Rhino, Rhino, Rhino... [Edit #10: Improvements To Abilities And Stats!]

[Ronyn]

Actually...sigh... I no longer care to argue with you over this.

I use protracted arguments to gain insight and work out ideas. Its long past that point so...
So feel better, declare victory, have the last word or whatever it is you want to do.

 

EDIT:

Change of plans-

The family is late getting home, Ive already did my work for the day and I need a break from other projects so I'll attempt to communicate with you a bit more....

Instead of trying to argue about anything of who said what and who meant what..etc.. I'll just take a stroll down memory lane and let it speak for itself.

 

Valkyr is the tank tank

Rhino is far more a bruiser than valkyr 

Rhinos theme follows the bruiser support tank as it always has    

The only thing that says berserker in valkyrs theme is hysteria

The rest points to tanking

I believe the proper term is Passive Tank

Rhino is more a bruiser than valkyr will ever be. And he doesnt quite fit the role of tank since he cant attract aggro the way they usually do in games.

Can rhino not tank or something?

Valkyr is a passive tank

She doent grab attention because she isnt meant to

Rhino isnt even a real tank and hasnt been since iron skin lost it aggro attraction

Valkyr is a passive tank

Why do all tanks have to attract aggro?

What part of passive tank doesnt stick to youre head

A passive tank doesnt body block primarily (MANY FRAMES CAN DO THIS AS WELL AND IT DOES NOT DEFINE A TANK)

A passive tank doesnt draw aggro

A passive tank is just something that has high HP and defense but doesnt do other tank things

Thats all. Stop pretending that every type of tank has to draw aggro

The term passive tank is literally for tanks that dont do that

This specifically is my issue

Tanks dont just have to be tough

A passive tank just has to be tough

Bruiser =/= tank

Your point is to entirely ignore what i define as a passive tank and give it anotehr name then assume im trying to justify why theyre tanks in the way that you think all tanks should be for some reason when im saying they ar tanks that dont do the things normal tanks do

were both agreeing that Valkyr doesnt take generic tank responsibilities

it's just names.

As long as you keep consistent with your own definitions I can acknowledge your point of view whether I share it or not.

 

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Just so we are clear and why I called it making iron skin somehow reactive-

Speaking of which your definition of a reactive iron skin was just another preventative but of course you argue semantics on that as well

This is a matter of understanding combat logic.

So let's say you're a fighter in a cage match. You square off against another guy, both in stances ideal for punching and kicking. Suddenly your opponent takes on a lower stance which is ideal for shooting and grappling. As a reactionary measure, you lower your center of gravity so you're better prepared for sprawling and general counter grappling tactics. Since your opponent has not yet shot in or attempted a take down, this is a effectively a preventative measure as well.

Just because an action is one, does not mean it is not also the other.

In combat-Things aren't one dimensional. Often one takes a preventative measure as a reaction to the situation. And sometimes the proper reaction is a preventative measure.

These are different things that often flow into each other. 

In the same way, the smart use if my version of iron skin is both reactive and preventative.

From the programming perspective-since the number values change based on an outside variable it is, by definition, a reactive thing regardless of whatever else it may also be.

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So yeah..there ya go. I know I'm wasting my time. But what the heck..lol

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ronyn

[Lord.Finster]

Just throwing my take on Rhino into the game. 1000+ hours played. About 50% of that Rhino was played. He's my favourite.

 

Current flaws:

 

1)Scaling:

Only 2 abilites scale well into endgame (Roar, Stomp). He is not the only frame with that problem but it adiitionally conflicts with his image as a heavy-armoured warframe, because the worthwhile abilities are supportive in nature. The two abilites that are actually worth considering also don't synergize well with each other as one is range-dependent and the other is duration-dependent. Thus we either see roaring Rhinos or stomping Rhinos. Rarely do people rely on both. Most people don't depend on Iron skin for survivability because it doesn't scale well even though it dominates games until enemies reach lvl 30.

 

2)Armour:

Armour as a base mechanic in the game is still an undesirable strength. Rhino has lots of armour already but unless you have Valkyr-levels of armour, modding it is out of the question. Armour just doesn't do enough in general, and health is a scarce resource, unless you have some form of lifeleech or play with Necros, Oberon or Trinity. While I do agree on the premise that Rhino should have the highest armour rating in the game the downsides to this benefit (slow runspeed, low health or shields or low energy pool) would be too grave in the current meta.

 

Proposed solutions:

 

1)Metagame changes:

Enemies should drop health orbs on death. While those shouldn't be as common as energy orbs, their nonexistence makes player health too precious. It discourages players from considering their health as an expendable resource would be a necessary notion to even consider armour as something valuable. Players want to play around taking health damage as much as possible, when you take health damage in this game you have effectively made a mistake. Armour is nice to soften the fall but the fact remains you shouldn't have taken health damage in the first place. While giving out health orbs from fallen enemies might reduce the difficulty of the game significantly, it also introduces some form of interesting management, parallel to energy management.

I thus suggest that 30% of energy orb drops should be converted to health orb drops, each restoring 25 health.

 

2)Armour:

Well, do give Rhino the best armour rating in the game. He looks like it. Maybe reduce his shields as a compensation. But honestly, being slow is already a huge detriment. (I do have the arcane helmet but refuse to use it).

And concerning Valkyr, Berserkers shouldn't rely on high armour ratings but on speed and ferocity. I am certain that playing Valkyr with 200 armour is just as fine as with 600 armour because most Valkyr players have more then 1000 health, which makes it highly unlikely they get oneshot before they can press 4. Yet, this is mostly a style argument and retweaking Valkyr is not on the list atm.

 

3)Abilities:

 

Charge:

Trash this. It's not unique and it's weak. Compared to the newly buffed Slash Dash this is a waste of energy.

From a style perspective it negates Rhinos heaviness as it completely circumvents his momentum. If you want to make Rhino a living battering ram maybe this would help.

Rhino increases his personal runspeed by 50% for 10 seconds. For the duration all enemies that come into direct contact with Rhino get knocked to the ground (as if hit by a jump kick) and take a small amount of impact damage that scales with his armour rating. Being hit as an enemy by Rhino's melee weapon will have the same effect as having direct contact.

 

Iron Skin:

Looses the aggro mechanic. No additional health pool.

This is a toggle ability that will constantly drain energy from Rhino while active.

Sprinting will cost twice the amount of endurance while this buff is active but melee combos drain as normal.

It will double Rhino's armour rating and make him immune to procs and crits.

 

Roar:

Base damage multiplier is now 2.0.

Gains aggro mechanic in it's radius. Roar to get attention.

 

Stomp:

Needs to be affected by ability duration for less exploitation. Blast damage sucks, so no nerf is necessary on the damage front.

Drifting enemies should be vulnerable to finisher damage.

The whole air drifting is kinda supernatural but it has this nice Matrix effect and is kinda stylish in it's own right. Should we ever get a time manipulation frame, however, this ability should be reworked.

[Azawarau]

 

Actually...sigh... I no longer care to argue with you over this.

I use protracted arguments to gain insight and work out ideas. Its long past that point so...

So feel better, declare victory, have the last word or whatever it is you want to do.

 

EDIT:

Change of plans-

The family is late getting home, Ive already did my work for the day and I need a break from other projects so I'll attempt to communicate with you a bit more....

Instead of trying to argue about anything of who said what and who meant what..etc.. I'll just take a stroll down memory lane and let it speak for itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just so we are clear and why I called it making iron skin somehow reactive-

This is a matter of understanding combat logic.

So let's say you're a fighter in a cage match. You square off against another guy, both in stances ideal for punching and kicking. Suddenly your opponent takes on a lower stance which is ideal for shooting and grappling. As a reactionary measure, you lower your center of gravity so you're better prepared for sprawling and general counter grappling tactics. Since your opponent has not yet shot in or attempted a take down, this is a effectively a preventative measure as well.

Just because an action is one, does not mean it is not also the other.

In combat-Things aren't one dimensional. Often one takes a preventative measure as a reaction to the situation. And sometimes the proper reaction is a preventative measure.

These are different things that often flow into each other. 

In the same way, the smart use if my version of iron skin is both reactive and preventative.

From the programming perspective-since the number values change based on an outside variable it is, by definition, a reactive thing regardless of whatever else it may also be.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So yeah..there ya go. I know I'm wasting my time. But what the heck..lol

 

Ive been pointing out since the start that valkyr is more of a tank than rhino except that she doesnt draw aggro

 

Ive also pointed out that your rhino skin change isnt reactive at all

 

Its still going to be used as a preventative power with a bonus

 

Noone uses molt as a damage dealer

 

Noone uses hydroids puddle purely for damage rather than CC

 

Making rhino gain health at the start of iron skin wont make it reactive unless his health is entirely based on what he absorbs

 

If he has a base health it will be used

 

Also again. Making rhino tankier than valkyr seems to be your goal here

 

You havnt suggested an idea to balance her out after the last one despite it clearly pushing her out of the mix entirely

 

And speaking of wasting time

 

Ive been telling you this whole time that your bias and bad ideas arent going to help either frame

 

Rhino is already top tier meta

 

Valkyr isnt a top meta but shes certainly got her place in the top ranks

 

Youre trying to overbuff rhino based on a comparison to Nova who is one of the frames that trivializes the game

 

Shes given too much power

 

And also youre comparing and basing your balances on Hysteria which is more than clearly unbalanced despite claiming you arent

 

Frames should be balanced ideally to fit with Volt and Zephyr and Oberon

 

Rhinos current iron skin has him right in between Saryns and Valkyr

 

Hes not in a bad spot as is but could be improved despite being a metaframe

 

Your condescending tones and trollish "lols" at the ends of your posts dont mean anything either

 

Thats just bordering trolling and theres really no reason for that

 

if youre going to be serious then do it

 

If youre going to end a post with "lol" then it makes you look like an @$$

 

Now im going to get us back on track as best as i can

 

your idea for rhino scaling is bad

 

It wont make him reactive

 

My idea of lowering IS HP wont work either

 

If he just adds armor he becomes much closer to valkyrs EHP without passing it

 

But the issue is he does it spammably and with no duration

 

Adding a duration fixes the issue a bit

 

It also helps with the whole trolling early missions by pressing 4 and forgetting

 

Adding a timer actually makes it more reactive than the reactive IS suggestion you made earlier though itll still be used preventatively

 

 

 

Just throwing my take on Rhino into the game. 1000+ hours played. About 50% of that Rhino was played. He's my favourite.

 

Current flaws:

 

1)Scaling:

Only 2 abilites scale well into endgame (Roar, Stomp). He is not the only frame with that problem but it adiitionally conflicts with his image as a heavy-armoured warframe, because the worthwhile abilities are supportive in nature. The two abilites that are actually worth considering also don't synergize well with each other as one is range-dependent and the other is duration-dependent. Thus we either see roaring Rhinos or stomping Rhinos. Rarely do people rely on both. Most people don't depend on Iron skin for survivability because it doesn't scale well even though it dominates games until enemies reach lvl 30.

 

2)Armour:

Armour as a base mechanic in the game is still an undesirable strength. Rhino has lots of armour already but unless you have Valkyr-levels of armour, modding it is out of the question. Armour just doesn't do enough in general, and health is a scarce resource, unless you have some form of lifeleech or play with Necros, Oberon or Trinity. While I do agree on the premise that Rhino should have the highest armour rating in the game the downsides to this benefit (slow runspeed, low health or shields or low energy pool) would be too grave in the current meta.

 

Proposed solutions:

 

1)Metagame changes:

Enemies should drop health orbs on death. While those shouldn't be as common as energy orbs, their nonexistence makes player health too precious. It discourages players from considering their health as an expendable resource would be a necessary notion to even consider armour as something valuable. Players want to play around taking health damage as much as possible, when you take health damage in this game you have effectively made a mistake. Armour is nice to soften the fall but the fact remains you shouldn't have taken health damage in the first place. While giving out health orbs from fallen enemies might reduce the difficulty of the game significantly, it also introduces some form of interesting management, parallel to energy management.

I thus suggest that 30% of energy orb drops should be converted to health orb drops, each restoring 25 health.

 

2)Armour:

Well, do give Rhino the best armour rating in the game. He looks like it. Maybe reduce his shields as a compensation. But honestly, being slow is already a huge detriment. (I do have the arcane helmet but refuse to use it).

And concerning Valkyr, Berserkers shouldn't rely on high armour ratings but on speed and ferocity. I am certain that playing Valkyr with 200 armour is just as fine as with 600 armour because most Valkyr players have more then 1000 health, which makes it highly unlikely they get oneshot before they can press 4. Yet, this is mostly a style argument and retweaking Valkyr is not on the list atm.

 

3)Abilities:

 

Charge:

Trash this. It's not unique and it's weak. Compared to the newly buffed Slash Dash this is a waste of energy.

From a style perspective it negates Rhinos heaviness as it completely circumvents his momentum. If you want to make Rhino a living battering ram maybe this would help.

Rhino increases his personal runspeed by 50% for 10 seconds. For the duration all enemies that come into direct contact with Rhino get knocked to the ground (as if hit by a jump kick) and take a small amount of impact damage that scales with his armour rating. Being hit as an enemy by Rhino's melee weapon will have the same effect as having direct contact.

 

Iron Skin:

Looses the aggro mechanic. No additional health pool.

This is a toggle ability that will constantly drain energy from Rhino while active.

Sprinting will cost twice the amount of endurance while this buff is active but melee combos drain as normal.

It will double Rhino's armour rating and make him immune to procs and crits.

 

Roar:

Base damage multiplier is now 2.0.

Gains aggro mechanic in it's radius. Roar to get attention.

 

Stomp:

Needs to be affected by ability duration for less exploitation. Blast damage sucks, so no nerf is necessary on the damage front.

Drifting enemies should be vulnerable to finisher damage.

The whole air drifting is kinda supernatural but it has this nice Matrix effect and is kinda stylish in it's own right. Should we ever get a time manipulation frame, however, this ability should be reworked.

I have a few issues with this post

 

You said only 2 abilities scale but 2 is literally half his skillset and one of the abilities that dont scale still block CC as long as you can avoid damage

 

I play as saryn often and life leech becomes a big part of my survival late on

 

Theres also item usage that i havnt gotten into yet but my point is that armor is very viable in end game for the relatively few frames that can make use of it

 

I do think enemies should have at least a light health orb drop rate so ill agree there ( i think ill make a poll about this later)

 

Theres no reason to raise rhinos armor that much

 

Hell become overpowered

 

Saying he looks like it really doesnt mean much either. Valkyr was tortured into her pain resistance.

 

I know wrestling is mostly fake but have you ever watched it asa kid? Mick Foley was one of my favorites becuase he could take a hit

 

He wasnt the biggest strongest baddest wrestler but he stood up to the best of them and won still

 

Valkyr maxes at 820 something health

 

I dont see why berserkers on this forum are seen as being so soft

 

Theyre usually some of the toughest classes in a game

 

And in a game like warframe theres no better way to go berserk than to take the enemy head on after screaming

 

Also many valkyr players dont use 4

 

Its broken and should be changed

 

Your suggestion for iron skin is interesting but theres a problem

 

Under the assumption rhino has 600 armor itll be way too powerful without even bringing in CC immunity

 

The benefits outweigh the costs by ages

 

As for stomp

 

It kind of takes away from his signature and makes it a bit OP for abusing finisher damage on enemies

Edited November 9, 2014 by Azawarau

[Xana_Skullsunder]

My 2 cents:

- Leave Valkyr's armor alone for now

- I agree with changing up his abilities, maybe upping the armor

[Llyssa]

1.By your "how they look" logic, to me, Rhino looks like a giant creampuff, so, clearly, he should have NO armor at all, and lots and lots of health. He's just a big fluffy bag of meat.
 Where you get off with the idea that mr. puffy looks like he has any armor at all, I don't know, but good joke.

 

Or we could leave it as is. Either of those options are good.

 

2. Rhino is too powerful. He needs a nerf/rebalance, not a buff.

3. Ofc, your changes to rhino charge and stomp would nice nerfs, but I'm not really in favor of that. Oh, also, this would be "rhino <blah> 5.0", he's been changed repeatedly, already.

4. Iron Skin definitely needs to be made to a damage reduction. The current state is very bad. More here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/317640-revamping-the-rhino/

5. Roar buffing ally armor might be nice, but seems unnecessary--maybe suggest it as a specialty mod for the syndicates. We'd gauge this better if rhinos ever roared.

 

EDIT: Oh, and for bonus points: Giving him an armor buff and then converting IS to damage reduction would make him far too strong/imbalanced. He should get one or the other, not both. Of course, if his armor was buffed, that would play in favor just removing IS altogether.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Llyssa

[Ronyn]

I'm going to simply not respond to the things that were either not actually in debate or are things we are clearly just not going to agree on.

I will ask you politely to stop accusing me of things like "bias" and telling me that my balance logic is based on something I state it is not .....

seriously let's just discuss the ideas themselves without that kind of thing.

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Your condescending tones and trollish "lols" at the ends of your posts dont mean anything either

Thats just bordering trolling and theres really no reason for that

if youre going to be serious then do it

If youre going to end a post with "lol" then it makes you look like an @$$

Let me get this out of the way real quick. The  LOL's (along with my terrible jokes) were usually my poor attempts at light hearted humor and poking fun. It's supposed toi lighten the mood and cut the tension. But hey...I've never been good at getting humor across to people online though.

So I totally get why it could come across in a bad way.

What you refer to as the "condescending tone" is more complicated to explain. So I won't bother trying. We could throw that word back and forth at each for while if we wanted but to what end? So I'll just let it go. I hope you'll do the same.

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OK on to business.

 

As for stomp

It kind of takes away from his signature and makes it a bit OP for abusing finisher damage on enemies

I know you aimed this at someone else but I want to say-Indeed.

See this whole thing where people can spam the 4 ability came about through a list of changes over time. 

We got more energy to use (which I initially enjoyed) but then came mod after mod that lowered energy cost of using abilities.

This lead to far too much "press 4 to win" strategies.

So I think rhino is just one of MANY frames who's core identity has gotten kind of muddled up by the ability to spam their 4. 

If Rhino stomp was one of those rarely used, "Oh %&*" button it would fit right into his kit instead of overshadowing it.

It would be a "the allies are getting overwhelmed, time to equalize this fight!" thing that really meshes well with being a mitigation of damage for both self and allies focused character.  (It use to be a rarely used thing due to lack of energy, it really changed how he plays) 

Keep my opinion of the dreaded press 4 spam in mind for what I am going to say later in this post.

 

Ive also pointed out that your rhino skin change isnt reactive at all

Its still going to be used as a preventative power with a bonus

Instead of arguing over what to call that (we wont ever agree) I'm going to speak for myself and my own playstle here.

If Iron Skin worked in the general way I suggest...

I would avoid using it before fights, in empty rooms or when only a few enemies were around as we all do now. 

I would attempt to use it specifically when there were enough enemies around me to get a good bonus on it.

The main thing is that I would use it with more thoughtfulness then I do now because I would be rewarded for doing so with more effectiveness.

 

You think my idea for it is bad. I think you're not getting it. We will have to agree to disagree on that too. 

 

Quick note: whatever numbers I have thrown out are subject to whatever tuning is found through testing.

Because there are many question such as "if DE used my version of Iron Skin would the base HP (having not absorbed any damage) remain as it is now or would it be lowered. Will they add a time limit (which I am not against) meaning Rhino would spend more time with Iron Skin not active than he does now. Etc. So without nailing down those various contributing factors I see no point in haggling over the final numbers on where the stats would sit.

 

Also again. Making rhino tankier than valkyr seems to be your goal here

Eh....I'm going to just avoid the words "tank","tanky",tankier", and "tanking" for the remainder of our discussion.

Let me explain my goal for how those two should stack up in different words.

 

Rhino, as I see his intended design is meant to mitigate damage for both himself and allies. So he should be able to effectively body block as well as or better than anybody else in the game. There is something very important you need to factor in here: I have a wide spread issue with how so many frames are spamming their 4 skill so I am always wanting that to be toned down. Like I mean I REALLY think that needs to be gotten under control for the good of the games combat model overall. Now assuming that happened rhino wouldn't be able to stomp enemies repeatedly leaving nothing but floating enemies through much of the fight. Instead he would be charging to knock people down, standing in between enemies and allies, and bolstering the fight with Roar. This is where his need to be quite a bit more resilient than he is now would come into play.

 

Valkyr, as I see her intended design, is meant to mix it up with anyone and everyone without a problem. She should be heck on wheels and have no trouble clawing her way through the enemy ranks. This will require that she is very tough and able to get back the health she looses without needing anyone's help or protection. However since the larger teams survival does not hinge on her protecting them directly, I feel it is fitting that her ultimate ability mode would be something that would make her more adept at killing than she is outside of the mode.

 

Provided these two are falling into the roles I just described above-the contrast between them will be as follows-

Valkyr, through her total stats and ability set, needs to be tough enough to withstand the damage that is aimed at her while being capable of dishing out an offensive focused frames level of damage.

Rhino, through his total stats and ability set, needs to be tough enough to withstand the damage that is aimed at him and a portion of the damage that would have been aimed at his allies while through CC stopping some amount of the damage that would have been aimed at allies while personally dishing out less damage than an offensive focused frame does. Now Roar will increase his damage but it will increase everyone's putting the offense frames back on top. 

 

Remember-all that mitigation design logic is for nothing as long as rhino can just spam 4 over and over. 

I REALLY don't like that the game has become so much of that. At the very least it would be nice if rhinos stats effected his abilities in such a way that it became more beneficial for rhino to slot defensive mods than power strength and energy efficiency of one sort or another.

 

You havnt suggested an idea to balance her out after the last one despite it clearly pushing her out of the mix entirely

I don't know what your basis for that opinion is. I suggested a rather general "tough with life steal but not invulnerable with bonus melee capability".

I didnt propose any specific numbers. It's a general direction. What is the problem with that idea? See I think the concept of Valkyr going all crazy cat lady who claws everyone is awesome as heck. I don't want them to dump the concept I just want them to tune it better.

I mean you have expressed that you can play her as a melee frame very well without hysteria and you don't like hysteria making her invulnerable. 

So like..what's the deal here? I honestly don't feel you have explained a bit of what you're issue with it is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Something that remains problematic in these discussion is the blurry concept of what end game level content should be..

as that decides what power level we should be aiming at for the frames. 

Right now the game get's to a point where most damage powers cease to be effective at doing much damage compared to the enemies HP and the tennos guns. Certainly that is not idea. It's also not cool that some frames seem to simultaneously slow and melt all nearby enemies just by pressing a button. Of course that is largely due to the number 4 spam problem. That really mucks up too many things in the game.

[Azawarau]

I'm going to simply not respond to the things that were either not actually in debate or are things we are clearly just not going to agree on.

I will ask you politely to stop accusing me of things like "bias" and telling me that my balance logic is based on something I state it is not .....

seriously let's just discuss the ideas themselves without that kind of thing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Let me get this out of the way real quick. The  LOL's (along with my terrible jokes) were usually my poor attempts at light hearted humor and poking fun. It's supposed toi lighten the mood and cut the tension. But hey...I've never been good at getting humor across to people online though.

So I totally get why it could come across in a bad way.

What you refer to as the "condescending tone" is more complicated to explain. So I won't bother trying. We could throw that word back and forth at each for while if we wanted but to what end? So I'll just let it go. I hope you'll do the same.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

OK on to business.

 

I know you aimed this at someone else but I want to say-Indeed.

See this whole thing where people can spam the 4 ability came about through a list of changes over time. 

We got more energy to use (which I initially enjoyed) but then came mod after mod that lowered energy cost of using abilities.

This lead to far too much "press 4 to win" strategies.

So I think rhino is just one of MANY frames who's core identity has gotten kind of muddled up by the ability to spam their 4. 

If Rhino stomp was one of those rarely used, "Oh %&*" button it would fit right into his kit instead of overshadowing it.

It would be a "the allies are getting overwhelmed, time to equalize this fight!" thing that really meshes well with being a mitigation of damage for both self and allies focused character.  (It use to be a rarely used thing due to lack of energy, it really changed how he plays) 

Keep my opinion of the dreaded press 4 spam in mind for what I am going to say later in this post.

 

Instead of arguing over what to call that (we wont ever agree) I'm going to speak for myself and my own playstle here.

If Iron Skin worked in the general way I suggest...

I would avoid using it before fights, in empty rooms or when only a few enemies were around as we all do now. 

I would attempt to use it specifically when there were enough enemies around me to get a good bonus on it.

The main thing is that I would use it with more thoughtfulness then I do now because I would be rewarded for doing so with more effectiveness.

 

You think my idea for it is bad. I think you're not getting it. We will have to agree to disagree on that too. 

 

Quick note: whatever numbers I have thrown out are subject to whatever tuning is found through testing.

Because there are many question such as "if DE used my version of Iron Skin would the base HP (having not absorbed any damage) remain as it is now or would it be lowered. Will they add a time limit (which I am not against) meaning Rhino would spend more time with Iron Skin not active than he does now. Etc. So without nailing down those various contributing factors I see no point in haggling over the final numbers on where the stats would sit.

 

Eh....I'm going to just avoid the words "tank","tanky",tankier", and "tanking" for the remainder of our discussion.

Let me explain my goal for how those two should stack up in different words.

 

Rhino, as I see his intended design is meant to mitigate damage for both himself and allies. So he should be able to effectively body block as well as or better than anybody else in the game. There is something very important you need to factor in here: I have a wide spread issue with how so many frames are spamming their 4 skill so I am always wanting that to be toned down. Like I mean I REALLY think that needs to be gotten under control for the good of the games combat model overall. Now assuming that happened rhino wouldn't be able to stomp enemies repeatedly leaving nothing but floating enemies through much of the fight. Instead he would be charging to knock people down, standing in between enemies and allies, and bolstering the fight with Roar. This is where his need to be quite a bit more resilient than he is now would come into play.

 

Valkyr, as I see her intended design, is meant to mix it up with anyone and everyone without a problem. She should be heck on wheels and have no trouble clawing her way through the enemy ranks. This will require that she is very tough and able to get back the health she looses without needing anyone's help or protection. However since the larger teams survival does not hinge on her protecting them directly, I feel it is fitting that her ultimate ability mode would be something that would make her more adept at killing than she is outside of the mode.

 

Provided these two are falling into the roles I just described above-the contrast between them will be as follows-

Valkyr, through her total stats and ability set, needs to be tough enough to withstand the damage that is aimed at her while being capable of dishing out an offensive focused frames level of damage.

Rhino, through his total stats and ability set, needs to be tough enough to withstand the damage that is aimed at him and a portion of the damage that would have been aimed at his allies while through CC stopping some amount of the damage that would have been aimed at allies while personally dishing out less damage than an offensive focused frame does. Now Roar will increase his damage but it will increase everyone's putting the offense frames back on top. 

 

Remember-all that mitigation design logic is for nothing as long as rhino can just spam 4 over and over. 

I REALLY don't like that the game has become so much of that. At the very least it would be nice if rhinos stats effected his abilities in such a way that it became more beneficial for rhino to slot defensive mods than power strength and energy efficiency of one sort or another.

 

I don't know what your basis for that opinion is. I suggested a rather general "tough with life steal but not invulnerable with bonus melee capability".

I didnt propose any specific numbers. It's a general direction. What is the problem with that idea? See I think the concept of Valkyr going all crazy cat lady who claws everyone is awesome as heck. I don't want them to dump the concept I just want them to tune it better.

I mean you have expressed that you can play her as a melee frame very well without hysteria and you don't like hysteria making her invulnerable. 

So like..what's the deal here? I honestly don't feel you have explained a bit of what you're issue with it is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Something that remains problematic in these discussion is the blurry concept of what end game level content should be..

as that decides what power level we should be aiming at for the frames. 

Right now the game get's to a point where most damage powers cease to be effective at doing much damage compared to the enemies HP and the tennos guns. Certainly that is not idea. It's also not cool that some frames seem to simultaneously slow and melt all nearby enemies just by pressing a button. Of course that is largely due to the number 4 spam problem. That really mucks up too many things in the game.

Im an aspiring comedian

 

Your jokes arent jokes and they arent funny

 

4 to win is worse than damage mitigating monster how exactly?

 

I get tired of hearing things like this with little explanation

 

Buffing rhino to 8k ehp would make him no worse than 4 spammers

 

Thats alot of the issue  i have with alot of 4 spam hate despite not liking it myself either

 

You designed that iron skin idea so of course youd use it the way it was designed but the greater part of the playerbase wont

 

Thats why trinity was used for invi rather than healing for so long

 

I use tanky under the direct context (and it is heavily implied and understood the way its meant by many) as having high defense

 

Youve been taking that out of context at your convenience quite a bit

 

Now i see rhino as a tank that plays a simple role

 

Stay alive,Plow through enemies,CC when needed

 

Valkyr is a far different kind of tank

 

Self buff, self support, forward unrelenting attack

 

Also valkyr is one of the queens of survival

 

Shes absolutely godly without the use of hysteria so please just stop saying shes not dishing out the damage of offensive frames

 

I have yet to run a 40-50 survival where my valkyr was beaten out by anything but another valkyr with a similar build

 

Ive gone with nova and ember and saryn and all of them always fall behind my Serro

 

Valkyrs melee damage output is unrivaled by weapons and few powers can keep up with the consistency she offers

 

Though it comes with its risks as well

 

You basically described what rhino does already...

 

My issue is the way you portray scenery through only your eyes

 

youve got to look through the eyes of the playerbase and find flaws in your own ideas

 

Revise and rework until its acceptable

 

The level line is clearly defined at 1-50 and anything much beyond is not a basis for balance

 

End game is currently everything that fits near the 50 mark and voids/bosses

 

Future endgame will likely not come around for a long time but thats not what this is about so another day well hash that one out over 15 pages of derailment

 

Just to tldr it

 

Make iron skin a direct DR or armor boost that doesnt affect shields and give it a time limit

 

Buff it so max power STR (or just blind rage+intensify maybe) gives him around 6k ehp

 

Buff the duration on roar as well

 

Alternatively it could be left as is + armor with a time limit

[Ronyn]

Im an aspiring comedian

Your jokes arent jokes and they arent funny

If you're only "aspiring" you shouldn't speak with such authority!

Ba-dump-tish.....

 

4 to win is worse than damage mitigating monster how exactly?

Buffing rhino to 8k ehp would make him no worse than 4 spammers

Thats alot of the issue  i have with alot of 4 spam hate despite not liking it myself either

 

4 to win problems are the ones that results in mass enemy death or stuns every couple dozen seconds equating to little interaction between player and enemy. That is a functionally neutered combat model.

The damage mitigation design I referred to is an abstract idea with no set specific numerical values to judge it on.

So that will result in either engaging protector style combat OR terribly mind numbing nigh invulnerability depending on how it is tuned from playtesting.

I want it tuned properly to where it is engaging.

 

You designed that iron skin idea so of course youd use it the way it was designed but the greater part of the playerbase wont

Thats why trinity was used for invi rather than healing for so long

I appreciate your theoretical assessment of how other players would use my Iron Skin idea but it is only an theoretical assessment.

How it would actually play out remains to be seen. So as I said, agree to disagree.

 

I use tanky under the direct context (and it is heavily implied and understood the way its meant by many) as having high defense

Youve been taking that out of context at your convenience quite a bit

You appear to misunderstand why I didn't use the word.

After the long argument we had related to the term tank and its variants I thought it simplest to just avoid it and use different words.

My only goal was to avoid more arguing about it. Please just let it be as I will not rehash it, or what you claim I was doing with it, again.

 

Shes absolutely godly without the use of hysteria so please just stop saying shes not dishing out the damage of offensive frames

I have yet to run a 40-50 survival where my valkyr was beaten out by anything but another valkyr with a similar build

Ive gone with nova and ember and saryn and all of them always fall behind my Serro

Valkyrs melee damage output is unrivaled by weapons and few powers can keep up with the consistency she offers

Though it comes with its risks as well

Technically I did not say she wasn't dishing out the damage of offensive frames outside of hysteria.

I expressed what I feel her design direction should entail, which includes uber melee damage.

I also talked about the damage she puts out during hysteria which works on a somewhat different damage scale.

And then said what I think she should be doing during hysteria in particular. 

 

At any rate I'm not certain my experience has been the same as yours with playing near her but Ok, for the sake of argument let's just go with that.

Provided Valkyr can in fact equal or exceed the damage output of any other frame even without a damage "bonus/alt scaling" from hysteria-

What should her ultimate do? I feel there are a ton of awesome animations in it and it's general concept is very identifiable with her character so I think it would be a shame not to retain it in some form. 

 

You basically described what rhino does already...

Mostly yes, my whole point is that I think he should be better at it in some regards, require more thought to play as and rely less on spamming stomp.

 

My issue is the way you portray scenery through only your eyes

youve got to look through the eyes of the playerbase and find flaws in your own ideas

Revise and rework until its acceptable

You obviously have a negative view of how I see things and my ideas. So be it.

Though it is not some factual truth or even an opinion that everyone shares.

So there is no debate to be had on this, just a difference of opinion.

 

The level line is clearly defined at 1-50 and anything much beyond is not a basis for balance

End game is currently everything that fits near the 50 mark and voids/bosses

I'll agree with that. keep in mind that not everyone who plays warframe does agree with that....

so it is worth making sure the two people in a discussion are on the same page.

 

 

Just to tldr it

Make iron skin a direct DR or armor boost that doesnt affect shields and give it a time limit

Buff it so max power STR (or just blind rage+intensify maybe) gives him around 6k ehp

Buff the duration on roar as well

Alternatively it could be left as is + armor with a time limit

As I said in another thread. Those kinds of simple measures could probably be tuned  to work out just fine.

I prefer something a but more.....daring for the lack of a better term.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ronyn

[Lord.Finster]

As a base premise, frames should be and feel what they look like.

 

How anyone can see Rhino as a creampuff is beyond me. Have you even taken a closer look at him? The thickness of his leg plates is probably about an inch. His chestplate is probably about the same thickness. If Rhino doesn't have armour, noone should.

 

Berserkers usually sacrifice armour for mobility, that is what differentiates them from a knight on foot.

High pain tolerance does not equal armour. Armour prevents damage, pain tolerance lets you fight on while taking damage.

The latter is not well reflected mechanically in warframe, but Valkyrs high base health is explained by that.

Compare Wolverine to the Silver Samurai. The former is a berserker, the latter is a knight.

 

It is clear from Valkyrs appearance that her armour was largely stripped off. Thus, her armour values should be low and her runspeed should be high. When I see her, I don't see a tank. I see, in DOTA terms, an assassin, a melee DPS machine.

Her high amount of health reflects her pain tolerance, because the time she can absorb damage before passing out is higher than for most other frames. By the power of her skills she can also regenerate her health to prolong combat.

 

Again, I differentiate Valkyr from Rhino only because they are both Prime examples of visual and gameplay misrepresentation.

I have no intention of nerfing Valkyr. I would just tweak her, to up her shields and down her armour. Her 4 is broken and Warcry should not improve armour but increase runspeed or do sth. else entirely.

 

Back to Rhino, Rhino is too ability dependent to be considered a tank. The only thing that really makes him a tank is Iron Skin.

While his armour value is the second highest in the game, that doesn't really work, because no self heal. Scaling enemy damage prevents him from fulfilling his tank role in higher levels because Iron Skin just melts away in seconds. Rhino neither has self heal like Valkyr and Iron Skin quickly evaporates unless you use cover.

And that is exactly what Iron Skin should not be. It should enable you to survive without cover in critical situations for a limited amount of time.

At the moment it is a constant companion of carelessness.

 

Iron Skin needs to be reactive and situational. It should not be a no brainer spam ability. It needs to synergize with Rhino's basic theme and strengths and it needs to scale properly from early game to end game. It also should punish you slightly for using it in the wrong situation.

Thus it:

1)Should either be on a short duration timer (10 seconds max) or be a toggle ability.

2)Should interact with his high armour value somehow.

3)Should bring percentage based buffs instead of absolute numbers buffs.

4)It should also have a small detrimental effect for using it, to discourage mindless spamming. I consider drawing aggro a small detrimental effect but many players just want exactly that and see it as a benefit, so it's not really an option. The downside should again emphasize heaviness, which is why I suggested to increase movement stamina cost while in this mode. Halving jump hight is also a fine option.

5)It should not allow Rhino to replenish his shields while active unless he takes no damage also. He will also not be immune to magnetic procs halving his shields, although he will be immune to all other procs and crits.

[Azawarau]

 

If you're only "aspiring" you shouldn't speak with such authority!

Ba-dump-tish.....

 

 

4 to win problems are the ones that results in mass enemy death or stuns every couple dozen seconds equating to little interaction between player and enemy. That is a functionally neutered combat model.

The damage mitigation design I referred to is an abstract idea with no set specific numerical values to judge it on.

So that will result in either engaging protector style combat OR terribly mind numbing nigh invulnerability depending on how it is tuned from playtesting.

I want it tuned properly to where it is engaging.

 

I appreciate your theoretical assessment of how other players would use my Iron Skin idea but it is only an theoretical assessment.

How it would actually play out remains to be seen. So as I said, agree to disagree.

 

You appear to misunderstand why I didn't use the word.

After the long argument we had related to the term tank and its variants I thought it simplest to just avoid it and use different words.

My only goal was to avoid more arguing about it. Please just let it be as I will not rehash it, or what you claim I was doing with it, again.

 

Technically I did not say she wasn't dishing out the damage of offensive frames outside of hysteria.

I expressed what I feel her design direction should entail, which includes uber melee damage.

I also talked about the damage she puts out during hysteria which works on a somewhat different damage scale.

And then said what I think she should be doing during hysteria in particular. 

 

At any rate I'm not certain my experience has been the same as yours with playing near her but Ok, for the sake of argument let's just go with that.

Provided Valkyr can in fact equal or exceed the damage output of any other frame even without a damage "bonus/alt scaling" from hysteria-

What should her ultimate do? I feel there are a ton of awesome animations in it and it's general concept is very identifiable with her character so I think it would be a shame not to retain it in some form. 

 

Mostly yes, my whole point is that I think he should be better at it in some regards, require more thought to play as and rely less on spamming stomp.

 

You obviously have a negative view of how I see things and my ideas. So be it.

Though it is not some factual truth or even an opinion that everyone shares.

So there is no debate to be had on this, just a difference of opinion.

 

I'll agree with that. keep in mind that not everyone who plays warframe does agree with that....

so it is worth making sure the two people in a discussion are on the same page.

 

 

As I said in another thread. Those kinds of simple measures could probably be tuned  to work out just fine.

I prefer something a but more.....daring for the lack of a better term.

 

Personally

 

I feel as if Hysteria will always fall to regular melee unless its opened up to be used ith any weapon you have

 

If its claws itll be single target so even if it has insane damage itll be inefficient at killing

 

Without elemental procs grineer will always steamtroll the damage hysteria can output as well

 

And without enhancing melee mods it would be power creeped even if it were better than melee as it is now

 

If Hysteria allowed you to use your own melee weapon, gave a very small defensive buff (or debuff) along with CC resistance (Not immunity. We dont need more rhino/trinity ignoring everything), and a passive healing rather than life steal i think shed be good to go

 

As a base premise, frames should be and feel what they look like.

 

How anyone can see Rhino as a creampuff is beyond me. Have you even taken a closer look at him? The thickness of his leg plates is probably about an inch. His chestplate is probably about the same thickness. If Rhino doesn't have armour, noone should.

 

Berserkers usually sacrifice armour for mobility, that is what differentiates them from a knight on foot.

High pain tolerance does not equal armour. Armour prevents damage, pain tolerance lets you fight on while taking damage.

The latter is not well reflected mechanically in warframe, but Valkyrs high base health is explained by that.

Compare Wolverine to the Silver Samurai. The former is a berserker, the latter is a knight.

 

It is clear from Valkyrs appearance that her armour was largely stripped off. Thus, her armour values should be low and her runspeed should be high. When I see her, I don't see a tank. I see, in DOTA terms, an assassin, a melee DPS machine.

Her high amount of health reflects her pain tolerance, because the time she can absorb damage before passing out is higher than for most other frames. By the power of her skills she can also regenerate her health to prolong combat.

 

Again, I differentiate Valkyr from Rhino only because they are both Prime examples of visual and gameplay misrepresentation.

I have no intention of nerfing Valkyr. I would just tweak her, to up her shields and down her armour. Her 4 is broken and Warcry should not improve armour but increase runspeed or do sth. else entirely.

 

Back to Rhino, Rhino is too ability dependent to be considered a tank. The only thing that really makes him a tank is Iron Skin.

While his armour value is the second highest in the game, that doesn't really work, because no self heal. Scaling enemy damage prevents him from fulfilling his tank role in higher levels because Iron Skin just melts away in seconds. Rhino neither has self heal like Valkyr and Iron Skin quickly evaporates unless you use cover.

And that is exactly what Iron Skin should not be. It should enable you to survive without cover in critical situations for a limited amount of time.

At the moment it is a constant companion of carelessness.

 

Iron Skin needs to be reactive and situational. It should not be a no brainer spam ability. It needs to synergize with Rhino's basic theme and strengths and it needs to scale properly from early game to end game. It also should punish you slightly for using it in the wrong situation.

Thus it:

1)Should either be on a short duration timer (10 seconds max) or be a toggle ability.

2)Should interact with his high armour value somehow.

3)Should bring percentage based buffs instead of absolute numbers buffs.

4)It should also have a small detrimental effect for using it, to discourage mindless spamming. I consider drawing aggro a small detrimental effect but many players just want exactly that and see it as a benefit, so it's not really an option. The downside should again emphasize heaviness, which is why I suggested to increase movement stamina cost while in this mode. Halving jump hight is also a fine option.

5)It should not allow Rhino to replenish his shields while active unless he takes no damage also. He will also not be immune to magnetic procs halving his shields, although he will be immune to all other procs and crits.

what they look like? Rhino is a creampuff?

 

OK

 

First off Valkyr looks like shes been horribly tortured and disfigured. Possibly to the point where she barel feels pai- WELL WOULD YA LOOK AT THAT!

 

Rhino isnt soft at all

 

Hes still the tankiest frame next to trinity and Valkyr and he has CC and CC immunity to boot

 

Also berserkers tend to be some of the most heavily armored in games

 

Theyre big, tough, slow, and hit hard

 

In a way valkyr is a berserker but not in the classic MMO sense as much as being insane because of countless voices in her head telling her to break everything in sight

 

Making iron skin have a base 15 second timer as it is now would make it something people would spam less

 

Though some might go max duration with Narrow Minded... itd kill their roar and stomp so that balances out

[Reaver_X]

Iron skin should have snowglobes mechanic as far as how far it can be built up.

[Ronyn]

Thanks for the answer-

Personally

I feel as if Hysteria will always fall to regular melee unless its opened up to be used ith any weapon you have

If its claws itll be single target so even if it has insane damage itll be inefficient at killing

Without elemental procs grineer will always steamtroll the damage hysteria can output as well

And without enhancing melee mods it would be power creeped even if it were better than melee as it is now

 

If Hysteria allowed you to use your own melee weapon,

 

The damage scaling equation of hysteria is just numerical values that can be altered by the developers.

It could take into account any melee damage, speed, and elemental mod...to whatever degree..... DE made it.

The area the claw swings cover can technically hit something around three targets per swing but it is so small that is not always reasonable.

This too can be adjusted to hit a wider area just by altering the values and perhaps adding a slight change in the length of the claws or adding a sort air swipe animation or something. This area covered could even be altered based on the currently equipped weapon if DE wanted to go that route. 

TLDR: Factually speaking: Valkyr does not have to stick with her normal melee weapon to get all of whichever benefits from that weapon and the mods it has, have the right output and wide swings.

 

For the record-Back when Hysteria's animations were just the slow floaty claw thing I recommended just letting us go back to using our regular melee weapon. But after all of the work DE has put in on animations from the clawing to unique wall crawling...

I would say that it is a bad use of a developers time and assets to just dump all of that work to achieve the same/similar goals that they could get from mostly just altering numerical values.

Though, if necessary, I suppose it is possible that DE could find another use for those same animations.

In the end whether one wants Valkyr to bust out claws or stick with what she is holding will come down to simple stylistic preference.

 

I'll point out that these above mentioned problems with hysteria's poor performance of melee output is pretty much exactly what I was talking about earlier. The majority of the improvements to hysteria I recommend fall right in line with fixing these particular concerns we have now both expressed.

 

gave a very small defensive buff (or debuff) along with CC resistance (Not immunity.

As I explained before, I think a defensive buff is a good idea as well (the debuff idea is interesting)

Now the word "resistance" infers a matter of magnitude. We would have to nail down exactly what CC would effect Valkyr and what wouldn't. 

In my view I think that being locked into melee mode is exactly why having CC immunity makes sense for her.

She absolutely has to close in on targets no matter where they are to do any damage in that kind of mode.(well there is ripcord..)

And if she is no longer invulnerable but actually taking damage from enemy fire she needs to close in sooner rather than later.

So the CC immunity allows the more aggressive approach. Though to be fair CC resistance, depending on it's magnitude, could provide an almost identical effect.

 

and a passive healing rather than life steal i think shed be good to go

I'm going to apply a well known game design philosophy-Reward drives activity.

Passive healing is gained over time. This can reward players for waiting things out, taking cover and general inaction.

Life steal is gained from direct offensive action. This specifically rewards players for actively engaging and killing enemies.

So I think that passive healing is a far less ideal way for her to recover health than life steal.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a broader sense of things it's good to remember that Hysteria is meant to be some sort of "rage state" so it's mechanics should promote more aggressive play. That is how theme and mechanics OR intent and execution will come together cohesively.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ronyn

[Azawarau]

Thanks for the answer-

 

The damage scaling equation of hysteria is just numerical values that can be altered by the developers.

It could take into account any melee damage, speed, and elemental mod...to whatever degree..... DE made it.

The area the claw swings cover can technically hit something around three targets per swing but it is so small that is not always reasonable.

This too can be adjusted to hit a wider area just by altering the values and perhaps adding a slight change in the length of the claws or adding a sort air swipe animation or something. This area covered could even be altered based on the currently equipped weapon if DE wanted to go that route. 

TLDR: Factually speaking: Valkyr does not have to stick with her normal melee weapon to get all of whichever benefits from that weapon and the mods it has, have the right output and wide swings.

 

For the record-Back when Hysteria's animations were just the slow floaty claw thing I recommended just letting us go back to using our regular melee weapon. But after all of the work DE has put in on animations from the clawing to unique wall crawling...

I would say that it is a bad use of a developers time and assets to just dump all of that work to achieve the same/similar goals that they could get from mostly just altering numerical values.

Though, if necessary, I suppose it is possible that DE could find another use for those same animations.

In the end whether one wants Valkyr to bust out claws or stick with what she is holding will come down to simple stylistic preference.

 

I'll point out that these above mentioned problems with hysteria's poor performance of melee output is pretty much exactly what I was talking about earlier. The majority of the improvements to hysteria I recommend fall right in line with fixing these particular concerns we have now both expressed.

 

As I explained before, I think a defensive buff is a good idea as well (the debuff idea is interesting)

Now the word "resistance" infers a matter of magnitude. We would have to nail down exactly what CC would effect Valkyr and what wouldn't. 

In my view I think that being locked into melee mode is exactly why having CC immunity makes sense for her.

She absolutely has to close in on targets no matter where they are to do any damage in that kind of mode.(well there is ripcord..)

And if she is no longer invulnerable but actually taking damage from enemy fire she needs to close in sooner rather than later.

So the CC immunity allows the more aggressive approach. Though to be fair CC resistance, depending on it's magnitude, could provide an almost identical effect.

 

I'm going to apply a well known game design philosophy-Reward drives activity.

Passive healing is gained over time. This can reward players for waiting things out, taking cover and general inaction.

Life steal is gained from direct offensive action. This specifically rewards players for actively engaging and killing enemies.

So I think that passive healing is a far less ideal way for her to recover health than life steal.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a broader sense of things it's good to remember that Hysteria is meant to be some sort of "rage state" so it's mechanics should promote more aggressive play. That is how theme and mechanics OR intent and execution will come together cohesively.

Factually speaking no but her animations would have to switch to reflect these changes and there would be less preference and personalization involved

 

If valkyr  could use any weapon then the claw animations could go to a new weapon so it wouldnt be wasted time at all

 

Our earlier talks were less about hysteria and more about pointless semantics so dont sugarcoat that

 

With no CC immunity or resistance i have little trouble tackling any enemy head on. Thats why i suggested resistace rather than immunity

 

Making her totally immune would just make it too strong and too easy to kill

 

The suggestion for passive healing as a replacement for life steal comes because life strike can handle all fo valkyrs healing needs and more

 

Adding more would almost waste one or the other

 

A passive healing like rejuvination that isnt stopped by taking damage would just be something that conflicts less

 

Theres also inverse armor gain for HP loss or attacking strength gained under the same conditions

[Insidiatorii]

As a base premise, frames should be and feel what they look like.

 

How anyone can see Rhino as a creampuff is beyond me. Have you even taken a closer look at him? The thickness of his leg plates is probably about an inch. His chestplate is probably about the same thickness. If Rhino doesn't have armour, noone should.

 

Berserkers usually sacrifice armour for mobility, that is what differentiates them from a knight on foot.

High pain tolerance does not equal armour. Armour prevents damage, pain tolerance lets you fight on while taking damage.

The latter is not well reflected mechanically in warframe, but Valkyrs high base health is explained by that.

Compare Wolverine to the Silver Samurai. The former is a berserker, the latter is a knight.

 

It is clear from Valkyrs appearance that her armour was largely stripped off. Thus, her armour values should be low and her runspeed should be high. When I see her, I don't see a tank. I see, in DOTA terms, an assassin, a melee DPS machine.

Her high amount of health reflects her pain tolerance, because the time she can absorb damage before passing out is higher than for most other frames. By the power of her skills she can also regenerate her health to prolong combat.

 

Again, I differentiate Valkyr from Rhino only because they are both Prime examples of visual and gameplay misrepresentation.

I have no intention of nerfing Valkyr. I would just tweak her, to up her shields and down her armour. Her 4 is broken and Warcry should not improve armour but increase runspeed or do sth. else entirely.

 

Back to Rhino, Rhino is too ability dependent to be considered a tank. The only thing that really makes him a tank is Iron Skin.

While his armour value is the second highest in the game, that doesn't really work, because no self heal. Scaling enemy damage prevents him from fulfilling his tank role in higher levels because Iron Skin just melts away in seconds. Rhino neither has self heal like Valkyr and Iron Skin quickly evaporates unless you use cover.

And that is exactly what Iron Skin should not be. It should enable you to survive without cover in critical situations for a limited amount of time.

At the moment it is a constant companion of carelessness.

 

Iron Skin needs to be reactive and situational. It should not be a no brainer spam ability. It needs to synergize with Rhino's basic theme and strengths and it needs to scale properly from early game to end game. It also should punish you slightly for using it in the wrong situation.

Thus it:

1)Should either be on a short duration timer (10 seconds max) or be a toggle ability.

2)Should interact with his high armour value somehow.

3)Should bring percentage based buffs instead of absolute numbers buffs.

4)It should also have a small detrimental effect for using it, to discourage mindless spamming. I consider drawing aggro a small detrimental effect but many players just want exactly that and see it as a benefit, so it's not really an option. The downside should again emphasize heaviness, which is why I suggested to increase movement stamina cost while in this mode. Halving jump hight is also a fine option.

5)It should not allow Rhino to replenish his shields while active unless he takes no damage also. He will also not be immune to magnetic procs halving his shields, although he will be immune to all other procs and crits.

Thank you for your feedback!

[Ronyn]

Factually speaking no but her animations would have to switch to reflect these changes

Again-Animations wouldn't necessarily have to change to any real degree. In the same way that the reach mod extends a weapons range without an animation change, so could this effect. If required a claw shaped sliced -wind-like-particle effect could be added on a the appropriate distance for visual representation. 

 

there would be less preference and personalization involved

Indeed. If DE wants Valkyr to be the "claw lady" it they are choosing their goal for the frames identity over player personalization. 

 

If valkyr  could use any weapon then the claw animations could go to a new weapon so it wouldnt be wasted time at all

Dude, I already said that they could put the animations elsewhere if needed. Though for it to all be no wasted time at all they'd also have to find a place for her hysteria mode's unique movement animations.

 

Again-In the end whether one wants Valkyr to bust out claws or stick with what she is holding will come down to simple stylistic preference.

 

Our earlier talks were less about hysteria and more about pointless semantics so dont sugarcoat that

While our earlier talks were riddled with various communication issues and other subjects...

my specific statements about how Hysteria should work were about how hysteria should work.

 

With no CC immunity or resistance i have little trouble tackling any enemy head on. Thats why i suggested resistace rather than immunity

Making her totally immune would just make it too strong and too easy to kill

Whether that would make her too strong is debatable but I get why someone would feel that way.

 

The suggestion for passive healing as a replacement for life steal comes because life strike can handle all fo valkyrs healing needs and more

Adding more would almost waste one or the other

If we are operating under the idea that lifestrike provides all the healing Valkyr needs then why give a hysteria effect at all?

One of the stance mods replenishes Hp as well to some degree, does that factor in to what an ability should or shouldn't do?

To get to the point-

Potentially there are now and will grow to be a lot of different mods that will do a lot of different things.

If we avoid giving certain effects to certain frames abilities based on where a mod might also do a similar job...

we will be limiting a variety of potential effects.

Part of the reality of certain abilities is that they make the need for certain mods/builds lessened or even not needed.

And vice versa...

 

A passive healing like rejuvination that isnt stopped by taking damage would just be something that conflicts less

That's not the issue. It doesn't have to be stopped by taking damage, the player is still able to gain health by not engaging the enemy meaning they now gain a benefit to disengaging that they simply would not have with life steal.

 

Theres also inverse armor gain for HP loss or attacking strength gained under the same conditions

What are you saying exactly? Would you mind re-wording that?

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ronyn

[Artekkor]

So i can see i'm not the only one who bothered by Rhino not being the tank that he was clamed to be. I actually wanted to create my own topic about this, but since i found that topic i just leave it here.

 

I really think that Rhino right now is not good enough as a warframe. He have strong sides, yes, he is perfect to destroy low lvl enemies (below 30) but he's not the tank that he was supposed to be, or claimed to be. Iron Skin gives him additional tankines, but this tankines turns into just 2-3 additional second of living against high-lvl enemies. Not only that, Iron Skin in current state is a boring skill. It's so boring, that i, instead of spaming it whenever i have energy for that (how many people do), i activate it ONLY when i need this. Let's say when i see that my 1050 shields starts go to zero with speed of 300 shield per second.

 

Here's a little idea that i had while thinking about it. Give Iron Skin some of the mechanics of Frost's snowball! At least the one that gives snowball 2-3 second after cast when it consumes all incoming damage adding it to its health's. If Iron Skin would have that - that would be just freakin awesome and actually making Rhino a usefull tank in high-end game when enemies deal 200 damage per bullet.. Ofc just adding that would be a direct buff, so to counter this change i would suggest lowering the default amount of Iron Skin's HP by, let's say, 50%. People then will actually use Iron Skin with a strategy, when it needs to be used, instead just spaming it whenever they have energy to do so (which is silly in my opinion).

 

I really hope that DE are actually reading these topics, and we dont talk here over nothing wasting our time with dying hopes and dreams. Because i love Rhino, i play him all the time but... Seeing people throwing dirt at him, being not usefull enough for the team and his Iron Skin being nothing at high-end game (against Trinity's godmode for the whole team for example) just makes me sad and depressive.

Thanks for attention.

 

EDIT: I just saw somebody above having the same idea as i do (Reaver_X). Glad that i'm not the only one with that idea.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Artek94

[Llyssa]

I find it amusing that the OP was edited to admit to using the rhino almost exclusively.

 

Perhaps actually play the other 20 frames before suggesting things? At best, your times stated (150 hrs rhino, 250 total) would mean that you've spent no more than 5 hours playing any other frame.

 

Also, rhino looks like he's "muffin topping" out of a very tight framework--like he's just so fat he barely fits in his warframe. But hey, if you want to imagine that's "armor", more power to ya'.

 

Also, if we're modding frames based on "looks like", he appears to be wearing a tight corset, which would suggest he can't breath as well as other frames, and thus, his presence should double the rate at which life support drains on survival missions.

 

Of course, as the OP argument is actually based on "I only play rhino and I want him to be even-more-OP-yet", it neglects all of the other frames and all of their appearances, except valkyr(who it claims should be heavily nerfed for no meaningful reason).

 

I find it odd that other posters are littering a thread named "rhino, rhino, rhino" with "let's nerf valk" talk.

 

He needs Iron Skin rebalanced, and that's it.

 

EDIT: And again, if rhino needs any other changes than that, he needs a severe nerf, as he's already unbalanced compared to the other frames.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Llyssa

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I like 1 and 3. But I don't think damage reduction is best for Iron Skin. Instead, I would make it duration or energy drain based, preferably the latter. With Iron Skin relying on energy drain, players would only activate it when they really needed, and it would never be able to be used to last an entire mission at low levels, trivializing content and leaving new players unprepared for higher levels, nor would it become worthless at high levels as it would scale indefinitely. 4 doesn't matter to me too much, although it would certainly make more sense than the current Stomp.

 

I would not be opposed to Rhino's armor being increased to 300 or so armor. His speed, however, needs to be fixed. Rhino Prime shouldn't have the speed increase it has. I would bring its speed to .95, so that it's between Rhino (.9) and the current Rhino Prime (1.0). I would also decrease the Vanguard Helmet speed increase to .15 (currently .25). Both of these bring Rhino's speed in line with Saryn, who's speed is capable of staying with a group, but doesn't allow her to be a ridiculous speed runner tank like the current Rhino Prime-Vanguard.

 

Finally, as for the Valkyr talk, no she doesn't need less armor. When it comes to Valkyr, you have to think of armor as "pain tolerance". She got tortured and survived, and now can take a lot more damage than a frame her size normally would. Valkyr with less armor is a pointless frame. Her high armor compliments Warcry and Paralysis as close range melee-oriented powers. It also benefits Hysteria by allowing her to safely take health damage, but Hysteria is broken so that's beside the point.

[Artekkor]

I find it amusing that the OP was edited to admit to using the rhino almost exclusively.

 

Perhaps actually play the other 20 frames before suggesting things? At best, your times stated (150 hrs rhino, 250 total) would mean that you've spent no more than 5 hours playing any other frame.

 

Also, rhino looks like he's "muffin topping" out of a very tight framework--like he's just so fat he barely fits in his warframe. But hey, if you want to imagine that's "armor", more power to ya'.

 

Also, if we're modding frames based on "looks like", he appears to be wearing a tight corset, which would suggest he can't breath as well as other frames, and thus, his presence should double the rate at which life support drains on survival missions.

 

Of course, as the OP argument is actually based on "I only play rhino and I want him to be even-more-OP-yet", it neglects all of the other frames and all of their appearances, except valkyr(who it claims should be heavily nerfed for no meaningful reason).

 

I find it odd that other posters are littering a thread named "rhino, rhino, rhino" with "let's nerf valk" talk.

 

He needs Iron Skin rebalanced, and that's it.

 

EDIT: And again, if rhino needs any other changes than that, he needs a severe nerf, as he's already unbalanced compared to the other frames.

 

I dont think he's OP. Not so OP as people think he is. Let's see.

 

His stats are not OP. To be said, they exactly one as the Frost's. And i cant remember anybody talking about frost as OP warframe.

 

Rhino's Charge claimed to be the most useless skill of his. Almost nobody uses it. And even that augmentation from syndicates dont change much, considering that nobody knows how good it actually is.

 

Iron Skin makes him unthouchable, but mostly for low lvl enemies from 0 to 30. After 30, Iron Skill just gives him a little bit more time to survive, against 50+ lvl enemies is just 1-2 additinal seconds of life under fire, no more. Good way to survive a little bit longer, but Trinity would surive longer.

 

Roar is a strong skill, considering that it gives 50% damage bonus to current damage mods included. But it uses 75 energy, which is a lot and with default Rhino's energy pool its just 1-2 uses. I rarely see Rhino's using this skill because nobody wants lost half or more of their energy for 15 seconds of bonus damage. Actually that's the reason why i use power efficiency build on Rhino, trying to spam Roar whenever i can.

 

Stomp is probably the mose usefull skill of Rhino, which is sad since it's his main ability that takes all the energy to be used (again - fixed by power efficiency). Also low cast speed can be considered a good counter to all of this.

 

Conclusion: Rhino is good against high-lvl oponents only while he can use Stomp, or, at least, Roar. His survivality meanwhile is the same as Frost's or Oberon's, only he cant heal himself, and his Iron Skin dont scale to end game as Frost's Snowball does.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Artek94

[Artekkor]

I would not be opposed to Rhino's armor being increased to 300 or so armor. His speed, however, needs to be fixed. Rhino Prime shouldn't have the speed increase it has. I would bring its speed to .95, so that it's between Rhino (.9) and the current Rhino Prime (1.0). I would also decrease the Vanguard Helmet speed increase to .15 (currently .25). Both of these bring Rhino's speed in line with Saryn, who's speed is capable of staying with a group, but doesn't allow her to be a ridiculous speed runner tank like the current Rhino Prime-Vanguard.

 

Maybe you right about Rhino's Prime speed nerf. But i dont think that nerf of the arcana helmet will make sense, since it's already nerfed, almost deleted from the game to be exactly. This helmet is only obtainable through other players for like 200-300 plat. And you know what? I'm not going to buy this thing. Not only because 200+ plat is a lot, but because i want helmets to be what they are, and what they supposed to be - just a cosmetic item. If people really want to give their plat to somebody else to be OP wearing a helmet that you probably dont even like - it's their choice.

 

Should i remind that since those helmets are not obtainable anymore, their amount not only not increases but probably decreases since there is even a special blueprint to turn it from a game-changing item into just a cosmetic?

Edited November 9, 2014 by Artek94

[Insidiatorii]

I like 1 and 3. But I don't think damage reduction is best for Iron Skin. Instead, I would make it duration or energy drain based, preferably the latter. With Iron Skin relying on energy drain, players would only activate it when they really needed, and it would never be able to be used to last an entire mission at low levels, trivializing content and leaving new players unprepared for higher levels, nor would it become worthless at high levels as it would scale indefinitely. 4 doesn't matter to me too much, although it would certainly make more sense than the current Stomp.

 

I would not be opposed to Rhino's armor being increased to 300 or so armor. His speed, however, needs to be fixed. Rhino Prime shouldn't have the speed increase it has. I would bring its speed to .95, so that it's between Rhino (.9) and the current Rhino Prime (1.0). I would also decrease the Vanguard Helmet speed increase to .15 (currently .25). Both of these bring Rhino's speed in line with Saryn, who's speed is capable of staying with a group, but doesn't allow her to be a ridiculous speed runner tank like the current Rhino Prime-Vanguard.

 

Finally, as for the Valkyr talk, no she doesn't need less armor. When it comes to Valkyr, you have to think of armor as "pain tolerance". She got tortured and survived, and now can take a lot more damage than a frame her size normally would. Valkyr with less armor is a pointless frame. Her high armor compliments Warcry and Paralysis as close range melee-oriented powers. It also benefits Hysteria by allowing her to safely take health damage, but Hysteria is broken so that's beside the point.

No, pain has nothing to do with armour at all. If you were to be stabbed for example, and lets say it hurt at immense levels, is it because you have less armour on your body? Or is it because you have more armour on you? Valkyr does't have a "pain tolerence" never once was this aid anywhere, it has been said by fan fictions, it makes no sense whatsoever, if there was a Knight with 1in thick steel plateed armour, he would have the same amount of health as any man, but he would be harder to kill because of his high armour. Also, this thread is not about Valkyr, it is about Rhino/P, and if Valkyr was to have a "high pain tolerance" she would have immense levels of health, not armour. Here is another example, If a man or woman has very thick, tough skin, she/he would still have the same amount of health, and would still take the same amount of pain if the armor was breached. Here is the definition of armour from Dictionary.com;

 

noun

1.any covering worn as a defense against weapons.

 

2.a suit of armor.

 

3.a metallic sheathing or protective covering, especially metal plates, used on warships, armored vehicles, airplanes, and fortifications.

 

4.mechanized units of military forces, as armored divisions.

 

5.Also called armament. any protective covering, as on certain animals, insects, or plants.

 

6.any quality, characteristic, situation, or thing that serves as protection:

A chilling courtesy was his only armor.

 

7.the outer, protective wrapping of metal, usually fine, braided steel wires, on a cable.

Edited November 10, 2014 by [DE]Danielle
Aggressive Caps

[Ronyn]

Whoever attempts to equate armor with pain tolerance needs to stop.

Damage resistance and pain tolerance are not the same thing.

Many years ago some monks sat down in a public area and lit themselves on fire.

They sat still through their flesh burning off of their skin.

THAT is pain tolerance.

But their bodies didn't burn any slower. They lost body parts at the same rate as people with no pain tolerance.

Pain tolerance could be considered the reason someone is immune to a status effect in some cases.

But damage is damage. Pain is pain.

[Azawarau]

Again-Animations wouldn't necessarily have to change to any real degree. In the same way that the reach mod extends a weapons range without an animation change, so could this effect. If required a claw shaped sliced -wind-like-particle effect could be added on a the appropriate distance for visual representation. 

 

Indeed. If DE wants Valkyr to be the "claw lady" it they are choosing their goal for the frames identity over player personalization. 

 

Dude, I already said that they could put the animations elsewhere if needed. Though for it to all be no wasted time at all they'd also have to find a place for her hysteria mode's unique movement animations.

 

Again-In the end whether one wants Valkyr to bust out claws or stick with what she is holding will come down to simple stylistic preference.

 

While our earlier talks were riddled with various communication issues and other subjects...

my specific statements about how Hysteria should work were about how hysteria should work.

 

Whether that would make her too strong is debatable but I get why someone would feel that way.

 

If we are operating under the idea that lifestrike provides all the healing Valkyr needs then why give a hysteria effect at all?

One of the stance mods replenishes Hp as well to some degree, does that factor in to what an ability should or shouldn't do?

To get to the point-

Potentially there are now and will grow to be a lot of different mods that will do a lot of different things.

If we avoid giving certain effects to certain frames abilities based on where a mod might also do a similar job...

we will be limiting a variety of potential effects.

Part of the reality of certain abilities is that they make the need for certain mods/builds lessened or even not needed.

And vice versa...

 

That's not the issue. It doesn't have to be stopped by taking damage, the player is still able to gain health by not engaging the enemy meaning they now gain a benefit to disengaging that they simply would not have with life steal.

 

What are you saying exactly? Would you mind re-wording that?

I feel like you purposely let most of what i say fly over your head

 

You missed the dot on each and every reply before the last 2 or 3

 

So i can see i'm not the only one who bothered by Rhino not being the tank that he was clamed to be. I actually wanted to create my own topic about this, but since i found that topic i just leave it here.

 

I really think that Rhino right now is not good enough as a warframe. He have strong sides, yes, he is perfect to destroy low lvl enemies (below 30) but he's not the tank that he was supposed to be, or claimed to be. Iron Skin gives him additional tankines, but this tankines turns into just 2-3 additional second of living against high-lvl enemies. Not only that, Iron Skin in current state is a boring skill. It's so boring, that i, instead of spaming it whenever i have energy for that (how many people do), i activate it ONLY when i need this. Let's say when i see that my 1050 shields starts go to zero with speed of 300 shield per second.

 

Here's a little idea that i had while thinking about it. Give Iron Skin some of the mechanics of Frost's snowball! At least the one that gives snowball 2-3 second after cast when it consumes all incoming damage adding it to its health's. If Iron Skin would have that - that would be just freakin awesome and actually making Rhino a usefull tank in high-end game when enemies deal 200 damage per bullet.. Ofc just adding that would be a direct buff, so to counter this change i would suggest lowering the default amount of Iron Skin's HP by, let's say, 50%. People then will actually use Iron Skin with a strategy, when it needs to be used, instead just spaming it whenever they have energy to do so (which is silly in my opinion).

 

I really hope that DE are actually reading these topics, and we dont talk here over nothing wasting our time with dying hopes and dreams. Because i love Rhino, i play him all the time but... Seeing people throwing dirt at him, being not usefull enough for the team and his Iron Skin being nothing at high-end game (against Trinity's godmode for the whole team for example) just makes me sad and depressive.

Thanks for attention.

 

EDIT: I just saw somebody above having the same idea as i do (Reaver_X). Glad that i'm not the only one with that idea.

He can spam armor that goes up to 2800? Without even adding TF ...which is already more than his max EHP and its spammable and has CC immunity

 

If hes gonna get much tankier hes gonna have to lose something from iron skin and CC immunity looks like a good cantidate

 

Either that or add a duration

 

Also if he does get a globe effect it wont change that hes OP on levels under 30

 

Hed have to lose most or all of his HP to balance out

 

To be honest im more than sure a short term mobile invi with IS will be abused one way or another

 

Whoever attempts to equate armor with pain tolerance needs to stop.

Damage resistance and pain tolerance are not the same thing.

Many years ago some monks sat down in a public area and lit themselves on fire.

They sat still through their flesh burning off of their skin.

THAT is pain tolerance.

But their bodies didn't burn any slower. They lost body parts at the same rate as people with no pain tolerance.

Pain tolerance could be considered the reason someone is immune to a status effect in some cases.

But damage is damage. Pain is pain.

Lets just assume youre right

 

Whos to say valkyrs skin isnt just that much harder than rhinos on top of pain tolerance?

 

Not to mention her armor actually reduces the damage of procs >Status effects< so pain tolerance certainly is there

 

Call it what you want but the reasoning is there

 

Saying rhino looks tougher alone doesnt prove anything

[The_Traitor_Executioner]

I feel like you purposely let most of what i say fly over your head

 

You missed the dot on each and every reply before the last 2 or 3

 

He can spam armor that goes up to 2800? Without even adding TF ...which is already more than his max EHP and its spammable and has CC immunity

 

If hes gonna get much tankier hes gonna have to lose something from iron skin and CC immunity looks like a good cantidate

 

Either that or add a duration

 

Also if he does get a globe effect it wont change that hes OP on levels under 30

 

Hed have to lose most or all of his HP to balance out

 

To be honest im more than sure a short term mobile invi with IS will be abused one way or another

 

Lets just assume youre right

 

Whos to say valkyrs skin isnt just that much harder than rhinos on top of pain tolerance?

 

Not to mention her armor actually reduces the damage of procs >Status effects< so pain tolerance certainly is there

 

Call it what you want but the reasoning is there

 

Saying rhino looks tougher alone doesnt prove anything

 

Valkyr is a frail cat lady.  Rhino is a massive buff master race wearing several tons of armor.  It doesn't take much thought to say which of the two should have more armor.  As for Rhino losing CC immunity.. if you seriously suggested that, I don't think we need to go much further here.

 

Also, you're kind of fanboying over Valkyr.  Just saying.

[YYYo]

Guys, armor is not that useful, check this formula.

 

Damage = modded Damage / (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

With an armor of 800, an shot with a damage value of 200, would turn into 50. And values of 50, would turn into 15. Sounds good? yes, but it doesn't work that well with big numbers of enemies, and in warframe there can be a lot of enemies in one room. That's where Rhino stands out from the valkyr, (even though i believe rhino's shield should be increased to 200). The only reason Valkyr's shield is so low, is for people who would spam her third ability, and that's why her ult is made, i still agree it is op, i would suggest her ultimate starts requiring more energy, so people would really time it.