Enemies, Quality Or Quantity

[Adder9]

I've been thinking about this for some time, and I wanted to gather some community thoughts and suggestions on the idea. For the brand new player, I'd say that the number and strength of enemies is relatively perfect up through the assassination of Vor. This most certainly should be left alone. But when it comes to other missions and higher levels, I have a feeling that the enemy -tenno balance is a little off. In most missions, we take on literally hordes of opponents and simply mow them down. At the same time, our enemies only really have a chance if they combine their collective spitwad guns to swamp us. I'm toying with the ideaof proposing that the enemies should either have their base damage increased or have their durability increased, or both, the idea being that a handful of enemies should still give a high level tenno pause on an equal level mission, much like a group of 4 or 5 grineer does for a new player. I intend to refine this idea over time based on group ideas. What do you say, tenno? Shall we continue to slaughter aunts, or would you like a little more oomph to your adversaries?

[BrotherIcarus]

Artificial difficulty is not what we need in the wider game. 

[direcyphre]

There are endless and other missions for enemies with higher base damage output. Hind gets a pretty high fire rate later on in levels, for instance.

 

The idea of the game is not to have a small squad of enemies to cause a tenno pause. Widespread slaugther and usage of fanciful, mind-blowing abilities has been the root of the game for quite some time. Currently, Tactical Alerts are providing a different sort of challenge, because ultimately it doesn't matter how much durability or damage enemies put out, players will overcome it just like they already do in high wave endless mission types.

[Liminal]

I'd like to minimize scaling to the point where killing guys in Mercury takes almost the same time as killing guys in Pluto (with the same gear). Then, add different enemy types with different mechanics as you progress, along with an increasing number of enemy troops.

 

It'll never happen though. People like their +4000% damage boosts :/

[Sitchrea]

I'd like to minimize scaling to the point where killing guys in Mercury takes almost the same time as killing guys in Pluto (with the same gear). Then, add different enemy types with different mechanics as you progress, along with an increasing number of enemy troops.

 

It'll never happen though. People like their +4000% damage boosts :/

^This^

 

That way the game is skill based, not held up by the Golden 4 key.

[MrNonApplicable]

I would love to see this happen, adding more challenge would help counter warframe's repetitive nature. 

[Adder9]

I'd like to minimize scaling to the point where killing guys in Mercury takes almost the same time as killing guys in Pluto (with the same gear). Then, add different enemy types with different mechanics as you progress, along with an increasing number of enemy troops.

It'll never happen though. People like their +4000% damage boosts :/

That's kind of the idea that I was having. I'd rather like to see my foes level with me almost.

Then, the game favors strategy over brute force, stealth takes on a higher importance, and the monotony issue is solved as well.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Adder9

[noveltyhero]

I think we can have both, quantity with an RNG fix to repetitiveness on fodder enemies:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/298517-how-rng-can-compliment-enemy-variety/

 

and quality with some unique enemies here and there as well as meaningful bosses and minibosses.

[Adder9]

I think that that's a good idea. I thought that maybe it would be good to place certain stronger enemies in few groups of weaker ones. Rather than leveling the grineer trooper, for example, the number of grineer trooper could be increased, and, to add flavor, some sort of grinner trooper sergeant or something could be present. I think that the bosses are done quite well. They are tough and feel it. Mini-bosses, that sounds like an interesting and good idea to me. 

I'm not trying to say here that we should never, at higher levels still run into a group of run of the mill enemy fodder, only that it might be more interesting and more fun to have less of that with a larger focus on tougher enemies. Bombards for example, could be more frequent on a saturn level mission, with normal grinner less frequent, and those that are present clustered for maximum fun. 

[Adder9]

Artificial difficulty is not what we need in the wider game. 

Would increasing enemy difficulty be artificial? Handicapping players certainly is, but I wouldn't consider upping the challenge ratio to be this way.

[BrotherIcarus]

Would increasing enemy difficulty be artificial? Handicapping players certainly is, but I wouldn't consider upping the challenge ratio to be this way.

You suggested increasing the enemies health and damage. Those are both artificial difficulty. Lets say there is a two step combo to defeating an enemy, first you roll out the way of its shots then you shoot it and it dies. Increasing the enemies health just means I have to repeat the combo in order to kill them or if you increase its damage it takes nothing extra to for me to defeat the enemy thus it is no more challenging. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

Would increasing enemy difficulty be artificial? Handicapping players certainly is, but I wouldn't consider upping the challenge ratio to be this way.

 

Where is the difference between handicapping players and buffing enemies?

If enemies are too less of an effort to kill for you, then play T4, high level grineer and equip only half the mods or only half modded. There you go.

And the best part is: You can do that without bothering others ;)

Edited November 20, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[rockscl]

What he means by artificial difficulty is that you would be doing the same thing, but you will just need stronger equipment, what most players seem to be waiting for is new tactical approach from enemies in order to give a new degree of difficulty instead of escalating numbers

 

About your appreciation of tennos killing hordes, that seems pretty ok as you become a stronger tenno, again, what is wrong about that is the lack of tactically stronger enemies, be it becoz of their cooperation, the adition of smarter units, or other things

[Kruglov]

We could easily have both.

 

There's no reason some new advanced behaviors couldnt be added to the enemies we have now.

[Adder9]

You suggested increasing the enemies health and damage. Those are both artificial difficulty. Lets say there is a two step combo to defeating an enemy, first you roll out the way of its shots then you shoot it and it dies. Increasing the enemies health just means I have to repeat the combo in order to kill them or if you increase its damage it takes nothing extra to for me to defeat the enemy thus it is no more challenging. 

 

I see your point. Perhaps increasing the accuracy of certain enemies would be a non-artificial way to increase the difficulty. I can't say much as far as programming in new tactics since I am not a programmer.  But there has to be a way to make this somehow less of a one sided slaughter fest.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I'd like to minimize scaling to the point where killing guys in Mercury takes almost the same time as killing guys in Pluto (with the same gear). Then, add different enemy types with different mechanics as you progress, along with an increasing number of enemy troops.

 

It'll never happen though. People like their +4000% damage boosts :/

 

 

^This^

 

That way the game is skill based, not held up by the Golden 4 key.

 

To be honest, that is a really bad idea. If there's no sense of player power progression (ie Pluto enemies take the same amount of effort as Mercury ones), players aren't going to feel like actually putting in the effort to progress.

It's not going to result in skill based gameplay, it's just going to result in players wandering off because there's no reason to invest their time and money in the game if they're always the same power level.

I'm not saying Warframe couldn't use more of a challenge for high level players, but cutting off player progression to do it is absolutely not the way forward. There's a reason that no game remotely similar to Warframe in gameplay has a sidegrade system like that.

[Ska-boo]

Perhaps increasing the accuracy of certain enemies

M8, how long have you been playing? Enemies have 100% accuracy and it's limited only by the accuracy of the weapon. Corpus guys cannot hit you not because they can't aim, but because Dera has such spread. Grineer with hit-scan weapon always score a hit if there is a clear line of fire between you and them. Even if you run, even if you wallrun, even if you fly on zorencopters with  speed of 10000000 kmph

Edited November 20, 2014 by Ska-boo

[Adder9]

M8, how long have you been playing? Enemies have 100% accuracy and it's limited only by the accuracy of the weapon. Corpus guys cannot hit you not because they can't aim, but because Dera has such spread. Grineer with hit-scan weapon always score a hit if there is a clear line of fire between you and them. Even if you run, even if you wallrun, even if you fly on zorencopters with  speed of 10000000 kmph

 

Few months. I always chalked up all the rounds missing to the AI, not to the weapons themselves. Evidently then, that would not be a fix.

[vaugahn]

Grineer with hit-scan weapon always score a hit if there is a clear line of fire between you and them. Even if you run, even if you wallrun, even if you fly on zorencopters with  speed of 10000000 kmph

 

Nope.

 

There's some sort of algorithm that determines when Grineer can hit you, and with weapons like the Grakata their aim is even worse due to natural spread. Try standing around near some low level Grineer, you'll see shots hit things around you. 

 

Grineer can hit you during a 10000000 kmph zorencopter, but the chance of that is pretty low. You're moving faster than they can track at that point. 

[Adder9]

To be honest, that is a really bad idea. If there's no sense of player power progression (ie Pluto enemies take the same amount of effort as Mercury ones), players aren't going to feel like actually putting in the effort to progress.

It's not going to result in skill based gameplay, it's just going to result in players wandering off because there's no reason to invest their time and money in the game if they're always the same power level.

I'm not saying Warframe couldn't use more of a challenge for high level players, but cutting off player progression to do it is absolutely not the way forward. There's a reason that no game remotely similar to Warframe in gameplay has a sidegrade system like that.

 

Yes, removing any sort of bonus from progression or good modding will remove most of the sense of accomplishment. That would be why part of my original solution was to 'artificially' increase the enemy difficulty by increasing their armor/health/shields, or, primarily by increasing their weapon damage. If we can mod our weapons, increase our health/shields/armor, and add sentinels and companions, as well as deadlier and more accurate weapons, then why can't they? 

[Donnell]

I enjoy a mass of infected to slice with melee but I would like the rest to be a little more tactical or have unique units that rally others. Perhaps like mini-bosses in front of the locked door? so not only do you need two people to open it, you have need at least two to take on the mini-boss?

[Guest]

[Azawarau]

Artificial difficulty is not what we need in the wider game. 

I disagree a bit

 

We need more of both in some cases and less of the "just really tough" in others

 

Ive had this conversation countless times in another forum with another forumer for another game

 

Before you count it out just listen

 

In this game enemies in both the hard and elite and even the levels above elite can simply be sweeped out

 

They tend to spawn long after the players arrive with more, and i really mean more, than enough time for players to set up and burst the hell out of them

 

He argues that the AI needs to go up but enemies shouldnt be tougher

 

I tell him t wont mater because we can sweep with the weakest attacks that cover large areas and single target attacks simply have little place in the game

 

In warframe its nearly the same

 

Most enemies can simply be sweeped with powers

 

Grineer are a bit special in this as their armor keeps players from simply 42winning which is likely why theyre largely considered the hardest faction (they most certainly are not)

 

Corpus are soft as donuts but hit hard

 

Corrupted are fairly soft aside from heavy gunners who can actually take a fair beating

 

Infested are also very soft but thats offset by the DR they get from ancients

 

Though thats offset but powers trivializing them entirely

 

Though because enemies can scale theyre decently tough on high levels but their damage is also deadly (some weapons really make them butter still though)

 

Id say all in all increase toughness of non grineer and make grineer softer along with making enemy AI a bit better

 

Also slow damage and armor scaling a bit

 

That probably sounds more mixed up than intended

[Liminal]

To be honest, that is a really bad idea. If there's no sense of player power progression (ie Pluto enemies take the same amount of effort as Mercury ones), players aren't going to feel like actually putting in the effort to progress.

It's not going to result in skill based gameplay, it's just going to result in players wandering off because there's no reason to invest their time and money in the game if they're always the same power level. [but others would surely get in as a result, and now both of us have CITATION NEEDED]

I'm not saying Warframe couldn't use more of a challenge for high level players, but cutting off player progression to do it is absolutely not the way forward. There's a reason that no game remotely similar to Warframe in gameplay has a sidegrade system like that.

Not really, you get options and shinies by progressing, and you even get more options when it comes to customization, because mandatory mods would disappear (some say stuff like RoF would take its place but that can be worked around too) if done correctly.

 

What's the point of getting bigger numbers if the enemy gets the bigger numbers as well?

- If the number-getting is actually balanced between you and the enemy then you won't see a difference.

- If it's unbalanced in your favor (like it is now) your progress makes the game easier (too easy tbh).

- If it's unbalanced in the enemy's favor you feel like you are "progressing backwards" (like Borderlands, that made me abandon the game).

- In any case: you can't go play Earth with your maxed gear and meet a challenge because it's a walk in the park.

 

I think no other game has that kind of system because, for starters, there are not a lot of games like Warframe. This is pretty unique and I believe they could definitely pull something like this off. However, other similar-ish games do something like this.

Progression doesn't need to be vertical to keep people interested (doesn't apply to everyone obviously). Think of all the online shooters that (because of pvp) give starting players equipment that will make them somewhat effective, just not specialized. They don't get more powerful overall as they play, yet people still play them. It doesn't even need to be sidegrades-only, just (way) softer scaling, it's insane. I have never seen a non-rpg game in which numbers grew this quickly.

 

If numbers didn't vary this much you could always play any mission and not obliterate everything without any difficulty whatsoever. And this is coming from someone who doesn't play T4 because I can't be arsed to make that much of an effort. I do enjoy killing hordes of guys, but OHKing everything (including heavies) isn't good in my book.

 

Again, this is just what I would personally like above all, and I know it's unfeasible.

Edited November 20, 2014 by The_Doc

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Artificial difficulty is not what we need in the wider game.

Wrong game to play then. Ubisoft games and the new Shadow of Mordor tend to do better at this.

I'd try those.

Edited November 20, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r