Progression 2.0, A Complete Rework Of The Presentation Of Warframe (Update 1/27)

[Kn0xxPT]

delete this one please.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Kn0xxPT

[Kn0xxPT]

You bring up an interesting point, in this post I tried to correlate Difficulty an Power as much as possible, but there is one thing I left out.... Warframe hp. Sure, you are gaining damage as you progress, but you yourself are not able to endure the increasing damage the enemy is turning out. In some ways this is good, as it makes the game get progressively harder as you go on, but it also makes the style of play vastly different from low and high levels. So... in that sense, maybe giving a basic tree for upgrading warframes with your Progression Rank could be useful, keep health mod stuff, but allow players to increase Warframe base stats with a "skill tree" of sorts.

So, maybe for every Progression Rank you can upgrade your Warframe 5 Health, 5 shield, or 5 armor (and have these stats effect your base Warframe stats so they ARE effected by mods)

I would think that, due to how multi-layered the progression is, that this would still be able to differentiate Warframe enough from the skill tree pack, but I really hope Warframe never goes too mainstream with a skill tree based progression.

Yes, mainstream skill tree can be very "boring" system. But now, if you think of it, Having warframe stats on a User Side and not on Wframe, it leaves you with more room for DPS, Utility mods and Double-Stats mods, new mods lategame setups, always on User Side. The way I'm seeing it, its like, "The best Attack is Defence" kinda thing. Having more sustained surviving tools, will let keep on action more time.

 

In my experience of MMO's stat skill tree, there is always a big diference in  Tier 1 weapon on a Level 10 Character and a level 40 character, is always about much more base damage.

There is a hole in this kind of system...People will try to have another account just to get other type of stat skill build. There are few more issues I can think off, anyway.

[DrBorris]

Yes, mainstream skill tree can be very "boring" system. But now, if you think of it, Having warframe stats on a User Side and not on Wframe, it leaves you with more room for DPS, Utility mods and Double-Stats mods, new mods lategame setups, always on User Side. The way I'm seeing it, its like, "The best Attack is Defence" kinda thing. Having more sustained surviving tools, will let keep on action more time.

 

In my experience of MMO's stat skill tree, there is always a big diference in  Tier 1 weapon on a Level 10 Character and a level 40 character, is always about much more base damage.

There is a hole in this kind of system...People will try to have another account just to get other type of stat skill build. There are few more issues I can think off, anyway.

I would think that the skill tree would be able to be altered at any time AND be specific to each Warframe. Warframe is all about making a myriad of ways to combat the exact same challenge, that should not be lost. Here is another wild hair idea, what if Fusin cores were incorporated into the skill tree? Maybe in a similar-ish way to Warframe's old skill tree in that you use Fusion Cores to upgrade stats, and the amount of fusion cores you can use is dependent on your current Progression rank.

 

And the whole overclock/underclock thing could work in an interesting way with that. I talked about how weapons could overclock/underclock, but what about Warframes? Maybe this is the final solution for damage abilities falling off in high levels... just make the damage of your Warframe scale with your Progression Rank (along with the health stat boosts).

Edited August 22, 2015 by DrBorris

[Davoodoo]

Ill tell you why de rellies so much on scaling.

Because it requires no additional work.

You already got algorithm which decides spawns, you simply apply it to new mission, change few variables and you are ready to go, 5min tops.

 

So why exactly would de get to work and hire more manpower if community doesnt at any point demand it.

[DrBorris]

Ill tell you why de rellies so much on scaling.

Because it requires no additional work.

You already got algorithm which decides spawns, you simply apply it to new mission, change few variables and you are ready to go, 5min tops.

 

So why exactly would de get to work and hire more manpower if community doesnt at any point demand it.

Now that sure is pessimistic :(

So then, why don't we, as a community, look at the big picture to see the true issues with Warframe rather than just bicker abut the flavors of the month? You are right, no one is demanding it, all we really demand are buffs and nerfs, maybe if we want some true change we should change that tune.

[--Q--uaint]

I've been watching this topic for a while, but I don't think I've posted...

 

Maybe this is the final solution for damage abilities falling off in high levels... just make the damage of your Warframe scale with your Progression Rank (along with the health stat boosts).

 

Actually, the best way IMO would be to make powers deal part of their damage as a percent of the enemy's health.

So if an ability deals 300 damage now, maybe make it deal 150 damage + 7% of the enemy's health. This percentage would scale normally with power strength. (so a maxed power strength build would deal around 400/20%)

This would fix Press4toWin, to an extent, since the damage numbers wouldn't be as high on the lower level enemies... but it would also make frames like Ember and Saryn more relevant at high levels since they could be ripping big chunks out of elite enemies' health with their abilities.

 

 

On a related note, I think a similar system would be desirable for melee; if I do a full combo on some enemy with my melee weapon, the enemy I was hitting shouldn't just laugh the damage off and oneshot me because there was a break in the stagger.

Certainly that would require a lot of balancing to get right, but so does flat damage.

[Nako-Chan]

+1 OP

 

You pretty much summed up everything I could of hoped for so I don't have anything to add really. I fall on the "+Damage mods must die" on the Difficulty vs Power spectrum. Anyway, have this.

 

[Ezariel]

[Archwing]

 

Problem with archwing is, this is completly different game mode. Now it looks like this:

 

Warframe                                                                     Archwing

 

Should looks like this:

 

Warwing

 

What i mean? I mean, there is no way to convince players enjoy archwing, without make a lot of new missions combined this wo differet play modes. Archwing and Warframe.

 

Examples?

 

Mission start: Warframe mode

 

1. Players must shut down X terminals for some reason

 

After that:

 

2 Using Archwing must go (fly) to other section of this facility. This should be a dynamic. No endless, open space, but something like in 2D space shooter. You know? Go straight ahead, dodge obstacles (meteors, space junk, lasers, defend sytem fire etc)

 

In other section:

 

3. Do something different, for example, def terminals, destroy reactor etc.

 

After that, use archwing again or something...

 

This game modes can be combined in other way. 2 sqads. One using archwing must intercept, or def positions, when second squad must do something using Warframes...

 

But, this is very important, this game don't need next rework for missions. This game a need a new misssions, new content to play. Constantly reworking old content is a playability killing. Game need evolution.

[DrBorris]

-snip-

That was referred to in the OP, but it was the very last section so I can understand you not seeing it.

 

Archwing… EVERYWHERE

Archwing is not in a great place at the moment. This is not really due to the mechanics itself, but more the missions (or lack thereof). Some could say that we just need to make more archwing missions, maybe make acquiring weapons less painful, or some other simple solutions. But that will solve nothing (but those are all welcome/necessary changes). One of the best parts about Warframe is how everything is one jumbled up mess (in the best way possible). In order for Archwing to survive it must become part of this mess, Archwing MUST be an integral part of Warframe in order to survive.

Those that do not like Archwing, suck it up. DE is planning on keeping Archwing, and no matter how hard you naysay, it is here to stay and will continue to grow in pertinence. Based on that poll thread “Do you like Archwing?” it seemed that an overwhelming majority do, and most of those who don’t do not like it “yet.” The following is that “yet” that we are all waiting for.

The solution is simple in concept, but more difficult in DE’s execution.

 

All missions are Archwing missions.

 

“Whoa, whoa” you may say, but this is NEEDED. Okay, ever mission may not have an Archwing component, but every one after the Asteroid Belt quest has a hefty chance to. More details you ask?

This can be explained relatively easily through examples. Basically, any mission you participate in has a chance of Archwing elements being thrown in.

 

• Another ship has just flown in, get to that ship and exterminate its crew also.
• (insert enemy faction) have called in other ships to prevent your extraction (insert I’m a stealth ship line), you need to get to a less active area.
• (insert enemy faction) know you are coming and are defending all deployment sites, you will have to find your own way in.
• This ship is about to blow, you have to get yourself out of this one buddy.
• The (insert enemy faction) are staging an assault (on some colony), get to that ship and destroy its core (or deception) to prevent this (maybe have multiple ships you have to jump to, like you single handedly destroy an entire fleet).
• Sorry, this is the wrong ship, the (objective) is on the other ship, find your own way over there.
• You know those destructible windows in the Corpus cruiser? What if you got sucked out of them if you broke them, then had to put your Archwing on and fight your way back to the ship.
• I think you get the idea. I will add any more suggestion you guys come up with for this.

These could either be random occurrences, or I guess DE could prescribe what happens on each node because… well… people whine. Something is needed to break up the combat of Warframe, and Archwings could be perfect.

For clarification, the majority of time spent in mission would still be on foot, but the Archwing elements will still play a vital role in the mission. Hmm, maybe there could be a scale of archwing versus on foot combat. Maybe some missions could be transferred into having more archwing, less foot. Just something to break up the star chart and make the multitude of nodes per planet more differentiated.

 

Now I know there are going to be a bunch of people that say Archwing=/=Warframe and that they do not belong together. This is a point I will greatly disagree with. Warframe is about killing stuff and being bad @$$ while doing it. The beauty of Archwing is how it contrasts the rest of the combat, yet retains many of the same characteristics of on-foot combat. There will always be naysayers that want Archwing gone, but a line must be drawn between what a portion of the community wants and what is best for the game. DE is trying to, in a sense, create the Simpsons of games. Warframe will never die, it will continue for many years and evolve as time continues. Over that time, other science fiction shooters will rise and fall and to keep Warframe from dying it needs something… different. Yes, Warframe is extremely different for man games, the Warframes themselves and hugely large selection of weapons separate Warframe from the pack, but at some point those qualities are just toppings to a third person science fiction shooter. The thing that brings people back to a game after years are playing are the mechanics, not the toppings. This is why parkour is also something that needs to be looked at. DE was working on Archwing for a year before we even knew about it. It is obviously something that is meant to stay and to be a major part of Warframe.

 

Archwing mechanics are much better than people give them credit for, it is the deplorable game modes that cloud any good that there is to Archwing. And now that we have Sharkwing it will be pretty easy for DE to make crossover missions everywhere. Well, except that Procedural Generation would need a rework, but that is another thread.

[Ezariel]

Yeah, I didn't read your post. :P

[BeWhatIAm]

I was gonna post something about conclave ratings, and making them more visual and more accurately reflecting one's current load out.  So it would be easier to see how well someone is equipped for the mission.

 

That is an awesome conclave solution to make it more meaning full. 

 

so I'll just post here 

 

Because this has that and so much, so much more... 

[--Q--uaint]

I was gonna post something about conclave ratings, and making them more visual and more accurately reflecting one's current load out.  So it would be easier to see how well someone is equipped for the mission.

 

I don't think you actually proposed a system there, but I think it'd be reasonable to make conclave for each piece of equipment be <base for item>*<mods> rather than <base>+<mods> like it is now.

 

It should also probably just count <warframe>+<sentinel stuff>+<highest conclave weapon> rather than adding all your weapons together, which is really abusable for conclave-limited missions.

[DrBorris]

I don't think you actually proposed a system there, but I think it'd be reasonable to make conclave for each piece of equipment be <base for item>*<mods> rather than <base>+<mods> like it is now.

 

It should also probably just count <warframe>+<sentinel stuff>+<highest conclave weapon> rather than adding all your weapons together, which is really abusable for conclave-limited missions.

That section on Conclave in a way is one of the most important sections in the entire post. There are other ways to integrate progression, more story and a better difficulty scaling, but without a proper way to calculate how powerful a weapon is there will NEVER be a balanced fight in warframe. A good Conclave rating system could be the solution to invulnerability phase bosses and the over-use of small weak spots. If there was a number that represented how powerful your weapons were EXACTLY, then DE could correlate scaling to make a meaningful boss fight without relying on cheap mechanics.

​

[--Q--uaint]

That section on Conclave in a way is one of the most important sections in the entire post. There are other ways to integrate progression, more story and a better difficulty scaling, but without a proper way to calculate how powerful a weapon is there will NEVER be a balanced fight in warframe. A good Conclave rating system could be the solution to invulnerability phase bosses and the over-use of small weak spots. If there was a number that represented how powerful your weapons were EXACTLY, then DE could correlate scaling to make a meaningful boss fight without relying on cheap mechanics.​

 

I had forgotten that you had addressed that. It's a long post lol.... One thing you've not really accounted (that I saw in my brief reread) for is how different mods affect different weapons to different degrees.

Putting a slash mod on Dread should increase conclave rating by more than putting the same mod on Paris Prime.