Shields Are Bad.

[Jin_Lightning]

I had suggested this a long time ago though.

Just a proc immunity based on how much shield you have.

 

For example, you get shot and the enemy procs, BUT you have 75% shields left, so you have 75% proc immunity.

At 50% you have 50% proc immunity.

At 25% you only have a slim 25% chance to avoid the proc.

 

This way it helps protects against incident scratches instead of rewarding stupid play (like Damage 1.0 shields).

And yes I use percentage because not every frame has the same amount of shields.

I like this, but I think it should be by amount, not percentage. Because frames with high shields tend to have lower health and vice versa. Higher health is better to contend with these procs than shields.

 

This way, frames can keep their identity.

 

-Jin

[fatpig84]

I like this, but I think it should be by amount, not percentage. Because frames with high shields tend to have lower health and vice versa. Higher health is better to contend with these procs than shields.

 

This way, frames can keep their identity.

 

-Jin

 

Do Loki, Mirage, Nova, Booben, Nekros etc have both high shields or health in the first place ?

IIRC they are all below 700 shields and have a health bar that makes Excal health bar look tanky.

 

Keep it at percentage, this makes it fair.

Edited October 12, 2014 by fatpig84

[RealPandemonium]

When are you guys gonna git gud [skrubs]?

[Azawarau]

When are you guys gonna git gud [skrubs]?

 

Dont you feel shields are a bit underwhelming?

[Marthrym]

Besides, shields mitigate a gigantic amount of damage, like huge amounts.

Now that's a big fat lie, right there. Health+armor can mitigate "like huge amounts" of damage, and even transform that damage into energy for instance. Shields don't have mitigation "buffers".

 

Shields lack that kind of synergy. It's not about making them "better", it's about giving them at least a bit of that synergy Health has gained over time. Again, the procs themselves are fine as they are, it's just scaling that makes them look broken, because scaling itself is broken, nothing more.

 

What I (and apparently others in this thread) am asking for is Shields that interact differently depending on what they are exposed to. Make them less... blend. Make them INTERESTING.

 

Keywords : synergy and interaction. NOT "super duper shields".

Edited October 12, 2014 by Marthrym

[Naftal]

So, what exactly do people who complain about shields being too bad want them to be? Or what kind of mods you want for shields.

 

Giving passive proc resistance based on your shields would be stupid. Make a mod to do that instead. It's not like hp is any good compared to shields if you don't have some mod to heal you and/or mitigate the damage further.

[Rydian]

So, what exactly do people who complain about shields being too bad want them to be? Or what kind of mods you want for shields.

 

Giving passive proc resistance based on your shields would be stupid. Make a mod to do that instead. It's not like hp is any good compared to shields if you don't have some mod to heal you and/or mitigate the damage further.

Well, armor applies to health but not shields, rage only works on health damage but not shield damage, etc.

 

I think people just want attacks to not bypass shields.

[Naftal]

Well, armor applies to health but not shields, rage only works on health damage but not shield damage, etc.

 

I think people just want attacks to not bypass shields.

But shields have huge base regen and Guardian/Protect.

 

Also Retribution, but it's kinda crap. Buffing it to useful and making other mods such as that would be nice and they'd buff the usefulness of shields.

[Rydian]

But shields have huge base regen and Guardian/Protect.

 

Also Retribution, but it's kinda crap. Buffing it to useful and making other mods such as that would be nice and they'd buff the usefulness of shields.

The complaint is that shield stats don't matter at all when they're totally bypassed.

 

Shields can cause you to fart Mirage's acid rainbow beams of death every time they get damaged, but that wouldn't stop damage from going through shields from killing you (poison especially) when they're still up.

 

If there was a mod that made poison and all DoTs damage shields instead of health... then it'd be the next Serration.

 

This is something that should be fixed in game mechanics, not the addition of another mod.

[StinkyPygmy]

The complaint is that shield stats don't matter at all when they're totally bypassed.

 

Shields can cause you to fart Mirage's acid rainbow beams of death every time they get damaged, but that wouldn't stop damage from going through shields from killing you (poison especially) when they're still up.

 

If there was a mod that made poison and all DoTs damage shields instead of health... then it'd be the next Serration.

 

This is something that should be fixed in game mechanics, not the addition of another mod.

So what you really want is shield bypassing dmg to be removed effectively?

I'm not sure I'm behind that. Poison is the only significant shield bypassing dmg 90% of the time and slash is hit and miss. There there are so many ways to counter the dmg. Lvl 35 Grineer still only do around 1 or 2 dmg per tick on slash procs and thats on banshee with 15 armor. I'm all for shields getting a bit more depth added but shield bypassing dmg isn't really a problem. Occasionally it will ruin your day if  if you are careless but thats it.

We don't need more ways to make us invincible by ignoring a game mechanic and having it only apply to the enemy.

[Azawarau]

The complaint is that shield stats don't matter at all when they're totally bypassed.

 

Shields can cause you to fart Mirage's acid rainbow beams of death every time they get damaged, but that wouldn't stop damage from going through shields from killing you (poison especially) when they're still up.

 

If there was a mod that made poison and all DoTs damage shields instead of health... then it'd be the next Serration.

 

This is something that should be fixed in game mechanics, not the addition of another mod.

I think shield bypassing mechanics are fine

 

The problem is shields themselves being terrible against things that dont eve bypass shields

[Rydian]

So what you really want is shield bypassing dmg to be removed effectively?

Hi, welcome to the thread. :P  That's a core reason "shields are bad" (to quote the title).  They are not a buffer/deflector for damage in general like they're assumed to be (based on the name and the way "shields" are treated elsewhere).

 

 

I'm not sure I'm behind that. Poison is the only significant shield bypassing dmg 90% of the time and slash is hit and miss.

Seems to be situational, people have varying encounters with it.

 

I'm only mildly annoyed by bleed damage, I've only been bled to death through my shields once or twice, and that was against Grineer ~10 levels above me (Eviscerators mainly).  That said, the idea is "I dodged damage before it broke my shield, I should not be penalized with health damage anyways even though I avoided my shield being broken".

 

For me, poison damage is the real annoyance.  Fartsprays in particular were notorious when they first came out... not because of the base damage numerically or that it was an AoE, but that it bypassed shields which means it killed far more than the base damage numbers would have indicated.  DE has since lowered the damage to around 25% of the original numbers because players were getting killed way too often and way too fast because it bypassed shields (so their effective life pool versus the attacks was far less).

 

 

There there are so many ways to counter the dmg..

No there aren't.  Only three frames can do that (Trinity, Saryn, and Oberon), and the latter two only do it recently (Saryn's Molt removing procs is a change within U14, as is Oberon's Hallowed Ground removing procs).  Saryn only does it to herself, too.

 

As for defensive mods, there is no defense against slash damage, and the Antitoxin mod doesn't actually have the damage mitigation it says it does on the card.

 

If you're talking healing (reactive to the damage caused by the proc and not countering the initial damage or proc itself), one specific damage type should not influence the frame taken.  The frame taken should be based on the type of mission and the player's play style.

 

 

Lvl 35 Grineer still only do around 1 or 2 dmg per tick on slash procs and thats on banshee with 15 armor.

Which in particular?  We might need some video comparisons, the people doing the most complaining about bleed might be fighting different enemies or be in a different situation.

 

 

I'm all for shields getting a bit more depth added but shield bypassing dmg isn't really a problem. Occasionally it will ruin your day if  if you are careless but thats it.

As I mentioned above, it's enough of a problem to cause DE to reduce one enemy's damage to ~25% of their original strength, because poison damage...

 

1 - Attacks through shields, meaning a player's "life pool" is cut in half towards those attacks.

2 - Does 150% of the damage it otherwise should do, because flesh has an innate weakness to poison that is unrelated to the shield bypassing.

 

So let's say I'm Excalibur with 500 shields and 500 health.  Normally it'll take around ~1000 damage to kill me.  However if the attacks are poison, it only takes one-third of that (~333 poison damage) to kill me.  This is because Warframes take 150% damage from poison attacks (as Warframes have living flesh right under the shield, no armor layer) and the attack only damages the critical half of the life pool.

 

And that's a problem.

 

 

We don't need more ways to make us invincible by ignoring a game mechanic and having it only apply to the enemy.

1 - This is not about invincibility, this is about stopping unfair deaths.  It's unfair enough that, as I mentioned, specific enemies were nerfed into the ground by DE for their ability to inflict certain death on players regardless of difficulty or defenses.

 

2 - I'm not saying it should only apply to the enemy.  Using poison on a weapon to take most corpus is kind of cheap and unrewarding.  The damage table applies to both enemies and players (part of the reason poison is so bad), if poison doesn't go through a player's shield than it would no longer go through Corpus shields either.  And I would prefer that.

[Naftal]

Well, all poison is easily dodgeable by player actions except for venomous eximus procs.

 

So this is just about slash procs and venomous eximus procs then?

[Rydian]

Well, all poison is easily dodgeable by player actions except for venomous eximus procs.

 

So this is just about slash procs and venomous eximus procs then?

For me specifically, it's about poison hitting through shields for extra damage on top of that.

Fartspreys were the biggest wake-up call.

 

"You can dodge it" does not mean that a damage unbalance can be ignored.  If Corpus laser bullets all 1-hit players, would that be fine because they're slower-moving projectiles and can be dodged?

[Azawarau]

For me specifically, it's about poison hitting through shields for extra damage on top of that.

Fartspreys were the biggest wake-up call.

 

"You can dodge it" does not mean that a damage unbalance can be ignored.  If Corpus laser bullets all 1-hit players, would that be fine because they're slower-moving projectiles and can be dodged?

Ospreys are weak and slow with their clouds

 

As soon as you kill them they go away as well

[Rydian]

Ospreys are weak and slow with their clouds

 

As soon as you kill them they go away as well

They're easy enough to deal with now now, they were not when they were released, which is what I'm referencing.

 

Now they wait twice as long before charging, they do ~25% of the damage they used to do, their DoT proc was weakened (don't remember how, perhaps total duration), and their charge distance is less.

[Azawarau]

They're easy enough to deal with now now, they were not when they were released, which is what I'm referencing.

 

Now they wait twice as long before charging, they do ~25% of the damage they used to do, their DoT proc was weakened (don't remember how, perhaps total duration), and their charge distance is less.

First off they werent that bad to begin with and are hardly a threat now

 

Second it was changed so theres no reason to complain about it now

[RealPandemonium]

They're easy enough to deal with now now, they were not when they were released, which is what I'm referencing.

 

Now they wait twice as long before charging, they do ~25% of the damage they used to do, their DoT proc was weakened (don't remember how, perhaps total duration), and their charge distance is less.

thanks weenies

[Azawarau]

thanks weenies

Youve been acting awfully strange recently

[StinkyPygmy]

Hi, welcome to the thread. :P  That's a core reason "shields are bad" (to quote the title).  They are not a buffer/deflector for damage in general like they're assumed to be (based on the name and the way "shields" are treated elsewhere).

 

 

Seems to be situational, people have varying encounters with it.

 

I'm only mildly annoyed by bleed damage, I've only been bled to death through my shields once or twice, and that was against Grineer ~10 levels above me (Eviscerators mainly).  That said, the idea is "I dodged damage before it broke my shield, I should not be penalized with health damage anyways even though I avoided my shield being broken".

 

For me, poison damage is the real annoyance.  Fartsprays in particular were notorious when they first came out... not because of the base damage numerically or that it was an AoE, but that it bypassed shields which means it killed far more than the base damage numbers would have indicated.  DE has since lowered the damage to around 25% of the original numbers because players were getting killed way too often and way too fast because it bypassed shields (so their effective life pool versus the attacks was far less).

 

 

No there aren't.  Only three frames can do that (Trinity, Saryn, and Oberon), and the latter two only do it recently (Saryn's Molt removing procs is a change within U14, as is Oberon's Hallowed Ground removing procs).  Saryn only does it to herself, too.

 

As for defensive mods, there is no defense against slash damage, and the Antitoxin mod doesn't actually have the damage mitigation it says it does on the card.

 

If you're talking healing (reactive to the damage caused by the proc and not countering the initial damage or proc itself), one specific damage type should not influence the frame taken.  The frame taken should be based on the type of mission and the player's play style.

 

 

Which in particular?  We might need some video comparisons, the people doing the most complaining about bleed might be fighting different enemies or be in a different situation.

 

 

As I mentioned above, it's enough of a problem to cause DE to reduce one enemy's damage to ~25% of their original strength, because poison damage...

 

1 - Attacks through shields, meaning a player's "life pool" is cut in half towards those attacks.

2 - Does 150% of the damage it otherwise should do, because flesh has an innate weakness to poison that is unrelated to the shield bypassing.

 

So let's say I'm Excalibur with 500 shields and 500 health.  Normally it'll take around ~1000 damage to kill me.  However if the attacks are poison, it only takes one-third of that (~333 poison damage) to kill me.  This is because Warframes take 150% damage from poison attacks (as Warframes have living flesh right under the shield, no armor layer) and the attack only damages the critical half of the life pool.

 

And that's a problem.

 

 

1 - This is not about invincibility, this is about stopping unfair deaths.  It's unfair enough that, as I mentioned, specific enemies were nerfed into the ground by DE for their ability to inflict certain death on players regardless of difficulty or defenses.

 

2 - I'm not saying it should only apply to the enemy.  Using poison on a weapon to take most corpus is kind of cheap and unrewarding.  The damage table applies to both enemies and players (part of the reason poison is so bad), if poison doesn't go through a player's shield than it would no longer go through Corpus shields either.  And I would prefer that.

I've been on this thread for a while... Its a big thread. Easy mistake.

Obviously is all heavily opinion based but with things like antitoxin and steel fiber along with certain frame abilities then yeah, we have a lot of tools to counter it. I can't agree with it being unfair as poison is arguably weak (especially when they nerfed Mutalists) and avoidable. Slash dmg is harder to avoid but rather weak. I just don't see it as unfair because its either easy to avoid and can only be blamed on your mistakes or is negligible. If you know its a problem for you anti toxin will do you wonders. The right modding set up and the right equipment will see you though. 

 

We have the tools to counter it, we have the knowledge to avoid it. What more do you want?

Personally shield by passing dmg rarely kills me or matters. I don't even avoid poison clouds as banshee. Don't often bother with anti toxin or vitality either. High level infested? It still seems to matter very little. Two mechanics on the whole game (and its logical that they can bypass shields) can do it. So it doesn't make shields redundant by any means. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[RealPandemonium]

Youve been acting awfully strange recently

I can't take it seriously any more when people ask to make the game easier than it already is.  The Overheat fan club is already enough of a headache.

Edited October 16, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Rydian]

First off they werent that bad to begin with

When they first came out they were inflicting certain death on players with their DoT.  As in, their DoT was ticking down 8 ticks totaling more damage than the health that any frame in the game could have... outside of Rhino's Iron Skin.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249354-these-new-ospreys-are-too-strong/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249360-mutalist-osprey-is-devastating-to-squishy-frames-like-loki-and-even-armored-frames-like-frost/

 

... because it was poison damage and ignored shields.  If it was another typed of damage (say, corrosive) it would not have been nearly as deadly (for numerical reasons I pointed out earlier).

 

Second it was changed so theres no reason to complain about it now

I'm using them, as they were in the past, as an example for why poison damage is unbalanced.  If they dealt any other kind of damage they would not have had nearly as bad of an effect on players.

 

 

I've been on this thread for a while... Its a big thread. Easy mistake.

Obviously is all heavily opinion based but with things like antitoxin and steel fiber along with certain frame abilities then yeah, we have a lot of tools to counter it. I can't agree with it being unfair as poison is arguably weak (especially when they nerfed Mutalists) and avoidable. Slash dmg is harder to avoid but rather weak. I just don't see it as unfair because its either easy to avoid and can only be blamed on your mistakes or is negligible. If you know its a problem for you anti toxin will do you wonders. The right modding set up and the right equipment will see you though. 

 

We have the tools to counter it, we have the knowledge to avoid it. What more do you want?

Personally shield by passing dmg rarely kills me or matters. I don't even avoid poison clouds as banshee. Don't often bother with anti toxin or vitality either. High level infested? It still seems to matter very little. Two mechanics on the whole game (and its logical that they can bypass shields) can do it. So it doesn't make shields redundant by any means. 

Do you mind taking a look back through my post real quick?  Antitoxin doesn't actually perform as well as what the mod card says it does (and what people assume it does based on the stats the card says), and I provided a link to a thread discussing the difference between the stats on the card and the actual effects in-game.

[StinkyPygmy]

When they first came out they were inflicting certain death on players with their DoT.  As in, their DoT was ticking down 8 ticks totaling more damage than the health that any frame in the game could have... outside of Rhino's Iron Skin.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249354-these-new-ospreys-are-too-strong/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249360-mutalist-osprey-is-devastating-to-squishy-frames-like-loki-and-even-armored-frames-like-frost/

 

... because it was poison damage and ignored shields.  If it was another typed of damage (say, corrosive) it would not have been nearly as deadly (for numerical reasons I pointed out earlier).

 

I'm using them, as they were in the past, as an example for why poison damage is unbalanced.  If they dealt any other kind of damage they would not have had nearly as bad of an effect on players.

 

 

Do you mind taking a look back through my post real quick?  Antitoxin doesn't actually perform as well as what the mod card says it does (and what people assume it does based on the stats the card says), and I provided a link to a thread discussing the difference between the stats on the card and the actual effects in-game.

Well I'm running on my experience using antitoxin. If it is capable of standing up to a toxic ancients poison breath attack (one of the few but easily avoidable instances where poison can be a death sentence) and keeping the player alive then it is more then enough. Bug or no bug.

[Retrikaethan]

i never used shields ever since they had iced areas which halve your shields (that is to say, as soon as i learned they did that). i always thought of that as the one reason that i just don't bother with shields. as time goes on, i just find more and more reasons to hate them because of how crap they are. seriously, there's no good reason to use shields over hp. especially not when you can use life strike/equilibrium+quick thinking+rage there's just no good reason. shields are, at best, a buffer between bullets and health and they still have a hard time doing even that. there are thousands of things you could do that would make shields awesome and i honestly would love to see some of those in warframe.

 

(an example could be that while shields are not empty, new procs which affect health only do not have any effect on you. this would make corrosive, gas, viral, toxin, and slash [radiation too?] completely worthless until you've smashed the shields away which would add a useful aspect to shields without otherwise changing how they work now. hell you could even make this a mod and it would be used. basically make the threshhold for the effect to stop taking place. so like drop from 75%, to 60%, to 45% to 30% to 15% to 0%. boom, 5 rank rare mod.)

[Rydian]

Well I'm running on my experience using antitoxin. If it is capable of standing up to a toxic ancients poison breath attack (one of the few but easily avoidable instances where poison can be a death sentence) and keeping the player alive then it is more then enough. Bug or no bug.

Yeah, that's one of the few insta-death attacks left in the game.

 

However, "easily-avoidable" assumes that you were not hooked, and/or you're not a slower frame.  Getting hooked as a slower frame means you often get them sneezing on you before you can recover and move out of the attack range.

 

Also, toxic ancients?  They grant all infested around them poison damage.  Meaning those infested attacks suddenly ignore your shields and attack health directly.  This was mentioned earlier in the thread but I'm mentioning it again because I think it may have been forgotten.