Excavation Needs Tutorial, And To Become Easier (New Players Dying Left, And Right)

[Arlayn]

I have been playing Excavation on Venus lately, and all I see are these new players dropping dead left, and right. I mean its VENUS. Why is it so hard for them? Well I watched these new players. They kept dropping dead for one during the very beginning (which is an obvious sign DE needs to make the Excavation on Venus easier. Told you all it was a bad event that was too hard). Two well they obviously have no idea what to do. They just ran around shooting at everything, and were never anywhere near the objectives. They never picked up reactors. They never powered anything. They were always some where else on he map fighting, or activating excavators before anyone can come over and help protect them. I had to bring my A game just to balance new players, and help them to ACTUALLY WIN. If it wasn't for me they would have been bulldozed into none-Existence forget the void... just imagine dust... Not even dust... just imagine thin air.

 

I feel Excavation needs its difficulty decreased on Venus for newer players, and far better tutorial that explains how to do this mission. New players shouldn't be struggling so violently on Venus.

 

[zavienh5]

so that means u didnt do the event.....

[GottaGoFast]

Shhh...my common sense is tingling...

[trieuazn0]

i think this has the same case with the interception problem, theres so much mobs spawning at once, for older players, its fun to just to pull out the gorgan and mow them down, but for newer players, its too hard for them

 

ive also notice how the maps are quiet large, during the event, it shinked to about 3-4 different maps, now its like 8-9, having to run all over the place

[Arlayn]

so that means u didnt do the event.....

I did it up to the mods, and left. I consider it insane, and inhumane to stay long enough for the skin, and latron wraith. As a whole the event was a nightmare. I consider it the hardest mission type in the game. Its downright wrong these new players have to suffer something like this. This is going to bring bad rep for Warframe.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

i think this has the same case with the interception problem, theres so much mobs spawning at once, for older players, its fun to just to pull out the gorgan and mow them down, but for newer players, its too hard for them

 

ive also notice how the maps are quiet large, during the event, it shinked to about 3-4 different maps, now its like 8-9, having to run all over the place

As a semi-noob, I can remember with clarity being crushed on Mercury's Interception mission.  I know it's not supposed to be easy, but really? MERCURY is that tough?  I haven't tried excavation yet, and I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't.

[Dromeos-Prime]

The event is actually one of the easiest and most fun i've played, it took me a total of Two Runs, one on earth and one on europa.

[Paradoxbomb]

It's not so much that it's a bad gameplay mode, in fact I'd say it's the best one so far. The only issue is that unlike the majority of the other game modes where it's pretty straightforward and teamwork isn't even all that necessary, Excavation actually requires a game plan in order to stay a long time (or at least enough coordination with your team to travel together in order to provide ample defense/power for the extractors).

 

But I definitely agree that Excavation is a mission type that could use a tutorial to help new players get a grasp on how the main scanner and extractor deployment work.

 

 

EDIT: If DE intends to continue the trend of giving us missions with actual depth/strategy, perhaps the "tutorial" could be integrated as a quest.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[Arlayn]

The event is actually one of the easiest and most fun i've played, it took me a total of Two Runs, one on earth and one on europa.

The most fun, and easiest would be Gradivus Dilemma, Breeding grounds, and Gate Crasher. Cryotic was pure evil I doubt the newer players were even able to enjoy, or benefit from it. I don't want to see new players dropping dead, unable to fully enjoy the game. That isnt how a game should be from the very start of the game. People will have beaten the first event. Gone through mercury hit Venus. Moment they try to play around, and beat everything on Venus (which should be easy) they will hit this nightmare of a mission, and just get mowed down. You need seriously hardcore mods, gear, and have a maxed out warframe. I also suggest the Rage, and quick thinking combo. I nearly dropped dead several times if it wasnt for that combo. I have all the gear in the game, BUT the latron wraith, and detron. I even am Mastery rank 17. I still struggle violently with the event, and mission type. Even on Venus. Its absolutely unenjoyable. If I struggle. Then new players will be murdered guarantee.

[Morec0]

Cryotic was the most fun out of ALL the events. The talk between Ruk and Alad might have been fun to listen to, but in the end it was just another extermination mission. Breeding Grounds was just another sabotage mission and Gate Crasher (though I love Sprag with all my Void-infused heart) was the same.

 

If the numbers need to be toned down, they need to be toned down. I noticed the same problem with interception back when it was released, it's just a simple number tweak to regulate it for those areas. In terms of actual mission design, though, Excavation is one of my favorites and DEFIANTLY isn't as bad a mission design as you want to brand it.

[Zsar]

This was the very first event since introduction of Survival game mode that I actually found easy. Getting all three reward tiers was a matter of three games and not a chore at all (I abandoned the Avalanche Offensive because it became boring at ~60/100).

 

What to do is so utterly crystal clear, that not a single word of advice should be necessary. But mayhap that is just my impression, as a gamer since 1992 - mayhap I do have seen it all.

 

But seriously, there is the Wiki and there is a skill called "learning from example". There is a "Players help Players" subforum.

... I have not yet played a non-event Excavation (about to do so), but I would be somewhat surprised if this were the first mission type wherein Lotus does not tell you again and again and again, no matter just how often you have heard it already just what has to be done.

 

When I was done with the event, there was a lot of time left and a great chance to farm Void Keys. So I returned to Earth...

My first visit there had been lucky enough to be blessed with people who grasped the concept and had an interest to win. A true joy of play that jaded old me had not deemed possible from a (public matchmode) MMO experience.

My second visit was spoiled by exactly the kind of player behaviour the OP describes. Disgusted, I went to gather my keys solo.

 

tl;dr: Not reading the manual qualifies for failure.

--

Disclaimer: None of this post judges the difficulty of the actual missions as currently presented. The event missions felt nicely balanced but DE stated that re-balance had been done. This may of course have translated into harder-than-event missions.

It is also an obvious truth that choice of Warframe and weapons will effect difficulty extremely.

It is also an obvious truth that enemy spawn rate has a definite value, which once exceeded renders progress impossible (for lack of effective means of mass destruction).

Edited October 9, 2014 by Zsar

[Arlayn]

Cryotic was the most fun out of ALL the events. The talk between Ruk and Alad might have been fun to listen to, but in the end it was just another extermination mission. Breeding Grounds was just another sabotage mission and Gate Crasher (though I love Sprag with all my Void-infused heart) was the same.

 

If the numbers need to be toned down, they need to be toned down. I noticed the same problem with interception back when it was released, it's just a simple number tweak to regulate it for those areas. In terms of actual mission design, though, Excavation is one of my favorites and DEFIANTLY isn't as bad a mission design as you want to brand it.

Maybe you should randomly join missions on Venus Excavation when you get the chance. Watch how the new players handle the mission. Watch the new players... If you claim it isn't as bad then you need to see the stuff I have seen. Its truly Hell...

[Morec0]

Maybe you should randomly join missions on Venus Excavation when you get the chance. Watch how the new players handle the mission. Watch the new players... If you claim it isn't as bad then you need to see the stuff I have seen. Its truly Hell...

 

Have you considered talking to them and instructing them on what to do? I assumed you had, but your emphasis on the idea of just "watch"ing them has me a little concerned my assumptions were incorrect.

 

I wasn't aware there WERE Venus Excavations, but I will indeed join some when I get the chance and help TEACH the new players what to do. Because that is a responsibility of the older players of any multiplayer game - to help the new ones learn.

[LukeAura]

Well, according to the hot topic poll, Cryotic was one of the most fun events. So it's certainly wasn't bad, or at least, that's just differing opinions. 

Although I if people aren't picking up power cells to recharge the excavators that just seems like they're not listening to the Lotus when she tells you to do it. I would believe it if they went to the wrong Excavators because that's a little bit harder to discern in the middle of combat. 

And damage numbers/enemy spawn rates just need to be toned down a little on low planets if they're dying that fast. I'll have to try it tonight though, I actually happen to have a low ranked Warframe just sitting around waiting to be levelled so it'll be a decent test. 

[Arlayn]

Have you considered talking to them and instructing them on what to do? I assumed you had, but your emphasis on the idea of just "watch"ing them has me a little concerned my assumptions were incorrect.

 

I wasn't aware there WERE Venus Excavations, but I will indeed join some when I get the chance and help TEACH the new players what to do. Because that is a responsibility of the older players of any multiplayer game - to help the new ones learn.

I did instruct them. Every bit of the way. They seemed confused. I tell them bring me three energy containers. They run around randomly killing things never picking things up, and then get overrun DURING THE FIRST drill, and killed. I get three energy containers on the drill, and don't need them anymore. I tell them get the energy bring it to the scanner. They eventually did grab energy, but brought it to the drill that didn't need the energy at all. Then I had to single handedly grab energy, and bring it to the scanner. Imagine repeating this throughout the entire mission. That is what happens during the entire thing with new players, and managed to get them far enough to get us 1200 cryotics. I had enemies of every kind of the Corpus on us coming from every direction. I brought them very far. However they don't seem to get the concept as easily.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Arlayn

[Arlayn]

Well, according to the hot topic poll, Cryotic was one of the most fun events. So it's certainly wasn't bad, or at least, that's just differing opinions. 

Although I if people aren't picking up power cells to recharge the excavators that just seems like they're not listening to the Lotus when she tells you to do it. I would believe it if they went to the wrong Excavators because that's a little bit harder to discern in the middle of combat. 

And damage numbers/enemy spawn rates just need to be toned down a little on low planets if they're dying that fast. I'll have to try it tonight though, I actually happen to have a low ranked Warframe just sitting around waiting to be levelled so it'll be a decent test. 

you have to consider new players DO NOT always come to the forums. Infact there are more players than there are people posting on the forums. Consider that for a moment, and realize those hundreds of thousands of players out there who do not use the forums. AT ALL. We have no idea if those hundreds of thousands liked it or not 100%.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Arlayn

[Zsar]

I am back from Malva, Venus. Lotus does tell the player what to do.
Not listening is stupid: Does it not seem logical to everyone of you, that not doing what is necessary to win, will obviously make winning impossible?

 

I left at three Excavators, and have this to write about difficulty:
- enemy spawn rate is a tad high, but in line with the event rate; for Venus it probably should be lower than it is

- Excavator health still does not scale with progress. This provides a definite cut-off point in progress, where a single enemy (say, Detron armed) may destroy one in an eye blink. This was criticised in the event, too.

- With the tutorial mods introduced since U14, this mission should be bearable by a team but will be very hard on solo newbies. Unless enemy spawn rate is tied to Conclave, in this case it should be a walk in the park (cannot effectively test right now for lack of gear and cred).

Edited October 9, 2014 by Zsar

[Arlayn]

I am back from Malva, Venus. Lotus does tell the player what to do.

Not listening is stupid: Does it not seem logical to everyone of you, that not doing what is necessary to win, will obviously make winning impossible?

 

I left at three Excavators, and have this to write about difficulty:

- enemy spawn rate is a tad high, but in line with the event rate; for Venus it probably should be lower than it is

- Excavator health still does not scale with progress. This provides a definite cut-off point in progress, where a single enemy (say, Detron armed) may destroy one in an eye blink. This was criticised in the event, too.

- With the tutorial mods introduced since U14, this mission should be bearable by a team but will be very hard on solo newbies. Unless enemy spawn rate is tied to Conclave, in this case it should be a walk in the park (cannot effectively test right now for lack of gear and cred).

To a player who has played the game a long time, and has a grasp on the game it is easy to understand. Even though the first time I played it during the event I didn't get it. Even after reading the post on it. I was absolutely lost. I had no idea what I was doing the first time during the event. I didn't understand what they meant by scanner, drill, power cores... It was gibberish to me. For new players not used to the game. Getting into it, and all. They have to get into this very jarring environment. I can imagine players struggling to understand what is going on if they are just getting into the game. This is something "THAT MUST BE CONSIDERED". When considering "NEW PLAYERS".

[Zsar]

But... these things have names. You do realise that they are named accordingly? If you point your crosshairs over the scanner, it will display "Excavation Scanner". On the left there is a telemetry block for this very thing. It needs power. Enemies drop power cores. Bring power cores to where power is needed.

 

... How much simpler can it be!?

 

At the first try, I was unpleasantly surprised that the things would slurp cores out of my hands instead of being docilely 'E'-activated, so I did not get this right either, but this is a detail that did not impact my ability to succeed.

 

Mayhap I am spoiled. I learned to play The Settlers before I was able to read, I had no manual, and the pictograms are not all quite discernable. It took me years to recognise the sausages for what they were.

- But I managed. This is not The Settlers, this is much simpler.

 

There are only four parts to this mission. Four parts! To put it into perspective, the base game already has that many: weapon, ordnance, enemy, life+shield.

Here it is scanner+extractor+core+carrier.

How many combinations of these items can one imagine?
Kill a big git, see the shiny thingy drop.
Relation one.

Try to walk over the shiny thingy, note pick-up button. Try out because why not!
Relation two.

Walk towards the "Scanner" doodad because it does not work - oops, the shiny thingy is gone and the doodad works!
Relation three.

Get objective on mini-map. Objective means "go there". Go there.

Extractor thingumajig drops from the sky. Dangit, more weird stuff.

Now, recall: Doodad eats Shiny Thingy for Power. Thingumajig needs power too. Revolutionary thought: Try to feed Shiny Thingy into Thingumajig.

Oh, cool: It also restores shields for the Thingumajig. ... So what now. Cool, countdown. Let us wait and see what happens when it finishes!
Relation four. The concept has been completely grasped at this point.

Gotta mod, gotta mod, hell yeah! ... And the exit is open too. Dang, we are good.

Victory.

... If that fails, one could always... ask?

 

Mmh, mayhap I should read more carefully. Mayhap there is meaning in the word "Gibberish"? Mayhap this is the root cause of the problem. Mayhap it is not obvious that things have names which hint at their function.

Let us assume for a moment that I were unable to comprehend the english language.

- I am presented with the object "Scanner". I look up "Scanner", for example on www.leo.org .

- All the german translations are inapplicable.

- I shorten the word to its root: "scan". I look up "scan".

- I find two viable matches: "to seek", "to test". A "Scanner" seeks for things.

- I am presented with the word "Power". It is attached to a numeric variable which decreases, while another numerical variable decreases much faster. Both stop when "Power" runs out. Objectives are presented when the other value runs out and it resets at once.

- I go to objectives. They are icons, nothing to misunderstand here.

- I am presented with the object "Excavator". I look it up and note that the first hit is significant: "digger (for something in something)".

- Same correlation between the two values as with the scanner. Nothing new to learn here.

- Special enemies, which cannot be found in any other mission drop special items, which cannot be found in any other mission.

- I notice that both enemy and item have the word "Power" in their name. I already know the word "Power". I bring "Power" to where I need "Power".

- As soon as the item is consumed I know how to play. Without language competency beyond recognising a single word's root.

... As you can see here, my grasp on the english language is strenuous: I have no idea whether "numeric" or "numerical" is the correct usage in the occurences above.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Zsar

[Neocyberman]

I don't think I understand the concern. I'm using a penta and a rhino for this, and I've never played it before. I actually didnt fire my penta and just used my cestra. So I get in there, on earth, and I try this for the first time... and I succeed. Why?

 

Unlike a mode like Dark Sector this mode has the lotus talking you through what to do in clear words. "This scanner is picking up artefacts protect it and power it with power cells" "The extractor is ready go to it and power/protect it" "The extractor worked here is a reward."

 

From my perspective it doesnt seem hard at all and I got a ton of resources the first time. Something that was brought up in this thread was lowering enemy count but this is something critical to the mode.

 

I would go so far as to say that more missions should require more attention from the player for similar rewards. In excavation your rewards directly correlate to your teamwork and your actions in the mission. Moreso than any other mode. It combines the knowledge and skill you build doing all the other mission types (Carry objectives, defend machinery, pick out enemies to prioritize, move as a team).

 

Should it be easier on the first few planets? Yeah. But the mode as it is is near perfect.

[Shoesington]

As a long time player of Warframe, I am of the opinion this is the most fun I've had playing in a long time. Tons of enemies dropping tons of resources and mods with plentiful rewards in the form of keys that are otherwise difficult to farm. Don't change a thing DE. As for OP, quit whining.

[MechaTails]

@Zsar: Everyone doesn't learn the same things at the same rate, nor does everyone have common sense, like looking at the names of things. Some people don't even read. Many people can't connect dots.

 

It's unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world, I explained quickly to a few new players what to do and they got it. I told them exactly what Lotus says, it seems like players simply dont read any NPC dialogue.

[carnalKaiser]

Pubs will be pubs. You could have a map that consisted of an enormous arrow pointing towards an enormous pit of free mods, and you'd still have people getting stuck on the level geometry and disconnecting because they have to plough the fields (no offense to any agriculturists out there) until the session shuts down due to host migration. Naturally every gamemode should have easier and harder mission nodes, but remember that the difficulty scales upward the longer you stick around. It's all about taking that risk and pushing just a bit further to score that sweet and well-deserved loot.

I disagree completely with you claiming that the game mode is difficult, though. If you pick randoms that don't know how to play then sure, but get a gaggle of good people and you'll be raking in the rewards like there's no tomorrow. To call it "insane" and "inhumane" is just ridiculous. If anything Warframe needs to be harder and more challenging, to allow for greater advanced gameplay. The baby step period is carried out with Vor's Prize, you're expected to be able to finish a mission by yourself without too much difficulty.
I don't see how an experienced Warframe player like yourself would ever struggle with the mission objectives, as you claim to have been.
It's fairly straightforward and some basic logic dictates how to play the mission according to the instructions.
Don't get me wrong, I did pretty badly during the Cryotic Front (as shown below), but my team helped me out plenty of times when I was in a pinch.
Posting my score to illustrate my point about the event.

I get what you're somewhat trying to say about conveyance, but that can sometimes clash with the overall gameplay experience.
You can't be spoonfed all the way to the endgame. As Zsar said, "Not reading the manual qualifies for failure."

[_mangomen_]

As a long time player of Warframe, I am of the opinion this is the most fun I've had playing in a long time. Tons of enemies dropping tons of resources and mods with plentiful rewards in the form of keys that are otherwise difficult to farm. Don't change a thing DE. As for OP, quit whining.

 

Could not agree more! Finally a new mode that's fun and got me back into the game again. Just went through it on Venus with two friends and had a blast. Went through the letters almost 3 times before it started getting crazy, just using Volt (un-potatoed) and Brakk (un-formad). It's great to be in some open areas where coptering and speed doesn't get you stuck on the terrain. Most fun I've had in this casino/farming game in quite some time. My only complaint is that it took this long to add this mode back in.

 

Also

[TheWiseIdiot]

If only all modes had this many enemies. It's really great when things get intense.