So That Shotgun Nerf...

[kill-it-kid]

As a proud citizen of the state of Kentucky, where it's law to have more guns than an island nations army, I'll have you know that no shotgun is worth a damn out to 200 yards. I have several pumps, a couple autos, and even a bolt action rifled slug gun for hunting deer (for Indiana use). The Slug guns "effective range" is closer to 100-150 yards. The Hek is no slug gun. Which means it's replicating a gun firing some form of "shot". Most likely the commonly heard of "Buck Shot". Which after 50-75 yards ain't much worth a damn.

As a gun owner, I have come to ignore what people say about shotguns (or really any firearm) on the internet about video games.

 

Because, you know, videogames. They function on their own logic.

Edited April 27, 2013 by clopin

[Aramahn]

As a gun owner, I have come to ignore what people say about shotguns (or really any firearm) on the internet about video games.

 

Because, you know, videogames. They function on their own logic.

I totally agree. But I was quoting a dude that was referring to real world stats.

And to further nail your point home, if you were to do some video game math, most "sniper rifles" let you reach out to what seems like 100-200 yards at best (not including ARMA 2). When, in the real world, most US snipers are using what effectivly is a beefed up .308 hunting rifle. It's effective range is listed as 800 yards. So if folks want that kind of logic, then in game shotguns should suck beyond about 20 yards. In game.

Still, no matter how you slice it. A game that has shotguns doing better or equal damage at long range (in game) as compared to rifles is just silly.

[smithf]

I haven't tested in detail but is it at least balanced by having a larger spread?

The old Hek didn't behave like a shotgun, not only because of "long range sniping" but that there seems to be very little spread.

With a Strum, I could aim beside a close range target but still hit it. Or could aim at a bunch of targets and spread damage all over them. With the Hek, I would miss in the first case and prob just hit one target in the second.

 

If the so called "fall-off" at long range is done by increasing the spread, I think it will still be balanced. It may perform less effectively at a single target at longer ranges, but if MAY still perform efficiently at a large group of targets at long range. At the same time, at closer range, it will be "balanced" by being more forgiving with aiming.

 

But then, I noticed that the Strum is already all these...

Maybe time to dig out the old Strum if we have not sold it?

 

Edit: agree that Hek was (and possibly IS) not very shotgun-like. It was more like a hand cannon before. I don't know about now though..

Edited April 27, 2013 by smithf

[ChaosBloodterfly]

I totally agree. But I was quoting a dude that was referring to real world stats.

And to further nail your point home, if you were to do some video game math, most "sniper rifles" let you reach out to what seems like 100-200 yards at best (not including ARMA 2). When, in the real world, most US snipers are using what effectivly is a beefed up .308 hunting rifle. It's effective range is listed as 800 yards. So if folks want that kind of logic, then in game shotguns should suck beyond about 20 yards. In game.

Still, no matter how you slice it. A game that has shotguns doing better or equal damage at long range (in game) as compared to rifles is just silly.

 

 

I've never played a game where I've had range issues with "sniper rifles".

 

The effective range of combat shotguns according to wikipedia is about 40m. And it's more due to sights and spread than pellet velocity I think. Slug rounds reach 100m.

 

I should be able to thin out a giant hoard of Infested (no aiming/sniping needed, they take up the entire hallway) by emptying some shotgun clips in them.

 

Still, anybody remember the no-drop-100%accurate BF2 slug rounds?

 

 

PS. Random side note- can we get some individual shell reloading shotguns (or other guns)? Would be cool.

[Suzaku4489]

I haven't tested in detail but is it at least balanced by having a larger spread?

The old Hek didn't behave like a shotgun, not only because of "long range sniping" but that there seems to be very little spread.

With a Strum, I could aim beside a close range target but still hit it. Or could aim at a bunch of targets and spread damage all over them. With the Hek, I would miss in the first case and prob just hit one target in the second.

 

If the so called "fall-off" at long range is done by increasing the spread, I think it will still be balanced. It may perform less effectively at a single target at longer ranges, but if MAY still perform efficiently at a large group of targets at long range. At the same time, at closer range, it will be "balanced" by being more forgiving with aiming.

 

But then, I noticed that the Strum is already all these...

Maybe time to dig out the old Strum if we have not sold it?

 

Edit: agree that Hek was (and possibly IS) not very shotgun-like. It was more like a hand cannon before. I don't know about now though..

 

This is what I and a few others were saying, to reduce accuracy (or increase pellet spread), instead of having the gun simply do less and less damage as it travels.  

Also, Hek is what people complain about most because of its range (it's hurt the most), but the other shotguns were hit with the same problem.  Getting your old Strum out isn't going to help; it's been hurt too.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Suzaku4489

[.Monarch]

You make me want to flame you when you say idiotic things like this.

 

I know where you're coming from. But it's not exactly idiotic though.

 

Shotgun through out gaming, and real life history, it's intended for close range combat. Further than a certain distance, the pellet will fall and loses its impact. Aka, lower damage or no damage at all after a distance.

 

Wouldn't be fair if shotgun have such high damage yet the range can rival a regular rifle, yes?

 

I've never used shotgun before untill this patch came out, and I have to say. I don't mind it that much, Shotgun pack a Lex, problem solved really.

[smithf]

This is what I and a few others were saying, to reduce accuracy (or increase pellet spread), instead of having the gun simply do less and less damage as it travels.  

Also, Hek is what people complain about most because of its range (it's hurt the most), but the other shotguns were hit with the same problem.  Getting your old Strum out isn't going to help; it's been hurt too.

 

oh damn...

Time to put all shotguns into the closet... until possible day that the mechanics is changed so that they become viable again...

[Ranteamo]

Check out Discovery's Future Weapons: AA-12 Shotgun... I want that ><

[OriKlein]

Shotguns before patch... Range: close/insane damage-------mid/very high damage------long/very high damage

 

Shotguns after todays patch... Range: close/insane damage-------mid/good damage------long/"use another gun"-low damage

 

I don't see what's wrong with this...maybe it must be the people -.-

 

Let me fix that for you...

 

HEK Pre-Patch: Range=close/mid/long --- very high damage (if you modded it with high-end mods) upto high levels.

Strun/BOAR Pre-Patch: Range=close -- average damage vs low levels / Range=mid -- lame damage / Range=long -- what damage?

 

HEK Post-Patch: Range=point blank -- hey it can still kill level 20 runners! / Range=mid -- ROFL IT TICKLES THEM! / Range=long -- "Lancer #1> Did you hear something? Lancer #2> No, not a thing...just this annoying sand-grain wind chafing my armour.

Strun/BOAR Post-Patch: Range=point blank -- that's a shotgun? / Range=mid/long -- LOLERSKATERS! *TROLLFACE*

 

HEK was the only effective shotgun. The other two were pure junk. Instead of buffing them up, they all got nerfed. And HEK was rendered as useless as the other two. It's one thing to put a distance cap (accuracy/spread or just projectile life span), it's another to take the weapon's damage away altogether.

The entire weapon array of the shotgun line is now essentially obsolete.

Might as well take their mods and use them as fusing fuels, selling them off and clearing the inventory slots for other weapons.

 

 

This "argument" essentially divides onto two: People who actually used HEK and care, and people who did not and don't. But, instead of looking at their favorite weapons and demanding a buff, they looked at HEK with mad envy and wailed on it until it was nerfed to dust. GG.

[RainDreamer]

A change was needed. I was able to compete with paris sniping in the large corpus outpost defense map with a decked out hek. That is not what a shotgun is supposed to do at that range.

 

But I agree that perhaps this is too much, making it effective only at 5-10m is just overkill.maybe effective range to 20-30m would be nice.

Edited April 27, 2013 by RainDreamer

[kill-it-kid]

PS. Random side note- can we get some individual shell reloading shotguns (or other guns)? Would be cool.

I might commit murder for this. It just seems so characteristic of any type of shotgun - space shotty or real ones.

[Zyfe3rX]

Now guys, which is the best weapon to use ?  D: ?

[RainDreamer]

I might commit murder for this. It just seems so characteristic of any type of shotgun - space shotty or real ones.

Its because the one we have are Semi-Auto, not pump-action. Been hoping for a true pump-action shotgun that let us do this.

[Blatantfool]

We need a mod that increases the range before damage falloff. 

 

 Bam. I fixed it.

[kill-it-kid]

Its because the one we have are Semi-Auto, not pump-action. Been hoping for a true pump-action shotgun that let us do this.

Eh, Benelli M90 comes to mind as a tube fed semi-auto, but yeah, this game needs a pump action badly. I want a space-ninja with a sawn-off boomstick.

[OriKlein]

Now guys, which is the best weapon to use ?  D: ?

 

Fragor. But don't worry, they'll get around to it, too.

[Effusion-]

The Hek has a pistol grip for each hand.  The Strun has a pistol grip for the trigger hand.  The Boar doesn't have a pistol grip at all.  Their ranges are backwards for how their grips are arranged, so let's ditch the idea that reality is relevant and focus on mechanics.

Lets also skip comparing the shotgun to the long ranged weapons like the Snipertron.  There are very few places where something like the Snipertron will shine over a pistol/assault rifle simply due to map design.  Instead, think in terms of where you would use a gun instead of melee, where you would use your more accurate/longer ranged secondary instead of your shotgun, and where you would use rmb aim.

 

Now, lets look at some actual images of damage falloff.  I think it's pretty clear that falloff is kicking in far too much too soon, especially considering that damage is naturally falling off due to spread as well.

 

 

18-19 damage below falloff range.

Target is in the doorway on the right.

 

 

 

 

5-7 damage-> about 70% reduction in damage.

Target is next to the crate near the console.

Target is between the two enemy spawn boxes.

Target is behind the doorframe.

 

 

 

3 damage-> about 85% reduction in damage.

Target is next to the crate.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Effusion-

[Suzaku4489]

You used to be able to kill a guy in 1-2 shots at the range of that last one...  now it'd take the whole clip just to bring him to half health.

[Blatantfool]

You used to be able to kill a guy in 1-2 shots at the range of that last one...  now it'd take the whole clip just to bring him to half health.

 

 If you are lucky.

 

 

 Sad thing is, that is still pretty close in. A shotgun should still hurt pretty bad from that distance if the shot hits. It is anything further then that that would be a bit much.

[BETAOPTICS]

Personally I won't judge the nerf as of yet. I have to admit it that I have only tried Boar and very little of it, as a days experience does not define is the nerf too much. Based on my Boar experience it seems fine to me, then again like I said other shotguns might have had worse than Boar and that day isn't enough for true judgement of the nerf. Also to top of it I never tried Hek or Strun all that much prior the nerf so I don't have that much experience of their former power, time will tell I'd say.

[grillv20]

I didn't notice much of a change in damage from my Hek but then again im not a retard that tries to snipe with a shotgun.

[Xtorma]

I didn't notice much of a change in damage from my Hek but then again im not a retard that tries to snipe with a shotgun.

I don't know what you would consider sniper range, but it definatly isn't what is illustrated in the screenshots above.  I would also have to add that if it were possible to snipe with a shotgun, you would be a retard not to.