Bananastarfishember

[BlueSabre]

To start if this thread is in the wrong section, I would like to ask a moderator to please move it to the appropriate sub-forum.

 

Over the past few months since Ember's rework I’ve seen a steady influx of topics on the forum asking for Ember to be reviewed. STOP READ THESE WORDS CAREFULLY, I AM NOT ASKING FOR OVERHEAT TO BE REINTRODUCED. What I am saying is that if one person is complaining about something that person may or may not be doing something wrong, but if more and more people keep complaining about the same thing something must be wrong, either that or they are all idiots.

 

I've seen this play out many times through several threads

 

>Person makes a thread asking for a buff/rework

 

>Many agree, pointing out what they perceive to be her downfalls

 

>Arbitrary remark about bringing back overheat but with some trivial nerf

 

>Arbitrary remark stating that the thread is about people being lazy and/or wanting Ember to return to easy mode

 

>The nay sayer who comes in and says that those who are having problems with Ember don't understand how to use her, they then go on to provide their own example of an instance in which they have successfully used her in a difficult setting + an insult.

 

After this the thread devolves into arguing and bickering (I might be over simplifying), so I would like to ask those who have mastered Ember to help provide the rest of the community with some insight it to what we are doing wrong. I own every single warframe except Excalibur Prime (couldn’t afford to buy the founders package at the time), Nyx Prime, Nova Prime and Mesa and I will say that making an effective build for Ember has been an exceedingly difficult because there are so many different attributes to synergize. The build that I am happiest with right now utilizes no corrupt mods, but I am happy with it.

 

So having said all this I personally want to know how those of you who claim to be able to effectively use her in high level content balance her for sustained power AND survivability, please feel free to post your builds, strategies and insights into how you have mastered her.

 

And make no mistake I am calling you out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[immolator1001]

You'd have more luck going to players helping players and making a thread called "Late game ember builds." Because then people would actually give you that.

[meIody-]

Uh, not sure if it's valid, and it certainly isn't mine, but this build seems to work.

Edited December 29, 2014 by MorteTacere

[BlueSabre]

My point of this thread isnt just about late game builds because i dont believe that her problems can be solved by figuring out the most efficent way to spam accelerate or building her around max power and quick thinking, its much more than that. The point of this thread is to highlight the problems that I and other members of the community have become aware of and a way to address those problems instead of saying "buff this" or "nerf that".

[geninrising]

immolator1001 is correct in stating this would better be set up in Players helping players. Feedback is for all around complaints and potential solutions. If you want detailed or in depth help on a a build Players helping players is far better.

[BlueSabre]

Hm, i dont understand why is it that those who read the thread ignore everything that i've said and only focus on the part where I talked about builds?

 

The only reason that i included that part was to help generate some discussion as to how others have found ways to bypass her weaknesses, so that said weaknesses can be more easily identified. I fell like i'm repeating myself over and over again.

[.Czern]

Ugh, want me to write it again?

I will skip the part with bad community, thank you.

 

So, problems.

1. Poor modding flexibility (she depends on all attributes besides duration and range for Fire Ball and range for Fire Blast).

2. Average defensive stats mixed with very weak CC abilities, slow speed (for a CQC oriented warframe) and lack of defensive skills makes her very fragile, it is possible to survive even at super high levels but that requires lots of focus and movement skill.

3. She is too reliant on Accelerant, it's her main CC and, somewhat mandatory on higher levels, high damage buff. Or rather resistance debuff.

4. Accelerant costs a lot of energy if you want to cover every group with it (I'm not talking about max efficiency builds).

5. Fire Blast doesn't work, for some reason ranged enemies walk through it while melee units don't. Haha. Ha. Or it's just my luck.

6. Fire Blast would be great if it really either stopped enemies completely from coming in (those who dared would be procced) or had a radial knockdown on initial blast (similar to Fire Eximi slams).

7. World on Fire picks targets randomly and has a max targets cap, it's not a problem on levels when you are god spreading havoc but in real game it can be problematic.

8. She is damn slow.

9. World on Fire has 0 status chance which is absolutely immersion-breaking.

So, from my point of view, she should get sprint speed buff, small tweaks for WoF, toggle for WoF, Accelerant's buff slightly reduced and abilities damage increased, radial knockdown on initial cast of Fire Blast, fixed Fire Blast, Fire Blast's cost reduced to 50, Accelerant's to 25-35.

 

A good build? It's doing quite well in end-game for me.

Corrosive Projection/Energy Siphon, Redirection, Rush, Intensification, Blind Rage r5, Streamline, Transient Fortitude, Continuity, Stretch/Fireball Frenzy.

 

Oh well, I forgot about "tactics".

Use your weapons as your main attack line and your movement as main defense line, cast Fire Balls to stun heavies/packed groups, when you need some AoE damage copter in the middle of a group, press 2, spin around mashing 1 and run away. Or just 2 and then 4. You can also use heat and only heat on your weapons to boost their damage with Accelerant. Works quite well. Don't use Ignis, it's too obvious (I'm serious, you should main Akmagnus).

When enemies don't instagib you with one bullet you can press 4 and kill everything around you.

It's extremely fun to use duration build on very low level missions (especially excavations [especially on Earth]) and place fire rings in every tile's entrance. They walk into it and instantly die. You can bring Nekros if you like shimmering stones.

Edited December 30, 2014 by .Czern

[Archwizard]

While I agree with essentially everything else Czern says...

 

8. She is damn slow.

 

I see this complaint about her a lot but don't particularly understand it. Alright, she's 10% lower in speed than Banshee for what would otherwise be the same stat budget, fine, but it's not like that 10% means Banshee can fly and not every frame who avoids this complaint has a way to get around. I've seen people complimenting Mag on her speed among the starters, despite having the same 1.0 sprint as Excalibur and Volt and even Ember here.

 

Now, I understand that often this is used in reference to Ember's low defenses without the ability that shall not be mentioned (which is presently rolling in its grave), especially now that enemy accuracy is theoretically inversely proportional to the player's agility.

I will also say that this does tie into the fact that Ember really only has her damage to bring to the table. Most frames can bring some amount of CC or support into a mission in addition to damage, and even a mobile frame can get between Interception points, Life Support capsules or downed allies quickly.

I will also agree that some additional form of mobility would tie nicely into her mobility-dependent ultimate.

 

My only problem with this one argument is that her speed is often singled out, despite not particularly being a cause so much as a byproduct of the developers' ignorance to her standing post-Damage 2.0. If she could cauterize wounds or hide in her flames or something to sustain herself or others, "slow" would probably not be a big complaint.

Not that I am saying speed would be at all bad for her, or that she should heal or stealth.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Archwizard

[BlueSabre]

So, problems.

1. Poor modding flexibility (she depends on all attributes besides duration and range for Fire Ball and range for Fire Blast).

2. Average defensive stats mixed with very weak CC abilities, slow speed (for a CQC oriented warframe) and lack of defensive skills makes her very fragile, it is possible to survive even at super high levels but that requires lots of focus and movement skill.

3. She is too reliant on Accelerant, it's her main CC and, somewhat mandatory on higher levels, high damage buff. Or rather resistance debuff.

4. Accelerant costs a lot of energy if you want to cover every group with it (I'm not talking about max efficiency builds).

5. Fire Blast doesn't work, for some reason ranged enemies walk through it while melee units don't. Haha. Ha. Or it's just my luck.

6. Fire Blast would be great if it really either stopped enemies completely from coming in (those who dared would be procced) or had a radial knockdown on initial blast (similar to Fire Eximi slams).

7. World on Fire picks targets randomly and has a max targets cap, it's not a problem on levels when you are god spreading havoc but in real game it can be problematic.

8. She is damn slow.

9. World on Fire has 0 status chance which is absolutely immersion-breaking.

So, from my point of view, she should get sprint speed buff, small tweaks for WoF, toggle for WoF, Accelerant's buff slightly reduced and abilities damage increased, radial knockdown on initial cast of Fire Blast, fixed Fire Blast, Fire Blast's cost reduced to 50, Accelerant's to 25-35.

 

A good build? It's doing quite well in end-game for me.

Corrosive Projection/Energy Siphon, Redirection, Rush, Intensification, Blind Rage r5, Streamline, Transient Fortitude, Continuity, Stretch/Fireball Frenzy.

 

I agree with just about everything here, but i have to say that it surprised me that you would suggest turning to weapons for most of the damage. The reason i say this is because out of all the frames ember strikes me the most as the one who would be least dependent on her weapons for offence (up to a reasonable level), but i will try this and see if it changes my perspective on her. I find it funny that you reccomend rush, because I seldomly use rush in any of my builds for any of my other frames, but without it I can't stand using Ember. Might i also ask if you run with a trinity or if you are using ember prime to collect energy death orbs, because i notice you're only using streamline for power efficiency while also using blind rage.

While I agree with essentially everything else Czern says...

 

 

I see this complaint about her a lot but don't particularly understand it. Alright, she's 10% lower in speed than Banshee for what would otherwise be the same stat budget, fine, but it's not like that 10% means Banshee can fly and not every frame who avoids this complaint has a way to get around. I've seen people complimenting Mag on her speed among the starters, despite having the same 1.0 sprint Excalibur and Volt and even Ember here.

 

Now, I understand that often this is used in reference to Ember's low defenses without the ability that shall not be mentioned (which is presently rolling in its grave), especially now that enemy accuracy is theoretically inversely proportional to the player's agility.

I will also say that this does tie into the fact that Ember really only has her damage to bring to the table. Most frames can bring some amount of CC or support into a mission in addition to damage, and even a mobile frame can get between Interception points, Life Support capsules or downed allies quickly.

I will also agree that some additional form of mobility would tie nicely into her mobility-dependent ultimate.

 

My only problem with this one argument is that her speed is often singled out, despite not particularly being a cause so much as a byproduct of the developers' ignorance to her standing post-Damage 2.0. If she could cauterize wounds or hide in her flames or something to sustain herself or others, "slow" would probably not be a big complaint.

Not that I am saying speed would be at all bad for her, or that she should heal or stealth.

While the difference between her speed and banshee's isnt much different it is noticable. Lets say that i'm relying on abilities for a majority of my kills/damage because thats what Ember is all about damage, but my abilities and/or build requires that i have to in close proximity to use said skills (barring fireball) having to kill a group of mobs in one spot then another and another after a while it starts to become obvious that running from one place to the next while being shot at is either too slow or hazardous to my survival.

 

I am not accusing you of this, it is just a general statement but alot of times its easier to blame the individual for these shortcommings insead of looking at what problems actually lead to it in the first place.

 

This is a little off topic but when i think of all the times the devs have made changes to ember, all i can think of is the animation changes they made to WoF, which says to me that they are more concerned with the asthetics instead of functionality.

[Archwizard]

This is a little off topic but when i think of all the times the devs have made changes to ember, all i can think of is the animation changes they made to WoF, which says to me that they are more concerned with the asthetics instead of functionality.

 

They changed Fireball to explode on impact, but removed the lingering DoT effect it inflicts (it clipped on everything, but it always did damage). They gave her Accelerant, but purged the ability that shall not be named. They made Fire Blast unaffected by range mods due to the increase in Fireball's radius. And of course, they changed World on Fire's enemy targeting so many times I can't even count.

[GTG3000]

I guess that Ember right now is about the only frame I can think of that absolutely requires a constant influx of energy from sources other than the orbs enemy drop to be all that useful for prolonged periods of time.

 

Which makes her rather fun to use, decimating everything with help of a Trinity or a Synoid Gammacor, but rather tricky to use completely on her own.

 

She sure needs a rework still (and I can't help but look back at what fun she was with ability-that-should-not-be-named), but she still has SOME uses. Not that I see her used often, or at all.

[.Czern]

I agree with just about everything here, but i have to say that it surprised me that you would suggest turning to weapons for most of the damage. The reason i say this is because out of all the frames ember strikes me the most as the one who would be least dependent on her weapons for offence (up to a reasonable level), but i will try this and see if it changes my perspective on her. I find it funny that you reccomend rush, because I seldomly use rush in any of my builds for any of my other frames, but without it I can't stand using Ember. Might i also ask if you run with a trinity or if you are using ember prime to collect energy death orbs, because i notice you're only using streamline for power efficiency while also using blind rage.

She uses lots of energy so it's better to use her abilities only when you really need them or there isn't much threat (so you can risk running without energy), that's why I suggest to focus on weapons. With more powers-focused build it could be possible to rely on her abilities, but it leaves no free mod slots, so it's basically useless if you don't play in well-coordinated group.

I use the same build on both Ember and Ember Prime, mostly I use the non-primed and let's be honest, Trinities very rarely appear outside of coordinated groups. With careful use of her abilities (namely Accelerant and World on Fire, Fireballs are cheap with 262 energy pool) I rarely have problems with lack of energy and I'm able to cast Accel or WoF whenever I need them.

 

I see this complaint about her a lot but don't particularly understand it. 

She isn't slow compared to other warframes, but while playing her I feel that she is too slow for a Tenno with short-ranged abilities, who has to move a lot. In my opinion, high mobility and good use of acrobatics are key to master playing as Ember.

 

I guess that Ember right now is about the only frame I can think of that absolutely requires a constant influx of energy from sources other than the orbs enemy drop to be all that useful for prolonged periods of time.

 

Which makes her rather fun to use, decimating everything with help of a Trinity or a Synoid Gammacor, but rather tricky to use completely on her own.

I agree. On the other hand, her powers synergize well with each other (besides Fire Blast, which doesn't work at all most of the time [and doesn't have that awesome, incredibly useful and so much fitting in her kit knockdown on initial cast (DE pls :<)]).

[RealPandemonium]

 

And make no mistake I am calling you out.

 

They're coming after you, Aza!

 

 

On-topic, though, I have had success with a minimum duration, max efficiency setup (max Intensify, max Transient Fortitude, rank 2 Blind Rage, max Streamline and Fleeting Expertise, add as much duration as you deem worthy.)  The minimum duration setup is currently more effective comparatively due to the bug that makes Accelerant not stun enemies that are already debuffed by a previous Accelerent.  Otherwise you can use a higher-duration build that removes Blind Rage and ranks down Fleeting by 1, or do that and remove TF, or some mixture of the two.  Getting a second TF that you can tune to a different duration breakpoint than the max could be fruitful, though I prefer to go all-out or none at all when it comes to TF (will probably experiment with a half-maxed TF later.)  For defense I usually bring Redirection.  I don't use Flow, though it can help if you use QT .  Rage and QT can work pretty well (I know Azawarau uses those in his Life Strike melee Ember build with success and I have made it work decently myself.) 

 

When it comes to Narrow Minded, mine isn't maxed so I can't give feedback on using a minimum range build (sounds like it could be fun, but makes Accelerant pretty bad for defense.)  I would forgo Narrow Minded completely; I suspect people who call Ember short-ranged are using NM and getting killed as a result, which then leads to more misleading feedback.  I have used a rank 6 NM (+63% Duration, -42% range) along with Stretch with alright results.  You have to use Accelerant more often  because it doesn't reach as far but its debuff lasts longer and WoF is low-maintenance.  Getting closer to enemies is a problem for some but can lead to more interesting gameplay (bad if you want to play snoozeframe, sorry.)  Again, don't lower your range (or increase duration too much) until they fix the buggy stun on Accelerant.

 

What else would you guys like to know about how I mod Ember?

Edited January 1, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[.Czern]

On-topic, though, I have had success with a minimum duration,

What D:

So you have almost non-existing buff and use Accelerant only for stunlocking?

[RealPandemonium]

What D:

So you have almost non-existing buff and use Accelerant only for stunlocking?

3 seconds is enough to use 1 or 3 (or melee/shoot) and I can press 2 again after 3 seconds if I still need it (I just realized my TF is not maxed so it's not quite minimum duration.)  Minimum duration is preferable mostly due to the bug but works well enough due to the big damage boost in the first place.  Of course, WoF has only niche uses with this build.  

[(XBOX)LilHypezKiid]

Maybe to conserve her energy they could do what they did with mirage and make her ULT 50 energy since she cast a lot.

[RealPandemonium]

Maybe to conserve her energy they could do what they did with mirage and make her ULT 50 energy since she cast a lot.

If they made it a toggle then it would function very much like Mirage's 4 in terms of energy usage.  I would personally make it use more energy to prevent people having it on literally always.

[(XBOX)LilHypezKiid]

RealPandmonium true say

[IlluminaZero]

Ember is a mess. When you compare Ember Prime to the other Primes I can't help but wonder if it's intentional too.

 

And god no at Melee Accelerant Ember idea. Just use Excalibur. Radial Blind offers superior melee damage boost and gives useful team CC.

[Terrornaut]

Unless the damage boost scales instead of locking at 4x, Ember will best ex cals damage boost by 100-300%

[IlluminaZero]

Unless the damage boost scales instead of locking at 4x, Ember will best ex cals damage boost by 100-300%

Except the x4 applies to all damage, not just fire.

 

And Radial Blind's utility is on a completely different tier.

Edited January 3, 2015 by IlluminaZero

[RealPandemonium]

Unless the damage boost scales instead of locking at 4x, Ember will best ex cals damage boost by 100-300%

Ember's also doesn't go away when the enemy becomes aware of you.  

[BlueSabre]

Played around with ember and a trinity, i didnt think it was possible but accelerate gets better i constantly have to keep dousing the mobs with it but it is so rewarding, 3k burn damage with silva and aegis? I had to make sure it wasnt a slash proc. What i can say now is that i dont what to do with fireblast: the damage is laugable at best, the enemies walk through it like it isnt there or just ignore it all together and i cant use it in a pinch to get some breathing room tried it the results were quite unfavorable... What am i supposed to do with this skill, sigh.

 

I am excited about all the ember topics popping up over the forum, any publicity is good publicity and the more attention she gets the better.

[RealPandemonium]

Btw, Fire Blast's persistent damage is pretty bad but the inital damage hits everything in the radius and always procs.  Its damage is the same as Fireball's AOE component.  It's actually a handy panic button when you get into a bad situation up close and because it usually headshots the damage is pretty legit.  Drop it, gtfo, and you will probably kill even heavy units from the proc on your way out.  

[quietcanary]

I came across a specific phrase that describes the people you are having problem with. its called "geht gud" mentality and its my new favorite phrase on this forum.