Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[shoryukensama]

easier fix for DE. change rhino codex entry XD . end of discussion.

[Holeypaladin]

You didnt consider armor at all

 

Or that mesa has to be in the shade which limits her ability to avoid taking damage

 

Or that he cant be stunned at all for the entire duration of iron skin

 

And how is unrakned iron skin even relevant?

I did consider armor.  Did you not read what I said?  "And then for damage on health... he might die around the same time as Mirage/Mesa from health damage, because his armor would help him keep up a bit better." -Me

A 60% armor reduction essentially increases the effective DR on health damage from 85% to 93%.  Which is still less than the 95% from eclipse/shatter shield.  But Rhino has more health than Mirage (since she's meant to be a glass cannon) but less than Mesa (who can survive a longer time outright than Rhino with this iron skin buff so long as she's not trying to tank eviscerators or melee units).

 

 

easier fix for DE. change rhino codex entry XD . end of discussion.

Easier fix: Buff iron skin.  Also ends discussion.  And makes people who used to like him like him once again.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Azawarau]

 

Anyone else get this feeling?

Not entirely accurate but still funny

 

+1

 

I did consider armor.  Did you not read what I said?  "And then for damage on health... he might die around the same time as Mirage/Mesa from health damage, because his armor would help him keep up a bit better." -Me

A 60% armor reduction essentially increases the effective DR on health damage from 85% to 93%.  Which is still less than the 95% from eclipse/shatter shield.  But Rhino has more health than Mirage (since she's meant to be a glass cannon) but less than Mesa (who can survive a longer time outright than Rhino with this iron skin buff so long as she's not trying to tank eviscerators or melee units).

 

 

Easier fix: Buff iron skin.  Also ends discussion.  And makes people who used to like him like him once again.

You didnt consider it

 

Idk how DR and armor work together but i can tell you that a 60% DR under an 85% DR is alot more than youre crediting it for considering the many factors and advantages rhino has

[sanj66]

>amazing CC

>decent survivability

>great buffs

>decent mobility

 

Rhino is a support frame.

 

Also, the Codex says he's the "heaviest Warframe, combining offensive and defensive abilities". Players are the people who call him a tank.

as pointed out its not players....his intro video did reference him to tanking/being a tank, it was pointed out on a previous topic.

[Feallike]

..... -.- Wow... Just wow.. I choose not to insult you in any way other then to say NO, your idea will not be implemented and please don't ask for any idea as OP as this.

 

Valkyr has no Area of effects or nukes so that's why she has her invulnerability

 

Mirage is the most vulnerable frame in the game, that's why she has that 90% damage immunity skill

 

Loki is very squishy and has no nuke which is why he has invisibility.

 

 

Edit: Here's what Rhino has: A VERY GOOD DAMAGE BUFF THAT CAN BE APPLIED TO THE WHOLE TEAM. A ability that Damages, AND STUNS enemies for a decent amount of time, A ability to make a shield for yourself which has its own HP, and the most balanced stats in the game.....

 

Their, is, no, reason, for, rhino, to, get, a, buff. /thread.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Feallike

[sanj66]

His entire argument has been because i say so, because rhino isnt a tank, or because another frame has ore armor

 

Those arent real reasons

 

Rhino is a tank in the sense that hes tougher than most frames and offers team support

 

Theres nothing wrong with the roles of tanks being divided between multiple frames

 

This guy really just wants to push cliches all over and i seriously dont know why youre giving him an ounce of support

 

And dont say you arent.

its not because i say so per say, it is because non tank units out tank the tank and you cannot put that aside as if it is nothing, if anything it shows your bias that you either love or prefer these frames and jsut dont want rhino to be better at tanking that them. being the tank doesn mean you are tougher than most, it means you should be tougher than all especially a support caster and a berserker. the roles of tanks were already split, a purely defensive tank in frost and a versatile aggressive tank in rhino, do not try to include valkyr as a tank as she is a berserker type and trinity is a support caster, mesa is a damage type as is mirage, these units are not tanks.

[fatpig84]

its not because i say so per say, it is because non tank units out tank the tank and you cannot put that aside as if it is nothing, if anything it shows your bias that you either love or prefer these frames and jsut dont want rhino to be better at tanking that them. being the tank doesn mean you are tougher than most, it means you should be tougher than all especially a support caster and a berserker. the roles of tanks were already split, a purely defensive tank in frost and a versatile aggressive tank in rhino, do not try to include valkyr as a tank as she is a berserker type and trinity is a support caster, mesa is a damage type as is mirage, these units are not tanks.

 

Simply put.

Any more straight buff changes to Iron Skin will make Rhino even more OP.

Period. 

 

Unless DE give it a major weakness or DE "fixes" the rest of Rhino's kit to compensate.

And we know how good DE is at "fixing" frame's kit.

 

 

Would you be happy if Rhino gets flat 95% DR with duration, no weaksauce weakness against melee, splash or grenades whatever. But you move 30% to 40% slower and get full room aggro ? 

 

I think not.

Edited January 17, 2015 by fatpig84

[Feallike]

its not because i say so per say, it is because non tank units out tank the tank and you cannot put that aside as if it is nothing, if anything it shows your bias that you either love or prefer these frames and jsut dont want rhino to be better at tanking that them. being the tank doesn mean you are tougher than most, it means you should be tougher than all especially a support caster and a berserker. the roles of tanks were already split, a purely defensive tank in frost and a versatile aggressive tank in rhino, do not try to include valkyr as a tank as she is a berserker type and trinity is a support caster, mesa is a damage type as is mirage, these units are not tanks.

 

You don't understand what a beserker is... 

 

 

Beserker: Someone or something that becomes inraged and ignores all damage to oneself to exact a offensive outburst toward a target.

 

So Valkyr is PERFECTLY made. She has the most armor in the game to IGNORE damage, she has a invulnerability move to IGNORE damage, she has warcry which buffs her armor to IGNORE damage. She has ripline to get closer to a target to ATTACK the target. She has paralize for... idk why. I think the DE just ran out of ideas.

 

 

Mirage is perfect as well. She is incredably glassy and can't take any damage without being hurt very badly. She has the most powerful buffs with the expense for horrible stats.

 

 

Mesa is a gunslinger. So why shouldn't he have a ok stats. Its like saying since Excalibure is a swordsman he should have S#&$ty stats. x.x 

 

Loki has invisibility for the exact same reason Mirage has 90% damage immunity IN THE DARK. So he survive lategame

 

 

 

 

Please give a valid reason to buff rhino, because all your reasons so far have been very bad.

[Holeypaladin]

Yeah more durable than most does not = tank.

 

More durable than ALL = tank.  Exceptions include other warframes that are specifically intended to be tanks (frost, arguably valkyr) which should be around equal.

 

And I was being generous with my 93% comment.  60% damage absorb means that for every 100 damage that would be taken, you instead take 40.

 

So for every 100 health damage that gets through the 85% DR, Rhino would take 40.  So say he takes 1000 damage.  150 of it gets through the iron skin (1-.85, or 15% of 1000).  60 of it gets through his armor (1-.6, or 40% of 150).

 

Now say Mirage (or Mesa) takes 1000 damage to health.  50 of it gets through her DR of 95% (1-.95, or 5% of 1000).  And then it has to contend with HER armor, while it's already lower than the 60 that gets through Rhino's armor.

 

That is how damage reduction works, mathematically.  60% of what gets through 85% does not boost 85% up to 95%.  That's why power scaling to damage reduction powers is ridiculously OP.

 

You can't argue with simple math.

 

The fact that other frames can out-tank Rhino is a 100% perfectly valid reason to make him more tanky.

 

Also, in most games, Berserkers take an armor PENALTY when they berserk because they don't try to defend against enemy attacks.  They can still die, and it's actually easier to kill them when they are enraged, it's just their damage output goes up too.  Usually filling them full of arrows (bullets in this case) while they rage is the best way to kill them in most games.  Ignore pain all you want, a mortal wound will still kill you.  Like shooting a zombie in the head kills it even though it doesn't feel pain.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Feallike]

Yeah more durable than most does not = tank.

 

More durable than ALL = tank.  Exceptions include other warframes that are specifically intended to be tanks (frost, arguably valkyr) which should be around equal.

 

And I was being generous with my 93% comment.  60% damage absorb means that for every 100 damage that would be taken, you instead take 40.

 

So for every 100 health damage that gets through the 85% DR, Rhino would take 40.  So say he takes 1000 damage.  150 of it gets through the iron skin (1-.85, or 15% of 1000).  60 of it gets through his armor (1-.6, or 40% of 150).

 

Now say Mirage takes 1000 damage to health.  50 of it gets through her DR of 95% (1-.95, or 5% of 1000).  And then it has to contend with HER armor, while it's already lower than the 60 that gets through Rhino's armor.

 

That is how damage reduction works, mathematically.  60% of what gets through 85% does not boost 85% up to 95%.  That's why power scaling to damage reduction powers is ridiculously OP.

 

You can't argue with simple math.

 

The fact that other frames can out-tank Rhino is a 100% perfectly valid reason to make him more tanky.

 

Again you give no reason to buff Rhino skin, you just are telling me because hes in your opinion A TANK he deserves to have the best abilities in the game. That makes no sense. 

 

Mirage needs 95% damage immunity endgame so she can survive. Rhino doesn't. So again please give a valid reason to buff Rhino skin for me to consider this a idea.

[Holeypaladin]

It's not OPINION, it's FACT as stated by DE in their videos.  Tank means more durable than ALL non-tank frames.  Especially "Glass cannon" types like Mirage.  95% is god-mode, pure and simple.  There's a difference between surviving and godmoding.  Rhino doesn't get to survive bombards to the face in endgame, so why should Mirage?

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Bobtm]

Almost unsure as to why I'm putting myself through this... eh whatever here goes.

 

There's been a lot and I do mean a lot of disagreements throughout this topic.  Some points are well made, others not so much, but one thing can be said for certain.  Holey isn't happy with the inability to facetank.  That said Rhino has too many other advantages going for him in major ways to just let him facetank.  Whether or not he was initially intended to be the "be all end all tank" frame or not is irrelevant at this stage more or less.  Trying to turn him into a more "proper" tank now would require a literal full rework of his entire kit in order to not end up with an OP mess of a frame.

 

So instread of continuing this clearly pointless circle let's go a different route;

 

I'll direct this towards you primarily Holey, I've got my own musings on this subject but we'll ignore that for now.  Let's go under the assumption that Rhino will not see any such changes, with this hypothetical situation in place let us instead concieve a possible new frame kit with a core focus on tanking.

 

For this situation we'll focus solely on nothing but the raw points, base stats, stats at Rank 30, rough ability functions and numbers, etc.  As this isn't some general concept type thing we'll fully ignore anything in the realm of aesthetics or design styings, right now let's focus purely on how something of this sort would potentially work out in terms of in-game playability and nothing beyond that.

 

So a shorter version;  HoleyPaladin - What would you find to be a proper tank to suit what you desire within Warframe?

[Feallike]

It's not OPINION, it's FACT as stated by DE in their videos.  Tank means more durable than ALL non-tank frames.  Especially "Glass cannon" types like Mirage.  95% is god-mode, pure and simple.  There's a difference between surviving and godmoding.  Rhino doesn't get to survive bombards to the face in endgame, so why should Mirage?

 

Just because some HUMAN made a video doesn't mean it should be taken as fact. The DE is notorious for changing their mind. That is why this game is in beta. you have forgotten this fact which is why i find your arguement to have no value.

 

Again Mirage has to stand in the DARK to get this effect. so unless your willing to camp in a corner in darkness your not even getting the 95% damage immunity. -.- You have forgotten that to.

 

 

 

You to caught up in the fact that mirage has a better tanking ability then Rhino that you have forgotten to see its limitation.

[Holeypaladin]

It's not hard to stay in the dark.  I'm assuming you're not a complete idiot and know how to use terrain to your advantage.  That's a pretty valid assumption.

 

As far as how to tank... well, you would need at the bare minimum, good shields or health (At least 250 when they're added together), good armor (190 is the minimum), and the ability to mitigate 85% or so of incoming damage (assuming the power scaling is removed from existing damage reduction powers... if not you'd need 95% to be on the same level as mirage and mesa).  In addition, you'd need some sort of taunt, and some sort of CC since CC is the only way to survive higher levels.

 

Sounds a lot like a buffed iron-skin Rhino or a buffed snow-globe frost, doesn't it?  Roar isn't specifically necessary to tank, but a 50% isn't much of a buff compared to a lot of other damage buffs (m-prime, sonar, eclipse, fireball augment, etc.)

[fatpig84]

 

Again Mirage has to stand in the DARK to get this effect. so unless your willing to camp in a corner in darkness your not even getting the 95% damage immunity. -.- You have forgotten that to.

 

There are different levels of darkness too.

The only chance in hell you get 90% to 95% DR is playing against the infested, where damage is actually more required (due to insane ancient dampening).... Lol.

 

In most void games, you will be hard press to even find spots dark enough for 70% DR or if it is void defence. 50% DR

Edited January 17, 2015 by fatpig84

[Feallike]

It's not hard to stay in the dark.  I'm assuming you're not a complete idiot and know how to use terrain to your advantage.  That's a pretty valid assumption.

 

As far as how to tank... well, you would need at the bare minimum, good shields or health (At least 250 when they're added together), good armor (190 is the minimum), and the ability to mitigate 85% or so of incoming damage (assuming the power scaling is removed from existing damage reduction powers... if not you'd need 95% to be on the same level as mirage and mesa).  In addition, you'd need some sort of taunt, and some sort of CC since CC is the only way to survive higher levels.

 

Sounds a lot like a buffed iron-skin Rhino or a buffed snow-globe frost, doesn't it?  Roar isn't specifically necessary to tank, but a 50% isn't much of a buff compared to a lot of other damage buffs (m-prime, sonar, eclipse, fireball augment, etc.)

 

This will be my last post and i want people to not comment on this thread anymore because it doesn't need to be bumped anymore, Rhino will not be nerfed (what your suggesting would nerf rhino) so that is /thread and end of discussion. (its against the rules for a OP to bump his own thread without a reason)

 

 

Your still basically turning the JACK OF ALL TRADES frame into a tank. he was never suppose to be a tank, the video made about him was made when he was the ONLY tanky frame. So that's why your mistaken.

 

So no he is not a tank frame, he is a ballanced frame. He is very tanky and tanky enough for midgame. Though endgame is based around CC not defense.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Feallike

[Darthaxe]

Honestly if people want to learn "tanking" and "evasion" well.

The first step is to throw them into a frame without great survivability skills. no strong defensive stats or weak sauce CC.

:Like Nekros or Ember etc.

 

If you can shine in those, you will get those "skills" ingrained to you.

Then suddenly you remember Rhino Prime seems a lot tankier than you remember.

 

Hue.

Actually I played Valkyr with 8/10 vit and I feel like I die faster than I would have liked. So when I got my Vauban even though you may think I would die even easier relying on my Hysteria and high armor...For some reason however he was so much more of a tank than I could ever have with Valk. Never went back to Valk yet because I have been getting new frames to like Limbo. It really just depends on how you play I have always preferred rushing in and killing everything. Even with squishy frames I can still do so I just think like in this quote OP should play a squishy frame and try to play Rhino again and see how well it is after playing a different frame. Mix it up a little :P

 

also have 8/10 steel fiber 

Edited January 17, 2015 by Darthaxe

[Bobtm]

It's not hard to stay in the dark.  I'm assuming you're not a complete idiot and know how to use terrain to your advantage.  That's a pretty valid assumption.

 

As far as how to tank... well, you would need at the bare minimum, good shields or health (At least 250 when they're added together), good armor (190 is the minimum), and the ability to mitigate 85% or so of incoming damage (assuming the power scaling is removed from existing damage reduction powers... if not you'd need 95% to be on the same level as mirage and mesa).  In addition, you'd need some sort of taunt, and some sort of CC since CC is the only way to survive higher levels.

 

Sounds a lot like a buffed iron-skin Rhino or a buffed snow-globe frost, doesn't it?  Roar isn't specifically necessary to tank, but a 50% isn't much of a buff compared to a lot of other damage buffs (m-prime, sonar, eclipse, fireball augment, etc.)

 

For the love of... look, I'm trying to level with you and attempt to further this discussion beyond frivilous and wholely irrelevant arguements.  So please don't just hop back onto the silliness train.

 

Rhino has a lot of powerful traits, this is why he doesn't get to be immune to everything forever.  Additionally there's a funny thing I'd like to pick out here as it's near priceless.

 

"In addition, you'd need some sorf of taunt, and some sort of CC since CC is the only way to survive higher levels."

 

Funny how you're so deadlocked onto the idea of facetanking when we all know it doesn't actually work in the endgame.  Beyond that you too also know it doesn't work in endgame.  The subtext here;  Facetanking doesn't work in Warframe.

 

Think about this for a moment here, nearly a year ago or so we went through a big overhaul as to how enemy levels work.  With this change we saw another thing come to change, enemies lost a lot of their defensive traits but gained much greater offensive ones to compensate.  Basically this is the nail in the coffin for how direct defensive traits work out.  This game just isn't built around the more standard defensive styles, the only time resistances are considered "high enough" is when they're upwards of 85% if you'd ask a majority of endgame players...

 

Taking only 15% of damage is a pretty steep thing, yet that's what's "expected as necessary" if you're looking at standard or straightforward defenses.

 

This is sort of my last chance shot here, I'm not going back into a circular and pointless arguement.  Everyone knows Rhino will not get this sort of unnecessary buff.

[Holeypaladin]

Calling Rhino a "jack of all trades" and saying he was never intended to tank is entirely 100% subjective opinion which goes AGAINST the stated intentions of the frame in both the codex and official video.  The fact that he has morphed into this sort of "jack of all trades which means he sucks at everything equally" type thing is proof that he has been abandoned and neglected and needs to be returned to his primary role.

 

It is necessary to improve iron skin signficantly if Rhino is going to be the tank frame he was primarily intended to be.  He was never meant to be any sort of "jack of all trades" frames... his base stats clearly say "tank, tank, more tank, not a caster, definitely a tank".  It's his abilities that are broken and don't scale well enough into high level content to let him keep tanking.  Mainly iron skin is the broken worthless ability at high levels... roar and stomp are alright, but they don't let him tank.

 

The reason he only ever had one tank power is because he only ever NEEDED one tank power until it became irrelevant due to increased enemy damage.

[fatpig84]

Actually I played Valkyr with 8/10 vit and I feel like I die faster than I would have liked. So when I got my Vauban even though you may think I would die even easier relying on my Hysteria and high armor...For some reason however he was so much more of a tank than I could ever have with Valk. Never went back to Valk yet because I have been getting new frames to like Limbo. It really just depends on how you play I have always preferred rushing in and killing everything. Even with squishy frames I can still do so I just think like in this quote OP should play a squishy frame and try to play Rhino again and see how well it is after playing a different frame. Mix it up a little :P

 

also have 8/10 steel fiber 

 

Valkyr requires a different mind set of game play rather than for most normal frames (IE including Rhino).

Her main 2 styles of play is Hysteria fit or WC LS fit.

 

The main issue of not using Hysteria for Valkyr is that you MUST have life strike.

And you must have a way to close the distance if you don't want to rely on Hysteria to shrug it off for you.

So that is why people normally choose Valkyr as a press 4 frame.

Then woe to be them when a Nullifier appears.

 

 

Of course then there are arses like me who only use Valkyr as a Sniper or gunner.

Ripline to a high spot and watch enemy bullets ping off my 2.7k armor war cry buffed Valkyr while I leisurely gun them down.

Then life strike the stragglers. 

[Ronyn]

This will be my last post and i want people to not comment on this thread anymore because it doesn't need to be bumped anymore, Rhino will not be nerfed (what your suggesting would nerf rhino) so that is /thread and end of discussion. (its against the rules for a OP to bump his own thread without a reason)

 

Your still basically turning the JACK OF ALL TRADES frame into a tank. he was never suppose to be a tank, the video made about him was made when he was the ONLY tanky frame. So that's why your mistaken.

 

So no he is not a tank frame, he is a ballanced frame. He is very tanky and tanky enough for midgame. Though endgame is based around CC not defense.

Wait..what?

You acknowledge that Rhino was called a tank by DE, you acknowledge that he was the tank of the game initially. 

But also say he was never meant to be a tank....That doesn't make sense. It contradicts itself. 

You say that the Op is trying to turn a jack of all trades into a tank....ok..

but more accurately he is trying to turn what use to be the tank frame, that has become the jack of all trades frame, back into the tank frame.

You know not everyone likes the idea of endgame being all about CC. Many folks think that needs to be adjusted to make sure that all roles remain viable at that point.

 

 

There's been a lot and I do mean a lot of disagreements throughout this topic.  Some points are well made, others not so much, but one thing can be said for certain.  Holey isn't happy with the inability to facetank.  That said Rhino has too many other advantages going for him in major ways to just let him facetank.  Whether or not he was initially intended to be the "be all end all tank" frame or not is irrelevant at this stage more or less.  Trying to turn him into a more "proper" tank now would require a literal full rework of his entire kit in order to not end up with an OP mess of a frame.

IMO All Rhino needs to be a true tank again without being too strong is a smart rework to iron skin.

 

For the love of... look, I'm trying to level with you and attempt to further this discussion beyond frivilous and wholely irrelevant arguements.  So please don't just hop back onto the silliness train.

 

Rhino has a lot of powerful traits, this is why he doesn't get to be immune to everything forever.  Additionally there's a funny thing I'd like to pick out here as it's near priceless.

 

"In addition, you'd need some sorf of taunt, and some sort of CC since CC is the only way to survive higher levels."

 

Funny how you're so deadlocked onto the idea of facetanking when we all know it doesn't actually work in the endgame.  Beyond that you too also know it doesn't work in endgame.  The subtext here;  Facetanking doesn't work in Warframe.

 

Think about this for a moment here, nearly a year ago or so we went through a big overhaul as to how enemy levels work.  With this change we saw another thing come to change, enemies lost a lot of their defensive traits but gained much greater offensive ones to compensate.  Basically this is the nail in the coffin for how direct defensive traits work out.  This game just isn't built around the more standard defensive styles, the only time resistances are considered "high enough" is when they're upwards of 85% if you'd ask a majority of endgame players...

 

Taking only 15% of damage is a pretty steep thing, yet that's what's "expected as necessary" if you're looking at standard or straightforward defenses.

 

This is sort of my last chance shot here, I'm not going back into a circular and pointless arguement.  Everyone knows Rhino will not get this sort of unnecessary buff.

So what you're saying is that the game got changed to where the old levels of player defense became no longer good enough to facetank....

But it's somehow illogical for someone to expect the original tank frame to be modified so he can keep up with the new enemy damage values?

 

What "everyone knows" is nothing. We all have preferences, opinions, assessments and predictions.

But DE does what they do. Sometimes stuff we see coming, sometimes stuff we don't see coming.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Bobtm]

 So what you're saying is that the game got changed to where the old levels of player defense became no longer good enough to facetank....

But it's somehow illogical for someone to expect the original tank frame to be modified so he can keep up with the new enemy damage values?

 

The underlying issue is the literal removal of failure.  Part of games is the ability to fail at a given task, of course the rate of potential failure will vary from game to game.  The proverbial monkey wrench is the way in which Warframe is currently balanced.  Basically our guns do 99% of killing while our frames generally account for CC and other such shennanigans.

 

Slapping a ludicrous degree of damage reduction onto a frame (which is the only way a frame can facetank in an offensively skewed game) ends up creating a massive issue in that it prevents the player from ever dying.  The ability to facetank in a game such as this is identical to literal invulnerability unless some sort of drawback occurs to counter such a strong stalwart defense.

 

This is exactly why I and most others in this thread are vehemently opposed to the idea of just "buffing Rhino to facetank levels"  Because it will undoubtetly break everything in regards to balance even moreso.

 

I've repeatedly tried saying what is an effective sort of compromise;  Having a new frame created around the ideology of tanking.  This would basically serve to A)  Not ruin Rhino without a valid reason to ruin Rhino,  B)  Allow a proper tank style frame to potentially be created.

 

However to get that sort of super silly defensive power, something literally has to give in order to not make said frame brokenly overpowered.  Surviving in outlandish situations isn't something with a cheap price tag that you can just slap on anything and assume it is perfectly fine.  The only way for Rhino to become a tank is to change Rhino into notRhino.

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

 

It's not just players. The official video also calls Rhino a tank. 

 

Not just because he says so but because that is his understanding what DE described his role was.

It's fine to disagree with him but there is no need to act like he is just making it up out of nowhere.

 

 

Op's wants are sort of rough..not ideal...heh

But the point is that there are already some pretty clear examples of fleshed out roles in warframe.

Rhino can be a true tank without it having to go to the extreme of invincibility...

Rhino can draw aggro with iron skin without it having to lead to the extreme of the whole standing in one spot style of tanking found in mmorpg's.

 

Yeah and Volt is an alternative to gunplay... if you consider that this discription is two years old and I bet they haven't changed it yet,...

 

The only fleshed out role I can think of is Trinity. And that can be because they thought they just needed a medic theme.

 

Like I said waay earlier, if OP wants that, DE will have to balance out the rest of Rhino's skill kit.

Or essentially nerf Rhino just to buff 1 skill.

 

And I don't like traditional RPG roles in Warframe.

Or DE doesn't have to do that. xD

 

its not because i say so per say, it is because non tank units out tank the tank and you cannot put that aside as if it is nothing, if anything it shows your bias that you either love or prefer these frames and jsut dont want rhino to be better at tanking that them. being the tank doesn mean you are tougher than most, it means you should be tougher than all especially a support caster and a berserker. the roles of tanks were already split, a purely defensive tank in frost and a versatile aggressive tank in rhino, do not try to include valkyr as a tank as she is a berserker type and trinity is a support caster, mesa is a damage type as is mirage, these units are not tanks.

 

1. They outtank under special conditions. Not per se. You guys are still ignoring that Mirage has conditions that are more tied to RNG than actual knowing where to move, because the envirenment only gives hints about light at best.

 

2. Valkyr's invincibility is limiting her to melee. Warcry still doesn't protect her from CC, nor can she facetank at later levels.

 

3. Mesa is arguably an example, but at late T4 you can't really facetank with her either. And still CC/Procs screws her up.

 

4. FACETANK means you are standing before your enemies without cover and lots of damage are still lots of damage even if you reduce it. You still get procs.

-------------------

 

This is leading nowhere. This is not a surprise since arguments are spiraling for like 20 pages.

Edited January 17, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Ronyn]

The underlying issue is the literal removal of failure.  Part of games is the ability to fail at a given task, of course the rate of potential failure will vary from game to game.  The proverbial monkey wrench is the way in which Warframe is currently balanced.  Basically our guns do 99% of killing while our frames generally account for CC and other such shennanigans.

 

Slapping a ludicrous degree of damage reduction onto a frame (which is the only way a frame can facetank in an offensively skewed game) ends up creating a massive issue in that it prevents the player from ever dying.  The ability to facetank in a game such as this is identical to literal invulnerability unless some sort of drawback occurs to counter such a strong stalwart defense.

 

This is exactly why I and most others in this thread are vehemently opposed to the idea of just "buffing Rhino to facetank levels"  Because it will undoubtetly break everything in regards to balance even moreso.

 

I've repeatedly tried saying what is an effective sort of compromise;  Having a new frame created around the ideology of tanking.  This would basically serve to A)  Not ruin Rhino without a valid reason to ruin Rhino,  B)  Allow a proper tank style frame to potentially be created.

 

However to get that sort of super silly defensive power, something literally has to give in order to not make said frame brokenly overpowered.  Surviving in outlandish situations isn't something with a cheap price tag that you can just slap on anything and assume it is perfectly fine.  The only way for Rhino to become a tank is to change Rhino into notRhino.

I hear you but I feel like things have gotten off track here.

The primary problem you speak of is important=if he is sturdy enough to facetank what is the drawback and the potential for failure.

I don't believe that has lead us to a binary "remake/ruin rhino OR make a new tank frame" situation.

I'd say the main component here is finding the right rework for iron skin...

Something that offers the needed defenses but requires the right skills, timing and actions to make function.

Now I'm not saying that is particularly easy. I do think it can be done though.

 

Unfortunately this thread started off on a bad foot and has only become more controversial and divided as it went along.

So I'm thinking this just isn't the place to figure this issue out.

 

 

Yeah and Volt is an alternative to gunplay... if you consider that this discription is two years old and I bet they haven't changed it yet,...

Oh yes some descriptions are off. (technically I've played volt with pure melee and tons of spells)

But what is your point exactly?

That we should entirely ignore the flavor texts and videos because they might be off?

If we do that how do we decided what each frame is meant to be?

By whatever each person happens to want a frame to be?

In which case who decided what is the right or wrong direction for tweaks and reworks? 

 

In my view the flavor texts and videos aren't perfect but they are still the closest thing we have to an official statement of DE's intended design. Also, it helps to take into account everything that the flavor texts and videos say to get a sense of what they are after....one line out of context may be wild or exaggerated. But taken as a whole things are usually clear enough.

 

 

The only fleshed out role I can think of is Trinity. And that can be because they thought they just needed a medic theme.

There are way more than that. But one wont see them if they expect everything to fit within the trinity or whatever....

 

 

2. Valkyr's invincibility is limiting her to melee. Warcry still doesn't protect her from CC, nor can she facetank at later levels.

Invincibility means she can facetank at any level that isn't ludicrous.

I'm not championing invincibility...I'm just being real about what it does.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Mak_Gohae]

its not because i say so per say, it is because non tank units out tank the tank and you cannot put that aside as if it is nothing, if anything it shows your bias that you either love or prefer these frames and jsut dont want rhino to be better at tanking that them. being the tank doesn mean you are tougher than most, it means you should be tougher than all especially a support caster and a berserker. the roles of tanks were already split, a purely defensive tank in frost and a versatile aggressive tank in rhino, do not try to include valkyr as a tank as she is a berserker type and trinity is a support caster, mesa is a damage type as is mirage, these units are not tanks.

 

Rhino has never been a tank.

Rhino was born to be a CCer but when mods came into play  people ended up building around 1 power. Rhino ended up being just IS because you could make that sucker last long and the cost was cheap. Specially if you added energy mods to the mix. 

People turned him into a tank because of what they could make him do.