Power Creep Is A Good Thing, But Needs To Be More Difficult To Attain

[Br34kf4s7]

I see a lot on this forum about how the introduction of Primed mods and weapons such as Boltor Prime/Latron Prime not being nerfed and Soma Prime being introduced causes power creep in the game itself.

 

I'm not going to say there isn't power creep; I personally think the introduction of various "overpowered" weapons like the above mentioned and the Synoid Gammacor have drastically altered the way we play Warframe. But now I'm going to ask you a question:

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

You have to view it this way: "OP" is not a thing in Warframe. It's not. PvP is 1-hit-KO.game anyway, but we're going to focus on PvE powercreep at the moment. When fighting bots is the entire game, being able to kill them faster and more efficiently is not overpowered, it's a good thing. The game is not about having trouble with Napalms, it's about spending 5 minutes winnowing down their health at MR2 and then easily killing five within 30 seconds at MR5. Speed is the name of the game, not damage. Sure, your Latron can drop 10 Bombards in the blink of an eye, but what if there's 50?

 

Exaggeration, but you get what I mean.

 

I guess I'm a relatively new Tenno, I've played for a few months and I'm MR 8 at the moment and proud of what I've accomplished. However, I don't feel much more powerful than I was at around Rank 4 or 5. I just have more gear and my mods are better. This may alter my playstyle a bit, but I've had maxed health, damage, and shield mods since Rank 2 and thus I haven't seen much difference in the way the game has treated me (e.g. how punishing enemies are, how much damage I do, etc.)

 

I'm going to argue that power creep in Warframe is a good thing, and necessary for players to not only feel more rewarded by their progress but also give the game a heightened sense of progression. I'll list a couple methods of handling heightened power creep in Warframe:

 

1) I know people have asked for this for a while now, but screw monetary reasons--we need more weapons with a Mastery requirement especially primes. It's stupid that anyone under rank 8 can have all the best gear in the game besides the Dragon Nikana (and who really needs it if you have the Dakra Prime?). This impedes the idea or want of further progression, and enforces a lack of reward the players derive from the game itself.

 

2) More difficulty would be nice. I don't want to brag, but I have a pretty easy time in T4 up until the 40 minute mark. I would love to see T5/T6 difficulties implemented, with heftier mod requirements to boot. But this isn't a player suggestion. I'm just saying that in order to compensate for power creep, it would be nice to see a heftier difficulty and tougher enemies.

 

3) I'd like to see Mastery Rank requirements on mods as well. There are some mods like Rage and corrupted mods that are extremely effective. We should also have more powerful mods available with higher Mastery requirements.

 

I'm a bit hungover right now and I can't think of anything more, but I'll leave you all to discuss. What are your opinions on power creep in Warframe, and what would you like to see changed or added to compensate and add to your gameplay experience as a whole?

 

PS: Merry Christmas :)

Edited December 24, 2014 by Stratospherius

[Sitchrea]

You cannot say Power Creep is a good thing and then ask for more difficulty.

[JohnProdman]

You cannot say Power Creep is a good thing and then ask for more difficulty.

This makes no sense at all.

[Filas312]

Actually the power creep is bad, because it renders numerous guns (effectively limiting your choice) unusable, that's it.

 

Why did you bring up Latron Prime? The gun is worse than the Wraith variant, so I guess it's fine.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Filas312

[Fulgar_Strike]

Woah woah woah woah.

but I've had maxed health, damage, and shield mods since Rank 2

 

 

Woah woah woah woah.

WHAT!?!? HAX!!!

[ArchBlood]

As soon as something gets hard people just cry for a nerf.

[Br34kf4s7]

Actually the power creep is bad, because it renders numerous guns (effectively limiting your choice) unusable, that's it.

 

Why did you bring up Latron Prime? The gun is worse than the Wraith variant, so I guess it's fine.

 

It was an example. Theres a simple solution to the problem of guns being unusable, and that is make modding more effective. And I'm one of those players who supports the idea that any gun is good when you've slapped 4 forma onto it :p

 

@Fulgar_Strike I took the game slow, lol. Focused on mods instead of cranking out weapons and frames in the foundry to level up fast (which I might add is a weird way to level up in a game).

Edited December 24, 2014 by Stratospherius

[Sitchrea]

This makes no sense at all.

 

Power Creep makes things easier.

 

Difficulty makes things harder.

 

In the end, it's the exact same level of hardness just with a few zeroes added onto the end every number.

[Zachhh]

People say there is no such thing as "OP" in a pve game.. But that is just wrong."Overpowered" is relative to both the rest of the weapons in the game, and the balance of enemies and difficulty.

 

If something outclasses literally every other weapon in the game, and makes any and all content trivial (hypothetically speaking) then that weapon is overpowered. Pvp or pve game. It doesn't matter.

[EetNotErn]

Basically a long winded way of saying that "balance does not matter in PVE so let's make stuff OP" which is completely wrong especially when you see those same people ask for buffs to weak weapons or frames. If balance does not matter then why ask for buffs?

[legendarysidekicksteve]

You are confusing power creep with progression. Power creep is a phenomenon when older content becomes obsolete due to newer content being better/cheaper/stronger/more efficient. Progression is a natural increase in the tools available to a player as he or she plays more of the game, and said tools are stronger than the older ones.

 

Here's a brief illustration.

 

Power Creep:  A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because another level 50 gun that deals 200 damage has been introduced, and all other things are equal.

 

Progression: A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because the player unlocks a level 55 gun that deals 150 damage, and all other things are equal.

[Sitchrea]

You are confusing power creep with progression. Power creep is a phenomenon when older content becomes obsolete due to newer content being better/cheaper/stronger/more efficient. Progression is a natural increase in the tools available to a player as he or she plays more of the game, and said tools are stronger than the older ones.

 

Here's a brief illustration.

 

Power Creep:  A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because another level 50 gun that deals 200 damage has been introduced, and all other things are equal.

 

Progression: A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because the player unlocks a level 55 gun that deals 150 damage, and all other things are equal.

[Br34kf4s7]

You are confusing power creep with progression. Power creep is a phenomenon when older content becomes obsolete due to newer content being better/cheaper/stronger/more efficient. Progression is a natural increase in the tools available to a player as he or she plays more of the game, and said tools are stronger than the older ones.

 

Here's a brief illustration.

 

Power Creep:  A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because another level 50 gun that deals 200 damage has been introduced, and all other things are equal.

 

Progression: A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because the player unlocks a level 55 gun that deals 150 damage, and all other things are equal.

 

Well, I'll be damned, you're right. Needless to say then, we need more progression other than weapon-hoarding.

[Filas312]

It was an example. Theres a simple solution to the problem of guns being unusable, and that is make modding more effective. And I'm one of those players who supports the idea that any gun is good when you've slapped 4 forma onto it :p

Actually the "any gun is good with 4 forma" sentence is correct just to some level of endless gaming. I know you cannot balance for endless, but the base stats DO sort the guns into worse and better, no matter the modding system or anything. After all modding is just about fitting yourself, not about making it better - as thus guns inherently better will stay better, but behave differently than they did before.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Well, I'll be damned, you're right. Needless to say then, we need more progression other than weapon-hoarding.

 

I don't think I've ever seen that... You just made the Internet better today by actually considering a criticism someone else made of your argument.

[Lunamaniac]

Power Creep:  A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because another level 50 gun that deals 200 damage has been introduced, and all other things are equal.

 

Progression: A level 50 gun that deals 100 damage is no longer used because the player unlocks a level 55 gun that deals 150 damage, and all other things are equal.

Surely in both examples the new gun renders the old one obsolete...?  I definitely prefer alternatives to linear progression.

[Filas312]

Selection of higher alpha against high RoF and other quirks. Like cutting stuff (Braton Prime, my love).

 

Like a sniper rifle dealing 500DMG at once vs a SMG dealing 10DMG every shot and having 50 bullets mag. Pure DMG vs versatility, that kind of stuff.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Filas312

[CriticalFumble]

Surely in both examples the new gun renders the old one obsolete...?  I definitely prefer alternatives to linear progression.

 

Please. 

 

Power creep is bad here because all you've done is summoned bigger cheese.  Difficulty zeroes out again when the mobs have enough cheese of their own.  I would much rather have to learn how to fight more effectively than scrounge up bigger better mods just to keep up with the mobs. 

 

Remember having to play without Serration or Hornet Strike because you couldn't get them to drop?  That was not especially fun or satisfying.  But yes, have some wine with your cheese. 

[Monolake]

Because  leaving 80-something weapons hopelessly outdated and unused is a good thing?

 

Because having the game easy boring for first 40+ minutes in endless missions is a good thing?

 

Because needing to introduce absolutely cheesy enemies that totally nullify your powers and rediculously gate damage/shots is a good thing? 

[Dorvarich]

I do think that another Void tier should still be added, just because spending 40 minutes in a T4 mission to start fighting non-trivial enemies is kind of ridiculous. What's done is done - nerfing everyone's favorite weapons would not go over well with the community.

[MisterUltimate]

I took the game slow, lol. Focused on mods instead of cranking out weapons and frames in the foundry to level up fast (which I might add is a weird way to level up in a game).

I think that's the thing most don't understand about Mastery. It's a measurement of how much gear you've crafted and leveled, not your progress through the game. This is unlike something like Neverwinter or Diablo, where each rank signifies the growth of your character. It's completely possible for a Mastery Rank 2 to be on equal footing with a Mastery Rank 18, because we don't level characters, we level gear. You can level that gear by trying harder and harder content, by wearing it on your back while you use something useful, or by running 10 waves of Lares over and over and over. Challenging yourself is optional.

 

As it stands, the only reason to rank up in Mastery is to unlock a few weapons, get more trades, deploy more extractors, etc. If none of that interests you, you aren't required to rank up.

This is the main issue I have with Mastery Locks. In other games, your character becomes more powerful with each level, thus gaining the ability to wield more powerful gear. To rank up further, you usually have to face more difficult mobs, because the ones you faced before offer diminishing returns as you rank up. In Warframe, however, you rank up by using gear, most of which the average player will trash after it hits 30. We don't even gain mastery for honing our weapons and frames with formas, making our gear as powerful as it can be.

That's why I think we don't have locks on the more recent Primes. The idea that you can't use the Soma Prime because you didn't craft/rank/trash enough mastery fodder just highlights how deficient Mastery is as a measurement of progress.

For Mastery Locks to have meaning, first Mastery has to represent an actual accomplishment. You should be able to look at an MR18 and have an idea of the challenges they've overcome, not what kinds of weapons are in their trash. And that's what many don't want to consider. That to lock the most powerful weapons in a way that makes sense, you must first change the Mastery System itself to be a measure of progress as a player.

[Filas312]

I do think that another Void tier should still be added, just because spending 40 minutes in a T4 mission to start fighting non-trivial enemies is kind of ridiculous.

Maybe not non-trivial, but stuff at least starts to be funny at that level.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Filas312

[cyrus106]

another thing is you DONT honestly need max redirection or vitality. Ive ran 360% on both, im MR 18 now and I still do just as well, if not better, than those with max shield and health mods. I feel like max health and shields encourage facetanking and doesnt actually help that much in late endless modes

[magusat999]

What is also bad about Power Creep is besides introducing new, more powerful items to the game (unnecessarily - but it turns into a cash cow component) is alienating players by compensating via nerfing. Anytime you start seeing nerfing in a game, which is highly inconsiderate to players, no matter what your opinion of the thing that is getting nerfed, your witnessing a company that has started to fall into the power creep pool. The so-called "balance" is actually cutting off tops and bottoms to ensure the new thing "fits". The new thing is introduced due to the company needing revenue, so they will be very dogmatic - sometimes even heartless, about introducing it whether the fanbase wants it or not. The new thing can only be so powerful, otherwise it will break the game - the power creep solution is to nerf the current most powerful thing, making it look like the new thing is better than it actually is. 

 

Doravich, I learned a few months ago that DE is beyond the point of caring what people think. They Nerfed our launchers at the time, and the majority of people did not want that. there was a small vocal minority, but DE was very aggressive, punishing and arrogant against the unpopular move. They have moved into the "money is everything" category and are wholly unconcerned about what people want. They did some of the harshest nerfs starting October 2013 all the way to July of 2014. They had to do it because people didn't need new weapons or Warframes with the ones we had - and new stuff is their bread and butter. With a Frost that had a perpetual Snowglobe, a Vauban who's Bastions kept ALL of the enemies out, a Rhino who's Iron Skin was impenetrable and lasted through the whole level, a Nova who's Molecular Prime instantaneously wiped out entire levels of creatures, launchers that wiped out hordes of enemies without you having to run around and get ammo, several guns that killed the toughest opponents in one or two shots (pre-nerfed SOMA, for example),  helmets that fixed the  issues the Warframes had programmed into them (like Rhino's slowness), players didn't need anything new. We just enjoyed the game and looked at some of the stuff they came out as novelties we would never have use of. "Castanas? Yeah cute - now get out of the way while I use a real weapon - my pre-nerfed Penta..."Power Creep makes you do crazy things. What was really sad is people were so caught up in the OP hype they cheered DE along as they performed yet another cash-cow activity. Power Creep is a process, but don't get confused and deceived - Power Creep is not about balance, its about money - the money coming out of your wallet.

[Killist]

I wouldn't mind power creep so much if the newer, more powerful mods and weapons were available at higher mastery rank.

This way there is a clear sense of progression rather than getting your hands on the most powerful set up in the game 10 hours in and everything after that becoming boring and tedious.