Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Cynaris]

Face tanking is a thing, though.

 

Just not a Rhino thing anymore.

 

Valkyr, Mirage, and Mesa all face tank better than Rhino.  And Rhino is supposed to be the face tank frame... hence why iron skin used to be complete invulnerability.

 

Just because you don't like to face tank doesn't mean there shouldn't be a frame for people who do.  Heck, there are already several.  Rhino makes the most logical sense to be at the top of the face tanking frames, but he isn't.

 

Have you even READ the codex entry for Rhino Prime?  It goes on and on about how good he's supposed to be at face tanking.  He's totally meant to be the face tank frame.  But he isn't, because people keep complaining about how OP iron skin face tanking used to be, but no one seems to complain at all when face tanking powers are given to Valkyr and Mirage.

Do you ever post a comment where you don't act like Mesa is the god of all things?

 

Mesa is NOT a tank. Having a percentage reduction from bullets does not make her a tank, for crying out loud.

 

Plus if you invest in duration to make the shield last long, you just rendered her useless in most other ways.

[Holeypaladin]

For not being a tank, she's still much better at it than Rhino is.  Except against infected.  So what does that say about Rhino?

[Tostov]

Other frames can.  Very easily.  Just not Rhino.

 

Which is a complete violation of his codex entry.  "Heavy" in military terms means "Armored to the teeth and virtually impossible to destroy", but his base armor is lower than Valkyr, and he's easier to destroy than at least four other frames.

Look, I'm talking enemies literally splattering anything that isn't invulnerable. 2k damage (I.e. Sniper enemies at about lvl 45) is an instant down/dead for anyone that isn't Sayrn, Valkyr or Rhino.

Also, one, Tenno aren't exacly a formal millitary, two, that is a gigantic exaggeration of the term "Heavy". If we follow that logic, you shouldn't be able to carve through 3 or 4 "heavy gunners" at once, since they're "Armored to the teeth and virtually impossible to destroy", and therefore they should kill you.

Rhino is a caster tank, iron skin is his tankyness, hence why he doesn't get defender armor level.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Tostov

[Holeypaladin]

Iron skin is pretty crappy tankiness, probably the worst tanky spell in the game against enemies above level 30.

 

And actually, when you're low level, those heavy gunners really are virtually impossible to kill with your unranked weapons.  The heavy gunners, bombards, anything that Lotus says "Warning: heavy unit approaching" are in fact the hardest things in the game to kill besides bosses.  So they fit the description of "heavy", being the toughest units from their factions.  Plus, their armor rating starts at Valkyr level and only goes up as they level up, so they fit the heavy armor description too.

 

I'm not asking for invulnerability, if you read my initial proposal.  75% is hardly invulnerable, it's just the same thing that Mirage has.  But damage reduction scales to high levels way better than a weak shield that goes down in one hit on Pluto.  And if any other frame in the game has a better damage reduction skill than iron skin, Rhino is violating his description of "Heaviest frame" because of haters who don't want to see a heavy warframe.

[sanj66]

Look, I'm talking enemies literally splattering anything that isn't invulnerable. 2k damage (I.e. Sniper enemies at about lvl 45) is an instant down/dead for anyone that isn't Sayrn, Valkyr or Rhino.

Also, one, Tenno aren't exacly a formal millitary, two, that is a gigantic exaggeration of the term "Heavy". If we follow that logic, you shouldn't be able to carve through 3 or 4 "heavy gunners" at once, since they're "Armored to the teeth and virtually impossible to destroy", and therefore they should kill you.

Rhino is a caster tank, iron skin is his tankyness, hence why he doesn't get defender armor level.

its not just the codex entry i believe another player showed on an earlier thread that in the rhino video they did refer to him as a tank. the issue you all dont get is why are non tank classes able to out tank a tank, on the mesa issue, she is not a tank she is a damage dealer, but with most of the opponents in the game being gun type mobs her skill does make her able to tank damage easily, valkyr is a berserker, people keep getting the idea that berserkers need to be heavily armored to deal damage, actually it was the opposite to deal damage at high rates aka to go berserk you need ot be lighter, less armored and more agile, but if we go along the typical mmo style yea zerks are armored but guess what? they arent as armored as a tank unit. look at trinity a support caster and she can out tank a rhino easily, sure the cc immunity is pretty good but when is gets dropped in 1 shot at round 1 in a t4 i by a level 35 bombard which is within the levels of balance there is an issue especially when numerous frames that are not tanks have defensive skills that can outdo this. sure they dont have the kd immunity but their overall survivability is higher which is the thing in question.

i can tell you this from seeing it, his cc is ok, as it has the power in effect mechanic while other frames do not, however this has happened before  i have seen it where someone casts stomp to rev a team mate and then get swarmed and downed by new opponents who werent in the radius. hell even limbo has better immunity that rhino and he is a pure caster. the issue is why are non tank units able to out tank the tank in game, it does not make any sense, and this is the thing to call for nerfs to these frames may drop their survivability down too much and may make them less playable or desired so the only other option would be to rework or buff iron skin, i honestly do not mind it be a damage mitigation % based on the ability rank and affected by power strength, it scales better, plus you do still take damage and at higher levels you would need to think and avoid hits and move around, but make it his number 3 or even leave it at 2 but increase the cost. this also helps with the power struggle of a corrupted build, you have strength for mitigation%. duration for the skill, but then you would have to balance efficiency and also modding for duration outside of primed continuity which we dont know when or if it will show back up, using narrowminded you would need to balance your range, and such.

[Tostov]

-snip-

Look, in order to give a bit of information: I hold pretty much a completely different opinion on iron skin to you. So, in as few words as possible.

If Iron skin changed into a damage resist skill, I would drop rhino immediately for other 'tanky' frames. Because screw damage resist. Current iron skin that isn't based on duration is hugely beneficial to his current skillset, and I'd hate to see it changed to some crappy migitation skill, when well used, it is literally a quick thinking mod that is hugely more efficient, and functions in reverse.

Would I like to see it scale based on rhino's armor rating? Absolutely.

[Azawarau]

My mirage solo of ODS begs to differ.  As does my taking bombard hits to the face in T4 missions and ignoring them.

 

Armor as a stat is pretty worthless unless you have over 600, being able to take high damage is completely dependent on damage reduction abilities, which Rhino lacks at high levels.

 

When all you have to do is stay in the shadows and be invincible as a certain frame, that's really not much of a complicated thought process, so why should Rhino Prime be any different?

Her Dr isnt reliable

 

If it makes you have to stand on certain positions or depend on luck then youre not going to have reliable enough tanking ability to survive the way actual face tanks do

[Holeypaladin]

I already dropped Rhino for other, tankier frames, the ones who out-tank the tank.  I don't see any purpose in Rhino anymore... if I want CC I'll play Nova, if I want damage buffs I'll play Nova, if I want to tank I'll play Mirage.  Since Mirage is the tankiest glass cannon I've ever seen, out-tanking everything else in the game except valkyr.

 

5 solo derelict survivals in a row without using a single revive is proof of this.

[Holeypaladin]

There are plenty of shadowy spots on all the maps.  Some more than others sure, but it is not difficult at all to remain in the shadow at all times and wait for the enemy to come to you.  Just gotta be a little more patient rather than zerging out into the light into a hail of gunfire.

 

AI is dumb, they'll come to you, so you get to pick your terrain pretty easily.  Making Mirage both the second tankiest and highest weapon damage frame at the same time.  She's a tank, for certain, and out-tanks the tank frames.

[Beetamus]

Out of curiosity, why screw damage resist?

 

Also how would you say his current iron skin is "hugely beneficial" to his current skillset? Would'nt having duration a thing make you have to choose between damage/efficiency/duration and not be good/great at all of them?

 

Iron skin scaling on his armor rating would definitely be an improvement, and it might make Ironclad Charge even remotely usable, compared to now lol

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino's armor rating is too low for armor rating scaling to really help... it still wouldn't take him anywhere near the damage resistance of Trinity, the fourth tankiest frame behind Mesa, Mirage, and Valkyr.

 

All I'm really asking for is an iron skin that works like Eclipse works on ODS levels or for clever mirages who know how to use terrain.  That's not overpowered or power creep since it already exists in the game.  It would just be giving that power to a frame where it makes more sense.  Since it wouldn't have the massive 400+% damage boost that Eclipse gets in the light, it wouldn't even be as good.

[Tostov]

 

 

5 solo derelict survivals in a row without using a single revive is proof of this.

How long? More of a curiosity thing.

 

 

Out of curiosity, why screw damage resist?

 

Also how would you say his current iron skin is "hugely beneficial" to his current skillset? Would'nt having duration a thing make you have to choose between damage/efficiency/duration and not be good/great at all of them?

 

Iron skin scaling on his armor rating would definitely be an improvement, and it might make Ironclad Charge even remotely usable, compared to now lol

 

Worth noting quickly, that you can be good at duration/damage/efficiency, since that's exactly what roar-rhino build usually entails (no range tho).

Because, I personally don't like damage resist, it doesn't solve the problem (damage), just makes it less glaring. You still eventually have to deal with the fact that you've taken damage, something you don't have to do with current iron skin. Besides, giving him damage resist literally makes it so he just has the exact same capability as mirage and mesa, which doesn't really solve the problem, since they apparently have more desirable aspects anyway.
 

 

Rhino's armor rating is too low for armor rating scaling to really help... it still wouldn't take him anywhere near the damage resistance of Trinity, the fourth tankiest frame behind Mesa, Mirage, and Valkyr.

 

All I'm really asking for is an iron skin that works like Eclipse works on ODS levels or for clever mirages who know how to use terrain.  That's not overpowered or power creep since it already exists in the game.  It would just be giving that power to a frame where it makes more sense.  Since it wouldn't have the massive 400+% damage boost that Eclipse gets in the light, it wouldn't even be as good.

 

190 armor is about 1.6 times the base HP as EHP. Considering steel fibre would add to this, you're looking at around ~2.2 times more effective iron skin with steel fibre equipped.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Tostov

[sanj66]

 

 

How long? More of a curiosity thing.

 

 

 

Worth noting quickly, that you can be good at duration/damage/efficiency, since that's exactly what roar-rhino build usually entails (no range tho).

Because, I personally don't like damage resist, it doesn't solve the problem (damage), just makes it less glaring. You still eventually have to deal with the fact that you've taken damage, something you don't have to do with current iron skin. Besides, giving him damage resist literally makes it so he just has the exact same capability as mirage and mesa, which doesn't really solve the problem, since they apparently have more desirable aspects anyway.

 

 

 

190 armor is about 1.6 times the base HP as EHP. Considering steel fibre would add to this, you're looking at around ~2.2 times more effective iron skin with steel fibre equipped.

 

he has the damage mitigation with the current effects, just not x amount of extra shielding, plus damage mitigation would be better as with current iron skin sure you get 100% damage protection, but thats for however long it lasts and how much power you got, which makes it worse in the long run. the point is to make it scale but not make it another mistake like valkyr which should be removed btw, making him take a % of damage would still keep him in check while increasing his survivability later on. also using armor scaling would just be a bandaid like what frost currently has on his globe to attempt to help it to scale.

[Taranis49]

Just saying you guys ignore that Rhino is totally immune to CC while having Iron Skin up and that's a strong aspect. Lazy facetanking is another thing.

 

 To translate that: Meaning no shield lancers scorpions, no knockdowns from heavy units, no knockback from fire eximus or Vay Hek.

And that's something Mesa/Mirage don't have.

 

Just saying. This is why Iron Skin is so favorable. Not just face tanking.

 

I covered this in my post; the immunity to CC is irrelevant when it doesn't last beyond the cast animation... which'll happen even in the areas the game is supposedly balanced around (which bare minimum, is at least 20 mins/20 waves in T4, due to the simple fact going that far is required to get certain drops).

 

Hint, it doesn't resist CC or status from any attack that depletes it, which on later planets/non-endless T4 is pretty much all of them, particularly rockets and grenades.

 

Fact remains, yeah, the frame's usable, but not in the role what it was designed to fill - again, it's not a coincidence that the first iterations of post-nerf IS had aggro draw. It was intended as a tanking ability, first and foremost.

[Azawarau]

There are plenty of shadowy spots on all the maps.  Some more than others sure, but it is not difficult at all to remain in the shadow at all times and wait for the enemy to come to you.  Just gotta be a little more patient rather than zerging out into the light into a hail of gunfire.

 

AI is dumb, they'll come to you, so you get to pick your terrain pretty easily.  Making Mirage both the second tankiest and highest weapon damage frame at the same time.  She's a tank, for certain, and out-tanks the tank frames.

Id like to see that

 

And not jsut in ODS where enemies cant attack you effectively from a distance

Edited January 12, 2015 by Azawarau

[Tostov]

he has the damage mitigation with the current effects, just not x amount of extra shielding, plus damage mitigation would be better as with current iron skin sure you get 100% damage protection, but thats for however long it lasts and how much power you got, which makes it worse in the long run. the point is to make it scale but not make it another mistake like valkyr which should be removed btw, making him take a % of damage would still keep him in check while increasing his survivability later on. also using armor scaling would just be a bandaid like what frost currently has on his globe to attempt to help it to scale.

Current effect is limited damage negation, which while acts as a form of mitigation in an overall sense, is more of well, negation in practice. Built right, Iron skin is extremely low maintenance, while providing a very significant amount of defensive power. I have no issues with iron skin's current scaling, up to 40 or more min in void/derelict survivals (pluto/ceres testing is pending, cause I'm sleepy at the moment). 

Changing it to resist means that you're now just mirage with Stomp and roar instead of discoball and clones.

[Azawarau]

I already dropped Rhino for other, tankier frames, the ones who out-tank the tank.  I don't see any purpose in Rhino anymore... if I want CC I'll play Nova, if I want damage buffs I'll play Nova, if I want to tank I'll play Mirage.  Since Mirage is the tankiest glass cannon I've ever seen, out-tanking everything else in the game except valkyr.

 

5 solo derelict survivals in a row without using a single revive is proof of this.

Try that with corpus

 then get back to me

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

There are plenty of shadowy spots on all the maps.  Some more than others sure, but it is not difficult at all to remain in the shadow at all times and wait for the enemy to come to you.  Just gotta be a little more patient rather than zerging out into the light into a hail of gunfire.

 

AI is dumb, they'll come to you, so you get to pick your terrain pretty easily.  Making Mirage both the second tankiest and highest weapon damage frame at the same time.  She's a tank, for certain, and out-tanks the tank frames.

I've played quite a bit of T4D with her lately, and there's no shade there, unless you hide in some room enemies come from which is pointless since they will destroy pod in no time.

Also I don't think there's much shade in general in the Void missions (Derelict doesn't count) I don't think you can call somebody who relies on certain condition a tank, or you might as well call Volt a tank because he can sit in a corner with a shield or two and wait for all the enemies to come to him.

[Holeypaladin]

Void defense don't really need to tank, since the enemies attack the bubble. But other void missions have plenty of shade... a couple particular rooms have shade around all the edges, and it's a good spot to camp out for survival and stuff because you can simply run along the edges and tank everything thrown at you.

 

The fact that she can easily out-tank the tanks makes her a tank.  That's just simple logic.  Unless the tank frames have abilities that work all the time reliably and aren't depleted in one hit, they're not tanks.  So the closest things to tanks are frames like Trinity and Mirage.

[Holeypaladin]

Corpus no problem.... stay out of the negators, and in the shade, and it's the same effect.  Same in void and Grineer missions.  Corpus don't even have bombards.

 

Rhino is not and will never be Mirage.  Mirage's selling point is that she has the absolute highest weapon damage of any frame in the game.... mirror images, plus the other side of eclipse, make her the highest damage dealing unit in existence, which Rhino can never match.

 

Making Rhino's iron skin like the dark side of eclipse would simply make him a full-time tank, nothing more.  He wouldn't infringe on Mirage's territory in any way.  He'll never have the incredible weapon damage of mirror image and light side eclipse.  He'd simply be a better tank and usable as a tank.

 

When a bombard can blast you with his rocket and knock down your iron skin in one hit, CC immunity doesn't apply, so iron skin is still pretty useless against bombards.  The only way iron skin would be useful in late-game content is if it scales as well as eclipse, trinity, etc.

 

Rhino frame should never be considered anything less than the best tank.  That's his primary role, after all.  Everything else he has is mediocre at best.  And iron skin is his tank ability, so it needs to be useful as a tank ability.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[TheOniStixx]

I can't find anything wrong with the way Iron Skin works overall. It is a ability that you use before getting into combat and is easily modded to increase effectiveness. Making it duration based turns it into a reaction ability that you use in the middle of the battle makes you have to mod for more things and lowers his effectiveness overall.

 

The issue that's most prevalent is that on high-level missions is that Iron Skin does not last long in late game, and most Rhino players can agree on this. The problem shouldn't be solved by making it work like Shatter Shield or Eclipse, because it changes the way you play and build Rhino.

 

The thing I think they should do is keep it the way they have it, but add a damage reduction to the armor and not Rhino. What I mean is the when you use Iron Skin there is, for example, a 50% damage reduction done to the armor. This would reduce damage done to the armor, keeps the mechanics mostly the same, and make it viable in late game.

 

The way they would figure out the damage reduction percentage would be either a flat rate based on ability level, like 0/20/40/60% damage reduction, or make it based on Power Strength.

 

The point of this is to keep Iron Skin virtually the same but still make it viable for late game.

Edited January 12, 2015 by TheOniStixx

[Holeypaladin]

Iron skin is not viable at all in the late game unless it has similar resistance to the other tanky powers like eclipse and shatter shield.  Those scale up to a whopping 95%.

 

So if Iron Skin is given a base damage reduction modifier based on armor, a maxed steel fiber would give iron skin a damage reduction of 57%.  57% is not sufficient when compared to other damage reducing powers, so it would need to further scale to power strength to increase the damage reduction.  Or, Rhino's base armor would need to be increased to 600 like Valkyr so that steel fiber gives it an 81% reduction.  Or perhaps both.

 

What is undeniable is that iron skin is too weak in its current form to work at high levels.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[RealPandemonium]

Do you ever post a comment where you don't act like Mesa is the god of all things?

 

Mesa is NOT a tank. Having a percentage reduction from bullets does not make her a tank, for crying out loud.

 

Plus if you invest in duration to make the shield last long, you just rendered her useless in most other ways.

Well, she can shrug off all bullet damage for all of the relevant game; if you're trying to tank bullets then you have a winner.

 

Also, you can get a plentiful duration without sacrificing anything on Mesa's other abilities.

 

 

The problem here is not that Rhino's 2 is bad but that lazy percent-mitigation abilities trivialize all gameplay instead of just low level gameplay.  Iron Skin works at all levels; it's just not godmode at all levels, and that's fine and good.  Abilities that play the game for you are stupid.  OP is just a "make this game even easier" shill.

[Holeypaladin]

More of a "don't make Rhino obsolete" shill, since he's currently obsolete past level 30 enemies.  Seriously there's no point in using him at high levels, everything he can do other frames can do better.  Including tank, which he was supposed to be the best at.

[RealPandemonium]

More of a "don't make Rhino obsolete" shill, since he's currently obsolete past level 30 enemies.  Seriously there's no point in using him at high levels, everything he can do other frames can do better.  Including tank, which he was supposed to be the best at.

Nerf the stupid stuff the other frames have; Rhino is fine and better than he's ever been with Iron Shrapnel in the mix.