Calling For An End To Keyed Bosses

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I was just reading the "can we have a non-key boss that drops neurodes" topic and I don't think that goes far enough. Bosses should not be behind keys at all.

Lephantis was the first keyed boss since I started playing (right on the jump between u10 and u11) and Leph isn't so bad. You get nav coordinates al over the place, and then golem nav coordinates in all those missions. I could see the problems, but I got so loaded up with the needed resources that it was irrelevant. I just have to deal with the minor annoyance of actually crafting the key. The only reason I don't object to derelict keys is because prime parts drop there. Prime stuff requires keys.

I like the big, goofy character Vay Hek has become. I love the intro to his boss battle where he shows up right away and the boss battle continues through the stage. Making a production of it was a good change for warframe, a game where the majority of bosses are just chilling and waiting to die in identical rooms. However, once my friends and I got the parts for Hydroid, we stopped fighting Vay Hek. We haven't fought him for months now. None of us want to grind beacons, however fast some will claim it is, to fight a boss when the only valid reward will be a neurode. I don't know that we'd want to do it if the reward was ten neurodes. I forget Vay Hek exists most of the time, which I'm sure is the response all the design, recording, programming was going for.

I have a level thirty Mesa and I've never once fought Mutalist Alad. I was grinding syndicate points anyway, so I just sold a syndicate weapon and whatever mutalist coordinates I had and bought her. I have two more mutalist coordinates coming and I'll probably sell those too. I would only have had enough coordinates for two keys anyway. Combined with the keys my friends would make, we might have been able to get the Mesa parts, but what a pointless chore that is when I can dump them on other players and skip the grind. I will probably never fight Mutalist Alad. Again, I think about the manhours that went into all the different aspects of his creation, the lead-up event, multiple voice recording takes, programming, figuring out how to get the collar to take control of players, modeling all those wiggly bits and then about how wasted it is when people like me don't want to go through the grind and just buy the frame. I guess it gets some money into DE whether they just buy plat or, like I did, force other people to buy plat. But, for a game the developers appear so proud of, having people ignore content that took time and effort to create seems just awful. I would hate to see that happen so something I created even if it did get me a few extra bucks.

So no more keyed bosses.

And find a way to get those keyed bosses onto the star chart so people can derive some enjoyment from them, either entertainment or just convenient farming. Even farming is better than being ignored completely.

[Qinus_Axia]

I believe nothing that`s "good or very useful" in warframe was meant to be easily earned... and so it is with all the MMO games I`ve played.

 

I put up with it. Yes I buy some frames rather than making them. It`s way easier.

 

How I do it:

Do multiple T4 survival or defense... get stacks of rare fusion cores. Max out corrupted mods. Sell them at like 500 platinum.

Buy frames with the earnings and other stuff.

 

PS: I don`t really agree that bosses should not be behind keys. Most perhaps should not.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Calibree

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I believe nothing that`s "good or very useful" in warframe was meant to be easily earned... and so it is with all the MMO games I`ve played.

 

I put up with it. Yes I buy some frames rather than making them. It`s way easier.

 

How I do it:

Do multiple T4 survival or defense... get stacks of rare fusion cores. Max out corrupted mods. Sell them at like 500 platinum.

Buy frames with the earnings and other stuff.

 

PS: I don`t really agree that bosses should not be behind keys. Some perhaps should not.

 

It's not really about earning it (not that Mesa is espcially great compared to other frames I had already) or the rewards, but that these things are more trouble to play than they are entertaining. Vay Hek was neat, but the hassle of getting beacons and making keys outweighs the entertainment value of the encounter.

[Racercowboy]

What I find sad is that Moldy Salad V (Mutalist Alad V) was quite and underwhelming boss fight. I didn't feel like I was fighting a boss, but a glorified enemy.

 

Vay "what the" Hek felt like a boss, but he's a pain to grind for. I play this game for enjoyment, not to tire myself from endless rolling of the dice, so I don't even bother. N, I don't have Hydroid, nor do I intend to buy him with plat.

 

Lephantis was much better designed than the other two as far as the grind goes, as the OP mentioned. As you are enjoying the game, you get OD key parts to drop. You discover, "Hey, it's a new area to explore, let's go exploring!" As you explore, you find parts to his keys, which you can craft to fight him. It's not locked behind an unbreakable wall of rng, or limited to just one enemy dropping 1 of 4 parts in an obviously rigged drop table.

 

I just hope these new boss reworks that are coming are not locked behind walls like these. Like I said earlier, I play this game to enjoy being a space ninja, not to continuously roll the dice to see if the right side lands.

[RCOAS]

Well.. the mutalist alad nav coords. I would be fine if they gave me 10 per invasion tho.

[Egg_Chen]

I've said this many times before, why rework / add these bosses only for us to play them a few times until we get the frame.

Why create content then stop us playing it?

 

Since getting Nekros, Hydroid and Mesa I have probably run Lephantis a couple of times to help a clannie out.

Hek and Mut Alad, I have not re-run, and I would if I could just click on Everest or wherever and do so.

 

I understand the time-wall I really do, but is it needed months afterwards?

Should Hek have taken his place on Everest by now?

 

+1 OP.

 

Edit: I only hope they do not do this for Golem if it is an Archwing battle.

Archwing needs reasons to play it more than anything, not obstacles.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Egg_Chen

[Qinus_Axia]

What I find sad is that Moldy Salad V (Mutalist Alad V) was quite and underwhelming boss fight. I didn't feel like I was fighting a boss, but a glorified enemy.

 

Vay "what the" Hek felt like a boss, but he's a pain to grind for. I play this game for enjoyment, not to tire myself from endless rolling of the dice, so I don't even bother. N, I don't have Hydroid, nor do I intend to buy him with plat.

 

Lephantis was much better designed than the other two as far as the grind goes, as the OP mentioned. As you are enjoying the game, you get OD key parts to drop. You discover, "Hey, it's a new area to explore, let's go exploring!" As you explore, you find parts to his keys, which you can craft to fight him. It's not locked behind an unbreakable wall of rng, or limited to just one enemy dropping 1 of 4 parts in an obviously rigged drop table.

 

I just hope these new boss reworks that are coming are not locked behind walls like these. Like I said earlier, I play this game to enjoy being a space ninja, not to continuously roll the dice to see if the right side lands.

 

I like the way you say it and I wish to have it that way too. Sadly it`s not all happy go lucky for majority.

 

It's not really about earning it (not that Mesa is espcially great compared to other frames I had already) or the rewards, but that these things are more trouble to play than they are entertaining. 

 

I agree that it`s more of a trouble to play than being entertained. I don`t force myself in anyway. I just practise.

[LythronaxPrime]

I agree, I joined in the middle of update 13 and by the time I was strong enough to grind the keys for Vay Hek, the game was already into update 14 and everyone had seemingly forgotten about Vay Hek/Hydroid. I think a simple solution that would allow the keys to stay would be to take the lephantis route with both of them; just replace nav coordinates with mutalist nav coords on eris and with beacons on ceres.

[(PSN)Fbeast2]

Now you are starting to see the results of the buyout. Shareholders are asking for De to produce more profits.

[Morec0]

I agree that the issue is Alad doesn't feel like a boss on par with his matching "far the keys and fight me!" boss Vay Hek. That said, I feel that all factions deserve EXACTLY two things:

 

1) A SINGLE key boss. A boss on an already-established planet accessible via keys gained from elsewhere, preferably with a regular boss on the same planet (Golem will be doing this for Alad soon enough, but Vay Hek still needs one).

 

2) A SINGLE key planet. For the Infested this is the Orokin Derelict, and that's all we currently have (though I say for the Grineer we ought to go with Earth's moon when it becomes a thing).

[Shimonoki_Ryuji]

I totally agree, that this key bulls*it is infuriating.

 

When Lephantis came out, i was just asking people in the chat to help me. When i was done farming Nekros after some runs, i have never been there. Why? Cause i didn't want to bother building derelict keys, then farming derelicts for Lephantis coordinates, then farming Lephantis himself. I didn't want to go thru that nonsense again.

 

When Vay Hek came out, i did the same. Why? Cause i didn't want to go thru that beacon farming nonsense. Though, i must say, that i was honestly trying to farm them, but after countless hours, the rarest beacon never dropped and i said "F**k this s**t, i'm going to chat!". Again, ever since Hydro farming was done i've never been there and never will.

 

When Mutalist Salad came out... Well, you might already guess. I actually didn't even bother farming Mesa in any way. I was very disappointed in DE, when they did that for the 3rd time, but even worse.

 

I must say, that i regularly fight non-key bosses. Cause i can just dive in and have some fun.

 

Keyed bosses are a nuisance and a pain in the baguette to reach.

 

Some older players might remember what happened when the Void was planned to be released. We were told about various interesting ways to enter it.

 

Ok, but what we got? KEY FARMING!

 

Was that supposed to be an interesting way to enter the Void? Really? This is bulls*it!

[Bongever]

I agree on the dislike of keyed bosses. Grinding for weapons to use, I can stand that. Grinding to face enemies to use my weapons on, not so much.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

DE should just use in-game requirements to "lock" these bosses. For example, accessing Vey Hek could require killing Sargas Ruk, the G3, and Lech Krill at least once. Accessing Mutalist Alad V could require killing (maiming?) normal Alad V and completing Eris.

 

These things would only need to be completed once.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I agree that the issue is Alad doesn't feel like a boss on par with his matching "far the keys and fight me!" boss Vay Hek. That said, I feel that all factions deserve EXACTLY two things:

 

1) A SINGLE key boss. A boss on an already-established planet accessible via keys gained from elsewhere, preferably with a regular boss on the same planet (Golem will be doing this for Alad soon enough, but Vay Hek still needs one).

 

2) A SINGLE key planet. For the Infested this is the Orokin Derelict, and that's all we currently have (though I say for the Grineer we ought to go with Earth's moon when it becomes a thing).

 

I like the idea of having a newbie boss and advanced boss on each planet. Repeated Alad encounters kind of throw a wrench into that, because of how the "story" in Warframe progresses, but I'll get to that later. A regular earth boss that must be completed (along with whatever other requirements that aren't just grinding keys) to unlock Vay Hek sounds like a way to add more interest to the star chart without a big shake up. It's one extra node, or just a nightmare mode type selection on the boss node.

 

Repeated characters like Alad make it more difficult because the story in warframe progresses real time, through events. Each event seems tied to the last, and players start experiencing it whenever they start playing. I started really playing on the hunt for alad v event (I'm not going to count the little time I tried it on PC). having both Hunt For era Alad and Mutalist era Alad on the star chart would be confusing and the jump in time between the two doesn't make much sense if the second fight is unlocked later, because the story is presented real time through events (that will have passed) and not through star chart progression.

[Morec0]

I like the idea of having a newbie boss and advanced boss on each planet. Repeated Alad encounters kind of throw a wrench into that, because of how the "story" in Warframe progresses, but I'll get to that later. A regular earth boss that must be completed (along with whatever other requirements that aren't just grinding keys) to unlock Vay Hek sounds like a way to add more interest to the star chart without a big shake up. It's one extra node, or just a nightmare mode type selection on the boss node.

 

Repeated characters like Alad make it more difficult because the story in warframe progresses real time, through events. Each event seems tied to the last, and players start experiencing it whenever they start playing. I started really playing on the hunt for alad v event (I'm not going to count the little time I tried it on PC). having both Hunt For era Alad and Mutalist era Alad on the star chart would be confusing and the jump in time between the two doesn't make much sense if the second fight is unlocked later, because the story is presented real time through events (that will have passed) and not through star chart progression.

 

If old events are added in as quests, make it a prerequisite they're done first before the ones later down the storyline can be completed (obviously this doesn't apply to the current playerbase, given we've already accomplished so much). I.E. : Hunt for Alad V Quest ---> Mutalist Empire Quest

 

Other than that, it's game mechanics, the same as any other MMO with a boss system that allows you to go back and fight them over and over. I.E: Fighting normal Kael'thas in Tempest Keep, then Corrupted Kael'thas in Magisters Terrace, and then going back to fight normal Kael'thas again in Tempest Keep - game mechanics! There's really no need to rack ones brain over it.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Oh, I know. Regardless of how well I think the story may be executed, the "living universe" is one of the cooler aspects of Warframe. Things go on and new players start in the present, rather than the beginning of the story. It makes for a unique experience. Having them added as quests would change that, but I'll consider that when that happens.

 

And, yeah, replaying bosses is just a thing. Can't take that into account. I'm looking at it like a snapshot of the solar system and there's two of the same guy, in different places, from different times, doing things. It's not replaying it that's the issue, it's that the setting is inconsistent. I guess Vor and Corrupted Vor present a similar issue. We'll have to see how a plot/setting solidifies.

Edited December 24, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[(PSN)jwernecke]

I just want to know why it takes one nav coord. to build a derelict key, 5 golem coords to build oda(easily obtained through any derelict mission) and then hek takes like 15 per key that only drop from very specific enemies and only some times, now the alad v key takes 6 and they only drop in special alerts, found once a day, after I run it 3 times and have to wait for the node to clear? I'm fine with only getting the nav cord to drop from specific places but if that's the case then at least make it so I can build a key in one day.

[RyouichiKitsune]

never done the hydriod run.....probably never will :I.

 

 

only reason i have mesa chassis and helm is because everyone was doing it and i was like EH might as well go along for the ride.  respectively i brought my own key. but still.......its boring and unneeded and no one bothers with it once its done.

 

 

i think the problem is we need replayable content. not 1 run and done.

Edited December 24, 2014 by RyouichiKitsune

[DoomFruit]

+1. You've wasted your effort on Hek and Salad, DE. I haven't once seen the new Hek since I got Hydroid and I will never look at Rotten Salad again if I ever finish getting Mesa. Lephantis isn't so bad, but I've no real reason to go there any more.

[Makya]

+1. You've wasted your effort on Hek and Salad, DE. I haven't once seen the new Hek since I got Hydroid and I will never look at Rotten Salad again if I ever finish getting Mesa. Lephantis isn't so bad, but I've no real reason to go there any more.

No reason to visit any boss multiple times unless you need their drops. What's the point you're getting at?

[DoomFruit]

No reason to visit any boss multiple times unless you need their drops. What's the point you're getting at?

New Hek has Argon Crystals (aka. Magic Pumpkins) and Control Modules. I can get those in the Void far more easily. Rotten Salad drops Neurodes - something I can get more reliably from ordinary survival on Eris.

 

Ruk drops Orokin Cells and I see him frequently. Fresh Salad drops Neural Sensors - I see him fairly often too. Bosses are the best place to find the rare material for that planet. If I need those materials explicitly, I'll go see that boss. That is the point - DE put a lot of effort into making this stuff and I'm not going to even think about going back because it's locked behind an RNG wall and I can get the stuff from elsewhere. Any minor curiosity on my part (I forget what this boss is like - let's take a look again) will go unanswered because I really can't be bothered to farm up the resources (if it's even possible) and then wait for a key to be built. All that work, only to be deliberately locked behind a grindwall every single time you want to see it.

[ZukaBazuka]

More often than not in other games the bosses would drop some of the best loot in the game or make it rewarding doing that mission over going a normal mission. Right now very few bosses have any good reason to be done. Most don't drop any special mods apart from T4 Vor, but he always show up in that mission if you stay.

But these other bosses are mostly useless after you get their warframe parts and very few actually drop resources you need on a daily basis. Bosses are supposed to be hard, rewarding and a good reason to run them. Here none of it exist. The good reward are on other maps. They shouldn't even be called bosses for this game, They get their own special stage and they die so easily.

[Davoodoo]

I believe nothing that`s "good or very useful" in warframe was meant to be easily earned... and so it is with all the MMO games I`ve played.

I share that belief, but i dont believe that relying on additional walls makes it harder to get, just more time consuming and frustrating, also theres market which requires just 2 clicks to get that gear.

 

I want to put some work to beat a challenge that will grant me gear, not breeze through content and wait for reward.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Davoodoo