running around with 600? HP i cant remember her max anymore since ive been formaing her so much recently

[Brimir]

"Melee Ember"

 

I assume you have Lifestrike?

 

Of course you won't have any issues, lol.

[Naftal]

Yes obviously it is different, what I am saying is that while a lot of things changed Shields haven't and they are being unfairly and unreasonably penalized by it. Something has to be done. Shields should matter; thanks to Toxin and Bleed being everywhere they do not. Stacking Shield should be as effective as stacking Health.

 

And Valkyr isn't the only one able to survive by Health+Lifestrike - anyone can. She is just an extreme example. Rhino does very well as well with ignoring Shields.

Shields DO matter. You get a huge amount of ehp from them that gets even stronger with Guardian.

 

I don't understand why you think stacking shields should be as effective as stacking health though, unless you make it so that if you go to 0 shields you die.

[Brimir]

Because the investment is the same? Or actually, a fully ranked Redirection is 14 capacity while a fully ranked Vitality is merely 12 so... add to that that Health gets a natural damage resistance due to Armour (even without Steel Fiber).

 

You could argue that Health doesn't regenerate, but

 

Health Orbs no Shield Orbs (this is a huuuuge advantage if you have Nekros with you, and a decent one without)

Healing abilities are far more plentiful than Shield-restoring ones (Mags is a PITA to aim at other players).

Lifestrike (really, 5% of several thousands of melee damage tops you right off)

 

I would argue that sort of puts them on equal grounds. But when you add Slash procs and Toxin being everywhere, it obviously tips the scales in favour of Health. Shields only had the advantage of innate regeneration but DE has closed that gap. It is time to give Shields something, too.

 

Perhaps some sort of "Resistance" mod which would work like Steel Fiber but for Shields. Or one for reducing the chance of a status effect "sneaking through".

Edited October 12, 2014 by Brimir

[taiiat]

i think it's just fine, trying to facetank Enemies with Health or Shields is a bad idea no matter what.

 

 

but if we had to make a change, having Shields have some resistance to Status based on their 'fullness', does actually sound like a neat feature.

so i'd be fine with that.

 

 

Edit:

what does this mean? don't change the Status Effects at all. at .all. like the common 'unnnngh Slash Effects can poke my Health'.

that's a good thing.

 

and i'm thinking something like, 20% resistance to Status Effects at full Charge, 0% at 0 charge.

Edited October 11, 2014 by taiiat

[Naftal]

Because the investment is the same? Or actually, a fully ranked Redirection is 14 capacity while a fully ranked Vitality is merely 12 so... add to that that Health gets a natural damage resistance due to Armour (even without Steel Fiber).

 

You could argue that Health doesn't regenerate, but

 

Health Orbs no Shield Orbs.

Healing abilities are far more plentiful than Shield-restoring ones (Mags is a PITA to aim at other players).

Lifestrike.

 

You have a much easier time to replenish Health these days, while Shields have gotten incredibly weakened by Slash procs and Toxic damage being everywhere.

Still, you don't die with 0 shields. You die with 0 hp. Shields aren't HP, they are just extra protection. As long as losing all your shields isn't as big of a problem as losing all your hp, shields do not need to be as strong.

 

You're forgetting Guardian/Protect that make shields a lot stronger.

 

Basically shields are automatic protection you don't have to worry about so much, unlike hp. All hp regaining things are manual except for Rejuvenation but that doesn't even compare with the base shield regen.

 

Btw, I have no idea how Shield Polarize is hard to aim when it is an almost instant aoe ability with unlimited targets in the huge aoe...

[Azawarau]

Shields DO matter. You get a huge amount of ehp from them that gets even stronger with Guardian.

 

I don't understand why you think stacking shields should be as effective as stacking health though, unless you make it so that if you go to 0 shields you die.

I think health should be more effective but shields should be more useful

 

Because the investment is the same? Or actually, a fully ranked Redirection is 14 capacity while a fully ranked Vitality is merely 12 so... add to that that Health gets a natural damage resistance due to Armour (even without Steel Fiber).

 

You could argue that Health doesn't regenerate, but

 

Health Orbs no Shield Orbs (this is a huuuuge advantage if you have Nekros with you, and a decent one without)

Healing abilities are far more plentiful than Shield-restoring ones (Mags is a PITA to aim at other players).

Lifestrike (really, 5% of several thousands of melee damage tops you right off)

 

I would argue that sort of puts them on equal grounds. But when you add Slash procs and Toxin being everywhere, it obviously tips the scales in favour of Health. Shields only had the advantage of innate regeneration but DE has closed that gap. It is time to give Shields something, too.

 

Perhaps some sort of "Resistance" mod which would work like Steel Fiber but for Shields. Or a reduce the chance of a status effect "sneaking through".

The advantrage is exactly that they regen

 

But the regen can be slow and the shields die rather quickly

 

Im all for making the game harder but i feel sorry for softy frames that go for shield builds

 

To get the most out of HP you should use Vitality,life strike,Steel fiber (armored frames 155+), and rage for synergy

 

i think it's just fine, trying to facetank Enemies with Health or Shields is a bad idea no matter what.

 

 

but if we had to make a change, having Shields have some resistance to Status based on their 'fullness', does actually sound like a neat feature.

so i'd be fine with that.

My name is any frame with armor or a strong CC/DR

[StinkyPygmy]

All I'm gathering from this is that you haven't tried to stay past 25 minutes of Cassini on Saturn or seen much late-game infested recently. 

 

I'm not saying you haven't, but it's heavily implied, as lategame Grineer are bleed-proc machines, whereas the more poisonous infested will reliably insta-down my friend's Mirage unless he slots on a Vitality and stays on a crate. 

Not true. I've been at WF since just after OB and I have definitely spent a lot of time a round high level infested on long defenses etc.

Rarely is shield ignore dmg a threat even to squishy banshee in my experience anyway.

Poison getting you down? Antitoxin.S

Slash procs wittle your health down after an hour long survival? Maybe you've been there too long or could use a health restore to top you up. Eviserators are generally the only enemies capable of dealing any kind of significant slash dmg quickly.

Edited October 12, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Brimir]

The advantrage is exactly that they regen

 

But the regen can be slow and the shields die rather quickly

 

Exactly, it isn't much of advantage when there is so much that freakin' bypass it in addition to them recharging slowly and dying quickly! They have no damage resistance and stuff bypass them. Woop woop.

 

Shields need and update to be brought up to snuff in the light of Damage/Status 2.0.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Brimir

[Naftal]

Exactly, it isn't much of advantage when there is so much that freakin' bypass it in addition to them recharging slowly and dying quickly! They have no damage resistance and stuff bypass them. Woop woop.

 

Shields need and update to be brought up to snuff in the light of Damage/Status 2.0.

Most damage in the game doesn't bypass shields. Sure, slash procs happen and you can go hug infested to poison you but it isn't that much in reality.

[Brimir]

It is enough to be an issue.

[Tostov]

It is enough to be an issue.

 

But shields, shields are pretty much fine. I mean, a bit more base recharge would be excellent, or a aura/mod that made your shields regenerate slowly under fire, or a mod that restored shield power when you picked up energy. Those would all be pretty cool to have.

 

Thing is, from what I've read, you're not complaining so much about shields, but rather, about things that bypass them. Antitoxin is amazing for reducing damage from toxin, and is pretty cheap. And slash doesn't proc nearly as hard or as often as you think it does.

Also, not everyone has healing mods. Lifestrike requires you melee stuff, which isn't always a good idea. Equilibirum is, while not rare, not the most common early item. Health orbs don't drop from anything but boxes or nekros, and that means either you have a nekros, or you don't get health orbs. And nekros is pretty terrible to solo with and requires you to do Derelict assassinates.

Besides, shields mitigate a gigantic amount of damage, like huge amounts.

[Brimir]

You say they're fine, yet you then the very next sentence want them improved.

 

Fact: Shields haven't changed in ages; the game very much has. Health has had a lot of upgrades to adapt to the new game, Shields haven't.

 

They are due.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Brimir

[StinkyPygmy]

It is enough to be an issue.

Which is the point.

We have punchthrough, we're faster, stronger and have an endless number of powerful abilities.

We're essentially demi gods.

Its not exactly unfair that two things can by pass our shields and only one of those is even close to a significant threat. That being poison.

We even have access to the same advantages of shield bypassing dmg. We have multiple ways to counter said dmg (molt, healing abilities, health restores, steel fiber for slash, antitoxin).

So its not exactly unfair that every so often an unprepared or careless tenno will fall to a poison proc.

 

I can honestly say most of my deaths are due to regular dmg when my shields are down. Regardless of frame.

 

I will concede that toxic exermis ancients are rather cheap. Nothing cool about a large almost unavoidable poison aura.

Especially seeing as they show up mostly during defence when leaving the pod is death anyway.

[Siolith]

Or  a new mod called "Shiel deflector", who can converts your shield into a shield capable to block any status while it's active.

 

Juste an idea...

[Tostov]

You say they're fine, yet you then the very next sentence want them improved.

 

Fact: Shields haven't changed in ages; the game very much has. Health has had a lot of upgrades to adapt to the new game, Shields haven't.

 

They are due.

Just because they're fine, doesn't mean they can't use some more cool things with them. The only straight buff I suggested to them was the minor regen speed.

The rest were 'this'd be cool' mod ideas. Shields are perfectly fine for what they do at the moment, and don't need straight buffs/instaprocresist. New mods to allow more versatility on warframes would be nice though.

[fatpig84]

I had suggested this a long time ago though.

Just a proc immunity based on how much shield you have.

 

For example, you get shot and the enemy procs, BUT you have 75% shields left, so you have 75% proc immunity.

At 50% you have 50% proc immunity.

At 25% you only have a slim 25% chance to avoid the proc.

 

This way it helps protects against incident scratches instead of rewarding stupid play (like Damage 1.0 shields).

And yes I use percentage because not every frame has the same amount of shields.

Edited October 12, 2014 by fatpig84