All Powers Should Have Scale Ability Outright, Augments Should Add To/alter That Scale Ability

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes that would be a really good fix for it actually :) Nice one!

Adding to the OP! And thanks! Usability like this would be great in setting up this ability. It could be extremely useful for many squads and also for enemy flow to be redirected, if need be.

[Nosferagon]

This is awesome. Hope the Devs take notice. Keep it up! :D

[Autongnosis]

The OP isvery well done, i agree wholeheartedly. Just a small correction: Ash's shuriken already scales decently well, and is augment even moreso:

- the base Bleed proc is based on the total damage and bypasses armour and shields

- the augment gives it a boosted Corrosive proc that reduces armour of the targets by 75%

It's already a good source of damage event at high level and the targeting mechanics makes the augment a nice addition for softening hard targets.

Other than that the post is awesome and very well written on top of that

[AlphaHorseman]

The OP isvery well done, i agree wholeheartedly. Just a small correction: Ash's shuriken already scales decently well, and is augment even moreso:

- the base Bleed proc is based on the total damage and bypasses armour and shields

- the augment gives it a boosted Corrosive proc that reduces armour of the targets by 75%

It's already a good source of damage event at high level and the targeting mechanics makes the augment a nice addition for softening hard targets.

Other than that the post is awesome and very well written on top of that

Thank you for the correction! I had no idea of this as I do not play Ash often.

 

This is awesome. Hope the Devs take notice. Keep it up! :D

I'm doing my best, haha.

[AlphaHorseman]

The OP isvery well done, i agree wholeheartedly. Just a small correction: Ash's shuriken already scales decently well, and is augment even moreso:

- the base Bleed proc is based on the total damage and bypasses armour and shields

- the augment gives it a boosted Corrosive proc that reduces armour of the targets by 75%

It's already a good source of damage event at high level and the targeting mechanics makes the augment a nice addition for softening hard targets.

Other than that the post is awesome and very well written on top of that

To clarify, is this from an augment, or from Ash's shuriken at baseline?

[Autongnosis]

The damage part is base.

To further clarify, base shuriken deals, with no strenght mods:

- 500 damage per shuriken, slash type, reduced by armour

- 245% of 500 damage (1225 damage) on 7 ticks over 6 seconds, unmodified by armour.

Obviously this scales a LOT with power strenght mods.

The corrosive-like proc is from the Seeking Shuriken augment

Edited March 17, 2015 by Autongnosis

[AlphaHorseman]

The damage part is base.

To further clarify, base shuriken deals, with no strenght mods:

- 500 damage per shuriken, slash type, reduced by armour

- 245% of 500 damage (1225 damage) on 7 ticks over 6 seconds, unmodified by armour.

Obviously this scales a LOT with power strenght mods.

The corrosive-like proc is from the Seeking Shuriken augment

Ah I see, thank you for clarifying!

 

Could you please cite a source so that I may make the corrections to this thread with grounds to defend those corrections.

[Autongnosis]

Wiki first, then gameplay. Bleed procs on enemies bypass armour, in fact shurikens at high level do more damage per tick than with the first attack.

To be hones for factual proof i don't know where you could look but the wiki, it says pretty clearly that the Bleed proc bypasses armour and shileds (on enemies at least).

[AlphaHorseman]

Wiki first, then gameplay. Bleed procs on enemies bypass armour, in fact shurikens at high level do more damage per tick than with the first attack.

To be hones for factual proof i don't know where you could look but the wiki, it says pretty clearly that the Bleed proc bypasses armour and shileds (on enemies at least).

Perfect! Will be making corrections!

[Autongnosis]

I had the chance to test it. Shurikens with no strenght mods do 175 damage per tick no matter the enemy or their level. Tested on corrupted lancers/butchers/heavy gunners/bombards.

 

First test on level 30ish, then 50ish and 80ish

Edited March 18, 2015 by Autongnosis

[AlphaHorseman]

I had the chance to test it. Shurikens with no strenght mods do 175 damage per tick no matter the enemy or their level. Tested on corrupted lancers/butchers/heavy gunners/bombards.

 

First test on level 30ish, then 50ish and 80ish

Very nice, it adds a bit of scale ability to the power.

[Fionntan]

 

Maybe ability and weapon augment mods are DE's way of getting us to pay to test changes they are considering!

/tinfoil_hat

 

Could you elaborate on this? I feel as though I'm not getting your point.

 

If it has been answered then wops :s 

 

In regard to Archistophele's quote, even if was meant as joke sorts who knows, maybe the augments are an experiment from DE to see what favors what to be added as potential passive for frame abilities? I know is wishful thinking, thought wouldn't be neat if that is the case and they follow thru with your/other's ideas and thread? :D 

 

Also +1 with whole thing in general, but I do need state one concern for this. While some I do see them as legit band-aids or others are better off meshed with the frame, there some better of as augment mod like Total Eclipse: it be worrisome to have that as a passive since is quite strong with no downsides ... :x Sorry again if I missed a point to counter that. 

[Sev7n]

Surging Dash was not a band aid fix to slash dash because slash dash was never in need of buffs or tweaks. It makes you invincible during its cast while letting you travel distances. It's a lot stronger than most this community realizes. 

[AlphaHorseman]

If it has been answered then wops :s 

 

In regard to Archistophele's quote, even if was meant as joke sorts who knows, maybe the augments are an experiment from DE to see what favors what to be added as potential passive for frame abilities? I know is wishful thinking, thought wouldn't be neat if that is the case and they follow thru with your/other's ideas and thread? :D 

 

Also +1 with whole thing in general, but I do need state one concern for this. While some I do see them as legit band-aids or others are better off meshed with the frame, there some better of as augment mod like Total Eclipse: it be worrisome to have that as a passive since is quite strong with no downsides ... :x Sorry again if I missed a point to counter that. 

Oh no you're quite fine. I've not used Total Eclipse as an example as I haven't used it myself, nor have others commented on it. I advocated for our powers to have scale ability through CC/Utility, but not be given this scale ability in an augment, but rather built into the power. Augments, in my opinion, should add something to a power that it does not need to scale. They should act as interesting additions to powers that give them another dimension, rather than give them traits that make them usable for all ladders of content.

 

Surging Dash was not a band aid fix to slash dash because slash dash was never in need of buffs or tweaks. It makes you invincible during its cast while letting you travel distances. It's a lot stronger than most this community realizes. 

To be clear, the point of contention was that Surging Dash added hits to the melee counter, when common sense says it should've done that outright, and many in the community agreed it should do so outright. Luckily, DE did make it so that now Slash Dash adds to the melee counter.

 

Wouldn't it be nice though if the unit collision was removed from Slash Dash? It removes the small pauses that take away from the duration of a Slash Dash due to hitting enemy units on the way. It would make it a straightforward ability that is a bit more reliable utility and mobility wise.

[Mesyra]

I think when you buy and augment, it shouldn't have to be put on your frames, it should just be part of your account, IE VYR3 has Total Eclipse in his account, Mirage will team buff always.

[Autongnosis]

I'm not so sure about it.

 

Some augments are just too much, if you remove the opportunity cost of losing a mod... Particularly Mirage's.

i could definitely see though a specialised augment slot, maybe something you can only add if the frame is potatoed and formaed at least once by spending a forma, that can be used for an augment. SOmething like an aura slot that costs capacity instead of giving it.

 

You could still put augments in the normal 8 slots (so you could theoretically have more than one) but that slot would be reserved for augments and augments alone.

[Sev7n]

To be clear, the point of contention was that Surging Dash added hits to the melee counter, when common sense says it should've done that outright, and many in the community agreed it should do so outright. Luckily, DE did make it so that now Slash Dash adds to the melee counter.

 

Wouldn't it be nice though if the unit collision was removed from Slash Dash? It removes the small pauses that take away from the duration of a Slash Dash due to hitting enemy units on the way. It would make it a straightforward ability that is a bit more reliable utility and mobility wise.

The community wanted slash dash to add to the melee counter  because they felt it was a useless skill. They do not realize how powerful the ability actually is. If DE ever decides to increase the melee combo meter duration (which they should cause honestly it is way to short atm) then everyone will see how op the surging dash augment can make slash dash.

 

As far as removing the collision: I'd rather see that put into an augment skill. If the collision is not there then it becomes more difficult to aim your slash dash's for melee play. Currently you can cast the skill and go straight into a group of enemies; the collision prevents you from going past them all the time which allows you to unleash your mayhem on them right away. However creating an augment to remove the collision would benefit the gun play styles better since you do not need to stop on enemies.

[Fionntan]

Oh no you're quite fine. I've not used Total Eclipse as an example as I haven't used it myself, nor have others commented on it. I advocated for our powers to have scale ability through CC/Utility, but not be given this scale ability in an augment, but rather built into the power. Augments, in my opinion, should add something to a power that it does not need to scale. They should act as interesting additions to powers that give them another dimension, rather than give them traits that make them usable for all ladders of content.

 

Right, so essentially want augment as a whole to spice up the use of said power rather than depend on mod scaling. But at the same time not be available it all content? Let me flesh out over my previous post:

 

Reason being I bring Total Eclipse is due to bonus 540% Strength buff it promotes when buff. Granted it has extremely small range and works when staying on the light part of the map. If turned into passive to "compliment" with Eclipse's ability there's going to be uproar of how OP it is... due to fact strength affects weapons & abilities iirc. even with said downsides....

 

Then there mods like Despoil.... which turning Desecrate into Health usage permanently and not everyone will dig into the idea.

 

I can see this idea, however, work out for mods like Frenzy Fire, Pilfering Swarm, etc... abilities that work for CC/Utility and doesn't have backlash of overpowers w/o mod restriction nor changes drastically to shun play preference of others. So those are safe to mesh with warframe abilities.

 

In short, I understand wanting all augments mods to turn into passives (right o.o?) but only select few are safe votes for meshing in my view. Some are better off staying as mods while others I can see work out well like examples you set in first post. Unless they are tweaked in some form... this might be tricky to implement if done on all mods instead of selected few and keep both option viable.

 

After all, warframe about picking a certain play style and be able change on the fly with said mods while at the same time keeping it from being game breaking. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Fionntan

[AlphaHorseman]

I'm not so sure about it.

 

Some augments are just too much, if you remove the opportunity cost of losing a mod... Particularly Mirage's.

i could definitely see though a specialised augment slot, maybe something you can only add if the frame is potatoed and formaed at least once by spending a forma, that can be used for an augment. SOmething like an aura slot that costs capacity instead of giving it.

 

You could still put augments in the normal 8 slots (so you could theoretically have more than one) but that slot would be reserved for augments and augments alone.

On the issue of augment slots, I'm of the camp that proposes 4 augment slots. Each slot can only apply to one power, to ensure it's balanced. Also, just like regular mods, adding in these augments will still cost players mod points. Thus, if players wish to use these augments, they will have to work for them and formae their frames to make them fit into whatever build they have at hand.

 

The community wanted slash dash to add to the melee counter  because they felt it was a useless skill. They do not realize how powerful the ability actually is. If DE ever decides to increase the melee combo meter duration (which they should cause honestly it is way to short atm) then everyone will see how op the surging dash augment can make slash dash.

 

As far as removing the collision: I'd rather see that put into an augment skill. If the collision is not there then it becomes more difficult to aim your slash dash's for melee play. Currently you can cast the skill and go straight into a group of enemies; the collision prevents you from going past them all the time which allows you to unleash your mayhem on them right away. However creating an augment to remove the collision would benefit the gun play styles better since you do not need to stop on enemies.

I would hope also that the melee counter is increased, it seems short when you're moving between mobs.

 

I see what you mean with the collision, in some cases it helps as you're placed within an enemy mob and can execute the rest of the enemy units from there.

 

Right, so essentially want augment as a whole to spice up the use of said power rather than depend on mod scaling. But at the same time not be available it all content? Let me flesh out over my previous post:

 

Reason being I bring Total Eclipse is due to bonus 540% Strength buff it promotes when buff. Granted it has extremely small range and works when staying on the light part of the map. If turned into passive to "compliment" with Eclipse's ability there's going to be uproar of how OP it is... due to fact strength affects weapons & abilities iirc. even with said downsides....

 

Then there mods like Despoil.... which turning Desecrate into Health usage permanently and not everyone will dig into the idea.

 

I can see this idea, however, work out for mods like Frenzy Fire, Pilfering Swarm, etc... abilities that work for CC/Utility and doesn't have backlash of overpowers w/o mod restriction nor changes drastically to shun play preference of others. So those are safe to mesh with warframe abilities.

 

In short, I understand wanting all augments mods to turn into passives (right o.o?) but only select few are safe votes for meshing in my view. Some are better off staying as mods while others I can see work out well like examples you set in first post. Unless they are tweaked in some form... this might be tricky to implement if done on all mods instead of selected few and keep both option viable.

 

After all, warframe about picking a certain play style and be able change on the fly with said mods while at the same time keeping it from being game breaking. 

Ah I see what you mean.

 

To clarify, I am not suggesting that these augments be built into the abilities, just that augments do not be the source of a powers scale ability. Powers, by themselves, should be able to scale throughout content by means of CC/Utility. I brought up some augments into the discussion that some players feel should have been built into the power, but I am not advocating for all augments to be built into their powers.

 

I am happy that augments have been added, but I do not like that they patch up some powers to make them scale able. Making all augments innate into powers was never my intention. My intention is to ensure that a power is scale able without the need of an augment.

[Fionntan]

On the issue of augment slots, I'm of the camp that proposes 4 augment slots. Each slot can only apply to one power, to ensure it's balanced. Also, just like regular mods, adding in these augments will still cost players mod points. Thus, if players wish to use these augments, they will have to work for them and formae their frames to make them fit into whatever build they have at hand.

 

I would hope also that the melee counter is increased, it seems short when you're moving between mobs.

 

I see what you mean with the collision, in some cases it helps as you're placed within an enemy mob and can execute the rest of the enemy units from there.

 

Ah I see what you mean.

 

To clarify, I am not suggesting that these augments be built into the abilities, just that augments do not be the source of a powers scale ability. Powers, by themselves, should be able to scale throughout content by means of CC/Utility. I brought up some augments into the discussion that some players feel should have been built into the power, but I am not advocating for all augments to be built into their powers.

 

I am happy that augments have been added, but I do not like that they patch up some powers to make them scale able. Making all augments innate into powers was never my intention. My intention is to ensure that a power is scale able without the need of an augment.

 

Ah relief, thanks for clarifying +1

 

On related note I wish you luck on this discussion and one day is seen by a Dev or DE staff. :)

[-ER-Nosferatuu]

I always thought this, well put OP.

 

maybe DE will read this post and make some changes

[AlphaHorseman]

Ah relief, thanks for clarifying +1

 

On related note I wish you luck on this discussion and one day is seen by a Dev or DE staff. :)

Thanks! I do hope this is something they consider readable, at the very least, and hopefully something useful for retuning powers.

 

I always thought this, well put OP.

 

maybe DE will read this post and make some changes

For the sake of each WarFrames scale ability and power diversity, I hope so as well.

[Xardis]

TLDR but i agree, augments should buff not fix. And its not limited to warframe powers, its to the weapons as well.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Xardis

[AlphaHorseman]

TLDR but i agree, augments should buff not fix. And its not limited to warframe powers, its to the weapons as well.

I've not actually looked at the weapon augments, but I can understand some of the gripes players have with them, if they're similar to some of the powers augments.

 

My hope is that DE sees this thread and makes all WarFrame powers scale able, without the need of an augment. And for the augments, make them useful tools to have on hand, but not necessary to ensure that a power within a WarFrames kit is viable throughout content. Allow them to add something to a power that makes the power a more interesting, or apply an interesting mechanic, a new dimension to a power, but not be the defining factor that makes that power worthwhile to use throughout content. By extension, this could apply to the weapon augments as well, if this is also the case with some of those types of augments.

[AlphaHorseman]

Edited Title, as I feel it fits the contents of this thread more, and in light of recent changes.