Lotus In Bloom [Ooc]

[SnaleKing]

I find the idea of atomic level precision with any warframe power absurd. It's the kind of silly power trick one sees written into 80's marvel comics. Example: The human torch uses his powers of heat to create a mirage, which takes the appearance of a stick of dynamite from a nearby construction site, and puts it in the middle of some goons, freaking them out.

Bad science aside, even, I hate power tricks because they can let anyone do nearly anything if their writer can find niche enough phenomena to exploit. It removes a lot of meaning and diversity from abilities, too: everyone ends up being able to do loosely the same things, they just have different justifications for it.

[Renegade343]

I find the idea of atomic level precision with any warframe power absurd. It's the kind of silly power trick one sees written into 80's marvel comics. Example: The human torch uses his powers of heat to create a mirage, which takes the appearance of a stick of dynamite from a nearby construction site, and puts it in the middle of some goons, freaking them out.

Given how Nekros's Desecrate can generate extra personal life support from dead enemies, atomic level precision and manipulation (I theorise that Nekros create these new personal life support from breaking down dead enemies, then manipulating their atoms to provide breathable gas [i.e.: Actually breaking bonds from the molecules that built the corpse to do that] stored inside a skintight skin container [from making bonds with molecules, or using parts of the corpse]) is not really that much out of the question. 

 

Bad science aside, even, I hate power tricks because they can let anyone do nearly anything if their writer can find niche enough phenomena to exploit. It removes a lot of meaning and diversity from abilities, too: everyone ends up being able to do loosely the same things, they just have different justifications for it.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. I do like one or two power tricks (because they do make a few spices here and there), but that is really about it. 

[S.T.M.P.D]

Wait, "I like to build things up slow?" That is completely not the vibe I'm getting. Alfrond is completely un-fackin-fazed, which is improbable and ridiculous. Perhaps he'd be a little annoyed, a little upset, a little gripey, because that's how humans work. Maybe say something like "that'll show him", hell maybe even admit that Alfrond kinda has to respect the fact that Temperance doesn't want to be here, and/or the power he leverages over his Tenno.

 

There's supposed to be a challenge here, a getting "shown up" as it were. Instead, he solves the problem and presumably goes off to install Arc traps in his room, which, I might add, constitutes tampering with the ship's systems - that's a crime enough to make Temperance go all Golem on you.

 

Perhaps the power trick thing is, well gimpy - but I used at least two or three in 1347 to get my character out of a tight jam. I'm saying you need to respect the fact that Temperance has sent Alfrond to clean the latrines, react to that at some point. Doesn't have to be now. Just at some point Alfrond needs to act like a human being and not Sherlock from season three.

[SnaleKing]

Given how Nekros's Desecrate can generate extra personal life support from dead enemies, atomic level precision and manipulation (I theorise that Nekros create these new personal life support from breaking down dead enemies, then manipulating their atoms to provide breathable gas [i.e.: Actually breaking bonds from the molecules that built the corpse to do that] stored inside a skintight skin container [from making bonds with molecules, or using parts of the corpse]) is not really that much out of the question. 

 

I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. I do like one or two power tricks (because they do make a few spices here and there), but that is really about it. 

 

Oh, there's a thought. Here's a power trick from Nekros' desecrate: since he's using any matter (not necessarily organic, because MOA's) to create anything he finds useful at the moment (ammo, health, energy, mods, life support) he apparently has the ability to transmute anything into anything. Maybe inefficiently, sure, but suddenly, Nekros no longer needs a foundry. He can just walk up to a boulder and turn it into a handgun. Or take a chunk of a ship's hull, and turn it into a turkey.

 

Let's do another one. Ember superheats air. Air expands when heated. Heat it fast enough, it expands fast enough to be propulsive. She heats air up behind her, and rocket jumps. Who even needs Zephyr anymore?

 

Do you see why this sort of thing is an issue? It's not clever use of powers, it's exploiting the ambiguous nature of how warframe powers are written to bullsh*t up completely new powers, which often overshadow and make obsolete other Tenno's powers. And, less formally, it's ridiculous. Nekros is a Fullmetal alchemist. Ember flies. Frost has super-cleaning powers.

[Renegade343]

Wait, "I like to build things up slow?" That is completely not the vibe I'm getting. Alfrond is completely un-fackin-fazed, which is improbable and ridiculous. Perhaps he'd be a little annoyed, a little upset, a little gripey, because that's how humans work. Maybe say something like "that'll show him", hell maybe even admit that Alfrond kinda has to respect the fact that Temperance doesn't want to be here, and/or the power he leverages over his Tenno.

Provided that: 

 

1. The ship just started its launch (and has not left the Relay yet). 

2. Everybody is just getting to find (and maybe just starting) to get a post around. 

 

I think that is still at the start, or beginning, of the story. So yes, I would build it slow from there, and once the ship left the Relay, pick up the pace. 

 

Oh, there's a thought. Here's a power trick from Nekros' desecrate: since he's using any matter (not necessarily organic, because MOA's) to create anything he finds useful at the moment (ammo, health, energy, mods, life support) he apparently has the ability to transmute anything into anything. Maybe inefficiently, sure, but suddenly, Nekros no longer needs a foundry. He can just walk up to a boulder and turn it into a handgun. Or take a chunk of a ship's hull, and turn it into a turkey.

 

Let's do another one. Ember superheats air. Air expands when heated. Heat it fast enough, it expands fast enough to be propulsive. She heats air up behind her, and rocket jumps. Who even needs Zephyr anymore?

 

Do you see why this sort of thing is an issue? It's not clever use of powers, it's exploiting the ambiguous nature of how warframe powers are written to bullsh*t up completely new powers, which often overshadow and make obsolete other Tenno's powers. And, less formally, it's ridiculous. Nekros is a Fullmetal alchemist. Ember flies. Frost has super-cleaning powers.

Really, I think you are going into extremes there, and my point probably went over your head. 

 

Given stuff from the game itself (and with Frost being able to flash freeze someone on direct hit while dealing damage to every enemy around the impact point of the bolt), which takes more energy to do that), Alfrond doing that is not really that out of context. 

[SnaleKing]

Really, I think you are going into extremes there, and my point probably went over your head. 

 

Given stuff from the game itself (and with Frost being able to flash freeze someone on direct hit while dealing damage to every enemy around the impact point of the bolt), which takes more energy to do that), Alfrond doing that is not really that out of context. 

 

 

The issue is that extremes are precisely what you've brought up; the ability to freeze off individual atoms. The question isn't how much energy the warframes and Tenno can summon and control; they can clearly do some destructive, powerful things. The question is how finely they control it, which, from what we've seen, is at a bare, logical minimum, above the atomic level. (excepting, of course, poorly explained abilities like Desecrate, and possibly Nova, which should be left unmeddled to avoid abuse)

 

What I'm saying in addition to that, is, science aside, power tricks are terrible for good narratives. If this is allowed, then all the crap I previously mentioned should be too, which just ends up with just a bunch of nerds throwing increasingly obscure physics at each other trying to overpower and swiss-army-knife their character's abilities.

Edited January 7, 2015 by SnaleKing

[Renegade343]

What I'm saying in addition to that, is, science aside, power tricks are terrible for good narratives. If this is allowed, then all the crap I previously mentioned should be too, which just ends up with just a bunch of nerds throwing increasingly obscure physics at each other trying to overpower and swiss-army-knife their character's abilities.

You do realise that I know limits of things, and that having small power tricks would actually bring a bit of flavour to things. 

 

And it is not freezing off individual atoms. It is surrounding the atoms with ice (since there would be small molecules of water within the scorch marks that can be frozen, given the time between the scorch mark being created and Alfrond having to clean that up [which would allow small bits of water vapour to float into the cracks). Surely water vapour would be logical enough to freeze without having to resort to your "freeze off individual atoms". 

 

I think it might be the "spread" word that is causing problems. 

[SnaleKing]

You do realise that I know limits of things, and that having small power tricks would actually bring a bit of flavour to things.

And it is not freezing off individual atoms. It is surrounding the atoms with ice (since there would be small molecules of water within the scorch marks that can be frozen, given the time between the scorch mark being created and Alfrond having to clean that up [which would allow small bits of water vapour to float into the cracks). Surely water vapour would be logical enough to freeze without having to resort to your "freeze off individual atoms".

I think it might be the "spread" word that is causing problems.

We could debate all day on how possible it is to freeze off a scorch mark. Above that, is the question if Frost could, which is no. From the powers he's demonstrated, he can freeze a person solid, impale people with ice spikes, block bullets with ice, and freeze a lot of people solid at once. None of those demonstrate the finesse required for anything you've proposed: Tenno are weapons of war, and their powers are designed appropriately.

Frankly, no, I haven't seen anything in your writing showing restraint. So yes, I'm concerned what else you'll pull if this goes uncontested. You clearly aren't doing this for 'flavor,' only to have your character circumvent an inconvenient situation.

Edited January 7, 2015 by SnaleKing

[WingedCrusade]

Are we going to have an argument every other god damned post?

Everyone stop this now.

We already had to break up our last one because it was going too far. Drop it and we'll handle this further if anything keeps up.

Now /end it./

[Renegade343]

We could debate all day on how possible it is to freeze off a scorch mark. Above that, is the question if Frost could, which is no. From the powers he's demonstrated, he can freeze a person solid, impale people with ice spikes, block bullets with ice, and freeze a lot of people solid at once. None of those demonstrate the finesse required for anything you've proposed: Tenno are weapons of war, and their powers are designed appropriately.

Then again, you are just letting the ice finish off the rest of the job when you shoot it off towards the scorch mark (because as I explained before, minute cracks on the scorch marks allow for water vapour to get in, then freeze when something very cold comes near it). I think that does not need much finesse other than creating the ice bolt, then aiming it to shoot at it. 

 

Frankly, no, I haven't seen anything in your writing showing restraint. So yes, I'm concerned what else you'll pull if this goes uncontested. You clearly aren't doing this for 'flavor,' only to have your character circumvent an inconvenient situation.

Right, because not pulling out his Grakata after having his Spectra disassembled is not showing restraint. Or maybe going off to attack the Ash after the stern talk. 

 

If you did not get it, that was sarcasm. And I know the limits, thank you very much, without you constantly reminding/nagging about it. 

[WingedCrusade]

Then again, you are just letting the ice finish off the rest of the job when you shoot it off towards the scorch mark (because as I explained before, minute cracks on the scorch marks allow for water vapour to get in, then freeze when something very cold comes near it). I think that does not need much finesse other than creating the ice bolt, then aiming it to shoot at it.

Right, because not pulling out his Grakata after having his Spectra disassembled is not showing restraint. Or maybe going off to attack the Ash after the stern talk.

If you did not get it, that was sarcasm. And I know the limits, thank you very much, without you constantly reminding/nagging about it.

STOP IT. NOW. YOU'RE ALL ACTING LIKE BICKERING CHILDREN.

Enough of the arguments. They bother everyone else, disrupt others, and take up useless space in the thread, /and/ give Temperance /grief./

Drop it. NOW.

Seriously? We're all mature here, so I shouldn't have to chastise to bring upon an end to this useless quarrel.

Edited January 7, 2015 by WingedCrusade

[Drakeardian]

STOP IT. NOW. YOU'RE ALL ACTING LIKE BICKERING CHILDREN.

Enough of the arguments. They bother everyone else, disrupt others, and take up useless space in the thread, /and/ give Temperance /grief./

Drop it. NOW.

Seriously? We're all mature here, so I shouldn't have to chastise to bring upon an end to this useless quarrel.

I agree.

[Lady_Viper]

....What. The. F**K did I just come back to?

[Drakeardian]

....What. The. F**K did I just come back to?

You don't want to know.

 

Speaking of which. Where were you?

Edited January 7, 2015 by Drakeardian

[S.T.M.P.D]

I suppose the only thing that bothers me is not a whit of human reaction. Cheap power is cheap, but is Alfrond really in such control of his emotions that he doesn't even react to the fact that he'll be cleaning bathrooms? Even without this whole "slow" character development thing, it just feels sort of... cheap. Like those white male protagonists that're surrounded by team members that they're mean to but it's ok because they're just that good. Like that's somehow an excuse for disrespect and attempting to tamper with the ship's systems. Again, I'll cite Sherlock (season 3 in particular) as an example.

 

I don't know. I just suppose that limits need to be recognized realistically.

 

....What. The. F**K did I just come back to?

OH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

 

DIVE FO' COVA HIDE YO KIDS HIDE YO WIFE

 

YOU JUST PISSED OFF DA VIPA 

 

FORECASTS INDICATE S#&$STORMS THROUGH THE END OF THE WEEK SO GET IN DAT Y2K BUNKA AND SHUT DA DOOR

 

I REPEAT LADY VIPA IS PISSED OFF

[Lady_Viper]

You don't want to know.

 

Speaking of which. Where were you?

At work pulling shifts for four days straight. I told you I'd be gone, remember?

[Renegade343]

I suppose the only thing that bothers me is not a whit of human reaction. Cheap power is cheap, but is Alfrond really in such control of his emotions that he doesn't even react to the fact that he'll be cleaning bathrooms? Even without this whole "slow" character development thing, it just feels sort of... cheap. Like those white male protagonists that're surrounded by team members that they're mean to but it's ok because they're just that good. Like that's somehow an excuse for disrespect and attempting to tamper with the ship's systems. Again, I'll cite Sherlock (season 3 in particular) as an example.

 

I don't know. I just suppose that limits need to be recognized realistically.

Provided that the first job was just to clean up the scorch marks (which is a relatively minor thing), and that no one was really around to see that other than some androids without emotion (which are non-human biologically, and most people would probably not care [or have any emotions towards] about that), that probably would not really impact much on anyone. 

 

Your example listed is biological people with biological people (or biological beings) (or maybe inorganic beings that are programmed with human-like emotions).

[Drakeardian]

At work pulling shifts for four days straight. I told you I'd be gone, remember?

Ooooooh.

[WingedCrusade]

Provided that the first job was just to clean up the scorch marks (which is a relatively minor thing), and that no one was really around to see that other than some androids without emotion (which are non-human biologically, and most people would probably not care [or have any emotions towards] about that), that probably would not really impact much on anyone.

Your example listed is biological people with biological people (or biological beings) (or maybe inorganic beings that are programmed with human-like emotions).

STOP IT NOW. WE'VE HAD IT WITH THE ARGUING.

Temperance already has the problem of dealing with Alfrond IC, he doesn't need to deal with us.

Edited January 7, 2015 by WingedCrusade

[SnaleKing]

Why do people think that demanding the argument to cease will fix anything? This is an open, unresolved issue, and not talking about it won't fix it. And declaring in all caps that someone else is acting childish isn't fixing anything either.

That being said, while I could talk down Renegade with a few more posts, a faster resolution would just be letting Temp exercise his authority as GM. So I'll just wait for that.

[S.T.M.P.D]

I have to side with fish here, Renegade.  I don't mind Alfrond being a flippant, self-important sod, if that's his character, but I do take issue with him handily circumventing tasks meant to challenge him or make him think about his actions, especially when his solutions are rather implausible.

Just wanna bring this up. If a challenge is presented for a specific purpose, and Renegade shrugs it off, that's defeating the purpose, isn't it? And how would applying cold to warped metal dewarp it?

Edited January 7, 2015 by S.T.M.P.D

[WingedCrusade]

Why do people think that demanding the argument to cease will fix anything? This is an open, unresolved issue, and not talking about it won't fix it. And declaring in all caps that someone else is acting childish isn't fixing anything either.

That being said, while I could talk down Renegade with a few more posts, a faster resolution would just be letting Temp exercise his authority as GM. So I'll just wait for that.

That's the point. Temperance has to deal with it already, but do you see an end to the argument in sight? How long will it go on for? It has to end.

And it is true, to continue this argument is pointless and childish as Renegade has already displayed he /will not listen./ He won't stop it, so who else will if the other party isn't either?

All the arguing has to end. Now.

So please, I plead of all of you to stop and end it now. Please.

Edited January 7, 2015 by WingedCrusade

[NanoVega]

I think it would be good manners to simply do that on a place where it doesn't bother anyone else, like write it in a diary or something, or address it in PMs, or you could, Y'know, mind business that pertains to your characters instead of bugging about stuff that most likely will only minorely affect them. If you want to bother people about having characters that disrespect other characters, then just don't, it's unnecessary, irrelevant, and in some cases hypocritical, considering there's at least one character each other character disrespects at least a little bit.

[SnaleKing]

I think it would be good manners to simply do that on a place where it doesn't bother anyone else, like write it in a diary or something, or address it in PMs, or you could, Y'know, mind business that pertains to your characters instead of bugging about stuff that most likely will only minorely affect them. If you want to bother people about having characters that disrespect other characters, then just don't, it's unnecessary, irrelevant, and in some cases hypocritical, considering there's at least one character each other character disrespects at least a little bit.

We have the chatango, Viper and I are there atm.

[Temperance000]

As Winged has said, repeatedly, I addressed this issue last night.  I do not like Renegade's solution, and I think his character is already shaping up to be an immovable object.

 

However, this discussion has already gotten out of hand.  So, as Winged has said:

 

DROP IT.  NOW.

 

I have decided, against my better judgment, to let Alfrond's little trick slide.  However, I will be taking steps to ensure that the rest of his sentence is far more unpleasant.