The Overkill Grineer.

[Tr1ples1xer]

I am happy with the changes, have enjoyed fighting the Grinner much more, but...

I accept that the difficulty is not something easily counteracted when they proc, hitscan, swarm, etc.

 

I would love to see a mechanic where their accuracy diminishes if you are on the move.

Just Cause 2 had a similar mechanic, stand in place and shoot, they will locate and shoot you quickly.

Relocate, move around, use the environment, and they were less accurate.

 

I'd like the agile nature of Warframes to be our counter, not a nerf to the enemy.

Make the players play better.

 

I'm not saying "git gud", I'm saying make us use rolls, slides and jumps to survive.

If I sprint round a corner and slide past a group of Grineer they should be taking a second to turn and locate me again.

If I am rolling I should take less incoming fire, and sliding should reduce Grineer accuracy (I'm a smaller fast moving target).

 

^ This is why I have always liked fighting Corpus, projectile weapons simulate what I want in a different way.

Against Corpus movement can remove a massive chunk of the threat.

Exactly our agility/movement/parkour is our best counter, its not normal I get killed way up in the air while trying to evade enemy fire with my parkour skills.

[Liminal]

Walls and room clearing powers are the best defence actually.

[Sylaenius]

I'd prefer to see the Grineer have a rank-and-file synergy introduced between units and their utility powers. As they stand now, you can tell that was the intention, but it falls a bit flat. Maybe DE is afraid of scaring off new players, or alienating a certain crowd of players, but honestly, Warframe needs to pick a style and own it.

 

 

Seekers have the Kraken, and deploy latchers. The mistake here is that damage has been made the focus of a utility/support enemy. The Kraken is a high calibur, low fire rate, mid-range pistol. Latchers are small, fast moving, homing sticky grenades. It would make more sense for Seekers to then mimmick Elite Lancers in HP and Armor (As they are a special/elite unit) while having the Kraken stagger/stun a target and soften it's shields. The shield softening comes from the Krakens powerful shots but slow rate of fire, ergo a softener, not a killer. The stagger comes from the fact that the Kraken is a rather large bore-round, a hand cannon if you will.

 

This opens up the Latcher to latch staggered/stunned targets, and softened shields gives the latcher potential to soften further or ultimately kill the target. Explosions also stagger/stun/knockdown. This facilitates more Latchers or other utility units getting their time to shine, or opens up the target to momentary cross fire by other units. This changes the landscape by being dangerous and potentially lethal if your tactics and play do not adjust.

 

Following this line of logic and applying it to a Napalm or Bombard, for the sake of brevity I'll use a Napalm; The Napalm has it's rate of fire slowed to roughly every 1.8 - 2.5 seconds with a max of 4 rounds per clip and a reload of 5-8 seconds, it's focal damage (Damage within round burst radius)  is increased, as is the "Area Denial" of the napalm. The napalm round functions on an unguided arc much like an M40 nade launcher, it's firing has a distinct sound and so does the round's bouncing. Additionally the round functions on a 0.9 second fuse and it pulses in faster succession the closer it is to detonating.

 

Combined with a group of 7-12 Lancers, 3 Power fists, Two Seekers and a Napalm, you now have to manage the field of battle intelligently and endeavor to apply more strategy than 'Run straight ahead into the line of fire and spam my primary fire button". Instead you may have to slow to a trot and A.D.S. the Napalm or one/both Seekers and prioritize fire on them before brutally murdering everything not-tenno in the room.

 

Granted if those two changes were implemented alone, it would be a tad imbalanced and gameplay may end up paralyzingly hard, devolving into a swarm of Latchers and being perpetually staggerlocked. Why do you think Fart Osprey's needed to be nerfed? They were actually a pretty well made enemy, they however did not fit well into the endless hoard of same-y Infested that crowded around you by the forties and fifties and prevented you from having any situational awareness or ability to move in an undulated meat-wall of poorly balanced mobs.

 

The entire set of enemies types need to be at the very least re-balanced, and in more than a few cases, completely re-done.

[Hatzeputt]

Well giving them near perfect aim + almost guaranteed bleed dot makes running higher level Grineer missions tedious, not challenging, just tedious for solo running or just a 2 men team if you are not Loki, Ash etc....even in a group of 4.

 

Super accuracy + bleed dot + high damage even negates the agility trait of the Tenno since you will get hit no matter how fast you move how much you try to dodge and use cover since some dude or dudette especially dudettes can snipe you across the room regardless unless you stealth around invisible mode.

 

I think someone went overboard with the buffing here. It´s not challenging when the obvious answer is shelf all frames except Loki and Ash. Yes some other can be used as well but 66% of all frames are left obsolete for higher level Grineer missions with these changes and thats bad game design.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Hatzeputt

[Janzer]

Hmm, I had a slew of terrible runs the other night against, of all things, Grineer 33-38. It started with me testing out the old dual cleavers. There's an entire rant I have about how the dual cleavers really brings forth the stupidity of stances costing MORE stamina when equipped, that I'll leave for another time.

 

So my Grineer runs. I figured that maybe the DC just couldn't cut it where even the Sheev was capable of taking down high level planetary Grineer. I had found a build that seemed worthwhile, but I couldn't finish the mission. I kept getting killed.

 

So I grew tired of that and decided to throw on the Ceramic Dagger with a radiation build.

 

Same thing happened multiple times. I just kept dying. This got me good and &!$$y.

 

So I checked my Volt build. Yep, everything in place minus my one extra utility mod I used to run with, but that wouldn't be the golden mod to fix all builds. It was just an extra mod for utility. No big deal.

 

Well, I decided fine, I'll put on something I can't possibly fail in melee with, the Kogake. These are my go to melee when I absolutely have to kill a lot of, well, anything really. T4 Vor is able to stand up to them for about 3 seconds, just an example.

 

Went in to the mission, died to fire, yet again. That's when I realized, I'm dying to....fire. Not gun fire from the Grineer, but simply being on fire from explosions.

 

I figured, well, I may just be having an totally off day. I really can believed that at the time.

 

But to die repeatedly, with melee only which is my specialty (no sentinel/kubrow),.....to die to level 33-38 Grineer?!?! WTF IS GOING ON HERE?!?

 

And now I've read a couple of topics about this, here and on reddit, so apparently I'm not crazy. Go figure.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Janzer

[Pbrandon1]

This was my idea to make the Grineer be not too hard and not relying on damage as that is where there theme has been going too:

 

Basically have it where like you said, the Grineer focus on utility but also on defense and numbers but lack damage.

 

Grineer travel in large groups, move slow, focus on utility, and are only powerful in numbers. They travel in groups to minimize death and combine the power of their weapons to be able to take us out. Their weapons are also more not accurate, your weapons will be since you improve it but to mass-produce, it will be less accurate but the regular weapons will still shoot decently.

 

Example: Napalm's aren't focused on damage but just AOE so as levels increase, the flame becomes bigger, also the animation or the appearance of the fire needs to be changed too. Basically, utility to spread out Tenno. Hellions are focused on suppressing with individual little rockets, preventing you from trying to get moving and bombards are for focusing on knocking you down and getting you out of cover, opening you up for killing. A few examples.

 

Corpus will be about the same on utility but also there defenses will be weak and spread out, but they hit hard. Their weapons will also be quite accurate too.

 

Corpus are spread out, move fast, and hit hard, and hardly travel in numbers except if they are commanded to and if they do, they are to be feared. Moa's will be support units laying down fire in the background on us while the crewman try to wrap it up and ospreys will follow crewmen wherever they go or moa's too and are frontal force.

 

That's all I got. I hope this is decent enough.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Pbrandon1

[H.Katsura_999]

Grineer needs a balance.

Edited October 31, 2014 by H.Katsura_999

[Beef-DeathLegacy]

The problem here is that you cannot adapt to something that offers no counterplay. To have the possibility of adapting against something, means that the thing you are adapting to has something that you can use as an advantage against it. These guys literally perma-proc you with a constant stream of slash and puncture damage, with 100% accuracy WHILE having extreme damage, not to mention the fact that the range on most of the Grineer weapons turns almost every single one of those mobs into snipers.

 

Once again, I agree with the difficulty rising up but -this- type of a leap is just ridiculous, and before you say anything about Rhino or Frost: Iron Skin and Globe melt against the buffed units at later levels.

Hmm. I guess I can't change how you see this but before the recent Grineer buff, they were pretty much Storm Trooper gene.

You have more than 20 frames and 4 powers that come with each frame. You have so many mods to customize your equipment and along with it how you fight. I can't see why you say that there is no counterplay.

Forgive me, but what I can see from your attitude is that you hate challenge.

Also, I am not so narrowminded to think of Iron Skin and Globe as the only solution or as u said, "counter-play".

I can't really change your opinion but, if I may, I suggest that you try out different ways to play against them or try different frames and use all their powers.

Finally, I believe the enemies weren't sent to be killed by us but rather sent to kill us. The missions would be so boring if it doesn't feel that way.

[fatpig84]

Varies from frame to frame.

New Loco assassins make my loki cry though.

Edited October 31, 2014 by fatpig84

[Shrak-aeon]

Hmm. I guess I can't change how you see this but before the recent Grineer buff, they were pretty much Storm Trooper gene.

You have more than 20 frames and 4 powers that come with each frame. You have so many mods to customize your equipment and along with it how you fight. I can't see why you say that there is no counterplay.

Forgive me, but what I can see from your attitude is that you hate challenge.

Also, I am not so narrowminded to think of Iron Skin and Globe as the only solution or as u said, "counter-play".

I can't really change your opinion but, if I may, I suggest that you try out different ways to play against them or try different frames and use all their powers.

Finally, I believe the enemies weren't sent to be killed by us but rather sent to kill us. The missions would be so boring if it doesn't feel that way.

 

 

 

This I know, and I did actually hope for the Grineer to get something that would make them seem more like a threat than just meatshields for the heavies to jump in. But once more, the challenge is anything but what it is supposed to be. I began to play during Operation Breeding Grounds, and I was annoyed by the fact that the Grineer were simply meat marching for the grinder. They needed accuracy, but to boost it and their damage to the levels where you simply cannot avoid any damage is not healthy for gameplay.

 

I don't hate challenge, I actually love having something that forces me to adapt to the situation. This game involves high-speed combat most of the time, and using your abilities in an ideal combination to defeat the enemy. However, there is no room for doing this since you die in a matter of seconds after the enemy spots you. I have a load of frames, Ash, Loki, Rhino, Saryn, Ember, Frost and Nova to name a few of the ones I got now. I've tried these missions with each one and while the frames can have moments where their abilities and playstyle shine, the Grineer melt every frame that doesn't have an ability that blocks damage in some way in a couple of shots, and even those that can are filled with holes at a somewhat slower rate.

 

I say it once more. There is -no- challenge when for example a sniper can shoot you from the hip, without any preparation, while you're leaping to the side with immense speeds, and they STILL score a hit no matter how quickly you move or dodge. Challenge means that there is something you can use to the best of your ability to overcome your enemy/obstacle or whatever you have standing before you. But when one loses every option acting against the enemy, the challenge becomes an unfair festival of cheap tricks. Sure, one can go on a weaponized rampage and quickly gun down everything in sight but most of the time you'll still have those few units who survived your onslaught, shooting you down.

 

I might repeat myself somewhere along these lines and for that I apologize.

 

I really want more proper challenge to the lategame Grineer, but the current borderline aimhack troops offer no option to properly fight against them. Balance -HAS- to be an existing thing in games, and having enemies that teeter around with 100% accuracy, insane damage and proc-rate are nothing short of toxic for gameplay.

I'd want the Grineer to be something a player has to fight against with a strategy instead of mindless rampages with guns, that is definitely needed when compared to our old gun-wielding stormtrooper fanboys. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by Shrak-aeon