Hek Reactions - A Roundup

[Morcant]

Lots of feels on this topic. A little pushback on Gorgon as well, but not nearly to this degree. After testing out the weapon myself at various ranges last night, and sleeping on the fiery debate of yesterday, I thought I'd offer my feedback on each point I've read so far regarding the changes to shotguns, and Hek in particular. Quotes not meant to single anyone out, but simply for easy reference of a cross-section of ideas being presented.

 

Yeah...realistic shotguns actually have a much longer range than game shotguns do

 

Real weapons don't exist in a vacuum where they must coexist with other weapons, all of which must be viable choices. The range of a real shotgun firing slugs has absolutely zero bearing on the need for weapon balance to exist in a game so that that game continues to offer interesting alternatives for different players and play styles.

 

Some damage reduction for the Hek was necessary. To turn it into a melee weapon with ammunition, however, was not the answer.

 

This is pure hyperbole. I used the Hek very effectively post-patch on Sedna and Eris alerts against level 30-50 mobs, with only rank 2-3 damage, multishot, fire rate, and reload speed mods. Melee range does not include the ground you cover by running up to a mob to melee. I didn't see substantial damage drops until ~6 meters. See a doctor if your arms are that long.

 

If this was an attempt to balance the game around more and make other primaries more useful, they should have looked at the other primaries and buffed THOSE to be more useful instead of mass nerfing the few decent primaries left in this game.

 

And where does that train stop, exactly? When weapons clearly outclass powers, as they already do in many cases? The devs are very wary of power creep - it was a huge problem through Update 6 that trivialized all of the most challenging content in the game. Buffing everything else to match the outlier performance kings is the wrong decision, in my opinion, and I'm glad to see the devs agree.

 

The level design. Every single level save a VERY SELECT FEW, are close quarters brawls. Shotguns would OBVIOUSLY shine in these situations, even at medium ranges. Just revert this ridiculous change to shotguns all together and get the level design team working on something that rifles and other longer ranged weapons benefit from

 

Rebuilding or vastly expanding the game environments to suit a disproportionately powerful subset of weapons is neither cost-effective nor responsible. In the long term, having one or two weapons clearly superior to alternatives regardless of range or play style is a detriment to the game's appeal.

In closing, I'll add that in my opinion, initial damage falloff range should extend 3-5 meters. Nothing else seemed out of place with the Hek. I'm glad to see DE finally taking steps to remedy a couple of weapons which have been known to be extraordinarily useful (to put it mildly) for a long time. The backlash might have been avoided to a large degree if this had rolled out with Update 7, however. =)

[NalkorRN]

So this is little more than a long-winded 'lol Hek got nerfed, deal with it n00bz' post. Thanks for making me waste several minutes of my time.

[Talrivian]

Well written, I agree with the Original Poster. =)

[Talrivian]

So this is little more than a long-winded 'lol Hek got nerfed, deal with it n00bz' post. Thanks for making me waste several minutes of my time.

 

There is nothing constructive about that comment. You should analyze what the person says and judge its validity based on its merits. Your comment merely ignores everything he has to say, and labels him, pushing him into a corner with "other 'deal-with-it-n00bz'".

[wqnmlb]

From marketing perpective, they should let the customer want to buy other product, rather than let customers regret that what they purchased become useless, otherwise it would be bad for business. In other words, if they want to bring some "balance" in this game, they should do something to buff the less-used weapon, not nerffing current-existing weapon.

Edited April 27, 2013 by wqnmlb

[GTG3000]

From marketing perpective, they should let the customer want to buy other product, rather than let customers regret that what they purchased become useless, otherwise it would be bad for business. In other words, if they want to bring some "balance" in this game, they should do something to buff the less-used weapon, not nerffing current-existing weapon.

 

Look from a fresh PoV? Impossibru!

 

Though I agree completely. Maybe adding new weapons will help with that, though?

[modded]

I came here expecting an unbiased summary. Not at all, I see.

 

Sure it still kills, if you like getting into melee range.

 

Don't even mention what this did to the strun. Utter POS at medium range.

 

This wasn't a case of power creep. The Hek has long been the best gun (other than maybe boltor and gorgon), despite multiple nerfs. The issue was always that the Hek OHK'd targets at ranges it shouldn't have. Now, it's a 2-3 hit kill at medium range FFS. It was an over nerf, screwing over all shotguns, even though only 1 shotgun was "OP".

[Dredj]

From marketing perpective, they should let the customer want to buy other product, rather than let customers regret that what they purchased become useless, otherwise it would be bad for business. In other words, if they want to bring some "balance" in this game, they should do something to buff the less-used weapon, not nerffing current-existing weapon.

Buff every other weapon in the game so they can also 1shot at a seemingly unlimited range. Seems legit.

[Sealgaire]

Buff every other weapon in the game so they can also 1shot at a seemingly unlimited range. Seems legit.

Pretty much. I think people are just sad they don't have a gun that's great in every situation anymore.

[GTG3000]

Pretty much. I think people are just sad they don't have a gun that's great in every situation anymore.

 

I wouldn't say it was great in every situation. It was only useful for sniping because it was more powerful than snipetron (which a lot of people already complained about) at that, not to mention the spread giving some help in aiming. And, above all, it's just very satisfying to come to a low-level place and kill heavies in one or two shots, because you've wasted all that time, modding and levelling your gun and frame. 

 

It was somewhat OP compared to other, xplocked with less levels, weapons, but isn't that the whole purpose of xplock? I agree that it was too much for regular 20-30 level enemies, but it was quite the thing to have at higher levels. Alas.

[wqnmlb]

Pretty much. I think people are just sad they don't have a gun that's great in every situation anymore.

Quite true, but shotguns are now totally ruined. With the limited clip size and reload time. I wondering if anyone would use them anymore.....

 

Besides, that wpn requires lvl 4, it should be something different.

[Davoodoo]

Only thing i feel bad about is that this guy gonna be downvoted.

 

I wont feel bad about 3 lost days and 1 potato you "wasted" on hek.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Davoodoo

[Cleesus]

So what your came up with after a night of thinking about it is that we should just get over it?

 

I bet you will have an different opinion when your favorite weapon becomes usless.

 

Also most of the guns besides prenerf gorgon and Hek sucked after like wave 15 on higher level defense missions. Now the Hek sucks as well.

[Waswat]

You know, you could've put this useless post in the other 9 pages long topic since you're not adding anything to the conversation.

But sure, lets look at your points:

 

 

"Real weapons don't exist in a vacuum where they must coexist with other weapons, all of which must be viable choices. The range of a real shotgun firing slugs has absolutely zero bearing on the need for weapon balance to exist in a game so that that game continues to offer interesting alternatives for different players and play styles."

 

 

It does have bearing on the fact that it is obviously called a shotgun and certain people expect certain things from one. The game, however ridiculous it is, still is something that has a basis from weapons in real life. So comparing a shotgun to... an ingame shotgun isn't  something you can diss off like that saying it has "absolutely zero bearing". What a weak argument.

 

"This is pure hyperbole. I used the Hek very effectively post-patch on Sedna and Eris alerts against level 30-50 mobs, with only rank 2-3 damage, multishot, fire rate, and reload speed mods. Melee range does not include the ground you cover by running up to a mob to melee. I didn't see substantial damage drops until ~6 meters. See a doctor if your arms are that long."

 

6 meters eh? Considering a warframe can run an insanely high speed and swords are pretty long, you can also just start charging your melee weapon in those 6 meters and hit your opponent. See a doctor for not thinking of this.

 

"And where does that train stop, exactly? When weapons clearly outclass powers, as they already do in many cases? The devs are very wary of power creep - it was a huge problem through Update 6 that trivialized all of the most challenging content in the game. Buffing everything else to match the outlier performance kings is the wrong decision, in my opinion, and I'm glad to see the devs agree."

This argument was already trivialized by the great perspective of wqnmlb.

 

"Rebuilding or vastly expanding the game environments to suit a disproportionately powerful subset of weapons is neither cost-effective nor responsible. In the long term, having one or two weapons clearly superior to alternatives regardless of range or play style is a detriment to the game's appeal."

 

If you haven't noticed, they already started adding big tiles to the mix, and it is barely 'rebuilding'.

 

Sure the Hek was very powerful indeed, but in my opinion the nerf was way on the harsh side. Especially now that the strun is basically even worse.

 

However, if you feel like being a bit of a #$&(% and trample on other peoples opinions and feelings by patronizing them like this and not seeing their opinions from a more realistic perspective, you deserve every bit of flaming you get...

[Davoodoo]

So what your came up with after a night of thinking about it is that we should just get over it?

 

I bet you will have an different opinion when your favorite weapon becomes usless.

 

Also most of the guns besides prenerf gorgon and Hek sucked after like wave 15 on higher level defense missions. Now the Hek sucks as well.

 

My favorite weapon already became useless. Ofc you can disagree that 42% melee mod is bad but whatever. I still do pretty good even without 700 dmg per swing cronus from u6.

[MJ12]

Pretty much. I think people are just sad they don't have a gun that's great in every situation anymore.

 

People bought the Hek (with the description of a 'shotgun with the ability to engage at longer distances') because they wanted a gun that was usable at longer ranges.

 

I mean if it's just supposed to be a really big, powerful short-range shotgun, put its damage back to 180, reduce its firerate, give it Boar-like spread, and let people enjoy sending Grineer flying across the room.

 

If it's still supposed to be a shotgun that's effective at medium range, cut its damage down to 120 (8x15) or 119 (7x17). Bam. Done. Hek nerfed. Hek still good at medium ranges or greater. Snipetron still underpowered but it was underpowered before the Hek existed so you know.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MJ12

[Cleesus]

My favorite weapon already became useless. Ofc you can disagree that 42% melee mod is bad but whatever. I still do pretty good even without 700 dmg per swing cronus from u6.

Thing is there is alot of other viable melee weapons that can replace the Chronus. But what exactly is going to replace the Hek now?

[Davoodoo]

Thing is there is alot of other viable melee weapons that can replace the Chronus. But what exactly is going to replace the Hek now?

 

Scindo and fragor with charge dmg?? No sorry. For shotguns you can still use them close range with enough efficiency and theres still bronco.

 

I might have another idea for long range shotgun +600% multishot mod. It would make any weapon a shotgun. But to think of it hek already had it with +1300% multishot and only 90% dmg instead of 165%

[Rafarix]

I'll say this first. I don't like the shotgun nerf. I am one of many players who uses a Hek too.

 

My biggest issue with the nerf is that it seemed somewhat like the nuclear option in dealing with the Hek's sniping ability. Was the Hek OP? Yes. Since it was essentially a shotgun sniper. However they also took down the Strun which was never OP before, and the Boar (Ok the Boar was a close range shotgun anyways so the nerf may not effect it as much). Perhaps they could have given the Hek a bit of a spread when it reached a certain distance instead of damage dropping all shotgun damage to nearly nothing at mid-range. That way it would be a bit harder to snipe with the Hek, but not effect any of the other shotgun type weapons that was never used for sniping in the first place.

 

The only "shotgun" that I find worth using is the Bronco even though it is pretty inaccurate the damage doesn't significantly drop at mid range. So yes the Hek needed to be dumbed down a bit but don't take the other shotguns (and any possible future shotguns) down with it. 

[MoonicusMaximus]

From marketing perpective, they should let the customer want to buy other product, rather than let customers regret that what they purchased become useless, otherwise it would be bad for business. In other words, if they want to bring some "balance" in this game, they should do something to buff the less-used weapon, not nerffing current-existing weapon.

 

The only problem with this line of thought is that, in order for weapons to even come close to reaching the blatant broken status the Hek achieved, the entire game would have to be reworked in order to facilitate the massive power increase that weapons would have to receive to be on Pre-nerf Hek-par.

 

The Hek had a OHK range of long-distance rifles. That's one shotgun shell spent per enemy, with ammunition pickups restoring 10. If you used a Hek, you quite literally would never run out of ammunition unless you were deliberately trying to; it had absurd ammo economy. That's one shotgun shell spent per enemy to instantly kill that enemy, whereas several rifle rounds (upwards from 7 to close to 20, depending on the weapon) and a second or so of sustained fire was required to kill. At ridiculous distances that trumped guns specializing in long distances.

 

Buffing all of the weapons would need damage increases, range increases, magazine increase, ammunition pool increases, etc. across the board. Enemies would need to become even MORE bulletsponge-esque to facilitate the increase in killing power afforded by Hek-leveled weapons. Entire lines of mods would have to be reworked to try and facilitate what little balance there was behind guns that were NOT the Hek.

 

When you stack up the effort, time and resources it would take to make EVERY weapon as broken as the Hek, or to just simply FIXING the Hek so that it's not ridiculously broken, the answer is the latter.

 

The damage falloff on all shotguns was too harsh. DE has acknowledged that and it will no-doubt change. But the Hek won't be the single best weapon in the game by far anymore. And in my opinion, that's a good thing.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[MJ12]

The only problem with this line of thought is that, in order for weapons to even come close to reaching the blatant broken status the Hek achieved, the entire game would have to be reworked in order to facilitate the massive power increase that weapons would have to receive to be on Pre-nerf Hek-par.

 

The Hek had a OHK range of long-distance rifles. That's one shotgun shell spent per enemy, with ammunition pickups restoring 10. If you used a Hek, you quite literally would never run out of ammunition unless you were deliberately trying to; it had absurd ammo economy. That's one shotgun shell spent per enemy to instantly kill that enemy, whereas several rifle rounds (upwards from 7 to close to 20, depending on the weapon) and a second or so of sustained fire was required to kill. At ridiculous distances that trumped guns specializing in long distances.

 

Buffing all of the weapons would need damage increases, range increases, magazine increase, ammunition pool increases, etc. across the board. Enemies would need to become even MORE bulletsponge-esque to facilitate the increase in killing power afforded by Hek-leveled weapons. Entire lines of mods would have to be reworked to try and facilitate what little balance there was behind guns that were NOT the Hek.

 

When you stack up the effort, time and resources it would take to make EVERY weapon as broken as the Hek, or to just simply FIXING the Hek so that it's not ridiculously broken, the answer is the latter.

 

The damage falloff on all shotguns was too harsh. DE has acknowledged that and it will no-doubt change. But the Hek won't be the single best weapon in the game by far anymore. And in my opinion, that's a good thing.

 

So instead of altering things so the Hek was specialized for its role, they decided to remove its capability to perform its intended role altogether?

 

No, I don't think this is about the Hek being the best weapon (also your comparison with 'dedicated long-ranged weapons is comparing it with the Latron, which sucks absolute balls, and the Snipetron, which also sucks). It's about people being angry that shotguns are usable at ranges of more than ten feet. Which is easily apparent because if all they wanted to do was make the Hek weaker, they could have just dropped the damage by 10-20 points or more and/or reduced the weapon's fire rate, instead of what we got, which is a complete removal of the Hek's ability to perform as advertised.

[Dasmir]

Solution: remove the mid range penality, why ? Becouse is $&*&*#(%& to get a 50% damage penality for shooting something outside of the MELEE range.

[Xtorma]

There is nothing constructive about that comment. You should analyze what the person says and judge its validity based on its merits. Your comment merely ignores everything he has to say, and labels him, pushing him into a corner with "other 'deal-with-it-n00bz'".

It's a pretty poor Analysis. It doesn't "roundup" anything, it cherry picks a few posts and gives opinions.

[MoonicusMaximus]

So instead of altering things so the Hek was specialized for its role, they decided to remove its capability to perform its intended role altogether?

 

No, I don't think this is about the Hek being the best weapon (also your comparison with 'dedicated long-ranged weapons is comparing it with the Latron, which sucks absolute balls, and the Snipetron, which also sucks). It's about people being angry that shotguns are usable at ranges of more than ten feet. Which is easily apparent because if all they wanted to do was make the Hek weaker, they could have just dropped the damage by 10-20 points or more and/or reduced the weapon's fire rate, instead of what we got, which is a complete removal of the Hek's ability to perform as advertised.

 

The problem was that the Hek WAS specialized for its role, far, far too well. It had shotgun damage, at sniper rifle distances. Shotgun blasts were and currently are still the single best burst damage in Warframe. They are well and capable of instantly gibbing things within their optimal range, and the balancing factor is that optimal range is meant to be short-distance. This is to directly counter the fact that when enemies enter said optimal range, they would be instantly killed.

 

The Hek's optimal range made it a weapon with the optimal range of a long-range rifle, coupled with the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast. Reducing the damage by a mere 20 points would not solve the problem of it essentially being a supremely ammo-efficient long-range rifle. Although it was advertised to be this exact thing, I do not think DE had the foresight to see or intended for it to reach such enormous levels of ridiculousness, which made the Hek easily the best weapon in the game in any circumstance.

 

I've already stated my position on the damage fall-off, so no need to bring that up.

 

The Hek now performs its role as a shotgun well enough; it acts as a more precise blast to the Strun and Boar's immense spread, but still maintains the strengths and weaknesses of the shotgun class, instead of having the strengths of ALL weapon classes. Now that the Hek is closer to being in-line with the rest of the weapon roster, perhaps DE can look into making the Latron and the Snipetron, which in your words, "suck absolute balls" into better weapons without having to look towards the broken Hek as some sort of self-proposed standard for what a Warframe weapon should be able to do.

[MJ12]

The problem was that the Hek WAS specialized for its role, far, far too well. It had shotgun damage, at sniper rifle distances. Shotgun blasts were and currently are still the single best burst damage in Warframe. They are well and capable of instantly gibbing things within their optimal range, and the balancing factor is that optimal range is meant to be short-distance. This is to directly counter the fact that when enemies enter said optimal range, they would be instantly killed.

 

The Hek's optimal range made it a weapon with the optimal range of a long-range rifle, coupled with the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast. Reducing the damage by a mere 20 points would not solve the problem of it essentially being a supremely ammo-efficient long-range rifle. Although it was advertised to be this exact thing, I do not think DE had the foresight to see or intended for it to reach such enormous levels of ridiculousness, which made the Hek easily the best weapon in the game in any circumstance.

 

I've already stated my position on the damage fall-off, so no need to bring that up.

 

The Hek now performs its role as a shotgun well enough; it acts as a more precise blast to the Strun and Boar's immense spread, but still maintains the strengths and weaknesses of the shotgun class, instead of having the strengths of ALL weapon classes. Now that the Hek is closer to being in-line with the rest of the weapon roster, perhaps DE can look into making the Latron and the Snipetron, which in your words, "suck absolute balls" into better weapons without having to look towards the broken Hek as some sort of self-proposed standard for what a Warframe weapon should be able to do.

 

Burst damage in Warframe is largely irrelevant, you know. The Hek's DPS was ~320 assuming all pellets hit, which is high but not that much higher than you'd expect, since the Braton Vandal has a DPS of 250, the Gorgon had a DPS of 400, and unlike either the Hek could not sustain that DPS for more than about a second.

 

You're acting like enemies have flat-damage-reduction armor or something, which is kind of weird because if they did it'd penalize the Hek just as much as it'd penalize the auto-rifles. The Hek was the best weapon in the game, but stop making up reasons why it was good out of whole cloth. It was good because:

 

1. It had the highest damage per shot of any weapon and a firerate of 2.2

2. It had reasonable accuracy

 

Reducing the damage by a "mere" 20 points would drop its DPS to 264, which is in-line with the Braton Vandal (240) or Braton (255). Given that both the Vandal and regular Braton have a higher crit chance and tighter spread than the Hek, the only advantage it'd have at that point would be ammunition efficiency. And honestly, if you're that angry that a high-ranked weapon may be slightly better than a starter weapon in a PvE game, I really don't know what to say. Your post is just evidence for my assertion. "People aren't angry because the Hek is OP, people are angry because they don't like the idea of long-range shotguns, so they become OP by default".